Predator heads

Has anyone out there put a predator headed RB engine in a stock engine bay?
I have a 63 dodge b body. Would there be enough room for the headers without
having to cut the fender wells????

Darren Tedder(DTHEMI) has one in an old B Body, believe it is a 65. Blasko has one in his Dart and Eddie Miller had one in a Duster. We had a 99 Hemi in a 68 Barracuda with inner fenders etc I see no reason a Predator cannot be done.

Yes in a B body they will work, there is not a production header for them but there is definitely enough room without cutting to make a custom set.

2 1/8" minimum tube diameter to start 2 1/4" is probably better suited.

In an A body... unless you are a contortionist there isn't room without cutting.

Would love to try a mild one of these in one of my cars....Love the valve train layout on them....

The valve train is bulletproof really..

Every rocker is the same and with pushrod oiling it is almost OEM like reliability.

Thanks for the info. Those heads would be cool to try. Its a toss up between the Indy -13 and the Predators. Anyone want to chime in pros or cons of which to pick???

All I will say is, look at the flow numbers and rocker geometry of the 600-13's VS the Predators. I had some B1/MC heads on a 572 engine I had. The combo was a 16.3-1 comp., .890 I .810 E, 112 LC Duration 288-298@50*, maxed out at a true 449 I flow on a 4.500 fixture. It ran 7.50's and 60's at 172-174 MPH in 4500 actual elevation but commonly 5500-8500 Corrected and easy to tune converter and 60' wise.
My Predator headed 572 using the same block, crank, etc. had a like cam, 14.5-1 comp. In the same air, and once I started to get the combo and converter figured out (much looser) it ran mid 50's and high 40's at 175-177 MPH. I am sure many here will dispute this but, the predator stuff makes more power and is better that the B1/MC stuff. IMO and I've never done an Indy 600-13 headed engine, is the B1/MC head is better than the 600-13 based on the N/A engines I've seen running them.
The wedge head is easier to tune though as there aren't many here that know how to tune the Predator deal, so there is more trial and error. Al Alguire, Boat racer (Tony), and I am sure a few others here can help. Indy was absolutely the worst and always has been, customer service I have come across. At least with the B1 stuff there are people to ask, and Scott Koffel can give advice and does.
I would never go back to a wedge head on a Mopar though. Also, don't believe the Indy garb about 1350HP N/A. JMO

I have a couple predator motors, and workinh on a third. One in a 66 B body with factory inner fenders, and factory offset. There is more than enough room, but like someone else said custom headers. The 66 is iron block, and 3400 w driver. Runs 5.28 in the 1/8th on a single 4 na. I don't think there's a better mopar head out there save exotic stuff.

i think the "new" 600-13 will give em a run for there money...maybe even equal or better.the only plus is the pred still uses std bore spacing block.

If it was just about flow, than maybe the 600-13 would have some chance with the Predator.

It isn't just about flow.

yes i know .....i know of couple guys making some serious steam with those heads with track times to prove.so its not just about flow....

It doesn't help that the 4.800 crankshaft has to offset rods to piston pins to fit a 4.840 block either. At least that's the way I understand it. And the only head and block that work with that combo is the 600-13 and 4.840 Indy......well I'll be nice and say stuff.

i never realized it got even more complex not just the exclusive block deal.....pred looks like the smarter bet.

BAE for the win

If BAE made water stuff...

Head gasket reliability being a symmetrical port design helps on the predators too.

That was the main reason I went that way.

BAE will make u anything you want,( forged semi water block) but your going to pay$$$$$ for it

NRE(Noonan)just came out with a billet hemi water block and head combo at PRI.

A little off topic here but do any of you guys that build predator head engines have a used set to suit a wedge block for sale ?

Very tough to find used, once people run them they very seldom come off there motors in usable comdition... easier to find then new/bare

The predator made for hemi blocks is a better place to start. The wedge requires a removable plug in the intake port. Seriously limiting what you can do with the head. Also the 600 head isn't as good. A nice head for sure, but it is what it is. You can exceed indy's claims for power if you're willing to spend what it takes to do it. As soon as i can get another +.500 deck block Ill be building a 1400hp na predator.

OK how much hp are you leaving on the table using a wedge block?

Apparently a couple hundred

I would stil prefer wedge block heads as I could just rebuild my current engine to use them and probably turbo it at the same time on a leaf spring x275 car that would make enough power to be fun lol

KB should have blocks in stock shortly. Not sure about a raised deck block though but I think they'll have raised cam blocks for sure.

From my understanding KB will be making 4 blocks. Hemi std cam and raised, Wedge std cam and raised. Sounds like no plans to do anything else other than getting to work on the Gen III program.

I was just poking on the 200hp comment. Darren is correct the plug in the port will limit what could be done to the port at a cost is no object scenario. For most of us I don't think there will be a ton of difference ultimately. I believe Jason Digby's is a Wedge deal and it does ok.

Can't say exactly how much different it is between them. Just that it can't be made as thin up there, and the hole adds to destabilizing the valve train. Then having something shaped like that, and that thin threaded into the port is going to leak, and crack eventually. When you have to mow a hole all the way through, top to bottom, then plug off the top, why expose yourself to all the potential problems if you're starting from scratch? Starting with a wedge block, i'd still take the preds over the 600.

As for blocks, no one is going to do it for a while as I understand it. AJPE says they may be in the mopar block business soon, so maybe. I can take a standard deck, and plate it up, but then I'm still stuck with 48 degree lifter angles. A .5 up deck with 45 degree lifters really helps, and I don't want to do it any other way.


I thought Digby's stuff was forced induction.

When the summer is over, if blocks aren't available I may just redo the one I have as an NA. More stroke, +.03 bore, more valve, an NA cam, more compression, thinner rings with 20 pounds less tension, lighter piston, and pins, lighter rods, way way more port volume, shorter runner manifold, big bore carbs, take the nitrous taper out of the quench, correct the lifter galley oil waste, and get serious about weening it off oil. Not having to contend with the nitrous will make it reasonable to drop the pressure in half.

I've swapped my car from a 2 to a 3 speed, so the motor could stand to be more peaky now.

As Darren said, the 45 degree lifter angle is the biggest drawback to the raised cam block from KB or anyone unwilling to finish a block to suit. Offset lifter bores help too. All custom work though. I would worry too much about the wedge plugs. I've had no problems with mine, but it's not an all out Predator either.

thx for the clarification....so only one hole in one port?im trying to visualize it but not familiar with preds at all any pix?

Screw in plug in the ports over top of the valley bolt. The plug is in it when ported, so when it comes out, the bottom is shaped like the port. Making it tough to keep it that way. Each time it goes in and out it has to line back up with the port walls, and because it's not flat the threads are tough to start. All I'm really saying is, if you have a wedge block, it'll work fine, just a better place to start with a hemi block, if you're starting from zero.

sounds like a PIA...........then you have to worry about cracking, leakage and longevity.i cant win trying to upgrade from B1s i own 2 indy maxx blocks(wedge)and everywhere i turn its a dead end.staying mopar loyal is really TUFF!!

Mine are Wedge heads, and as stated I believe Jasons is as well. At any rate yes there is a plug to deal with in the port. We have not had any issues with it. They are numbered so we know where they go and have had them out a few times. You have to in order to bolt the heads on. I run 1300+ open pressure and so far so good. But not a ton of run time on it yet.

Well Al thats pretty reasurring and i thought Jasons where as well and i imagine his spex are pretty stout also so i guess time will tell.im in no rush got bigger fish to fry right now but i always keep my eyes open for deals and didnt want to regret buying the wedge version.keep us posted if any issues arise.thx

I am pretty sure that John Faraone's charger is a wedge block and he makes decent power from his street car predator combo the video below shows his engine build and his car on a hub dyno

https://youtu.be/anJ6G7aOhqI

Another forced induction motor. Any head with a decent chamber can make anything when you blow the mixture down it's throat. That's why you see 3000 pound cars with small blocks running in the threes on bicycle tires.

No one is saying you can't make power with the wedge. You'll just make more, and make it more reliably with the hemi platform.

Turbos are amazing in the power they can make. They're just not that interesting to me personally. When you can summon up another hundred hp with the turn of a screw, or a keyboard click the challenge becomes making the parts take it, not the search for power.

Working for another 5 once you've plateaued is where the interest for me begins.

turbo or NA (and it looks like he does alot of street driving)looks like its holding up so far making some serious steam but he may of had issues just makes me wonder why he started with a wedge platform.im not out to chase every drop of hp as long as i can make decent hp reliably im good.now if i had unlimited funds it would be another story LOL.

off topic how the hell does that car weight 4200lbs!!! Charga?

btw dt i appreciate your advice....have you ever played with the wedge version and seen issues?

I've never done a set of the wedge preds. I took a long look at both platforms before going hemi. I've talked to people who run the wedge stuff, and they've had issues with the plugs when you get after port volume. The ports are too small in the predator heads, and making them bigger is the best medicine. The plug makes that tough since you need enough material up there to have threads, and a way to turn the plug in. Just no way around it.

The small ports make them a low rpm head on a big inch NA motor.

I found some pictures for anyone interested.



and



Credit goes to this guy on a forum from a few years ago: Forum post

Indy fixed the cracking problem when they bought the predator heads from Steve Gill. Those are the first type run off of Deans Cuda.

The new revision that Indy sells has that problem fixed and are almost trouble free.

rednuck thx for the pix............

Efidart around what time(year)was this an issue?if im looking at an older set that are new just wondering if they would be proned to cracking?

might just look into a set no where else to go from B1s.

Glad to hear they resolved the problem. I bet that plug is fun to thread into the hole being shaped like that.the older, and more fumble fingered I get, just normal threads can be enough to contend with.

I hope the folks responsible for the new KB block will consider offering a raised cam, 45 degree lifter angle for folks wanting to go predator. Taller deck would be great too...

[quote=KOS] off topic how the hell does that car weight 4200lbs!!! Charga?




I am not sure exactly how it weighs 4200lbs maybe the ice tank etc my car (same model with 540ci wedge) is a full weight street car with a 100L fuel tank roll cage etc and I come in at 3600lbs and 3800lbs with me in it

V8 with power steering and the 770 or similar options were 3340 lbs, another 860 odd lbs is quite a bit. But I guess there is a lot of plumbing in a turbo car?

digbys is a turbo'd wedge. Its also making somewhere near or above 2500 hp according to the numbers. Theres more in it..