School me on Dry Sump set ups.

I'm thinking of stepping up to a dry sump oiling system. My car regularly pulls the front wheels & I've done a few repairs to the oil pan after the odd heavy touch down, but after my last repair I'm thinking we need to change the design. So what I want to know is, what kind of pump are you recommending, are Missile pumps any good, & some pics of your set up so I can design my upgrade ready for next season would be great.

I'll be watching this..... my other W8 mill has the pump and pan, just not sure if that's a direction I should go.

This is what you want. http://www.daileyengineering.com Sexy

Cha-chingalingading

Unless you are running Comp, Pro Stock, Pro Mod or a damn fast car that system is overkill.


Unless you have the money.

yes you are looking at 5 grand for that set up Peterson r4 pump is just as good 1700 for pump figure another 1000 for fittings and pan you are at a little over half the price of a dailys it is a sweet deal but if you aren`t a lottery winner I don`t know who can afford it lol

I've been running a dry sump on my big dyno mule for a few years now. Nothing too tricky about it, just a bunch of hoses and fittings. I use Peterson for the pump, drive and tank. You can use a stock type pan for a low dollar setup or buy a dry sump pan. I have a Kevko pan on the engine at the moment but I've used several Charlie pans also over the years.

So while we are on dry sumps, gear, or roots style?
And how many stages, 5?, 3 in pan, 1 valley?

I'm currently running a 5 stage R4 pump from Peterson. I have all four suction sections pulling from the pan.

whats the deal with running a vac on a dry sump? are the scavenge pumps also acting as a vac pump or that extra?

It is better/simpler to let the dry sump pull the vacuum. 5 stages, 4 suction in pan and 1 pressure.

Yes.. the suction/scavenge lines will pull a
vac.... also remember when you buy a pump that
1 port is the pressure port, so a 3 port has
2 suctions lines and a pressure.. I ran a 4 port
on my R3 block.. 2 in the pan and 1 in the valley..
this was a dry sump block so the valley was sealed
and had to have a line up there(unless you drilled
return areas)

So pump was running approx 1/2? engine speed? How is proper pump speed calculated , or correctly verified once operational?

Yes 50% of engine is fine.. just watch the
pressure of your system to verify... but 50%
seems to be the proper amount for pretty much
all of the engines... I borrowed a hand help
tach on the center of the pump shaft to check
mine... it was plenty close enough

Rule of thumb for dry sump pumps is to run them at 57% of crank speed. I do not know where that rule comes from but you'll hear it from multiple vendors.

Peterson offers different pump widths so you can tailor the amount of volume from the pump. For example, if you are using the pump to build vacuum in the engine then you might want to spin it faster than 57% of crank speed. In that case you might want to use a low volume pump section so you aren't sending a bunch of oil thru the relief valve.

I use the narrowest possible pump section on my R4 pump and it still builds pressure with RPM. Watch the oil pressure on this dyno run and you can see what I'm saying. This is with the dry sump system and the oil pressure builds with RPM which tells you that the oil pump is big enough and/or the pump speed to too high. In my case I don't want to reduce the pump speed since I don't want to reduce pan vacuum and the oil pressure isn't too high so I leave it where it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zTAGAy081o

andy how much does a system like yours cost

I don't really know since I didn't buy it as a package deal. The pump is probably around $1500 to $2000. The pan wasn't very much money, maybe $300 or so. The drive system costs a few hundred. I think I paid more than $1000 for the tank but you can get them much cheaper if you don't want all of the options. I added a heater and a sight gauge to mine as well as the pre-filter. I probably spent another $1500 on hoses and fittings. So maybe $5000 total if you start with nothing and buy it all brand new.

interesting reading.... I know pretty much nothing about dry sump. It just so happens that the "other" engine I picked up was pretty much complete less the tank and filtration. consider my stupid Q's nothing but "post bumps" at this point, I'm that far out of the loop. Considering it's a 9.0 deck block with no provision for standard oiling, and I have the pump and most of the plumbing and two pans, figured it would be "cost effective" to just use what I have.

I think P cleared one possibility. I have one smaller AN hose from the pump to the valley cover. "Assuming" this is for top end oil.



front line suction from front of pan, next two middle of pan, and back (smaller size) goes to valley cover



the two center plug caps (silver) were hand tight, the end, which has plugs on both in/out were tight. Also an allen plug opposite the front line from the pan.



So.... is a tank a tank? Any certain size for a drag only car?

I run a Dailey 5 stage on my R3. I have a gear pump section with lobe/rotor suction. It can pull well over 20" of vacuum, so you need an adjustable vacuum valve as well as a safety pressure valve. I too have 1 suction in the valley and 3 in the pan. Bill Dailey ask me specific questions on RPM, use, etc to determine the pump setup and speed.

I have a wet sump R3, but have my pressure feed split, one in the back, but also use the priority #1 main passage on the front of R3 blocks (on the front china rail).

I also have piston oilers installed on my block, mainly for turbo heat, but a side benefit of lubrication. The suction from the pump pulls the oil vapor from the crankcase, so the oilers help lubricate the walls.

I run a 5 stage set up and this is my third. I can tell you the quality of the pump will determine the need for a vacuum pump in addition. With the Daily stuff there was no need for a vacuum pump. It pulled 20-22" of vacuum no problem. The Moroso and Peterson stuff I have used required a vacuum pump, they were 5-8" of vacuum with nothing else. Just got off the dyno with a stock car products one and it pulled 3" wit just the oil pump, all of these were 5 stage deals. From my experience Dailey stuff is HANDS down superior to the rest. You pay for that superiority to be sure, but IMO worth the money.

Getting the oil back in a BB Mopar is the biggest hurdle. One benefit is obviously less oil in the pan and reduced windage and if there is something catastrophic happens you have less oil in the pan to begin with. I have run both GOOD wet sump systems and a dry sump in a BB and frankly not sure there is any other huge benefit from the dry sump. If you run a Dailey pump you wont need a vacuum pump, anything else IMO you will need it. The expense can get up there for sure, but figure at least $4000 and up by the time you are done using something like a Moroso, or stock car products pump. The plumbing can get expensive for sure, one thing people don't take into account.

So when is a steel pressure section a good option vs alum?

The Peterson R4 pump that I'm currently running will pull 10" of vacuum at idle. It will pull 5 or 6" o vacuum just spinning it by hand with a speed wrench. I used to run an older 3 stage setup with the old school spur gears and it would not pull any pan vacuum so it all depends on how good the suction stages are designed. I do not run a vacuum pump with my R4 setup.

I have not used a new style Peterson pump. IMO vacuum is a good thing and if you cannot get to 17-20 you need a vacuum pump..Just my .02

We have the newer style Peterson 5 stage. We only pull from the pan. Ours makes vacuum but not enough for me. We also run a Star Machine vacuum pump

hmmm, i've set my current vac pump @ 10" with my wet sump, should i be sucking more?

This article on the Hot Rod website has a lot of pictures of my dry sump setup. You just need to select the option to look at all of the pictures and then scroll thru them: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/modify-carburetor-run-oxygenated-race-gas/

My current Moroso only pulls 9" on its own so we run a vacuum pump as well. Will be replacing it with a Daily eventually. IMO 10" is not enough. We run a 4 vane and no regulator to pull 18"

thanks Al.

I'm still wondering about the Missile pump. are they still around & are they any good?

IMO not sure your reason for wanting to change but I don't think you will find any power there at all over a good wet sump system at all.

my current wet sump has had its share of knocks from some hard wheelstands. after our current season i was looking to replace it. i built the pan i'm using now & it holds 10 quarts but i was thinking if i build a new one, i might as well go dry. my line of thought was i could possibly lower the engine a little as the carbon shield really is crushed hard into the stock floor pan. i run an accumulator so dont have any oil issues but i'm always wanting to improve on my set up thats all.