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R5/P7+turbos=??????

Posted By: Devilbrad

R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/15/09 09:00 PM

OK, so I haven't posted much about my project. Its a 67 Dodge D100 getting all late model '96 C4 Corvette suspension (dont bash, it was way cheap, or I'd run Viper stuff!!). I plan on running a Viper 6 speed trans, but have yet to decide on an engine combo, but it will be turbocharged. I have a std bore 69 340 block and some Eddy Magnum heads, but I don't want to blow stuff up. So I have been considering a 48 degree, siamese R3/W head combo but I just cant ignore how "cheap" the R5/P7 stuff still is. Any thoughts on how much boost the R5/P7's can handle? I'm most concerned with head gasket sealing, not block strength. Do the R5 blocks have a good sealing surface compared to an 18 bolt R3? Perhaps an XR block would be a better choice? Thoughts or opinions? Ryan?
Posted By: The Avg. Valiant

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/15/09 09:10 PM

I heard those 6 speed trans were very hard to shift quickly. I know alot of the guys at the Viper nationals complained royally about how bad the tranny gates were.
Posted By: instigator

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/15/09 09:15 PM

From what I have read you will have to spend gobs of $$$$ for all the custom pieces that are required for the r5/p7 combo.....

The big question is how much power are you looking for.....standard r3 59 or 48 can make gobs of power when turbos are used.
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/15/09 09:15 PM

Yeah the stuff is cheap, but how much power do you really need?

Biggest disadvantage to a turbo R5 deal is the lack of deck, it's a "jug" style block with no deck.

I just had my Coronet out again this afternoon & I'm not sure I'll ever own a car without a turbo again..... they're just brutal.

If I had it to do over again I'd just do a tall deck R3, with big inches & ICH heads with a single turbo. Unless you're going heads up/class racing, you can make some pretty big power with a turbo ICH setup.
Posted By: Devilbrad

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/15/09 09:22 PM

Quote:

Yeah the stuff is cheap, but how much power do you really need?

Biggest disadvantage to a turbo R5 deal is the lack of deck, it's a "jug" style block with no deck.

I just had my Coronet out again this afternoon & I'm not sure I'll ever own a car without a turbo again..... they're just brutal.

If I had it to do over again I'd just do a tall deck R3, with big inches & ICH heads with a single turbo. Unless you're going heads up/class racing, you can make some pretty big power with a turbo ICH setup.



Thanks Ryan, thats the info I was looking for. I was actually leaning towards some twin turbos for the "cool" factor. I also wouldnt mind bragging about 4 digit hp numbers, ha ha. Time to start searching for a 48 degree R3 block.

Rendering of the truck.

Posted By: RyanJ

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/15/09 09:30 PM

a new 48* Tall R3 is as close as your nearest MP dealer....

4.185" bore, R3 Callies 4.0" Crank..... 439 inches....

Will need good rods, ie. Oliver/Dyers/Carrillo etc I'd run a 6.20"

Custom Pistons.... ~28 CC dish with a 68 CC INDY chamber would be ~9.5:1

Set of 230 CNC Oval INDY's

Solid roller in the 256 @ .050" range, .650's lift on 114ish LSA.

INDY manifold, blow though 950 C&S/ CSU/ Pro Systems

Borg Warner S480 single 80 MM..... easy 1000+ HP & very driveable/mild.
Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/15/09 09:33 PM

Ryan you had your set up dynoed yet?
Posted By: Devilbrad

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/15/09 09:34 PM

I will have to start piecing this together, LOL I do plan on running EFI though. I will contact you Ryan when I am ready for a build. Right now my priority is getting the chassis done.
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/15/09 09:51 PM

Quote:

Ryan you had your set up dynoed yet?



No, the owner of the local chassis dyno does not want to run it for safety issues. I talked to him a few weeks ago & he said he just doesnt want to do anything that makes that kind of power anymore for fear of his safety standing there next to it.

I'm probably going to take it to Kauffman motorsports later this spring to dyno it after it's painted.
Posted By: topfueldart

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/15/09 11:19 PM

Ryan,
How much power can you throw at an R3 block before your pushing its limits?
Are there tall and short deck R3's?
And whats the advantage to doing a 48* motor when your using CNC -2's? Im no expert on the 48-59 degree differences/benefits....
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/15/09 11:25 PM

Quote:

Ryan,
How much power can you throw at an R3 block before your pushing its limits?
Are there tall and short deck R3's?
And whats the advantage to doing a 48* motor when your using CNC -2's? Im no expert on the 48-59 degree differences/benefits....



With billet caps, the blocks should be unbreakable.....

Yes there are short & tall decks. The one in my car is a short deck (9.0") Tall deck is 9.56".... Then there are 9.20" blocks. All short decks are Siamese..... Tall deck & 9.20's were/are available in both siamese & non.

Only real advantage of 48* is ability to drop in roller lifters with no work to block, & then better pushrod geometry. Most people who build ICH motors use 59 blocks, I've done both.... there are advantages & disadvantages.
Posted By: McCandlessboy

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/16/09 01:02 AM

Once you own a twin turbo, you'll never want anything else. Although, I can't imagine having that type of power under an open bed.
Posted By: Dos Snails

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/16/09 02:00 AM

Well Ryan, You need to make some deck plates like they make for the open deck honda stuff. I thought about a turbo r5 block before I bought a R3 but was sacred of the open deck. The honda guys use a open deck with a turbo so it will work.
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/16/09 01:44 PM

Quote:

Well Ryan, You need to make some deck plates like they make for the open deck honda stuff. I thought about a turbo r5 block before I bought a R3 but was sacred of the open deck. The honda guys use a open deck with a turbo so it will work.



AS I said, how much power do you really need? The 59* INDY stuff will support over 1000, the W8/9 stuff like I have will support ~1600+ with enough boost....

What are you really gaining by going to the P7 on a turbo app?

Why make life complicated, build a simple LA based motor unless you are going for every single last HP for heads up etc, & in that case I still would'nt use an R5 based platform due to short deck.
Posted By: LA360

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/17/09 12:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Well Ryan, You need to make some deck plates like they make for the open deck honda stuff. I thought about a turbo r5 block before I bought a R3 but was sacred of the open deck. The honda guys use a open deck with a turbo so it will work.



AS I said, how much power do you really need? The 59* INDY stuff will support over 1000, the W8/9 stuff like I have will support ~1600+ with enough boost....

What are you really gaining by going to the P7 on a turbo app?

Why make life complicated, build a simple LA based motor unless you are going for every single last HP for heads up etc, & in that case I still would'nt use an R5 based platform due to short deck.



What's the problem with the Short Deck????

AL....
Posted By: Devilbrad

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/17/09 12:17 AM

Quote:



What's the problem with the Short Deck????

AL....



Too hard to build a big inch low compression setup for turbocharging I'll assume. Pins would be all up in the ring lands.
Posted By: mopar396

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/17/09 12:31 PM

Hi no turbos or R5/P7 but what do you think my engine what i am building??

R3 9.2" 48 degree
W8 "lemans" heads
Mopar billet crank 3.5"
Carrillo 6.2"
Ross racing 8.5:1
Steve Morris custom roller cam
Procharger F3R
C&S aerosol billet 900 tuned E-85

Posted By: LA360

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/17/09 10:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:



What's the problem with the Short Deck????

AL....



Too hard to build a big inch low compression setup for turbocharging I'll assume. Pins would be all up in the ring lands.



There has been no reference to an engine size, hence why I asked. If someone was looking at building a 400+ cube engine with Turbos I can understand the statement. If it was a 300-370 cube engine I would disagree. Boosted or not boosted, I'd want the shortest deck I could get away with.
AL...
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/17/09 11:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



What's the problem with the Short Deck????

AL....



Too hard to build a big inch low compression setup for turbocharging I'll assume. Pins would be all up in the ring lands.



There has been no reference to an engine size, hence why I asked. If someone was looking at building a 400+ cube engine with Turbos I can understand the statement. If it was a 300-370 cube engine I would disagree. Boosted or not boosted, I'd want the shortest deck I could get away with.
AL...



My motor is 3.58" stroke, & with a 9.0 Deck & a small chamber on the head, that is all the stroke I could run to keep the CR low enough for turbo. Mine's 394 inches..

If I had it to do again I'd have done a tall deck with at least 440 inches, so the motor was more responsive/had better TQ off boost down low & would'nt have to turn as much RPM. But I already had a brand new 9" R3 so... that's what I built.

That's why the large CC combustion chamber heads like an INDY have an advantage over something like my W9RP's with a 39 CC chamber... I could have ran hair more stroke if I had a bigger chamber even with the 9.0 deck.
Posted By: instigator

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/18/09 12:08 AM

So Ryan, how you like the feel of your new updated setup...been able to turn up the wick yet????

I'm finally getting my new heddars made up and hope to be up in about a month!
Posted By: Jimi_Vignogna

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/18/09 12:10 AM

i have been collecting parts(two complete engines and enough spare parts to last me 20 years!!!) to build a r5 p7 358" twin turbo combo for a 1996 dodge avenger to drive on the street. i just finally got a spot in my shop to start doing the chassi in the avenger. i cant see why it wont make an easy 1500hp on an easy tune up. and as every one knows you can never have enough horse power!!!
Posted By: dart_73_br

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/18/09 12:52 PM

Ok guys...

just for information...

How much for a combo like that !?

R3 block ? $$$
Heads for it ? $$$
Whatelse ?

Starndard SB camshaft and parts !?
Posted By: jyrki

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/18/09 01:46 PM

One turbo fan more, although a big block. We are sitll learning things and started with relatively small turbos, 68.7mm. For next summer we may try a little more A/R, currently 1.22, but propably retain the current turbos. And new headers are about ready, moving the turbos rearwards and in to "clean" air. In my opinion, you don't need big displacement, you'll only get in to a trouble with all the torque. For example in our case, we have a stock 3.75" stroke and a PTC 10" converter that stalls at around 6500 rpm. Now, the engine hasn't been really turned much above that, but we got the stall speed down some 500 rpm by using SAE 80 oil in the trans. Despite of the early tuning stage, the engine produces good power on pump gas, and has pushed the C-body in to low 8 second ET's repeatedly. There is propably still way more potential left. http://www.kuvia.1g.fi/kuvat/Tapahtumat+2008/FHRA/KamasaTools/Pit/MOP_6762.jpg
http://www.kuvia.1g.fi/kuvat/Tapahtumat+2008/FHRA/KamasaTools/Pit/MOP_6763.jpg
http://www.kuvia.1g.fi/kuvat/Tapahtumat+2008/FHRA/DefaFinals29-31.8.2008/Defa29_31_08_1477.jpg
Posted By: jvike

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/18/09 02:57 PM

Troy Trepanier/Rad Rides are building an amazing '56 Chrysler 300 with a twinturbo R5/P7 right now, it's stunning!

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=18766

http://www.radrides.com/proj.htm
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/18/09 03:47 PM

Quote:

Ok guys...

just for information...

How much for a combo like that !?

R3 block ? $$$
Heads for it ? $$$
Whatelse ?

Starndard SB camshaft and parts !?



For complete intake to pan motor with all new parts, figure $17K-$18K bare MINIMUM...

I added it up one day what it would cost if customer called & wanted me to build a duplicate of my engine it would be right at about $24,000 out the door. R3 block, billet caps, billet crank, Carrillo rods, Custom CP's, Solid roller 50MM cam, Crane Ultra Pro lifters, ATI damper, T&D rocker gear, & CNC heads, PSI springs, Ferrea Comp Plus valves, SM valve covers, MSD billet dist etc. & I could throw another $5-6K worth of stuff in there very quickly that I don't have on mine (crank trigger, external oil pump, custom oil pan etc)
Posted By: theclutcher

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/18/09 04:32 PM


My motor is 3.58" stroke, & with a 9.0 Deck & a small chamber on the head, that is all the stroke I could run to keep the CR low enough for turbo. Mine's 394 inches..

If I had it to do again I'd have done a tall deck with at least 440 inches, so the motor was more responsive/had better TQ off boost down low & would'nt have to turn as much RPM. But I already had a brand new 9" R3 so... that's what I built.

That's why the large CC combustion chamber heads like an INDY have an advantage over something like my W9RP's with a 39 CC chamber... I could have ran hair more stroke if I had a bigger chamber even with the 9.0 deck.



How much difference in torque are you talking about?

Is issue you see relative to street action or only a factor on track? Auto or manual trans?

For turbo street duty would think your combo would be more than enough with manual trans.
Posted By: RyanJ

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/18/09 04:38 PM

Quote:


My motor is 3.58" stroke, & with a 9.0 Deck & a small chamber on the head, that is all the stroke I could run to keep the CR low enough for turbo. Mine's 394 inches..

If I had it to do again I'd have done a tall deck with at least 440 inches, so the motor was more responsive/had better TQ off boost down low & would'nt have to turn as much RPM. But I already had a brand new 9" R3 so... that's what I built.

That's why the large CC combustion chamber heads like an INDY have an advantage over something like my W9RP's with a 39 CC chamber... I could have ran hair more stroke if I had a bigger chamber even with the 9.0 deck.



How much difference in torque are you talking about?

Is issue you see relative to street action or only a factor on track? Auto or manual trans?

For turbo street duty would think your combo would be more than enough with manual trans.



Street/strip car. Drag car does'nt necessarily matter, but if going for "all out" I'd still want decent amount of inches.

My car has a 727 & I could run less converter if I had more inches/stroke which would be nice for street use off boost, that's only real reason I'd do a big inch/big stroke deal if I did it again. Power up top is not an issue, that's only limited by how big of a turbo I run. I could put a 106 on it at 25+ PSI & make huge #'s if I wanted, but that would be a drag only piece.
Posted By: dart_73_br

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/18/09 05:25 PM

Quote:


For complete intake to pan motor with all new parts, figure $17K-$18K bare MINIMUM...

I added it up one day what it would cost if customer called & wanted me to build a duplicate of my engine it would be right at about $24,000 out the door.



Horsepower is $$$
Posted By: DakFink

Re: R5/P7+turbos=?????? - 02/23/09 12:36 PM

Quote:

a new 48* Tall R3 is as close as your nearest MP dealer....

Are they finally available in a reliable quantity?

I ordered one in Feb-07 by Oct-07 they still were having issues with their Small Block Mfg. They said it would be at least another six months if everything went well.

I bought Leon's 468" shortly there after and canceled my order.

The guy at Mopar Performance told me to keep an eye out for the part number to change from AC to AD or higher, then they would be available again.

I did notice that change on Summits web page but they haven't been the most reliable for info like that.

I would like to have a 48* as a back-up to my 468" and a 59* to build using my Regular W-9's for a Street Dakota.

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