Bracket of Heads-Up from a racers stand point

I see many comments that Bracket racing is boring. I ask this; If you could build/buy a racecar with-in a working mans budget which would you do. Build a nice bracket car? Or build a heads up car that you new couldn't have a chance of winning with? Running NMCA events, watching KOS, and our local Milan run what brung there is a wide disparity in ET in the heads up classes. Many times I see the #3 qualifier is .3-.5 slower or more than #1. This wouldn't work for me. I enjoy competition. I got bored with chasing only ET long ago. Don't get me wrong. I still tune and strive to get quicker. Winning at bracket racing is far from easy. I'm sure many have never even won a race. It takes tuning, driving skill, and luck. So what would you rather have? A Bracket car? Or a off pace Heads-Up car? Personally I'd love to have a competitive X275 car. I don't have the budget. I don't have the time dedicated to test and maintain it.
Doug

Heads up, even though it's a lot of work, that's what I like. Constantly striving to go faster.

I`m one of those ESPECIALLY t-stop racing crap and from a spectator's standpoint. Heads up is my favorite but even that`s predictable now and the crashes are the part of it that keeps other racers pissed in the lanes waiting for cleanup...........guess I'm just over the old RUSH that was racing...........back to playing w/poisonous snakes and desert critters to keep me sharp.........

I've always run and enjoyed brackets. I have also run with other racers in heads up style grudge races when our et's are very close. That is when it becomes a lot of fun. But running on your dial in and cutting a good light becomes very competitive itself. I ran brackets from the beginning when there were four classes: Street, Heavy, Pro and Superpro. Brackets broken into et's is very close to heads up racing at that point.

I enjoy bracket racing, a guy can do it in his daily driver if he wants. The heads up stuff is more often than not won by the guy with the deepest pockets. I did win a heads up race a month or so ago, not because I had the fastest car in my class or the deepest pockets. I won because my car made clean passes every round.

As a pump gas street/strip deal my car really doesn't fit anywhere other than brackets or a index class and index classes are nothing more than a bracket race where someone else chooses the dial. From what I've seen guys that hate bracket racing are not very good at it. I'm not good at it but have fun and that's what it's all about for me.

my working mans budget? .....or yours . So far I've kept my racing as real as I can afford. I have quite a few "good" parts, but in the realm of things, it's a very underperforming mill for what it is, but that plan came to be after discussing the build with the builder. We've put just shy of 100 passes on it this season and virtually haven't had to do anything to it. Set it, and forget it just like you want a bracket mill to be. NOW!!!! what I'd REALLY like to do is to spray the krap out of it and run in 8.5 outlaw!!

I have a fishing boat that I bought myself when I retired in 2010. If I didn't have this dog-gone habit it would have hit the water already instead of sitting in my driveway. I'm a better engine builder than I am a bracket racer because I like making changes to go faster. With my Head-up car I will be an "also-ran" probably because I won't pay others to do my work. BUT the success I do have will warm my belly knowing my hard work paid off.

I would do a heads up car, a x275 car for sure. But that's not in the budget, so I like index classes next as they don't allow delay boxes or air shifters. Makes you race the car yourself.

I bracket race my head up car .
Around here there just isn't much heads up stuff.
But it is starting to show up more so that's a plus .
I,m the slow guy in KOS LOL

The challenge is the point of racing for me.

Bettering myself is the fun no interest wasting time running a number for me.

Racing is not meant to be fair we cant all win....... The racing that is being watched and sensationalized is heads up as it should be.

Were our legends like Garlits bracket racing?

All this fair racing is ruining it. Maybe a match race class where you work your way to the top would work still have some close racing and incentive to try to move up necessity breeds invention Just saying......................

The Dads heads up series at Quaker City Ohio has a great program and some terrific sponsors. From street cars to 4 second cars they are heading in the right direction

https://www.facebook.com/groups/10387964...479699725976152


2017 DADS Streetcar Shootout Rules an Classes
2017 HEADS UP RACING SERIES
June 10th, July 15th, Aug 12th, Sept 9th, Oct 7th
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OUTLAW LIMITED STREET CLASS
BIG TIRE OUTLAW CLASS
STREET LEGAL CLASS
TRUE STREET CLASS
ALL CLASSES: If a car does not meet the spirit of the class it may not be allowed to run.
　
Mandatory all Classes:
D.A.D.S. OLD FASHIONED DRAG RACING STICKER. Must be displayed on a car window in order to race with DADS, win any money, certificates, or prizes. We will provide you with 1 sticker, if you take it off or need a replacement you will have to purchase the additional sticker.
Before you go to Safety Tech : You are required to sign in at the “DADS Race Booth” each time. You need to provide your name, address, phone number. Please provide the car number you wish to use for the entire season and it must be clearly legible on your windows. If the track can not read your number in the tower, your run will not count. You must take the DADS Card and your car to Tech each and every race.
All vehicles must comply to IHRA/NHRA safety equipment and license for ET’s and speed being run.
You must have an Engine Diaper or catch pan in Street Legal, Big Tire Outlaw, and Outlaw Limited Street !!
You must make at least one good qualifying pass to race. Breaking the beam is considered a run.
Get to the staging lanes as promptly as you can when your class is called, the track will not wait on or make exceptions for anyone.
Test and tune will not be allowed prior to qualifications. Test and tune will be allowed with track permission after eliminated from competition.
Revised 10/20/2016
***********************************************************************
DADS OUTLAW LIMITED STREET:
BODY :
All entries must have a factory based production type vehicle. Must be street appearing, have stock appearing dash . Wheelbase must be within 2” of factory dimension . Factory Firewall in stock location. One piece front ends permitted provided it retains stock appearance. Fiberglass/carbon fiber body parts are limited to hood, fenders, doors, deck lid, roof skin & bumpers. No Fiberglass /Composite bodies. Any changes or alterations in body lines or dimensions MUST BE APPROVED prior to modification.
FRONT SUSPENSION:
Back half type cars only. Double round tube frame rails from firewall forward prohibited. NO CHASSIS TYPE CARS.
Stock front frame rails and suspension required Front frame rails to be original OEM type & must be fully intact from the firewall forward out past the far most lower control arm mount. Slight notching allowed for header clearance. Header must pass through this area. Aftermarket Bolt in Sub-frames an K-frames allowed. Factory front frame must be connected to Sub-frame or k-member or lower suspension component by bolting and/or stitch welds , no solid welding.
Lower control arms MUST bolt to the factory mounting points on the front section of frame. Any type spring shock combo allowed.
-Rack and pinion steering allowed.
REAR SUSPENSION :
Any type rear suspension is allowed.
TIRES:
Any slick tire or pro bracket radial up to 30” x 10.5” sidewall designation allowed, W tires OK. DOT tires, drag radials or pro radials up to 12.50” or 325 sidewall designation allowed.
ENGINE :
Any engine combination allowed. Only one type of power adder allowed
TRANSMISSION :
Any type automatic or manual transmission is allowed.
License plate required (any plate, cosmetic only).
All cars must have Engine Diaper or catch pan.
Any 8.50 certed cars are allowed 140mph Max !
Format:
1/8 mile race
Heads Up
.4 Pro Tree -- courtesy staging mandatory -- no deep staging
All Run. Modified ladder
Bye run goes to the fastest qualifier.
Lane choice goes to the fastest previous pass.
All cars must meet IHRA/NHRA safety requirements.
Drivers must wear the safety equipment required for the ET’s being run.
Revised 3/23/2016
***********************************************************************
DADS BIG TIRE OUTLAW CLASS
Door cars only
Single power adder. No Nitromethane.
Any tire
No dragster, roadsters, altered, or center steer cars
All cars must have engine diaper or catch pan
Format:
1/8 mile race
Heads up
.4 Pro tree—courtesy staging mandatory—no deep staging
All run. Modified ladder
Bye run goes to the fastest qualifier.
Lane choice goes to the fastest previous pass
All cars must meet IHRA/NHRA safety requirements
Drivers must wear the safety equipment required for the ET’s being run
class created 10/10/16
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DADS STREET LEGAL OUTLAW:
This class is meant for registered street legal cars. When you sign in at the DADS booth, you must show registration and have street legal plates.
-STREET LEGAL TIRES MANDATORY. Drag radials /325 max and ET street /13.50 max sidewall designation are allowed.
-MUST BE COMPLETELY STREET. If your car is questioned of being actual streetable, then this class is not for you. No gutted racecars permitted to race.
Body/Interior:
-Full bodied street type car/trucks. Domestic and import allowed.
-Working headlights and taillights, this means headlights not fog lamps.
-No dragsters, roadsters, altereds, or center steer cars.
-Must be street appearing, no gutted interiors. Must have 2 front seats or 1 bench seat. Carpeted interior even if rear seat is removed. Factory dash or pre-approved dash pad required. Must have door panels.
-Racecar lettering on windows only.
-Must have stock style front suspension.
-No full round or square tube chassis cars. Can not be certified past /faster than 8.50
Exhaust must go past Firewall with mufflers
Electronics:
-No bracket racing aids, no throttle stops (electric or pneumatic), no optical sensors.
-No delay boxes permitted for starting line procedures or other driver aided electronics. The
application or use of any device, mechanical or electronic, that permit the driver to ascertain the position of their vehicle in relationship to the starting line is prohibited.
-Progressive nitrous controller system is allowed.
-No electric or air shifters permitted.
-All Street cars must have a working Altenator.
License plate required
All cars must meet the IHRA/NHRA safety requirements.
Drivers must wear the safety equipment required for the ET’s being run.
All cars must have an Engine Diaper or catch pan.
Format:
¼ mile race
Heads Up .400 Pro Tree -- courtesy staging mandatory -- no deep staging.
All run. Modified ladder
Bye run goes to the fastest qualifier.
Lane choice goes to the fastest previous pass.
Be prepared to run round robin.
Revised 3/23/2016
*****************************************************************
DADS TRUE STREET:
This class is meant for registered street legal cars. When you sign in at the DADS booth, you must show proof of registration, have street legal plates, and proof of insurance.
MUST BE COMPLETELY STREET. If your car is questioned of being actual streetable, then this class is not for you.
Factory Stock Chassis, UNALTERED ! No gutted racecars allowed.
Full interior. Factory glass.
Stock wheel tubs.
Full exhaust past seats. Diesel powered vehicles must have exhaust pointed up.
True radial tire or biased tire. No drag racing compound tire.
Roll bar allowed 6 or 8 point only, no windshield or pillar down bars allowed.
Reference to, 2008 or newer foreign or domestic, production type automobile or truck that is street driven with proof of registration, vehicle insurance with valid license plates. These vehicles are limited to street events, test & tune and select import events. Competition in the facilities normal weekly ET bracket series under these parameters is prohibited.
These vehicles may run provided all of the criteria listed within this section is verified prior to participation. Unaltered 2008 OEM model year and newer production cars running slower than 10.00 and 135 mph do not have to meet the requirements and specifications for the Summit Sportsman ET safety rules except for the following: Convertibles and T-top entries must meet the minimum specifications listed in ET Bracket section for roll bar and roll cage requirement. Vehicles must pass all state highway safety requirements in which the vehicle is registered prior to acceptance.
The vehicles OEM installed anti lock brakes, airbag function and seat belts as well as any other related system must be functional as per the manufacturers specifications at all times. All drivers must utilize helmet and protective clothing requirements as per the minimum specifications outlined in the 2016 IHRA rulebook under the ET bracket section starting on page 60.
Format:
¼ mile race
Heads Up
.4 Pro Tree--courtesy staging mandatory--no deep staging
All run. Modified ladder
Bye run goes to the fasted qualifier.
Lane choice goes to the fastest previous pass.
Be prepared to run round robin.
All cars must meet IHRA/NHRA safety requirements.
Drivers must wear the safety equipment
Revised10/10 /2016
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I LOVE Top Sportsman and Top Dragster. Those are the classes I would want to be in. I heard through the vine that they will be a part of EVERY National Event for 2017. Sounds good to me!

You could likely build a competitive X275 car for what you have in the NSS car

As to the other question, I would rather be a career test and tuner than a bracket racer. I used to bracket race, was good at it and have two track points championships and a bunch of wins to show for it. Got bored to tears doing it though and then just started trying to make my car go as fast as it could. Also had a stint driving a mid pack alky funny car in the IHRA. We ran good at times, went some rounds and I won one divisional race.

Now days there is a LOT more racing to do if you want to do it. Some don't care for the hype, but there is money to be made grudge racing and plenty of it to do. Easy money maker for tracks, as it doesn't cost them anything as far as purses. We were actually testing yesterday with that smallblock nitrous car I mentioned. While we were testing, that didn't stop the guys that owned the car from placing some bets and setting up races. They won 5k on two passes

Try those baby tires out and you will see its not that easy... I promise you

The last time I did the heads up thing I had to slow my car down to qualify in the index. That was the first problem. Got the car qualified right on the money. First round, got a guy that entered 3 different classes. fast, faster and fastest indexes. Didn't take me long to figure out that being able to run on your index wasn't going to cut it. Faster cars 60 foot better and also have more power to basically play with you all the way till the end of the 1/4 mile. All's he did was kept a foot on me till the end then a little less for the win. . He went on to win all 3 index's . If I had to do it over again, I would qualify the car at the slower index, return it to the normal tune and dump his butt at the end making him break out. Yes there is break outs in heads up. I myself like bracket racing, might try the index racing again as now the car runs under the faster class incex so I can play the game to.

There is no "game". You cut the better light and run the number, you win, doesn't matter what they do. You have the better light, he "fenders" you and you run the number, he will be too fast. Its that simple. 60ft, 330 none of that matters at the point

I like the fact that if you have street car as I do I can build the eng as I like and then do some bracket racing at the track and also run in NSS which is bracket racing. You can still be an et chaser if you like and I would love to chase my et more but I dont have much play money (car money. Heads up racing is very cool but its tuff for the little guy who dont have the money to build a killer combo. And at least with bracket racing it is mostly just people hitting the brakes near the finish line which most spectators dont notice. Not like a car launching and then laying over on a delay box. Ron

as i cant cut a light in bracket racing,i have to index race,which im good at,not all tracks have index,local track has index once a month,heads up is cool and a new thing,no prep lots of wrecks,if you race no prep,make sure you can get it down broadway without breaking loose,street outlaws knows how to get there stuff down broadway,i love heads up,but only will do it on a prep track and index racing

I don't consider myself a racer. I enjoy building and tuning my cars more than the racing them. I race with a car club more as a social thing. I bracket race (foot brake, no electronics) just for fun and to see what the car can do. I could see running stock/super stock for the challenge of building a fast car within the rules.
With my engineering background, I could cheat up a bracket car with undetected electronic gadgets to make the car very consistent, but to me that would not be fun, may as well just get a slot car if all I have to do as a driver is hit a button.

[quote=justinp61]I enjoy bracket racing, a guy can do it in his daily driver if he wants. The heads up stuff is more often than not won by the guy with the deepest pockets.

I heard how bracket racing/index racing was "invented" by Ron Leek directly from him this past September. He talked about how the racer count was WAY down and everyone that showed up at his race was running to see who could come in second, because everybody already knew who was going to be first. That's no good for the racers or the spectators. Bracket racing/index racing fixed that.

Electronics are fowling up racing (especially Pro class) and it seems sanctioning bodies can't figure that out and give us our own class. Now its turning out who has the most electronics wins.

Heads up, sooner or later the guy with the most money wins.

IMO if you're running in an index class it isn't heads up, it's just another form of bracket racing. True heads up is you leave together and who ever gets to the stripe (no foul) first wins. Not trying to be critical, just my $.02.

Bracket Racing isn't technically "racing". It is a precision timed sport.

If I ever won the lottery, I would buy/build a SS/AH car, and have the best of both worlds. Heads up in the Shootouts, and brackets in Eliminations.

Nothing wrong with either one.

Index racing is " Heads Up". If two cars leave at the same time it's heads up...

Fixed it for you

I agree to disagree .

Index racing is just a bracket race where everyone's dial in is the same. It is not a heads up race.
Not bashing it, I enjoy it, but it isn't heads up racing.

Bracket racing is boring for spectators, but fun otherwise. I've pretty much decided to make my road runner project a bracket car and leave the cuda for test and tune night fun. Maybe an occasional street car shootout, but those are so out of hand now I may be done w/ them all together.

If you have a breakout rule, it is NOT Heads Up...

How do electronics win a race?.... provided it is not doing something to control the car. It is YOU that has to turn the button loose and it is YOU that has to drive the stripe and make the car repeat.

Well this BR thing has been a long topic of discussion for me and others on certain forums over here in UK. I’ve been trying to get some sort of affordable H-up racing going that is fair to the racers, and relies on your skill at tuning not the size of your wallet, and not just the no rules stuff that happens which is a farce with 10sec cars against 7 sec.
Racing in the UK is ALL Brackets and Index racing for sportsman racers, most here just build a car to what they want and then find a class to race it in, and of course they end up either an index or bracket class, its exciting to them I guess as there in it and doing it, as I did a long time ago.
But from a retired Drag Racer who sort of got back into it over the last 3yrs I’m now sitting in the stands and I gotta say it IS totally fall asleep time, and I know whats going on, so whats it like for the new spectator who doesn’t really get it....why did 1 car start after the other, or why did the car that crossed the line first lose, and why do a lot of cars start ok, then slow down, and pick up again?
We are obsessed with it here, for a short period we did have a Super Modified class, unfortunately when I wasn’t around, that was fair H-up racing with weight brakes and proper rules to equal the cars out, but it died as the cars got too fast for the rules.......all people keep saying is they cannot afford to go Pro-racing to run H-up.....and I keep telling them you don’t have to, but I just cannot get through to them that H-up first to cut the beam has to have some rules to equal the cars out otherwise its a waste of time, sportsman racers do not like rules here period, I’ve now given up with them and gone Pro-Mod racing with an old mate who’s got his new car out.

I think some of you guys don't really understand "electronics" racing. The electronics do nothing to help you win a race. Anyone who thinks so need to hop in and give it a try. After all it usually pays well, with more and more million dollar races why miss out..

As for the question at hand I have done both. Heads up on a working mans budget just don't happen, unless you don't mind being at the back of the pack and just sayin hey look at me I'm a heads up racer. I am sure most know I enjoy the type of racing you all hate, throttle stop stuff. Way more challenging to do well and make the car repeat. For now I have moved to the fastest form of bracket racing I can afford, top Sportsman. But hey I have electronics in the car so winning should be easy right???

To put bracket racing in to perspective, I think Slantzilla needs to chime in. Perty sure he won Pro at the MATS a few years back with a rental car. He could have made it a lot less painful for the competition if he had at least lettered the car with shoe polish.

Ditto. With 10k plus races all over now bracket racing can pay quite well.

I have been bracket racing for over twenty five years and did the try to go faster/ lower e.t.thing. When they moved Pro to 9:00 as the fastest my car ran mid 10s I got out. About 8 years ago I put a mechanical throttle stop on along with DOT front tires and Q.T.P.s on the rear I slowed the car down to run 11.50 for Street Eliminator and 11.50 index racing and am having a blast resulting in more round and eliminator wins than ever before. Index racing is fun here in the Northeast division they run index classes at some points/ open races and we got to compete at a National meet running 11.5o index which was really a ball.

Don't shoot the messenger, but I have some questions & thoughts... AND I plead COMPLETE ignorance on the subject of electronics in brackets & Super-class racing right up front.

1. Some of you mentioned big-money bracket races. Are they for electronics only, or do they have footbrake classes, too? If both, how do the turnouts compare between the two?

2. Any big-money footbrake-only races? I recall there were in the past, but don't ask me to define what "past" means since I can't remember what I had for breakfast.

3. What if there were serious MPH limits applied to the Super classes? How would the 10.90 and 9.90 classes change if the two classes were limited to 130 & 140 MPH (or even 5 MPH slower?) respectively?

4. What would happen if ALL electronics were banned? Would car counts tank simply because everyone had to go back to footbraking it? If so, why? If there's still a good paying purse, what difference does it make?

5. If electronics don't actually make the car easier to bracket race, then why should people complain if they all simply went away? Wouldn't that still maintain a level playing field, or are you concerned about the cheaters that will still find ways to build hidden electronics into their combinations?

6. Top Sportsman has a cut-off based on quickest qualifiers, right? What if -- and again w/ the no-electronics idea still in play -- ALL classes were broken out by qualifying time? The first 32 go to Class A, the second fastest 32 go to Class B, etc.? This would (or "should") keep the cars in any given class somewhere reasonably close in ETs, and reduce the concerns about a 9-sec. car racing a 14-sec. car (unless you only had those 2 cars show up).

7. Gawd, I hate watching a throttle-stop car... Oh, did I just say that? Yeah. Sorry guys, but those are total thrill-killers from a spectator standpoint.

Flame away. But I'm really curious about this stuff. I did a little bit of local heads-up DOT radial racing 15+ years ago when the cars were still running double-digit ETs, and some street car footbrake-only bracket racing, too. I like heads-up stuff better, simply because it's "pure" drag racing. But I did have fun running brackets, too, and would like to participate more regularly in the future.

At this point, it's been so long since I've done anything but test & tunes ('cuz I'm one of those people who always looks for tweaks to make the car faster) that I'm sure some people on here think my opinion doesn't matter either way. However, sometimes it takes someone who isn't buried into it up to their eyeballs to have a different -- possibly even better -- perspective on things.

It's the same old argument. Foot brakers and spectators complain that watching a car fall flat on its face running a t-stop is boring, t-stop racers don't seem to care if they drive the spectators away and tell you there aren't any in the stands any way, and that it's harder than it looks. Spectators will say they don't care or want to learn how hard it is, they came to watch a car 'explode' off the line, not leave, fart for .5 of a second and leave again. I'm surprised there's any money in it for the track operators hosting t-stop classes or events; who's watching - other t-stop racers or their crews/families? Who puts up the bulk of the purse other than the drivers themselves? T-stop racing is a lot like life - hurry up and wait...

Is it "Winter time" I thought that didn't come until mid December

When t-stop cars come to the line--I will not watch them, it turns my stomach. my opinion is that there is no way that is racing period no matter how hard it is to win.

I have lost interest in bracket in the last few years. I had conversations with fellow racers about how drag racing is a dying sport. All you see at the strips are old guys with gray hair, like myself and very few young guys.

I went down to Georgia to No Mercy 7, than I realized that drag racing is not dying. Drag racing as we know (bracket racing)is dying, but heads up drag racing is not dying , it is alive and well. It was a breath of fresh air when I saw all the young guys owning and working on race cars.

Thanks for the kind words John, but it was Street Class, it was in a 300 rental car. Still managed to hurt some feelings.

I like bracket racing because it is what I can afford. Most of the true heads-up stuff is way more than I will ever be able to afford.

I appreciate the skill it takes to run the .90 classes. I do want to try my hand at Super Street, but not sure it will ever happen.

I have a chance to buy my buddy Mike's V/SA car turnkey. It was the baddest V car in the country until Tool's Mustang showed up. Unfortunately for me, Danny is in Div. 3 too, so the chances of running him everywhere I'd go would be 100% or so.

If you truly believe that "The electronics do nothing to help you win a race" why on earth would you use them ????? Makes NO sense.......Can't imagine how you can explain that statement, but I am sure it will be entertaining.....

Do the electronics turn the button loose for you? Do they drive the finish line for you? Do they put the dial on the window for you?................

I enjoy a little bit of everything.

This was the first year I was able to have a car at the track every weekend that I wanted to. The Friday night Grudge and Test and tune were fun, but once I got the car dialed in I wanted to try other things.

Index racing is what really appeals to me. The 11.50 index fits me perfectly.

I will say our grudge nights have EXPLODED in popularity both for the spectators and racers. I still don't get the no-prep thing, though.

IMO electronics are an aid, delay boxes, adjustable trans brake buttons, air/electric shifters all help you be more consistent and that's what bracket racers look for. Anyone that says they don't help are either fooling themselves or trying to fool someone else.

To watch the throttle stop races, you need to watch at the finish line and see how the closing speeds play into it. No sense watching the starting line, they don't do any wheelies!

When they control the car. How about a soft start, back off on the timing, no tire slip, turn the power on, back to soft for the shift (program that shift time too) so no tire slip, back on the power. How about that for tuning consistency? What does the MSD Grid do? Why do people put this stuff in there if it doesn't help? Hezuss who is driving the car?

OK, ya gotta leave, EVERYTHING else is programed to INCLUDE what your ET is. How about a guy at Barona a guy running 8.04 all day and night long at 101 mph and I'm running all out at 7.35 at 95 mph. Is electronics involved with that Corvette? And that is in Pro class. This is what is fowled up, right there.
If you really think electronics doesn't matter, you just don't understand at all.

Theoretical ET's here. From a spectator aspect which is a closer race? A 9.0 vs 9.5 index/bracket race with a .5 head start. Or a heads up race where one car runs 9.0 and the other can only go 9.5? I guess the best deal would be Index without throttle stops, as almost everybody will be close to dead on and leaving together.
I agree with Al's statement [Quote}
Heads up on a working mans budget just don't happen, unless you don't mind being at the back of the pack and just sayin hey look at me I'm a heads up racer.
Doug

I think Al and Monte are just baiting people at this point. To say electronics do nothing to help you win race is ridiculous.

Electronics do not make a great driver great, they do however, make a good driver great, and an average driver good. They shrink the margin for error and make the racing closer, and tougher.

Many times I've seen great drivers return to no-e racing where their natural talents and honed skills give them a more pronounced edge against like competition.

The notion that index racing is not "Heads-up" is also ridiculous. Heads-up only refers to the tree, period. Whether you put "no-breakout" after it or not is what determines how the race is won at the stripe.

Comp Eliminator is "no-breakout" racing on a staggered tree, and no one refers to it as heads up.


I LOVE it when the OP says "From a racer's standpoint", and everyone immediately starts griping about watching the Super classes. If you want to talk about spectating, start a thread called "Racing you most like to watch!"

BradH,
It is my OPINION that going to a big money bracket race with anything less than a Pipe Rack and a full arsenal of all the latest electronics is just contributing your funds to the pot.
Ever since the "Matty box" days, and watching the lip service paid by promoters about how they check for illegal stuff(NHRA included) I have no faith in the system.

The NHRA super classes are broken, just like Pro Stock, and there are no easy ways to fix them.

One of the biggest things that no one wants to address is the .5 pro tree that Super Street uses, versus the .4 pro tree that Super Gas, Super Comp, and just about every heads-up class in the country, whether they are index or no-breakout.

You see many racers staying in Super Street and adding as much as 500lbs to their full tube cars, because they like the fact that just about any car can hit the .5 tree.
Building and maintaining a car that consistently go red on a .4 pro tree at any track is expensive and difficult. The guys who have such cars don't want to give up that advantage, and they are often the loudest voices in the room anytime the discussion comes up to move Super Gas to a .5 tree. So many cars that appear like they should be in SG, stay in SST.

MPH limits have been discussed, many times, and always seem to get shot down. Once again, only racers already active in the class are being asked the questions, so who knows what it would take to bring in new blood?

Banning Electronics from Index Classes
The biggest problem with many index classes at big races, is that you don't get enough time runs, often only two or three over a two day period, then first round is 24 hours later. There are such huge swings in weather and track conditions that trying to hit the index without electronics under those parameters is darn near impossible.
I experienced this first hand at last year's NHRA's Heritage Series race, The March Meet. I was in D-Gas, a 10.60 index class on a .4 pro tree, with no electronics. We only got 1 time run Friday morning, 1 Saturday morning, and first round was Sunday Morning. When we got up Sunday morning the weather was completely different and I knew from my SST days we were going to be a tenth or more slow, but without electronics, I had no method to adjust for that much swing. Also, out of the twenty or so cars in the class, only about three were truly equipped with the ability to hit the .4 without taking a bump, or guessing, and I couldn't help but think the class would be better served to be on the .5 SST tree.

Not baiting anybody. Buying all the latest and greatest gadgets does NOT win you any races. The driver still has to do it. Doesn't matter if the car in the other lane has every gizmo in the world. You cut a better light and run closer to your dial, you win. Is anybody arguing that point?........NO

If you think electronics give you an advantage, and make it easier, you've obviously never done it. The guy in the other lane has electronics in his car too, so how does one have an advantage? If anything it makes it harder, because packages are tighter and MOV's are razor thin, so the driver has to make decisions and act upon them in an absolute SPLIT second. Bracket / index racing is demanding of the driver, you HAVE to be on your game because the car is not going to erase your mistakes like it will in a heads up grudge race.

To me, heads up racing is more boring. You normally can see who's gonna win at 60ft. And it's usually the car with the most money thrown at it. Besides, until you're outrunning Force or Hagen, it's just another type of handicap that your working with.

Lastly, why do so many guys here seem to think that bracket racers aren't also trying to make their cars faster? I know plenty of bracket guys, and most every one of them is constantly sharpening their blade.

I am not trying to bait anyone..I just don't see having a delay box as making anyone a great racer. It allows you to not go red on a given tree without having to make changes to the car itself. I ran bottom bulb stuff when I started like most everyone else did. I did fairly well and then moved what I considered up to electronics class. Did ok for the races I went to and decided to give .90 a try. As for the throttle stop stuff, well Billy you have been there. I would rather dial my car to a given ET from round to round than try and dial in a stop. You know as well as I do that most of the Super class racers, particularly the good ones are just flat good at driving the stripe. The biggest difference between Pro and Super Pro is the MOV. You can get away with mediocre lights and MOV's in Pro way more than you can is Super Pro. The cream will always rise to the top no mater the class. I don't know of anyone who cannot find the tree with both hands bottom bulbing who suddenly become Luke Bogacki by throwing in a delay box...


As for what spectators watch, well I think many here must not go to National events much. Once the fuel circus is over the stands are EMPTY. The don't even stay around from pro stock, let alone SS Stock Comp or those dreaded Super Classes. Its all about the 300mph circus and IMO the possibility of cars hitting things, or as I like to refer to it the NASCAR affect.

In our part of the country there are "big buck" (5-12K to win) no box races. Trans brake and I believe air shift allowed. I entered twice last year footbraking. At Norwalk many were surprised when a number of cars that made it down to the final 8 each night were footbrake. Many having packages of .015 or less. Much of my racing is index over a period of days. No electronics at all, no 2 step, air shift, nothing. We have learned to deal with huge weather swings. Chances are if you're off more than .02 for very many passes you won't be setting in the winners circle. I have run the Nostagia Gas class as well. However the .400 tree is tough for me on a footbrake.
Doug

Do you want to drive a race car, or program a video game. I just want a class for those of us that want to drive the car. That's all, just that simple.

NSS racing does that for some of us. Real cars, real drivers.

I know I have said this before but I will say it again. The east coast guys have it made as we are loaded with "big dollar" races. Foot-brake, bottom bulb, top bulb races BUT you have to travel some. I don't think I will ever run points again at my local track even though I really enjoyed it because it ties you down to much. I now copy down a "master list' with all the big races on and will be hitting more of these hopefully in 2017. Being retired frees me up to make the 400-500 mile one way trips to get there.

Around here the tracks are going to two classes, box and no box, same as Pro and Super Pro. There is one track that is still running a foot brake class, no air shifters, trans brakes or two steps. It's about an hour and half away from me and I'll make the drive before I run no box at the local track that's 20 minutes away.

When My local track opened a few years ago they ran box, no box and foot brake. On average they had 35-40 cars in foot brake and 8-10 in no box. So when they decided to combine fb and nb, instead of pi$$ing off 8-10 guys and making the class fb they pi$$ed off 35-40 guys and made the class nb. One of the guys that worked at the track kept telling me how a trans brake and air/electric shifter has no advantage over foot breakers who shift their own. After hearing him repeat the statement several times I told him he was either a liar or a dumb a$$ and walked off.

As I am a top bulb racer what I really like about MOST of the big top bulb race is they keep the dragsters and door-cars separated as long as possible (usually 5-6 rounds) then they join them together. It keeps the racing closer and evens up the field some. Now some of the guys that don't bracket race will chime in and say the dragsters have no advantage but trust me they do. Having the other car in front of you the whole way down the track and in your view helps a lot.

Belong able to see the front tires in relation to the other driver is a HUGE help...

Second paragraph is sad but true. Those that leave miss some of the best racing, but they aren't real diehard drag racers / fans. Most need to go to a circus - or be in one.

I think super stock, stock, top sportsman, and big money bracket racing is cool, but chasing points at a local track just doesn't do it for me. Real snooze fest.

If you watch some of these guys drive the stripe it is amazing! I like super stockers... Big wheelies and tight races... doesn't get much better than that.

With that being said, if I had the budget/time I would be running NA 10.5 or an AH car... haha

Casey

I dont race alot but my brother does and he footbrakes in NSS and of course I footbrake when I race. To me electronics definetly help you to win by helping the car be more consisdent and cut good lights. But I agree it still takes the driver to do his or her job. I know when I line up against the other car I really dont care if they have electronics or not as I feel even with me footbraking that if I cut a good light and my car runs the number I have a good chance of winning. Thats the main thing I worry about and not if the other car has electronics. I feel electronics do help but if I can do a good driving job I still have a good chance of winning in a bracket race. And of course I am talking using a full tree and not the pro tree as on a pro tree I feel electronics help alot. Ron

Index racing is not heads up. In a heads up race, according to NHRA, "both cars leave the starting line at the same time, and the first to cross the finish line wins. Top Fuel, Funny Car, Pro Stock, Pro Stock Motorcycle, Top Alcohol Dragster, and Top Alcohol Funny Car race heads-up."

Further, they say "In Handicap racing, the object of the game is to predict how many seconds it will take your car to get to the finish line, then try to run as close to that number as possible without going quicker, or "breaking out." The driver who comes closest is the winner. Handicap racing allows cars of different speeds to race one other because the slower car gets a head start. In some categories, the driver chooses his or her own handicap, or dial-in/dial-under. These are Super Stock, Stock, E.T. bracket, and Jr. Dragster classes. In other categories, the class handicap is predetermined and may not be changed. These classes are Comp, Super Comp, Super Gas, and Super Street. In Super Comp, Super Gas, and Super Street, breakout rules apply."

http://www.nhra.com/streetlegal/dragracing101.aspx

Joel, that's the NHRA Kindergarten explanation, the fact they lumped Comp in with the Super classes throws away any shred of validity that statement may have had.



Now, let's try to work through all of Monte's posts on this thread. Is he asking baiting, rhetorical questions? He denied that accusation, so I'll take it at face value that that he wants an answer to each time he used a question mark.

First, the whole "You cut a better light and run the number, you win doesn't matter what they do" statement. Another kindergarten, "Let me dumb this down" explanation that while technically irrefutable, doesn't even begin to explain the strategy of bracket or index racing.

So, apparently, since I'm not being baited...I'll break this down into smaller bites.

"Cut A Better Light"
Sounds simple enough, but for your light to be "better" than your opponent, we must take into account this simple fact: "What is The opponents light?" Since this plays prominently into Monte's equation for winning, this means we can completely dismiss the part of his statement which says: "It Doesn't Matter What They Do"!! Sorry Monte, it absolutely matters!

If you can consistently cut .020-.040 lights foot braking, and your opponents in the Sportsman Class are throwing .080-.120 lights at you, you're a big deal, and might win a track championship! If you take those same lights and go big bucks racing against pipe racks with electronics that can consistently go .005-.015 you are going to donate your entry fee and your buy back money.

Another part of the equation is the red light penalty, it's not like you just go up there and shoot for .005 lights every time, because the red light ends your race. Many times a racer will just try harder to avoid the red than to kill the tree, figuring they can race the stripe even if they give up a little on the tree.

Monte asked, "Do the electronics turn the button loose for you?"

Yes! Absolutely YES! That is the delay box's main function. As I stated earlier, electronics make an average racer a good racer, I know this to be fact because I'm an average racer (If you looked at my stats over the last twenty years, that probably being kind). Lucky for me, drag racing is like sex: you don't have to be good at it to enjoy doing it.

My delay box has a practice tree function. When I'm three sets of cars back or so from racing, I take 3-5 hits on the practice tree and record those numbers, then compare them with the earlier pre-run hits from my time runs or earlier elimination runs. This tells me, the great crew chief exactly where me, the crappy driver is mentally, emotionally, biologically, and I can adjust the delay box to accurately PREDICT whether he is going to be slow or fast on reacting to the tree.
EXAMPLES
I found that my jumpy, emotionally charged driver was almost always .020 quicker on the tree in first rounds of divisional or National events, so once the crew chief started adding that much to the delay in those situations, the red lights went away.
Come around the corner and realize the sun is making it difficult to see the tree? You can pull delay out between the burnout box and the tree. What are you going to do in a no-box car? Take a bump, up the launch rpm? No way that can be as accurate.
Another trick the crew chief learned was this: If the driver directly in front of my driver went red, my stupid driver gets tentative on the tree, and is late. So, if I immediately throw .005 extra in the delay box and say "There, that's your red light protection", it would calm him down and he could hit the tree as previously predicted.

I've got so much more to write on this subject, but I've got to go to work...I'll leave you with this:

If you like Monte's "Cut a better light and run the number" statement, here's one about electronics racing, "If the crew chief puts the right numbers in the delay box and throttle stop, every run will be a perfect pass".

Delay boxes were invented because the average human is QUICKER than .400. The numbers you get reacting to the practice tree function on your delay box tell you NOTHING about how you might react to the tree. All that you are looking for is consistency. The reasoning for this is that when you are inside the car the box display will always be different depending on the light. Do delay boxes and throttle timers make you a better racer? Absolutely NOT! An auto shifter will 9 times out of 10 make the car more consistent but that's the extent of electronics making things "better". There are different classes for anyone who doesn't want to use electronics in their car. I have a good friend who has a "D" Gas Ford that races in Super Street with NO electronics and does very well. He loves the heritage series and does very well at that and also races Pro at Famoso. There are a bunch of Pro (no box, no throttle timer) guys from Sonoma that do very well in Super Street as well. There are a bunch of guys from Sacramento that double in Pro and Super Pro with NO electronics that also do very well.
What I've learned from this thread is that there are dozens of different ways that we are able to race. I appreciate and enjoy all of it. Bracket racing is the most affordable and safe fun you can have beating the crap out of your car whether it be driver or dedicated race car. NHRA Divisional or National racing takes a LOT more money. There are guys with very low budget operations that do very well there too. Drag racing is always cut a better light and run the number for all of us. Even the pros have to have some idea of a number that they are trying to run to get the win, lane choice, etc...
So Monte is right, cut a light, run the number is the name of the game. I'm just happier than all hell that there are a number of different ways that I can choose to compete on dragstrips all over this bada$$ country of ours.

The rules of racing have a lot of grey areas that they leave untouched. I don't enter these areas as winning isn't that important to me but stand at the starting line and listen, and I mean listen to cars leaving the starting line. There are ways to modify ignitions to act as traction control, slew boxes, and I'm sure everyone has heard about "the dirty dozen". I know I have as I raced against some of them. Don't be blind and think cheating isn't going on.

Much to my disappointment, I SUCKED trying to foot-break a Pro Tree. Didn't take long to figure out that I'd need a trans brake to have any chance on a Pro Tree. It was probably a .500, too, so a .400 would be hopeless.

Billy, NHRA's "kindergarten" explanation has been common knowledge for me (and apparently a bunch of other racers) ever since I can remember, over 40 years. But of course we all know that meanings of terms change among various groups and in different parts of the country over time. So my question for you is: If in your world a race where you can lose by going too fast is still a heads up race, what term do you use for a race where the racers get a green at the same time and the 1st one to the finish line wins?

Heads up is a term that came about when cars are leaving on the same bulb. Leave and "heads up" look to see who moved first. To me and to a lot of guys I know, if the starting line is the same it's "heads up".

Billy.........how can you say that? YOU the driver, let the button go too early, even with a delay box......it's RED. YOU the driver let the button go too late, well you are late. The box only releases the trans brake when YOU tell it to, by the numbers YOU put in it. So NO, the box absolutely does NOT turn the button loose. Yes, it turns the brake loose after the time YOU told the box to hold it after YOU drop the button.

And why would you even care what the other guys light is? As I stated, if you cut the best light and run closer, you win. So your goal is to be the best you can, not just better then the other guy.

And a footbrake class is a footbrake class. A "no box" class is usually just that, but trans brakes are allowed. Can you be "better" on the tree with a brake?.....usually, but it sure doesn't make you automatic. Just like a delay box doesn't make you an automatic 00 machine. Footbrake, box, no box, whatever, it's still all about YOU. Get it where you fit in. You want to footbrake in a box or no box class that's your option of course

You are also picking nits about the difference in a heads up "race" and a heads up "start". They are not the same. A heads up race is equal start, first to finish wins. Index classes are heads up "start" but NOT a heads up "race"

Your comment about crew chief putting right numbers in delay box, weather, throttle stop etc and every run will be perfect?........really? What if you the driver stage 3" too deep? Now you are red, not to mention if you the driver "miss" the bulb, you are late. It's all still about the driver, not the gizmos

Never been my interpretation of the phrase. It's always meant starting at the same time, no breakout, first to cross the finish line wins. Maybe it's just me, but I don't consider an index race with a breakout as grounds for losing as "heads up". But maybe I'm just too old to understand...

I'm working on the old part so maybe that's why I don't get it either.

NHRA made the indexes so that everyone could compete. It's logical and right. RACERS figured out all the ways to best approach the new formats and developed what they thought would help them compete better. The first "throttle stops" were no more than a plate under the carb. The heritage series guys, 7.60, 8.60, 9.60, still use those plates but they are externally adjustable and manually set.
If you take a Super Comp dragster and hit a .4 tree with no delay box, you are going to go red every time. When the trans break came about, again by RACERS, they found this out the hard way and hence the delay box. That's why Competition Elim. is so bada$$, Think about trying to cut a green light off the bottom bulb in those featherweight cars.
The governing authorities really didn't make things like they are, the RACERS did. I understand the heads up as being no breakout, I get it. I just know where the term came from and that is all I'm referring to here.
Again, I LOVE this sport and am so grateful that there are so many different options for anyone who likes to compete.

I've race NHRA stockers, SS/T and S/G as well as Pro and Super Pro ET cars as well as raced on the street heads up years ago. All of it is fun to me
I've seen and heard all the comments about the heads up .90 class break out Sewer Gas cars and can tell you those that think and make comments about them couldn't get by one round at a local .90 race let alone at a divisional or national event
I don't let other people tell me what I should like to do, especially when it comes to fun and cars
Do your own thing and tell the doubters and haters to stick their opinion up there behind

Well there area couple guys here who have commented that have won Division titles and some that chased points for years in .90 racing.....So I think some get it for sure.

I ran S/ST for years and went back to brackets because, as Dave Hall said, the NHRA tour is much more expensive. I can bracket race for a month for what it costs to attend one NHRA event, and my chances of winning $$$ are far greater. I need every $50 quarterfinal or $20 round money I can get to keep my operation running.

Division stuff is expensive for sure, not to mention the time off work and out here the travel expenses. Then there is the National events, ugh don't even get me started on those..

Winning a big money bracket race without a pipe rack... Did you see who won BOTH of the million dollar bracket races this year?? Big tire door car got them both! It was even 2 door cars in the finals of the East coast race too. Shows you don't need the dragster to be successful in the big $$ bracket race game.

Do dragsters react more consistently and are easier to drive the stripe?..........absolutely. Do you HAVE to own one to win?......absolutely NOT

Delay boxes, throttle stops, electronics, make winning easy! We need more racers for bigger purses so.....dive on in!

So does that mean I should just go rent a car from Scotty Richardson or Bogacki for the weekend. After all, according to some that's an automatic win........childs play............LOL!!!!

Hell, me and Bones(Todd Ewing) are friends. He probably wouldn't even charge me, if I just gave him a percentage of all that cash I'm gonna win...........LOL!!!

Tom was being a tad sarcastic to be sure. But he has a point we need more people to enter to increase the purse. Afterall the winner only got $275K at our million dollar race. But then that same guy also won the million which I though was over $300K. So grab a lane and come play

Exactly...I didn't think I could make the guys see the difference over here between a proper "heads-up" race first to the line and an index race where they start together....bit surprised some on this thread can't see it either.

If the cars are dialed the same its heads up, no ifs ands or buts about it.

EXCEPT, that if you go too fast you lose. NOT heads up.......EXCEPT in Stock or Super Stock with cars classed the same.......then first to finish wins. Which is a heads up "race" within a Handicap eliminator........Clear as mud........LOL!!!

Cement truck heading your way. BIG difference between what YOU call "heads up" and a real "heads up race". LOL

Except this, that or the other. I actually get what you're saying about "heads up" racing, first to the finish line wins. To me there are two types of a drag race.
1. Handicap start, first guy to the stripe wins.
2. HEADS UP! First guy to the stripe wins.

There you go. I can build an index (10.90) for around 5000.00 and 7500.00 in my 422 smallblock that would be perfect for (9.90) index. A good running heads up engine will cost you 10's of thousands and then 10's of thousands in the chassis. And lots of testing from what I see around my neck of the woods

Dude, I get what you're saying! You are talking about rules and classes and all sorts of the things that go into them. Really, when it comes right down to it, there's only the two.

There's really four!

1. Handicap with breakout.
2. Index with breakout.
3. Heads-up no breakout.
4. Comp eliminator with handicap and no breakout, but penalty on index next round (?!?)

OK, you guys win. Electronics do nothing to help you win.

Lets go to a big bucks race, or an NHRA divisional and see how many guys want to give up their delay boxes, t-stops, racepacs, Crewchief pro software, or weather station with up to the second pager.

Obviously all you guys are top flight drivers who benefit very little from all these aids to cutting a better light and running the number.

How does a Football coach make millions if all he has to tell his team is "Score more touchdowns than the other team and you will win."

Sorry I wasted everyone's time trying to enlighten you on the strategies required to win a bracket or index race when you are the less talented driver.

Speaking of my own personal experience in racing, being lucky is better than being good.

When I win, it's because I got lucky
When I lose, it's because I wasn't good enough

Delay boxes, auto shifters, traction control, boost control, etc. are all functions of the CAR. Do they help the car be more efficient and consistent? You betcha! Do they help you win? I'll leave that here.

Really, that stuff exists? No kidding.....How about all the other stuff? You still have to be a little lucky, and very good to win the big $ stuff. You still have to drive the stripe, let go the button, tune the car to a gnats a$$, and execute. You better be able to put together a .01 something to .00 something package by feel several times in a row, and have some lucky breaks to win. If you want to get excited at a big $ bracket race, watch it at the finish line.

Even in Stock and Super Stock if you go too far under you get horsepower unless you're at an open.

I don't really agree with that and here is why. An 8.50 cert chassis is an 8.50 cert chassis, regardless of the type car. That same chassis will go to 7.50 with a FC cage, a few bars and not a whole lot more money. Now while I am a believer in the moly 6.0 cert chassis, the fact remains I have seen a lot of REALLY fast cars with mild steel 25.5 cages. Then you factor in racks, brakes, decent shocks, whatever and its all the same stuff on a quicker bracket car. So to say a heads up chassis costs WAY more is not an accurate statement in all cases. Now you wanna run 3s, yeah, you are going to drop some coin......deep in the 4 sec zone, not so much, or at least you don't HAVE to.

On to the motor. A block is a block, cam is a cam and many other parts that cost no more to make 700hp as one that will tolerate 2000hp. Instead of a $1000 crank you might need a $1500 crank and you will spend more on the heads in most cases, but that's about it.

I think most guys just get it in their head that heads up cars cost too much money before they even price it. I see plenty of regular "working guys" at the track with really fast cars. Just depends on how bad you want to do it and how resourceful you are.

While it's fast as balls, been 4.40s, Ron Rhodes car is pretty damn basic. Lightweight 67 Camaro with leafs and a moly cage. Really good motor, but it also has 23 degree heads, so it's NOT exotic by any means.

Gonna throw this out. I had a customer a couple years ago that whittled his 86 Camaro down to 2675 lbs with him in it. Still had steel doors, fenders and hatch. Lexan windows, stock floor pans, ladder bars and basic 7.50 cert moly cage. 400" dirt late model motor with just some decent 23* stuff. Didn't make much over 600hp. At that weight and a single .036 fogger, that thing went 4.80s. It CAN be done and not cost a fortune

Heck then your old heads up mopar should be out racing in 2017 then. See you at the track

Monte the parts all cost what they cost....the testing and knowing what to do is the hard part. Ron Rhodes parts can be duplicated, but the guy tests non stop at probably the best radial prep track around. His knowledge is what's priceless/expensive.

I for sure don't have the budget to go really fast but with what I have I should be able to go 5 teens .
My issue is i'm trying to learn this on my own with some help from my KOS friends ,
But the NOS side of it I have never picked up more the 2 tenths .
At this time I have a "200" jets in the fogger and have never used the 2nd stage .
But on my budget I can't afford to send it out and drop 500 to 1000 bucks if not more to have it flowed .
The plan is to creep up on a 5 to 600 shot but we will see .

Having raced heads up, bracket racing and index racing heads up racing provides the most adrenaline. Racing heads up with a Mopar provides the most debt lol. As far as Rhodes I have known him since the mid 90s he has had that car since. He has made thousands of passes in the car he has raced it all motor on radials NOS on radials he has data that would take anyone else a long time to get and the guy is pretty darn smart. If you can't build your own stuff or you make enough money to spend $30-40K per year to keep up I would suggest brackets or index racing. It is easy to say you can deal with being slower as long as your racing but if you are ultra competitive like me that will last about a year before the frustration gets to high. I raced heads up for 2 years was in a couple finals in the ram racing series and said heck with it. I spent 100K in 2 years and was still .20 slow and everyone else was getting faster. I spent 5k just on converters to test.

Monte my experience is the cost to keep up with most classes is the expensive part. Also a bracket car can use maybe 2 sets of slicks a year most. A heads up car you might get 2 races before they start to go away. Rhodes car is a pretty tricky piece crawl under that thing it will amaze you all subtle things. He does his own stuff only costs him his time. Tony does the engine program for him I'm sure that is a pretty tricky setup

You might add Monte, it doesn't matter who or what's in the other lane, a hard thing to understand in bracket racing. They will either make it hard or easy for you to win by how they race (cut the light and run the number). Good driver, you better let the button go on time, bad driver, you got a good cushion at the stripe. All those electronics are "tools" to win by, still up to you on how "you" use them.

Is that the only answer you ever have? I could do it next year if I was willing to make the commitment, of which I am NOT. I could sell my boat, my Harleys, Jeep, other cars all my guns and everything else I like to do and easily finish the car. But that is something I don't care to do at this point. I did it once before. I lived, ate and breathed heads up racing and won a world championship for my efforts. Worked at a machine shop and lived in a 1 bedroom apartment. I did what I HAD to do to make it happen and anyone else can do the same if they want to do it bad enough. I currently don't want to do it bad enough and neither do you apparently. I have said before I can't afford to build the motor I want and that's true.........but if I was willing to sacrifice, I could build two or three. But I enjoy what I am doing now and don't feel the urge to change it. I will finish it as extra cash comes available without giving up anything else. But I know exactly what it takes to do it and what it costs, as I deal with it everyday with others.

You bought a heads up chassis.......correct? Sell that Duster and all that other stuff you brag about having "on the shelf" and you could easily build a motor for it. The thing is, you don't WANT to bad enough and that is the position of most of us. Unless you are loaded, running one of these cars takes a huge sacrifice. Most won't do it

That's why I won't do it, not willing to make the sacrifice. I love watching it though.

The thing about help, is that to get it, you have to ASK for it. Nobody is just going to walk up and volunteer to straighten your program out. Plus you have to ask the right people.

I mentioned earlier that I get $1000 a day for a private test session and that's true.........BUT, I go to a bunch of races every year. Holley pays me to be at these races. So that said, if you are where I am at, to get help all you have to do is ask. Everyone knows I will be at Hendersons trailer if he is there. So there is a constant stream of guys coming by asking for help, advice, look at plugs, look at their car, whatever. I am NOT paid to tune Chad's car by either him or Holley. That's just where I happen to be and everyone knows it. Holley pays me to help anyone I can and Chad happens to be one of those. At a big race like Duck's, I might be tuning 20 cars and it costs nothing but the time to come ask. At the last SGMP race, in addition to me, there were 5 other guys from Holley there. I am at Drag Week every year. Holley also rents Bowling Green about 3 times a season for the same purpose. I am there along with other EFI techs and we help customers......for free. Can't get to the track? Use the phone. I help way more guys over the phone than I do in person. Again, Holley pays me to do this. At the PRI show, I will talk to hundreds of guys. OK, can't get to a race, can't get what you need over the phone and a private deal is all that's gonna help, yep, it's gonna cost you a grand. Can't swing that? get 3 buddies. Can you swing $250?

Well I don't have a NOS kit, Holley EFI and haven't bought anything from Monte Smith Performance........so. I mentioned earlier that I tuned on the Farmtruck. He is the NX poster boy. He needed help, he asked me and James told him to come to the track and we got the truck lined out. Derrick has Induction Solutions kits and Haltech EFI. Steve doesn't do EFI and the Haltech guys were not available. Derrick asked, so I helped him out.

As hard as it may seem to understand, I LIKE to help guys make their crap run better. It's not only the money, I just like to do it. And the way I see it, the next time you or your buddies need something, well maybe they will call me. Don't like my straight forward, call it like I see it attitude and think I am a smart azz, well that's fine to, because I CAN be a smart azz.........BUT I will STILL help if you ask me and give you the best advice I can. Be prepared though. I don't like something you have, think your shocks are junk, or you are going about it all wrong.......I WILL tell you that. My track record is pretty good though and I generally get results if you will listen. My current biggest customer is an engine builder that I nearly came to blows with over a customer of his. I did the nitrous, he did the motor. He told the guy not to listen to me and do it HIS way. I strongly disagreed and told him so. Like I said, he is now my biggest customer and sends me EVERY intake off any nitrous motor he does.............All this may seem like bragging and maybe it is, but two things. Been doing this a LONG time and it's what I get PAID to do, I am supposed to be pretty good at it

You only get it by doing it and sticking with it. He is not changing parts every year or doing the latest trick of the week. He is getting all he can out of the same combo year after year and is reluctant to make BIG changes..........although I have been bending his ear about EFI, LOL!!!

We were the FIRST nitrous radial car period in the 4s with the Buick. Went 4.92 at Carolina Dragway. Same car, same motor was first to the 80s, 70s, 50s, 40s and 30s for a 632. Would likely have been first to 20s had we kept that motor, as the last pass it ever made was a .31 before we went to a bigger motor. We just kept refining what we had, same as Ron has. You just have to stick with it and if you get stuck, ask for help

Depends on the electronics?
Optical Recognition with a camera in the car could "see" the tree and launch the car for you. Gyro compensated accelerometer and traction control could detect where you are every instant down the track and correct the acceleration rate to ET nearly the same every run.

Sure these things might be outlawed, but that never stopped cheaters.
Then what do you do with all the new cars that already have most of these systems already in place. A Tesla is just a software upgrade away to a self driving bracket or index car.

If you are racing non-electronics against electronics and think its fair you just don't understand the capabilities of MSD Grid, or other similar programing. Period.

I am not talking delay box, I am talking about the ability to control power ALL the way down the track. Its not driving or leaving. Its electronics.

I haven't read all the replies but here's my

I like bracket racing. I like being chased down but also like chasing the other guy down... Index racing?? not so much, doesn't feel right slowing car to meet index. Heads up racing?? out of my $$$ comfort zone to feel I could be competitive. Also it seems you have to have and entourage of guys the faster you go. I'm good to go by myself as necessary. Plus heads up is too easy, just cut a light, get there first and never close your wallet. All the cool kids are doing it. ...

I usually run a non-electronics class but last week at SCSN in Vegas, I jumped in to Elecronics as well, "Bottom bulb racing in a top bulb world". I don't run a delay box. I went out 3rd round in "Non-E" but made it to quarters in Electronics. I say I like getting chased but, when I dial a 10.37 and the dragster next to me dials a 7.62 it's tough to play at the strip as he flies by like I'm standing still but, bring it! I may run "E" more often as usually less cars and more payout ...speaking of that, these days I kinda seek out races that offer a decent payout and/or pay contingency. I gotta say, I get a little giddy when checks start showing up in the mailbox from contingency sponsors. I'm done E.T. chasing "for now", just wanna go rounds.