SB VICTOR ready for Dyno

: Almost time to hook up to the Dyno thank you Allen Sherman at Trumble racing Engines let's see what this bad boy will do!!!

How about some details on the motor?

Ritter block 4.185 x 4.0

Victor heads OOTB with clean up and valve job

60 mm cam .480 int .460 exh 1.6 rockers

Houghes big block victor rockers with fit spacers

1000 cfm throttle stop carb

15 to 1 comp

intake flow is 380 at .800

This is going in a super street 69 Barracuda 2800lb w/driver
looking for 10.90 @ 145 to 150 mph
It is being build by Allen Sherman at Trumble Racing

I have finaly seen a unicorn!

Sweet piece, hope it runs real good,as it should!

Should run that pretty easy... how many revs are you planning on

Big MPH for a S/ST car. Cannot wait to see the results!!

The old W2 416 ran 10.90 @ 135-138 so using the numbers we think it should be in that 145-150 range. We did dyno the 440 with the W2 heads and made just under 700hp which was about 60 better then the 416 was,that is when we decided to try another head. The W2 intake flow was 316 @650 and was done, the Victors are still going at 800.We don't plan to run it past 7500 rpm because of the valve train.

Ray

What is the actual measured rocker arm ratio on the engine? I know that the SB heads struggle to get decent rocker arm ratio so I'm wondering what you ended up with those heads and rocker arms.

I see you said BB rockers.. I'd like to know how well
they fit on that head

Looks good, good luck with it! Your the first that I know of that will have an engine running with these heads.

TD called today to let me know those heads will work with 48° blocks as well...

The rockers actually measured 1.6 not sure why they wouldn't. Just a note they are not out of the box ready it took Allen 2 days of fitting and correcting clearance issues. If y'all have any issues give him a call he can get you everything you will need

Here is the intake work Allen did on the super victor

Hey,
The dude that did your intake has his stuff wired tight.

If I was a betting man, I'd bet my bottom dollar he gained you a fat 20 HP everywhere, and probably more.

Very VERY nice work. I wish you had an off the shelf manifold to do back to back testing.

Now that it look at it again, I'd bet 30 HP everywhere and more than that at peak.

BB rockers are usually long on the stem side..they come
real close to the outer edge of the stem...I had a set of
mis marked SB rockers that were actually BB ones and that
was how mine were anyways(they were Crane blue rockers)
EDIT
also whats the install height on your springs

That's pretty damn good considering there's no CSA info about it! Wow...

I'd put my money on me being correct. I've seen those gains just from correcting the plenum. Even moreso with the Strip Dominator.

Wow that thing looks good. So glad this head is finally coming to fruition

Very nice. Cool to see all these new unchartered parts coming together.

Does anyone care to share their thoughts on how much more potential these heads have over a set of properly prepped 360-1 245's?

four years after they hit the catalog..... with a wait time like that it truly should have had a Mopar part number. Hoping for the best!!! I was so excited at the possibility of running these.

Do these heads use a stock type intake or what... I
see he has a victor intake but is that a stock bolt
pattern or a W type bolt pattern

The hell is up with this ??? Why does it look like the intake has a huge space Under it

note how high that intake sits P!!

I cant make anything out in your pic

Look at how low the distributor whole is in relation to the intake

I can see that there is a gap... like a air gap intake
but is the both pattern like a W intake or stock.. they
are different

look at the first pict in the post..... that sucker is UP there!

...looks higher than the W5 deal anyways.

Looks close to 3/4

How did you get oil up to the back of the block.I have had 2 of these blocks and neither one had oil up there. Did you run an external oil line

But what is the bolt pattern.. they can cast that intake
as high as they want but what is the bolt pattern.. in
other words.. are those heads made for a certain manifold
or will any stock intake work... or does a W series intake
bolt on

Subscribed! Good luck, can't wait to see the results.

It is a factory super victor not a "W" they send spacers to make it fit the stock bolt pattern but the intake port is raised up so high that it took 2 days porting to match everything up. Allen did a helluva job

Guys it was a major undertaking on every aspect of this project it has required copious amounts of fitting and massaging lol! And no we are not running an external oil line Allen fixed all the oiling passages to get oil to the top I will see if I have a picture of that the block was a huge undertaking but as someone stated above we do have a UNICORN lol!

here is a picture unported out of the box so you can see all the work

That's the spacer they send with the heads

Looks very nice and should make some steam.........

Bolt pattern is the same as a Victor 340, which is you typical LA style. Ports on the Super Victor is .1" smaller width and .1 increase in height. Ports raised 3/4" and carb height is +1.5" to the Vic 340.

The Super Victor is not 1.5" taller than the Victor. I just put one on my car and it is only 1/2 inch taller. I am still running a stock hood so this was a critical thing to keep an eye on.

I had to take a ton of material out of the super victor to match my ported Edelbrock RPM heads. I changed to much at one time to tell if it makes any more power than the Victor. I moved to EFI at the same time and only have one trip to the track so far.

Just to report Its ALIVE and running on the Dyno the unicorn lives!!

Run the dog $hit out of it!

Great news! keep us posted

Went 730 @ 6800 and 643 torque @5500 with 32 degree, first pull, went to lunch, start tuning when we get back.

Ray

With 380 intake flow and 15:1 compression you should have enough raw potential to get into the upper 700's. Just depends on carb, cam, headers, etc.

This is a throttle stop engine so peak will not be the same as an all out super stock or comp engine , but i agree needs a different cam and more carb The thought right now is we will see around 770 before we call it

Ray

.... let us know the out come of that bad boy

Did you ever say how big the engine is? I don't recall...
Brian

He said 4.185x4 which equals 440 c.i.

Well since I'm done dynoing I'll report the results for the buckners and everyone else. We finished at 796hp@7400 and 689tq@5800. As Ray and Jason have stated this engine is built for a throttle stop and durability. I feel like with a different cam, a touch more compression, and a bigger carb 850+ is attainable. My dyno is a bit on the conservative side. My customer Steve Kent has a SS/AH car that we've been 8.20's with and on my dyno it makes 990hp compared to others making 1050+ that we run with or outrun usually. Just giving you guys some info. Thanks, Allen

Just got a text from the shop went 796 @7400 with an adapter and a shop dominator and 781 @7200 with the 4150. Conclusion it needs a big carb and a custom cam but it ain't too bad for a 59* small block. The victor heads are for real and worth every penny.

Ray

Allen, Did you used to go by J Allen Sherman. Bought my stocker lifters from you about 12 years ago. Glad to see you still digging hard. Did notice that are still hitting some Natl events and so on. Good Job on this build. matt btw: Welcome to MOPARTS

Awsome, and thank you for taking the jump and sharing it!

Looks like maybe we can live with the silly ex bolt pattern.

He is the same J Allen

Ray

Yeahhhhh!!! Really nice results... Thanks for share this build with us! Finally a real SB Mopar OOTB Heads!

Yes I'm J. Allen Sherman, same guy...lol...the exhaust bolt pattern is but one of MANY hurdles on this project. We had planned to re drill the bolts on the exhaust flange in our CNC mill but we didn't do it on ray and Jason's engine for fear of creating a fit issue for the headers in the car. No one makes a head stud kit for the engine so I made up a kit myself using arp parts that if anyone needs I can supply. The Hughes rocker system is a nice product, but there are some modifications to them necessary to make them optimal. Edelbrock did a really excellent job on the ports, valve angle, and the complete design of the head and the super victor intake is a nice intake and a really great intake after some porting. All in all there's a lot of potential with these heads and intake but it's not a pull it out the box and bolt it on package.

^^^ Thanks for the info Great #'s too!

Thanks for the post and the info. After seeing them on the drawling board for so long its great to see that with some work they deliver as promised.

Damn nice build ! Thanks for the post.

Nicely done... great numbers also.. now go have fun

Thank J Allen Sherman he and Mike and Jimmy at the shop did a great job. Now it's time to bring that bad boy home its owner will be loanly no more lol

That's a bad little man!

...but what did you have for lunch?? thanks for sharing the build and look forward to some "in the car" updates. cool stuff!!!

does anyone know what the differences are between W5 head and these so far they seem to be much more raised port hence the need for the intake spacer in the valley and the intake bolt pattern is std A .......what is the exhaust pattern and location ? W5 ? W5 being higher than W2 ? would W5 rockers work also ? maybe easier than the Victor big block ? I have W5's and would look at these as an up grade

I would like to add that the victor head OOTB will bolt on a LA block and you can use any standard LA intake,it will bolt right on. The rockers will be available in kit form, bolt on, soon from at least 2 suppliers. The head gasket is standard LA or W8 if you use the extra head bolts. I believe SCS is making a intake gasket and push rods would need to be made to order. That's it bolt on power using parts that are ready to use. We saw 100+ HP over a good set of W2's with no over the top prep, port work, ect. The head is so much better because the shape and angles are optimized, not just bigger. Edelbrock is asking for feedback from Allen and a few others who have a set and will correct areas that need attention. All the contacts are in this topic so if anyone is ready they are more than willing help out. We have to use these products, get them out in the real world so we will have something besides 30 year old parts to choose from. The more of these that are out there the more parts that will be produced.

BTW, We should have some on track results in 2 weeks as we are going to the Sports Nationals in Bowling Green next week and will get to the track when we get back.

Ray

If it don't rain next week end I may make the trip to Bowling Green to watch this animal run.

Bittersweet! Great....no more 40 year old heads but still a limited supply of 40 year old 340 blocks or 20 year old 360....both of which will need a lot of specialized machining to take full advantage of the power potential. 800 hp will make short life of even a decently prepped OE block....maybe now the Edelbrock invested time and R&D into producing the first LA head redesign in probably 15-20 years maybe Dart...or SOMEONE can get their act together and get us a nice USEABLE race block at an AFFORDABLE PRICE!

Ritter is doing it. He's doing the blocks.

I will never understand why guys thing the GM crowd buy [censored] and bolts it on? It don't happen. The difference is they get to make so many they work out the kinks in months not years.

And, it don't matter anyway. Chevrolet can produce the biggest pile of steaming monkey dung and the fools would buy it and fix it, or the aftermarket would save its ass.

All you have to do is look at the ball/stud rocker system. Junk. Enough said, because it ain't very often I hear a Chevy guy [censored] about paying for shaft rockers. Now all the Chrysler guys love the magnum because they can drop in a hydraulic roller cam. Don't matter the valve train is 60 year old, 60 year obsolete crap.

Go figure.

A ritter block is expensive and still needs tons o expensive machine work to be used. There are plenty of compareable chubby blocks that can be bought, fixed and run for less than buying a ritter block.

A magnum does not use a ball and stud and pretty much anything built with
a magnum head or LA (factory heads anyhow)don't make enough RPM to take advantage of a shaft rocker system.

A magnum ain't so great just fer the roller cam... the heads are better flowing on the intake and exhaust than any factory LA, nice machined valve cover rails with 10 bolts that don't leak, re-useable valve cover gaskets, ex bolts that don't have watter in em, no heat cross-over, one piece pan gasket, much stronger block, cheap reliable roller cam, much more compression tolerance than any LA heads, should I keep going I am out of breath

I dont know how many Ritter blocks that you've got running.. I spent $4,000 fixing mistakes on mine.hope there getting better

Didn't say they are perfect. AFAIK, as I haven't talked to him in years he had to do all the tooling and everything.

Geebus, give it a chance. More Chevy blocks are made in a month than he has made.

Just don't love the magnum. It ain't all that. Don't do hydraulic roller cams anymore. My gaskets don't leak. The block is no stronger. No more compression tolerance.

I'd say you are just wrong.

Edit: I guess you think a bolt down rocker is different from the ball stud, and technically it is. It's all the same junk of a different flavor. Most Chevy guys I know don't run anything but shafts. I guess they are stupid.

Just to add to what ray and Jason have said, the heads from edelbrock are a pretty much ready to bolt on piece right out the box, I changed the valve job to suit my preferences. The one major area of work is the intake. I had a solid 2 days worth of porting on the intake. Edelbrock did tell me today they intend to build an intake with bigger ports and a 4500 carb flange on it. The one major deficiency I saw in the heads was his, when I cut the spring pockets to accept 1.625" diameter triple valve springs it made pinholes in the top of each exhaust port. I didn't cut the pocket any deeper just cut the O.D. larger to accept the triple spring. I brought this up to edelbrock and it's supposed to get resolved.

the real question i have is the quality of block and issues that had to be fixed..if or when you have time..thanks

Just my point....a $3000 block that needs $4000 worth of machine work and then it may not even be useable. Nothing against Ritter but even AMC has a block made by Indy. Pontiacs have blocks, there is the new Track Boss Cleveland based Ford....
An aluminum A8 is like $8000.....[ Moparts Family Site - Keep it Friendly ]!!!!!
All these other blocks are being sold for $2000-3000 and we can't get something useable for under $5000....and then it's like hens teeth!!!!
Not a fan of Magnum stuff simply because it is OE and wasn't designed for 800+ hp.
Now we have a head that will bolt on and has easy 800ho potential and no block...kind of ironic...when we had blocks...expensive as they were...the only 800hp
potential platform we had was w8....maybe 9..stuff and was just as expensive as the block. Now we have heads that almost anyone can afford and no blocks....maybe if Vic did these heads 10 years ago Chrysler wouldn't have stopped production...

I am not talking about hydraulic rollers, and 11.5:1 with headers and a double pumper...

I mean we need a block that can tolerate 15:1, .800"+ lift, sheet metal intakes, dual Dominators, maybe alky, and even though I am not a fan of it...nitrous....
With these heads and these types of parts why can't they make 1200+hp.....Magnum or a 40 year old 340 isn't going to last long under all that!

Ha! Could even touch an R block for anywhere NEAR this even 10 years ago....

Could buy three for what some guys have into their Ritters to make them
Useable...

Magnum blocks are stronger, and I will be proving that fact very soon with my 410 stroker on a stock magnum block......

Just go to a gen 3... FAR better than a magnum... thats my
next move

Pure BS.... I was offered $1500 for a new race block I have $1100 in machine work receipts...... I see blocks all the time for sale, ive sent people links.... ready to go blocks could be $2500 and the majority of the people wouldnt buy them.

Production of this small block stuff stopped for two reasons.

1.) NHRA killed Pro Stock Truck
2.) Chrysler got out of asscar.

Those are the FACTS.

I understand Chrysler leaving asscar, but I will never ever understand why NHRA killed PST. I know, from personal conversations with people who were involved, that Chrysler could track sales of trucks DIRECTLY to how the Dodges did in PST. So much so in point of fact, that Dodge refused to even change the most minute detail in body work, even though said body was hurting ET and MPH. It was the visual Dodge needed and a good day at the track produced sold trucks.

LOL, PST was a main factor of me buying my Dakota R/T back in 2000, I still have my Todd Patterson T shirt

they need aftermarket blocks too though

They can handle 900+ hp

Man I loved that class

Hahahahaha

Not a hemi fan...whatever the platform....always was, am and will be a small block Chrysler fan!

PST Dakota did have a body style disadvantage to the Ranger and S-10 due to their larger size.
It wasn't that they refused to do anything to them, rules didn't allow them to until the final PST year.
That's when they were allowed to shrink the Dakota to 7/8 size.

That was a while ago but it seems to me there was discussion before the rules change. IIRC Chrysler wasn't going to alter anything if the rules changed or not.

I wasn't there . But I did get it from one of the guys that was there. Otherwise, I'd have no idea there was even a question about scaling them down.

You do know a gen 3 is a small block.... I never was until
resonantly ... was a LA SB guy for years..still am but since
the block are few and far between.. I'm changing to gen 3

I am not saying a magnum block is a race block but it is a simple fact it is much stronger than an LA 360-340-318-273 except possibly a 340TA block. I made a big thread showing some of the differences I am aware of and they are not insignificant.

As for detonation tolerance I am running 11.5 with stock ported by me iron magnum heads and a tiny 221@.050 cam 91 octane and ZERO sighns of detonation, try that with some dinosaur open chamber LA heads.

A8 block for under 4k....

http://fortcollins.craigslist.org/pts/5534396981.html

Smokin deal!

I owned one... try buying the front end to that block right now
and I paid a lot less than $4000

Been doing open chamber, pump gas, 11:1 LA engines since 1981. And still am.

What elevation? 91 octane? Little tiny cams? In a truck you tow cars with? Be honest now...

And to be fair the LA roller blocks have the same structural improvements the magnum block has, at least the 91 under my shelf but not the 88 flat tappet block down there.

I would sure like to see proof of this but I never see any FAST magnum small blocks out there.

There are some issues to be resolved on the block, but it all depends on which route you choose to go with the block as to how expensive and extensive the work required is. For instance on the engine for Ray and Jason, they got a 59* lifter angle block, and we were trying to re use as many components out of there previous engine as we could, so we had to make lines to route the oil up to the head to oil the rocker shafts, do a pretty major amount of clearancing in the lifter galley area to get the tie bar roller lifters to clear, make oil returns flow to the correct locations, and a few other issues here and there. If we had started with a 48* lifter angle block, went with pushrod oiling style lifters and rocker system, and been starting from a blank sheet without trying to run parts that were in a previous engine we could've done all the machining necessary for a very reasonable price. Not knocking ray or Jason's decisions to re use parts they could out of there other engine, in fact I was all for that because I don't believe in wasting money if it's not necessary. The quality of the casting of the Ritter block is on par with anything I've seen from dart on Chevy and ford blocks they make. There are just some machining areas that needs correcting and I know Kent is working hard to fix all the quirks. But as others have said there aren't 1000's of these blocks out there so getting all the kinks worked out will take time. However, I feel like we can get one of the Ritter blocks race prepped and ready to be assembled in an expedient amount of time at a reasonable price for anyone who would like to use one as the base of there build. I can tell you first hand there's no Chrysler production block that's anywhere near the casting quality and strength of the Ritter block. Nor do I feel you can get anywhere close to the power per cubic inch out of an aluminum aftermarket block or aftermarket iron block that you can out of the Ritter block. Just my 2 cents...

You won't he disappointed. Break something and replacement parts are a junkyard away.
Matt

Have you looked at his aluminum block real good? We are trying to decide between cast and aluminum...we'll be using 48°, 50 or 55mm cam and large bore...will be 426cid.
Our goal will likely be to claw our way to 2hp per cid...we'll be using Indy's intake, but might try the SV just to see where it is compared to Indy's.
Did you guys get any video?

That's encouraging news about the block it sounds like they're turning the corner... when I was working on these blocks you couldn't even drop a head on.. and they didn't come with the thrust main cut either. But I'm very happy they came together for you guys.. some feedback from the track.would be cool

Nice build! Thanks for sharing.

You will here real soon I promise.....

Check out the official Edelbrock page.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_f...104707146233609

https://youtu.be/0no61Rg2IdE

The Dyno pull

Are the cam specs a secret???

Man, why not run a Dommy on that thing? Good engine regardless.

Brian, Like you don't know how to spec a cam

I only ask because they keep saying the cam specs are a bit compromised due to the rockers I'm guessing?
Just wondering how much the cam was specs were compromised...that is all!

The cam we'll be using for 434cid will be around 282-290@ .050 .830 lift and around 112lca...see no biggie!

[/quote]

The cam we'll be using for 434cid will be around 282-290@ .050 .830 lift and around 112lca...see no biggie! [/quote]

Those #'s make mine look timid lol

We finally got to work on the Cuda this weekend and installed the engine.The engine is taller and wider so the headers hit the cage tubes. The vacuum pump hits the frame and when we moved it now hits the block,and the starter hits the block. Fitting starter was the easiest thing to fix,5 minutes of grinding fixed that, but I had to cut the headers and rework the two center tubes. The plan is to use these for now and have a new set build. The vacuum pump is on going. Hope to have it running this week. I'll have Jason post a few pics.

Ray

any updates?

Is there a phone number for the machine shop that did all the work to the block

http://www.trumbleracingengines.com/

https://www.facebook.com/allen.sherman.94

Thank you