Mopar done making wedge blocks

Called Barton racing on wensday lookin for a r3 block . Ray said he would call Mopar and find out when next run is.Ray called me back after talking to his guy at mopar. Mopar rep told Ray all wedge blocks will never be made again . Fiat has no intrest in it. That GREAT !!!!!!!!!

Not surprised, they are an "all for huge profit" organization. I didnt even know "MOPAR" still existed.

Doesnt surprise me at all... how long has it been
already.. I just hope they sell the sand molds off
and the rights.. I wonder if the gen 3 is next...
but I know they have to support it for some years yet

Must be why Indy wants 3650.00 for an R3...Indy has all the remaining R3's and none of them are siamesed.

I guess I am buying a RITTER block

as it's been discussed before the R3 blocks went "NS1" in June of 14. That's the part code for "DEAD"..... basically weekly demand was next to nothing. If they don't see orders to fill, they ax stuff. Now it's been awhile, but last year I punched in some mega block part numbers and they actually still showed some on back order status. That's a glimmer of hope that they could possibly do another run of them... but with the Fiat thing, I highly doubt it.

I have 2 mega RB blocks (WORLD??)on order show a date of 5/16, there are still a few of R3 blocks in Detroit, PM me if anybody wants one

gary

Sad. Just gotta love the new "global economy".

All these nice heads finally hitting the market and blocks are about as hard to find as striped Unicorns. At 60 years old I have one keith black engine, one mega block, and one 59 degree R3 so I'm sitting ok but is been a hurdle even getting those. I would love to have a Ritter block and really lean on one but at my age spending the money and then addressing the issues is young mans work

900-1100 horsepower, under $20k. Make a call, give them a CC number and it's sitting in your shop a few days later.

A person has to really want to run a Chrysler product to deal with the issues.

YEP it would be a whole lot easier putting a chevy motor plate in.

Are there still the 340 resto blocks in the system
EDIT
I think I will look at the Ritter block post and
see what all that takes to make it work... were
they a siamese block... I know I will be going to
a gen 3 soon but I still have a LOT of LA parts
that I would like to use

and the saga continues...

The G3 hemi will follow closely.

The eyeties have no desire to build Chrysler. It is a wealth transfer.

Fiat has been flat broke more than once. Now they are a global player.

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm.

As long as I can still get a World 440 block..

Hey Mike, lawndart has a aluminum Ritter block up & running I believe. He didn't have the big problems I had with the cast block. That maybe the way to go.

How many times can it be bled out before it's dead?

I know lawndart has been working with Kent about some things he found and said that Kent has made some of the updates that he found dead to the new castings working on some other, just a few tweaks. I myself have ordered a cast iron ritter block, just waiting, ordered it not to far back so must be waiting to get the updates done then will cast the blocks in both aluminum and cast

using this list the following is what I found available:

P4876381AB (1)
P4876791AD (2)
P4876792AD (2)

Why not just buy a aluminum block?

Wishful thinking here.
Edelbrock is well invested in their various heads for the small and big block right? and stand to lose once a drought of blocks for those heads take hold right?
Why Edelbrock not just bite the bullet and mock up molds and go forward with block production of their own. They most probably have the capital. From there on, Chrysler can do what ever it wants and then maybe follow in the steps and come back with production. An abundance of blocks would be the result for us all.

The Edelbrock small block and big block heads fit factory blocks, which are cheap and plentiful right? That has got to be were their big sales numbers come from. Only the hard core guys are buying NEW wedge blocks.

As far as their new Hemi Power Package, I don't have any idea where the blocks will come from. Original blocks are scarce. If you buy a new Indy block, why not get Indy heads? So who will supply blocks for all the E-Brock Hemi heads?

there's been some Hemi blocks trickling out over the last few months Joel... and a long time ago the RB blocks you could order and it would show a back order status which was a glimmer of hope that just maybe they'd do another run sometime. R3 you try and order and it just kicks back as NS1 (no more production)

This just still boils down to Return On Investment for anyone/company producing blocks. Sad, but true.

yep.... the R3 days there were actually people involved with race series that used the piece, the sponsors left, parts advanced to the next level, and basically left the R3 stuff to hobbiest. It took many years before I could swing a build around one.... and not many do.

I'm talking about Edelbrock blocks that cater to their line of heads.
Maybe buy the pattern from Chrysler or at least go into an agreement with them to produce for them instead of all these inconsistent start up companies that have faulted for one reason or the other.
Imagine a good quality stock block in light alloy and iron. I'd have a couple standing till I needed them. Eventually 440's are going to get hard to find. 340's are hard to find in good, unworn condition. 400's are not so in abundance and that leaves only the 383's.
The Elephants are just as rare as a Unicorn.

the "higher end" mopar builders are just as rare as a unicorn from a return on investment standpoint. we're doomed!!

Edelbrock or any other reputable company would probably do it, IF they knew they could sell enough(thousands)to justify the expense.

Fear not they make Pontiac race parts. Big demand right there?
Doug

The problem is Chrysler/FCA releasing the rights
to build it... if they would someone would build it

Edelbrock don't build a GM Block, why on earth would they build a Mopar block first?

There is probably more demand for BB Poncho than Mopar BB. And guess what? They have aftermarket aluminum blocks 3000hp capable for $3995. That is unheard of in the Massively Overpriced Parts Auto Racing community.
http://www.butlerperformance.com/products/engines_assemblies/aluminum.html

the thing with the pontiac stuff is, one size fits all. 326-455 share the same block structure.

with the mopar stuff, you have guys that want a small block, and guys that want a big block. then it's iron vs aluminum.
which one do you build, in order to turn a profit?

Pontiac is also a "Legend" company now since they no longer exist. So when Fiat milks "Chrysler" for all its worth and it also becomes "Legend", then maybe we will get some good blocks? Look at all the flack Ritter caught on here, yeah that makes people really want to cater to this crowd.

Do most ov us REALLY need an aftermarket small block? Whats the upper HP limit on a 340 block?

Really, your questioning why we need them? I guess ignorance is bliss.

And 600hp is about the limit of the stock block if you want it to stay alive more than a season or two. Which is so easily attainable with Indy heads or W8 heads, its almost a grenade on borrowed time if you build one with a stock block, let alone use any kind of power adder.

What really sucks here is the after market has been so slow to pick up the Mopar stuff and bring it to the next level...From what I have been seeing, its never going to happen. I have talked to some vendors, and it always seems to be the same answers, the Mopar people don't spend the money, at least not in the respects that the loyalists from other brands do.

I can tell you didnt plop down 3k plus for no-talent machining paperweight.

It's a bitter sweet time to be a small block guy, we have the heads to make some serious steam and a very small, shrinking supply of blocks.

As Dragula mentioned for the most part Mopar guys are cheap a$$es. It's almost like one of the commercials on tv about the "settlers", as a whole we're settlers. On one of the other Mopar forums I visit it's unbelievable how many guys comment about how good our iron heads and purple shafts are, no matter that they are 30-50 year old technology. Many, many times on there I've seen questions about heads or cams and the same guys always pile on with stuff like "XX iron heads will out flow YY aluminum heads and there is always a purple shaft that is perfect for every application. IMO we're lucky to have the aftermarket support we do.

Do we REALLY need an aftermarket small block? Pale_Roader, really?? That just blows me away! Obviously you don't and most likely never will. This just reaffirms my paragraph above. Settlers, yep.

When the HP potential of current cylinder heads is higher than stock block limitations, i believe that speaks for itself.
Most resto & your average street/strip car probably doesn't need an aftermarket block, but these days 600-650 HP is fairly easy to achieve & stock blocks were never engineered to run safe/reliable at or beyond that level.

There is more demand for a Pontiac block? I haven't seen a handful of Pontiac powered cars at the track in years. I would bet the BB Mopar has a larger following than even the 429/460 Ford as well. The trouble is as bad as people say the stock blocks are they still power a lot of race/street hot rods. There were a lot of them built, plenty left out there cheap. Try and find a good stock 455 Pontiac block. Once the supply of stock blocks drys up things might change.
Doug

I am predicting a big price increase on old, good, lightly used stock blocks.

I would bet people are going to have to pony up serious cash to get a 340 block pretty soon, especially an uncut one. Or face the real possibility you'll be looking at 318 blocks real closely.

Hmmm

You know... i looked for a 'no-sarcasm'/dont get yer panties in a wad' emoticon, but i couldn't find one. Guess i should have looked harder.

It was a legitimate question, coming from a BIG BLOCK guy... who admittedly knows nothing about small blocks. It would be very easy to ass-u-me that because most guys peg the B/RB limit around 6-700HP, that a SB would be less, but i dont like to ASSUME so i asked. Maybe YOU should try not assuming?

Also, i DID say 'most'. Not all. I'd wager that the vast majority ov racers here are still well within the limits ov stock or modified stock blocks. Further... just to add a bit to my point, when i actually look around, and see whats actually running out there, talk to guys, i see a lot ov aftermarket heads (lets play big block again here for a sec), where even the laziest/worst designs can be good for well over 600HP, and many with even better than stock-design aftermarket heads, bolted onto 500-550HP engines. I see a LOT ov aftermarket big block heads on 12, 13 and 14 second cars. That is NOT 700HP.

So, going back to 'most ov us'... it would appear that i'm actually right. Some ov you guys want to run a production company for a very niche market. Look at it from the bean-counters point ov view. What you NEED... is a mom and pop, who will build (and suffer) for the love ov horsepower. Someone like say Passon... who took YEARS to bring his 5-speed to market. That guy's not getting rich off you guys, and neither will anyone producing a good aftermarket small block.

Now, again i'll preface this with i dont know small blocks, but it would see to me that one problem with the SB market, is that there are so many options. Want a big-block? For the most part, you've got B, RB, siamesed, then hemi versions (did i miss any? its been a while). Last i checked for SB, there were dozens. Different decks, sleeves, bores, mains, lifter angles, whatever else. Its GREAT to have options, but its not so great when your market is so small. Just doesn't make a whole lot ov sense to offer so many blocks to such a niche market. Perhaps it might be better to pick say, four, and go nuts. This aint the 70's. On top ov the niche brand and niche market, we now have more options with guys doing gen 3 hemis, or even LS swaps in their Mopars. The demand just cannot be there.

Why are people crying over no more blocks, where have you been the last 20 plus years where one call would get you one in semi short order.

I know why, people were too cheap then and they are now.

Sad to see no more blocks being produced by Mopar. But I see a different path. Tons of G3 out there ready to go. Don't have to look far to find one.
New Victors are out but I don't see what they are going to be used for. You need new rocker gear and new headers along with pistons.
This is not a real big concern if your starting from scratch. But like many have said before what power level are we looking at. Most of us are sub 650 hp.
A stock eagle flows almost the same as the Victor. BTW production valve with a stock port. 272.5 at .400 on my friends bench.
For me I've moved on.
And I have a W9 R3 with a 4.25 stroke engine.
Matt

Got that right. But with the horrible economy and bleak job prospects people are facing, they now have the perfect reason to be cheap.

Not to get off track, but a similar situation is occurring in the S&W revolver world. A certain model that was produced over 20 years ago did not sell very well so production stopped. Now people want those models badly and S&W will not make them again. Used examples are selling in the $2000-2500 range. Snooze = Lose.

I wonder if he mindlessly blathers on like this in person?!

One thing that will let the after market make blocks - Chrysler has to give up the design rights and move on - nobody is going to invest in making new molds if they have to pay an up-front fee and huge % of the business to the mother ship on a 40+ year old design.

Along these lines, I just read on the 'Book about a guy looking for an aluminum block, and said Indy was out of blocks. Are they using the same foundry? Is the outlook that bleak? Maybe I will rethink the next powering of my car and start collecting G3 stuff...

Take a glance around on just this website and you may get your reason for lack of blocks. 90% of our members are happy (proud) of 10-13 second small blocks and mid 9-11 second big blocks. At those ET's the stock blocks are plenty good enough.

I was just a day late so to speak..... 20 years ago we were a young couple that just moved 1300 miles on a whim to start our lives on our own.... R3 block just wasn't in the budget for some reason ....just glad I at least got ONE in my small block lifetime! I'll place blame on the "40 somethings" 20 years ago... they should have foolishly spent that money so generations beyond could share in the frivolous act of HP!

So what would some pay for a new block today.... Because there are many around. I will bet no one would list there needs and what they are willing to pay as if they would the want section would show this buy simply say Wanted Race Block- I have X amount of cash and am ready to buy.



I got offers of 30 cents on the dollar for a sim. R3 block from one fella that could buy 10 at the new price(a multi hemi car owner) that lives in a 7500 sq ft house, with 5 mopars in his garage..... Ive got maybe a year left from the lung cancer reaper but I will bury 4 new blocks before I give them away at 30-50 cents on the dollar as some graciously have offered. Thanks my mopar brothers....not.

One other new 4 bolt race block Ive over a grand in machine shop receipts.... Was offered $1500.

What are you asking for them... whats your bottom
line price.. and what are they

Edit....I missed church yesterday Im in deep trouble.

I will pm you some info today....

I'm waiting on a price too, hate to drive to that far but it is what it is.

BTW 20 years ago I didn't have the disposeable cash to invest in one.

^^This^^.

Funny thread.......some of us weren't blessed with good timing. While blocks may be getting limited, I see more & more old speed parts getting brought out to the swapmeets. Enjoy it while ur young.

Same old story.......guys bemoan the lack of aftermarket support, yet didn't buy it when it WAS available, because their main complaint was a Chevy block was X dollars and the Mopar was more. Well, same as then....IF your main objective is cost, build a Chevy. Parts are out there, just have to loosen up the purse strings to purchase them.

As far as the Pontiac stuff........they sell it as fast as they can make it. Butler has a serious back log of alum block, aftermarket headed motors on the build docket. They don't care what it costs, they just WANT it and don't complain about paying for it

Responses here seem typical of Mopar guys....

It's not surprising to me that Fiat Chrysler decided to stop making blocks. The market for those blocks is a speck compared to their overall sales. The profit made on them doesn't even rise to the level of a rounding error to their bottom line. It's obvious that Fiat couldn't care less about supporting an ancient Mopar engine design from 45+ years ago, because they're looking ahead. Can you really blame them? That's my take on it, anyway.

I don't know that I would need Mopar's permission or rights to design my own block that fit their original heads.........You would need their permission to use their tooling though, but not if I designed and built my own.

But with the skwimish bunch of kids that aren't willing to pay what aftermarket block used to cost, who buys the new ones? Not seeing many takers here, and I am also not seeing that many youngsters at the drags anymore....I have purchased three to date myself, and I would like to think I am not nearly as well off as some. Will I purchase another? Maybe. I would love another, preferably a wedge, but I have a mint 400 I might use up first. Would I ever put chevy in my car, that is a no.

So what is left, KB, Indy, HP, and maybe the 392 guy that is rumored to be almost ready...Or big $$$$ for old used up swap meet stuff. It won't be long before the aftermarket ones go up in price too...

I bought a Bill Mitchell aluminum RB block about 7 weeks ago. $5500 . 1st new block for me. I cracked 2 stock blocks (505 cu. in.) , each lasted 4 years. I am pretty sure that Indy and Bill Mitchell were the only blocks available.

We called up Bill Mitchel, he had a few in stock. We had it in less than a week. It should be going on the dyno today. Hopefully!! 540 cu. in.

There is a Mega block with bushed lifter bores and 55mm roller cam bearings in race parts section for $4000
also an R1 340 block in the race parts section for $1200, if the people whining about them not being available really need them both of the blocks would have sold already IMO....maybe they dont need them and are just whining about lack of support of racing from Chrysler

LOL! We need an icon for beating a dead horse. Just sayin'...

So now that we've got the complaining out of the way and know what the problems are, lets answer the bigger question.

How do we fix it? How do we(all mopar enthusiasts) fix the issue of the blocks being made and further more aftermarket parts availability?

I'll offer up some suggestions as I'm thinking(dreaming) out loud here.

One idea is to pool resources.

Who here has access CMM machine(component measuring machine) and access to an aftermarket or original BBM block to make all of the necessary critical dimensions?

Who has the expertise and time to analyze the data and build a 3d model from that data?

Who can volunteer there time to look over the finished 3d model and make the necessary improvements or changes in the original design?

Who has the expertise to write the necessary CNC program for the block?

Who has access to a CNC machine?

Who has access to billet alumiminum that can donate or discount the use of a billet to make the block?

Who has access to the necessary heat treating to get the block treated?

Who's willing to test the finished block prototype?


The problem with this is that noone makes money and you still end up with an expensive product. The question between is it more important to have a developed block available for anyone to buy or is more important to make the money. I know one thing is for sure, there is no cheap answer to this problem and if we're honest with ourselves, we all know this. Well, unless I win the lotto lol.

Of course, I'm dreaming in suggesting this "Mopar Team of Mutual Interests" project but I've always been a dreamer.

I have a R1 block in my car now so no whining here, just the facts. No way I'd buy the block in the for sale section with out a sonic check and it being magnafluxed. The cylinder walls in the R1 are not as thick as some people seem to think they are.

Did you look at the photo of the R1? Did you notice anything?

I didn't know I needed a better block until my 408 was torn down and the cam and main bearings showed signs of block flex. There was no way I was going to step up the power with that block. Why take a chance and ruin some good parts?

Even if I had needed one back then I didn't have the cash to buy it. My family came before my hobby. As far as the Chevy stuff goes, it's cheaper, more power to them.

As someone else posted I don't recall seeing a Pontiac powered race car at any of the bracket races I've been to in the last 10-12 years. The Hot Rod Reunion yes, bracket races, no.

The R block is a 59° set up. It has no provisions for use of six cylinder head bolts and can't run W7,8,9 heads. It is also only a two bolt main block. Not real good for a race block.

It is my understanding that you can still get Mopar big blocks just not small blocks.

I could do all of this

But

There is no way I would

Whatever I came up with would be either too expensive, the wrong options or whatever.

Ritter has been too cheap with whom he sends his machining too, the quality control just isn't there.

The only way I see something happening is you get 1 type of block, with these options. Adding options just drives the cost up.

If there was money to be made in blocks for Mopars, Dart would be making them. Dick Maskin was involved in the early Pro Stock Truck programs, some of the early W8 heads were cast at Dart. So it's not like they're no stranger to Mopars, Dick Maskin is a business man.
The main reason the Ritter blocks exist is because Kent has a crap load of P7 heads in storage. The wedge blocks are just an after thought of sorts.

The dude with the 6-sec X275 Challenger is having stout 3rd gen blocks made. Why not support him and order one to get costs down? You'll be further ahead with a hemi than an old R3/W motor IMO.

Doesn't matter that you've seen no local Pontiacs at your local race tracks. What matters is my Poncho buddy has cash deposited with Butler and he's on a 3 month lead time for a block. Point being: they are selling.

Exactly my point. If they can make a Pontiac block and sell it for around 3K there is a market for them. I still believe the market for Mopar blocks is larger than for Pontiac blocks.
Doug

Doug I agree with you - there IS a "Market" for them however the COST is not what the "Market" is willing to pay. As said many times over the Mopar crowd is too cheap to spend the $$$$ so they stay with stock blocks and blow em up and complain. The Pontiac crowd will spend the $$$$ needed and the Mopar crowd is trying to stay alive with 50 year old blocks.....

I'll try this again, maybe it was missed earlier.
Indy is apparently out of blocks right now. Are they still casting them, or is the outlook of ALL aftermarket blocks very bleak?

Yep...the crowd is so cheap that i choose not to offer for sale a 540" Mega Block motor because i don't feel like being insulted with the usual lowball offers ...if there were any replies at all.
The much cheaper '70 440 and a '74 400 blocks would sell quickly.

As the rapper Notorius B.I.G. once said, "It was all a dream" lol.

As you stated, expense is the biggest reason why this problem exist. Too expensive to build and too expensive for the market to buy.

I wish you guys would stop saying MOPAR guys are cheap. Some Mopar guys are truly CHEAP but put some thought into what you are saying. As a group Mopar racers spend MORE to run our cars compared to Chevy guys. I buy deals that come along almost weekly but some guys are to suspicious of a good price and by time they pry their wallet out of their back pocket the DEAL is gone. LOL

Well the truth is 90% of Mopar guys are notorious cheap asses. It is just a fact of life. There are some of us willing to spend money to run fast but we are few and far between. When Mopar guys ask what it takes to run this well and you tell them the look of shock in their face is incredible. I am not sure why honestly. Guess they ASSUME the Chevy guys doing it are making it happen with way less money. Since I have one of those as well I can tell you the price to run fast is not a lot different. The big issue when you wanna go fast is the available parts to choose from. EVERYONE has more choices than we do, well maybe not Oldsmobile guys....

^^ well the problem is some guys, well a lot of guys charge 4 times what a repop item costs that looks the exact same for example. Grills, interior items and such. Another example. 46 year old hemi block. Guy was asking about $800 cheaper then the big bore aftermarket block. Sorry but I'm going brand new aftermarket block that'll need an 1/8th of the machining costs. But most will go with the $800 cheaper one. Won't even get into another guys '1975 340 six pack block' Chevy/Gm/ guys created a demand for aftermarket blocks, and they got it cause they were sick and tired for paying stupid money on BBC (which most can't even give away now thanks to the aftermarket). Don't think it's the fact of being cheap as is the fact that some people are way out to lunch on there pricing.

PBR I was thinking that the other day, alot of money gets burned up just to have an entry level mopar, the same money would put one in high cotton in a chevy.

I don't disagree with the too cheap/thrifty(however you want to put it)argument.
The question would be: what is the affordable threshold for a good iron block? Is it +/- $3000 ... $4000+? how much are most willing to pay?

Personally i wouldn't have a problem paying $3000-$3500 for an iron block if it didn't have to have $1000+ worth of machining after.

Am i too cheap?

When they were last available you could get one for UNDER 3K just about anywhere. Now the sky is the limit I suppose, I have a couple iron blocks that I don't forsee letting go of as we will use them eventually.

How does one proceed to get ahold of him let alone get one made?
I would be interested in this!
Matt

I believe BES builds Rob Goss' engines.

BES builds a lot of Bada$$ [censored]..You can get a billet block done like they are. Not sure most Mopar guys can stomach the prictag

Goss had to have something made that can handle 2500hp. Reason is that the "Mopar" Aluminum 6.1 block cant hang, the DECKS were lifting. As a last ditch effort they put together a filled, billet cap stock 6.1 block and it lasted 12 passes before the mains let go, I think it was the mains anyway. I THINK Goss is going billet block and Apache heads instead of vice versa. X275 has a billet rule, you can have a billet block OR billet heads not both IIRC.

Yes, you are too cheap.

No offense, but you can put more than 1k into a stock block. If you buy a new block, how do you expect to NOT set the deck heights, check the main line and size it because one size don't fit all, bore and hone it, because one size don't fit all etc.

This is EXACTLY why the pee on Pontiac guys have blocks. They pay. They [censored], but they pay. The Chrysler guys just [censored]. Been that way since 1979 when I started.

Not going to happen at that price, try a lot closer to $6k now a days....I have bought three, and all of them needed work. Some fixes were easy, some you had to live with, some were expensive to fix. They have to be checked over very carefully, but all have issues that need addressed.

A Predator costs more than a comparable BB Chev, But Mopar guys are cheap? Pontiac guys will pay more? This looks like what we are willing to pay Pontiac iron block from Butler; ALL-APR3SD4804 Standard Deck Height, 3" Mains $3195.00. I still think it is because for the majority of builds the stock block will suffice. Cheap? BS. We pay more for most parts than a Chevy. Why does that make us cheap? But still willing to pony up for what it takes cause it's what I like to do and what I want. I certainly could go faster with a Reher & Morrison Chev for far less than my stuff. But Mopar guys are cheap? Right? BS It's the individual, not the brand.
Doug

No offense taken. I asked the question.
I guess i'll just use what I have til my budget doesn't include house payments.

As a machinist i would have a problem receiving a new performance block that had to be align honed before being able to use it & with today's equipment the decks should be within .002-.003

A truer word has never been spoken.

Well since Reher and Morrison was brought up and some seem to think building a Chevy is cheaper. They have an all aluminum 632 12 degree raptor motor dry sump motor with an aluminum block on their site. It lists for $37495 and makes 1280hp. Having just finished a Predator deal that is 27 fewer cubes and makes a few less hp I can tell you with 100% confidence I spent similar money on mine for a similarly equipped engine. Even with the sheet metal intake and extra carb. True they have a few more HP than mine does but price is comparable, within a couple grand, and at this level whats a couple grand??

Just my opinion but I think when people complain about the price of a Mopar engine they are discussing run of the mill bracket stuff. Once you get serious about making power the cost differences begin to go away. I also feel many of the Mopars I see out there run better than similarly equipped GM stuff. IE aftermarket headed stock block stuff for sure. For instance the motor in our dragster is thrown together with stuff lying around our garage and makes close to 700hp and is a stock stroke stock block 446. It runs better than some of the BBC stuff with way fancier parts for sure.

FWIW They don't give away GM aluminum blocks, billet cranks all cost the same, the best lifters are all priced the same, cam cores, etc etc etc....

I've said for years that "good" parts cost about the same regardless the make.

Seen a bare set of J-heads all the time on Ebay in the $700 range. Really? Ya no. Not the point of being cheap.. some of these sellers need to be reasonable. Seen used R1 blocks with asking prices of nearly new too. Like come on guy lol.

Many of them can't afford a roller cam and lifters, so billet aluminum blocks are definitely out of the question!

So Dave you're trolling now? Don't you have some lug nuts to polish? lol

I agree with most of this. As I am sure you will agree Al, there are a lot more options priced less on used GM race engines that eclipse 1300HP. BTW, my Predator has cost me much more than yours with all of the custom, one off things I had to have made, blow ups and rebuilds, and I don't have your connections.
The other problem is, as the OP stated, no aftermarket blocks available for those of us needing them unless HP performance is still producing, and I think he is.

Contact HHP tuning in Delaware, ask for Bruce he has all the details.

What a load of bs that mopar guys are cheap. If all of a sudden overnight Dart sold 230-250lb weight mopar blocks to handle 1000-1200hp odd, including a low deck option, at chevy prices, plenty of mopar blocks would run out the door. You'd think we all ENJOY working with 1960-70's relics from the junkyard? NO.

R3 blocks are apparently available at Jegs....aren't these the blocks that people want??

http://www.jegs.com/i/Mopar-Performance/312/P4876381AB/10002/-1?parentProductId=

IIRC someone tried to order one and the ship date kept getting pushed back, the block was never shipped.

Jegs and Summit were famous for listing a crapload of R3 blocks..... but they were not available. They even at times showed 10 available. That particular block listed is the one I showed earlier and is THE LAST 48* block mopar has. Deal breaker for most is that it is a 9.0 deck, no cast motor mounts, and dry sump only. The first two most racers could work around, but the dry sump deal pretty much rules out any stock chassis car I believe. Don't think you'd have room for the proper oil pan with a stock type K. Maybe I'm wrong, but looking at the dry sump pan on my spare R3/W8 deal it's going to be really close even with my tube K.

DVW and I have this argument/discussion seemingly almost on a weekly basis.

First I don't think Mopar guys are cheap... everyone has a budget on what they can spend. Some have more, some have less. But what we have to spend isn't inherently dependent on our pentastar badges on the valve covers.

Every loyal brand racer will tell you they are cheap. My Pontiac friends tell me there is no one cheaper, my olds buddies will tell you the same, etc... To be honest, you could argue that cheap people are actually drawn to the Chevy/Ford(especially small blocks) because it's your cheapest option to go racing.

Considering that there are practically NO desirable racecars from Ma Mopar from the mid 70's on (sorry J, M, F body guys!), it's pretty hard to compete with the Mustangs and Camaro's built through the 80's and 90's. They are cheap and plentiful, which automatically gives them a leg up on volume that we can't compete with.

We're not talking about Predator's, Hemi 99's, 4.900 block B1-TS, or other very high end exclusive type race stuff. Those engines represent the cream of the crop, and as mentioned it doesn't matter what brand it is... they all cost near equal money.

The crux of the matter is... the 500~1000hp racers. Those types of motors are going to be built most often, and will have the most buying power to get parts made.

What it all comes down too is can someone make enough money producing these blocks to make it worth their while. It costs a LOT of money to build block tooling... but can cost even more for set up fee's every time you do a "run" of blocks, there are setup fee's evertime you do a machining operation setup (CNC), etc.. So what does it take to sell these blocks at a profit?

What it comes down to is this... if someone could sell these blocks at a decent price and make money doing it... they would. Dart, World, Mopar, etc... they are all in business to make money by selling blocks.

Ford/Chevy guys get the benefit of doing HUGE runs of these parts. So if you have a $10k setup cost, and you pour 50 mopar blocks at once... you're eating $200 into each block for profitability (or the price of the block increases by $200). If you can run 1000 chevy blocks, then the setup cost is only $10 divided across each block. This goes for the production operations... casting, machining, purchase of main caps, shipping, etc... It all adds up.

You would think that this market would be RIPE... there are ZERO blocks available. You should be able to command whatever price you want. Yet Koleno set prices at $3800 (assuming that's what it took to make low volume production profits) and there were hardly any sold. (admittedly I am speculating the reason the Koleno block didn't work out was because of sales, I don't know if there were other factors, but you'd think if you could make money, you'd keep going once you had the tooling done). Mopar couldn't get 100 blocks ordered to even bother making the production run.

World block HAS the tooling, it's already paid for... and yet they STILL don't think they can make a profit by casting any for us.

I am SURE that comes from the length of time it took them to sell their last batch. No one is going to justify spending money to make those blocks, if the data doesn't back up that they could be sold.


DVW made a very good point to me this week... How many 400/440 blocks were made? From what I can tell there were around 750k 440's, and ??/ 400's? I'm assuming there are a LOT more 400's then 440's, but couldn't say for sure. If we include 383's there are an additional 3 million of those. What will a big block mopar handle for power? Lots of them making 700hp... You could argue +/- 50~100hp from there, but lets assume 700hp.

So we had MILLIONS of blocks made, still available for cheap, that will hold arguably 700hp? I believe that right there is what KILLS the market for big block mopars. How many guys are left that want to make 700+hp? Not to mention couple that with the lack of cost effective cylinder head to make much more then that. (this is also the argument why all of the heads produced are at the near max potential as the blocks will hold, what good would a $1500 set of heads that flow 450cfm do for you, if there are no blocks)

The argument is that when the 400/440 blocks dry up, or appetite for more people wanting more power happens, only THEN will we see a viable market for these blocks.

you could even bring into this conversation when Brandon (440 Source) looked at having a B block produced a number of years ago. I believe he came to the realization that profit wasn't in the formula.

R blocks.... W8 heads.... you get right down to it, I feel like a typical Mopar guy. Living in the past with parts that are hard to find.... just at a different level.

They are NEVER going to be the price of a GM iron block period...If you cannot face that fact nor are willing to pay a little extra then its not wonder why they do not make them. Most Mopar guys are content running low 10's and high 9's and that don't cost a lot of money or really require an aftermarket block. Look around at the racetrack. I would say that range encompasses 95% of the Mopar cars racing at the track..

LOL. Sorry but I gotta laugh at this one. You make it sound like Mopars only in this group. Take the dragsters out of this and 95% of all makes are in the low 10's high 9 group.

I have attended Mopar events all across the country and will stand by my statement. Most the 6-700hp crowd stay there because they dont wanna pony up the dough to build more power. Talking to the guys I have the biggest gripe I hear is about the cost of parts to go faster. So what conclusion should one draw? You hear people complaining about parts costs on here all the time, just look at this thread. One thing if you are content to run a high 9 second car and many guys are and that's great. I am not talking about those folks, they are smart have a budget to race and stick to it. Its the guys who complain about wanting more power then complaining about the cost of this part or that part. Or the unavailability of those parts when they wont pay the price when they are available. But complaining about the cost of parts and stating would be cheaper to go brand X deal sure sounds like cheap to me.

I am fairly confident we could build a BB Mopar for just under 20K and make 4 digit HP. Did it last year and we are currently building one for my son now. Who is not rich by any means, just a blue collar working stiff like his old man. He wants to go faster with a Mopar powered car. He gets it, you want to play you got to pay..The parts are out there, youjust have to look and be ready to purchase the stuff when its available. As for the oost of the blocks out there, supply and demand. If no one is making a cast iron aftermarket block then exactly what are the ones I have worth then???? Should I sell them for less than new price, if so why. There are not anymore being made now.

As someone already said, there is a mega block available right now in the race section that is a proven piece for $4000. With the machine work it has in it, it's a steal. If he still has it, and someone needs it, it should be sold. 55mm cam tunnels are expensive, and all of the other trueing and squaring is too. And I know the block. It made north of 1200 HP with a 572 Predator. It even has a custom set of aluminum mains! So, as Al said, you can find them.

And yet it still sits. Guys think they can buy a block and NOT do machine work to it. Glad I'm retired.

When I worked at Hi Speed is was involved with a 632 Donovan build. The customer paid for the best of the best for everything in it. Every part that went in it had to be machined, massaged, modified, or repaired before it would fit, from the block to the $800 valve covers. Even the $3200 sheet metal intake leaked water on the dyno.

There is no such thing as a cheap or bolt together high end race motor.

Kauffman sells iron Pontiac blocks for $2995, aluminum blocks for like $4395.

I have to believe the Mopar market is as strong as the Pontiac market.....but maybe I'm wrong.

You know we often talk about the same thing. The only real answer that we've come up with is that the 455 blocks aren't very good to start with for even moderate power... and there aren't many 455 blocks left?

I agree, stock Poncho blocks aren't that strong, especially in the lifter bore area..... But that would be an argument to be able to sell them for even more $$$.

For $2995 you get billet main caps too!!

That's basically BB Chevy money.

That is a great price for what it is... the only thig is not is not what most guys want, 55mm cams and such are not for everyone.

Yeah well try calling around to find that 55mm cam and you will get your eyes opened a little more. Riddle me this brethern of pentastar, right now there are less than 25 BB mopar wedge blocks on order at Mopar. WHY? I do believe there are some wedge blocks coming from mopar. Big Blocks. The small block stuff is gone I believe. I have been neck deep in the mopar business for over 20 years and I can count the R3 blocks that I have sold or worked on, on one hand. Nobody calls about it and never did really. The hemis have been available since the beginning of the year. I shipped three today. My point is if you want them to make them saddle up and order one. NOTHING is going to get made until you show a demand for it. None of the aftermarket players ever really made anything for SB Chryslers. BB and hemis way different story. That is why the SB stuff is probably gone for good. Chrysler was the only one who had a financial interest in selling it. The hemi blocks and BBs will continue but it has always been the hard road and that is why they ooh and ah when you pull in. NOBODY cares about a SB chevy nova. Pop the hood on a HEMI RR and and watch the kiddies get all google eyed.
TOdd

55mm cams are avalible through lsm, comp,callies & crane...... The last cam I bought was 6 months ago and was $650...took about three weeks to get....

Yes that was the case. Lsm has none, Comp gets them from LSM, I actually had Jeg Coughlin himself involved in tracking one down. Still took 4 weeks but yes we did finally get one after 4 months. BTW I just talked to the guys at Mopar and the block situation just took another big hit. I will explain later as it will take a little while to type and momma has dinner plans....Todd

LS swaps for everyone!

Screw LS swaps...I need a Gen 3

LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwZwkrbhtcA

Last time i talked to my engine builder(2 weeks ago). he said he had a cam on order for mine. Lsm 54mm 4/7 swap. he said it was on its way.

I just hope the aftermarket will jump on the G3, it appears to be a great platform.

I think the reluctance of people to order bb blocks from Mopar is because it's an open ended excersize.
Will I get one? If they make them, when will that happen?
Most guys who have been messing with Mopars for any length of time know how unreliable of a source ole Ma is about getting stuff into the hands of consumers.

IMO, many people looking to build 700-900hp motors, who would buy a block if they could get one, want to move forward with a project and be able to work within a reasonable time line.
When you don't have, or can't get, a block...... The whole thing is at a stand still.

Blocks are out there from Mopar. This one came west not long ago

It is, but they havent. Comp has some cams, Jesel some rockers and Manley has valvetrain. The stock heads are so good that there is only one game in town for aftermarket heads, Thitek, and they are sweet and reasonably priced. MSD makes ignitions for them with coils that dont gain anything. Indy makes a bunch of junk for them too.

Ok
Here is the current block deal with Mopar Performance. This info came from Mopar itself. The new Hemi and wedge blocks are being poured at the Dalton foundry in Indiana. The hemis have been shipping since late last year but recently have sped up. The wedge not yet that I have seen or heard. I personally have shipped about 12 of the new hemi blocks. From Dalton they go to a machine shop in Michigan. They machine the blocks and ship them to Arrow Racing also in Michigan. Arrow does final honing and packaging only. From there they go out to the dealers who order them. The machine shop that does the block work just told Mopar in the last few weeks that they are no longer going to do the blocks and that the company is being sold or some such crap. That leaves Mopar scrambling yet again to find a machine shop to do the work. This has more to do with the CHrysler corporate procurement process than anything. Mopar just told me that this process may take up to 6 months or longer but they are trying to speed that up. It is possible and mayby even likely that there are still blocks in the system that may leak out still over the next few weeks. After that who knows? My conversation also included the small block stuff and as I had suspected there are NO plans to remake these blocks anytime soon if ever. They are not even sure where the tooling is, or if it is even usable now or in the future. SORRY to be the harbinger of doom but that is what is going on.
Todd

AAARRRGGGHHH! I'm getting depressed..........

Maybe I'll hold on to my r3 block instead of selling it. Might b a collectors item. Lol.

My buddy buys wrecked SRT8's and parts them out.

He has 6.1's stacked like cordwood.