Ok fellas I'm stumped.

Here is the issue. Our dragster has what can best be described as a "starter" motor in it. It is a 446 with 11-1 compression a set of ported -1's(350cfm nothing crazy) and a small roller in it on E85, also been on gas as well. It is actually the motor for my 68 D100.

Anyway we have been fighting an issue of not being able to get the motor up on the chip in the dragster. It simply wont come up cleanly. It has gotten better but has a weird issue. It will hang up at 3600ish and then climb to the chip RPM of 4600, to get this we have to bring the RPM up to 2200-2500 to get it this good. We have gotten it better with more timing but it is still there. Tried a different converter but no better. The only thing that has helped marginally is more timing. At this point it has more than Id like in it but also shows no signs of detonation yet. We are racing the car this week and just looking for suggestions. Car runs great once it leaves but it has been a pain to get it on the chip to leave.

So I am looking for suggestions> I still feel the converter is a large part of it as this thing makes little power. But it was never built to make a ton of power either. Was just built using stuff I had lying in the garage to get my kids feet wet. But this issue has me perplexed. FWIW it has gone 5.40 126 here in Vegas in a 1900lb dragster so far, so as you can see not a killer piece for sure. Wondering if maybe it is simply to much head flow as well??? Just kinda lost here and I don't like it

Al... check the wires on the dist pick up... try
reversing them and then check your timing(if you
are using the pick up)

Al does it only have this problem on e85? If so does it have enough pump shot?

What's the duration on the roller, Al? Wonder what would happen if you advanced the cam a little...

Does starting line engine temp matter? We had a low comp, chevy 509 with a big roller in an SST car that had to be warm to get up on the chip cleanly.

We have tried everey pump shot from .030-.065 and the issue does not go away. And yes we had the issue in Salt Lake but not as bad on gas. FWIW the DA there was 8000'ish. Last two weeks have been closer to 2500-3000'

MrP Tried that too, although it is simply an MSD billet dizzy. We have had to put in a ton of timing to it and think maybe something has moved there, tab etc cause if I told you what was in it now you would not believe it and neither do I. Just no easy way to check TDC right now to verify what we have found,. And yes we have used three timing lights.

Keep the ideas coming. I am open to any an all ideas for sure. Car is very consistent as is(we have 3 slips last week that were identical to 1000') but aint right either.

Out on a limb here but we had a similar problem once because of a loose chassis ground to the box. Might be worth check.

Billy that is on the list after this weekend, just to hard to get to any of it on the dragster. Never had an issue like this for sure. Car does keep going faster with every change Thing is snappy and fine with no load but just stops at 3600 pretty consistently before heading up to the chip. It is an E85 deal so we have plenty of heat in it we think. It wont really get much over 190, hot the water box at 180 and stage it from there usually close to that 180-190 number. Can tell you the intake and spacer are ICE cold even there and wondering if that might be part of it. But in Salt Lake it did it on gas and it was hovering in the high 90's there.

Have checked all the electrical stuff but will go over all of it again. We think there is easily a 5.20 in the thing. have not even touched jetting etc on the car yet. Kept adding timing as I was conservative to start as it is a stock block deal and it has gotten plenty faster just doing that.

As Just-a-Dart can attest the E85 thing is new to us. We try to keep the thing plenty warm. Not easy when it is in a dragster and the temps are in the low 50's here now. But since we had the issue in Salt Lake with temps in the 90's on gas not sure it is an issue. Maybe be exacerbating the problem but not the cause, at least I don't think so.

Well if it goes faster when you add timing and there
isnt any detonation... add more.. the numbers are wrong
for what ever reason.. just watch the plugs

Will it foot brake? Problem only on the 2 step?

Not sure honestly about the footbrake thing. I did take it to the top end tonight and just stabbed it a couple times and it did not seem thrilled with that either honestly. We have been racing so just dealing with this deal. The car is actually being used by someone else this weekend so tryting not to throw anything else at him, plus it is 5K a day Thur, Friday and 10K Saturday so trying to go some rounds and deal with it.

MrP I agree honestly. It has picked up a bunch with timing and nothing else. We have a BOATLOAD in it by the light but it cannot be correct. All three lights show 48+ degrees in it now. But the plugs don't tell the same story at all. We MAY ad more timing but we are racing now just looking for ideas to try after this deal, once I can verify the issue. IF we can get it ready early enough tomorrow will ad some more for the run for the money deal.

What heat range plug are you using with E85? This has been a tad frustrating to say the least. I want to keep adding timing but a little voice in my head keeps say whoa there

I have been running Autolite AR3933s in my 360-1 headed smallblock with good plug life.

Just watching, I'm new to the E-85 fuel too and still tuning the carb

It's the carb

I am thinking a bad capacitor in the control box causing issues...

It could be the carb, but have to clarify - does it act better or actually perform better (quicker/faster) with all of that timing in it?

If it is faster/quicker with 48º of lead....the plugs are too cold.

Al whats your air to fuel ratio,plug heat range,and plug gap, e85 is a great alternative for higher octane fuel and it has awesome cooling properties.

Al I used the same plugs as gas... I tried 1 step
hotter and didnt change at all.. I also ran 1 to 2
degrees more time on E-85

We all know there is no way it needs 48 degrees. It would definitely be in detonation. I vote for the timing not actually being that far advanced. Marks off? Retarding somehow during the run?
Doug

If I am reading and following the dialogue correctly....he had the same problem on gas - reference post #1958146.

From what I understand here...He is dealing with a compromised combination.

11-1 with aluminum heads and the typical camshaft profile will require a bunch of chamber heat or the glow plug effect of a abnormally hot plug - thus the reason for so much lead.....if in fact it did perform better with 48º (plus) and assuming TDC is accurate.

Could it be an over-rich condition when the accellerator pump duration overlaps the main circuit activation, which may happen to be at 3,600?

I've had issues with a bog/flat spot footbraking and been working on shortening the pump duration. Don't have an A/F meter yet.

Bringing the rpm up to 2,200-2,500 may start the main circuit, but it also reduces the volume and duration of pump shot delivery over what you get from idle.

A rich transition would do that, but I cant believe he used the same carb from gas to e85....on gas it would puff a cloud of black smoke during the occurrence....kinda easy to see on a pipe rack and freaky odds that two carbs would have the same problem.

I think it may be a common problem which could exist in both carbs. It's sometimes difficult to convince yourself that "less" is better as opposed to "bigger is better". It's not always obvious.

I recently replaced a well used engine with one having basically the same parts/combo. That changed the carb tune-up to the point that I originally thought I screwed something up in the build! Must have been the ring seal.

But as they say...."Leave no stone unturned." If expected fixes don't work, you have to start with the unexpected ones.

Does over-rich E85 cause black smoke as bad as gas?

If adding timing helps, it's going lean at that rpm. Could try smaller hi speed air bleeds.

TDC WAS accurate upon assembly. After I left for DC my son and a friend had to change balancers(from Chevy to Mopar front) so possibly there was an issue there I was not here so not sure. It happened on both gas and E85 with 2 different carbs. I have been overly cautious with the timing but cannot and do not believe it is actually at 48, am assuming that something has happened there. BUt the plugs are showing it wants more timing still. Definitely has me baffled for sure. Oh yeah did it with 2 different E85 carbs as well, so pretty sure it is NOT a carb issue.

Total w.a.g. on my part, but if it isn't a carb or ignition issue, I'd be suspecting the intake runner volume in conjunction with the small(er) engine size and moderate compression has a reversion issue at that low RPM. The slower burn rate of E85 vs gas would make it worse, too.

I've had that issue with e85 a couple times. One time it was cured by running 180 water temp. The lower the compression the more temp it wanted.

Chased another on e85 and wound up having someone wack the throttle while using 2 spray bottles with e85 in them, and shooting extra fuel in at the same time. Came right up, so we were already at max on the pumps, so fattened up the idle circuit a bunch and went small on the bleed too. Like just a dart was saying

I've been using vp C85 exclusively for a while now, and I'll never go back. Runs like gas, great cooling, and zero corrosion. Makes way better power than pump too. Straight up on the break in everything so far

Fun stuff Al.
If I could not use a spark plug type piston stop to verify TDC, and the plugs are a reasonable heat range.
I would keep putting timing in it until it quit improving or it slowed down and check the plugs to verify.

But I have also been known to color outside the lines.

If you don't have time to verify TDC.. add two degrees at a time until comes up on the brake cleanly. With the two step out of the equation equation I don't think you'll get 85 to detonate with that engine combo just my two cents.good luck 🚦👍

Happy TG ALL. Here's my 2 cents...You have a small motor with "big" heads and low compression (as you admit, it's using pieced together parts) I'll bet the biggest contributor is a dip in the torq curve not allowing the converter to drive thru to it's highest stall at the line. I think it's something a camshaft change could fix, might help advancing the current one. Among other 'minor' issues contributing to the problem that have already been discussed.

It's the converter/s, my I like the idea of no 2 step, go as high as the converter will go. My small block Chevy buddies do that all the time to get them to "go".

Sounds like you have narrowed it down to an ignition problem. First, I would drill a 3/8" hole in the cap inline from plug 1 to coil lead. Use a timing light to verify rotor phasing. I suspect it is off and spark is jumping to the next cylinder in line. If it does show OK, an easy patch would be wire up a timing retard to kick in just above launch rpm and crank up your base timing to get it up on the chip. To be safe, pull out the same amount to the retard module, that you are adding to base timing.

Al,
It sounds like the same problem I had with the 572 predator when I had a converter that was too tight for the head flow. Several things would help it besides that, but it would be cam, compression, can timing etc. I think you need a loose 8" converter. Also, put a piston stop in #1 and find TDC. If you are really running 48*, you already know that can't be good. Where does it dead stall? Is it lazy there too?

i am not sure if it will run 5.2s . my 499 only went 5.0s at the best.

hope you get it fiqured out.

I figure it's the carb

Do you have a compression gauge with you? Might be interesting to pull the plugs and spin it over and see what the cranking compression is. My guess is that it is super low.

I was going to say fat mid range, but you have tried two carbs. I had a fuel injector that was super fat in the mid throttle settings and caused similar grief. Will it flash when not fully up to temp? I am thinking of a test when it is as cold as you can without hurting parts. That might give you some info. You could also go way tight on plug gap for a test, to see if the ignition is going away (.020?)

Electrical

Got an A/F gauge on it? That could eliminate a fuel issue.

x2. If it isn't the carb (worth putting a wideband on it for a pass just to check), my next guess is just a combination of E85, the altitude, 11:1 CR, aluminum heads and a roller cam. On E85 I would be surprised if you could get it to detonate at all. Might be worth advancing the cam a couple degrees to get cylinder pressure up and pick up midrange torque to pull through the converter more cleanly.

I'm having similar isues with me car with E85 Al, it is intermittent though, not all th etime It made three time trial runs the last time out and didn't miss or hestitate, first round it stutter and missed the first hundred feet after letting go of the trans brake button, same thing the next day I let it idle on the starting line with the trans brake on until the top light comes on and I then floor it and let go of the trans brake button, the Biondo 400 Mega box releases the trans brake in the time I set in it to not red light. I've been fighting this problem on and off for the last year, it is not consitent so I'm not real sure if it is the ignition( the MSD 7AL2 failed last year and I had them repair it before racing started this year), carb or tranny or converter
I would verify TDC now before doing anything else with a brass TDC tool in the #1 spark plug hole
Edited, I may have a power valve issue,it is three years old now using E85 I'll check it next week when it warms up outside.

Back your idle/air screws out a turn and try it...
Good Luck

That's exactly what I was thinking.
I've dynoed a couple of moderate CR 440's with -1 heads and slightly too big of a cam, and they were pretty darn weak in that rpm range.
My feeling is in a combo like that if the cranking compression isn't absolutely high enough for the duration of the cam, that hole in the TQ curve will be pretty deep.

I don't know the specifics of your converter(or cam for that matter), but assuming the cam is close to 280@ .050, and I were looking to help this situation without digging into the motor, I'd try having the converter set of for more free speed and a flash stall speed of about 56-5800 and run the two step at 5000-5200.

I am not so sure I wouldn't try another ignition box. 48* is a ton, and that may be caused by a bad msd as well. seems like most everything else that makes sense has been mentioned. HTH, Beep

FWIW the converter is an 8" that is 6000 stall behind an 800hp motor. We now it was way tight for the combo so tried another one, no change other than a lot more RPM up top and 14% slip. We may have found an issue today with my son working on it as I was home most the day today. He is still working on it now and hopefully found something. Will report back and let you know if it is better tomorrow.

This is a very thrown together piece with parts we had lying around. We have a 511 on the stand but kinda want to get this deal sorted out first. It is a very compromised combo, I considered more compression but not wanting to dump a bunch of money in it used what was here. As for the cam I will have to find the card, I don't recall it being to crazy on duration and it is in 2 advanced and is on a typical mopar 108lsa. Not my favorite but once again was here and had it forever.

FWIW I saw a couple comments about not using a 2 step. Not sure that will help any here as the car seems to stumble and stop about 3600 or so, then after a short duration will jump up on the chip. I am sure if we unplugged it it would still "Stall" at 3600 before pushing through and going to converter stall?!? The issue is the temporary "Stall" at 3600 that will not go away, but we may have found an issue and will let you al know.

If its carb related then its in the main jetting, because when you see this happen you are on the floor, and I'm sure that at 3600 the main circuit is already flowing.

If the car has headers that are more suited towards the 800hp motor, like what is typical on a dragster these days(big tubes, short primary length, short collectors or mufflers), then that would reinforce my belief that it's the shape of the power curve, and the motors unwillingness to pull itself out of the big dip in TQ when the converter starts to put up a fight.
If it were a typical street/strip type chassis, I'd say add about 18"-24" of collector length and see what affect that had.

All of this assumes that in the end you rule out the carb & ignition as being the problem.

What plugs r u running. I would remove the int. Bleeds and try a 7 ngk to start but as I said inVegas, a 2 circuit conversion could be your friend.......

Electrical or ignition, does not explain why is seems to stall in the 3600 rpm range, struggling to get on the chip, but when it does get through it comes on up to 4600rpm. Nor is it likely the converter. People run super tight converters all the time with not huge HP motors, if they are heavy nitrous motors or similar. Struggling to get on the brake is nearly always a carb calibration issue. Doesn't matter that he tried two carbs. If both have similar calibrations, they will have similar issues.

I recently worked on an EFI nitrous car with a 865in motor. He said when you put it on the brake, it struggled to get there, but when you turned it loose, the motor stayed at 3600 and would come no further. Sounded like it was on a rev limiter. He was convinced it was the ignition box, ECU, plug wires, broken converter, whatever..........with me telling him the whole time, that is was the fuel tune. He messed with this thing for 3 months and changed everything on the car. When I finally saw it in person, it did EXACTLY as he said. When he turned the button loose, it sounded like it was on a limiter and the rpm flat lined on the graph at 3600 and would go no further. He could step off a little and get back in it and it came up fine. I told him again it was the tune........NO WAY was the response.....OK. I finally went over there and snatched the laptop out of his hands and put 25% fuel in it, at THAT rpm range and told him to try it. Did the same thing and "SEE" was his response........Hold on a damn minute, I told him........LOL! So then I removed THAT 25% fuel in that range, plus another 25% more and told him to try it. Came up like a champ and revved to the moon when he cut it loose. Handed him the laptop and told him to now go "fix" the Tune in that area. So why did I relate that story.........because to me, Al's issue seems fuel related. Too much or not enough in that rpm range, for the combo of air flow, converter and other parts he has

Well hang on to your hats we have figured out what this issue was, now we are working on some others that we created trying to fix this one. Anyway long story short as I have to be out there again tomorrow here is what we found. The starting line enhancer had a small leak at the cylinder. It was fluctuating the cylinder in and out causing the throttle to move and open at different increments. Crazy deal that was found late last night.

It is much better now but now, but not 100% still. We are now chasing the carb to get it right again. Just wish it was not at a big dollar bracket race.

Dom we have a -7 plug in the car. We played around with the car tonight on stands trying to get it on the chip cleaner. We have had to RICHEN the carb up a fair amount. Intermediate bleed is much smaller than where we started as is the squirter size. Also have smaller idle bleed in it now too and it is getting much better and gets up quicker and cleaner now. But we are still not happy and will keep working on it. Just feel bad for the driver, as it is a friend of my sons and we have given him a car with issues. FWIW it did run it's best ever as well, we will find those .20's eventually I am confident.

Dwayne you are dead on, to much header. I also feel a looser converter will help a ton. But that's a story for later.

Do what?

I'm confused....lol....not that that is abnormal, but....

So, you have tried three different carburetors and two different fuel sources and the one thing that helped was bumping the timing to 48º plus, correct?

Now you think that you have fixed/helped the issue with correcting a SLE problem and fattening up the mid range circuit, Correct?

If so....I don't know how the timing had any influence with a SLE problem and if it was lean, advancing the timing would have hurt, not helped...

I would assume you have returned the timing to a normal range after you fattened up the mixture and all is good?

If nothing else, makes for a good campfire story....

Al i would think a number 7 plug is board line cold for e85 and 11 to 1 compression just my 2 cents but when i made the switch over to e85 albeit a boosted motor but the car ran better with a set of normal temp range plugs then a set of colder ones like most suggested thats proably why you could get away with so much timing
I asked the question on page one about your afr and plug gap if you dont have a Wideband id suggest getting one
Good luck

Hey Al, is Hunter Walker in the drivers sat?

I always ran an NGK -8 plug in my deal.

I to run e-85 has been a learning curve over 2 years, as stated it will like 1 -2 more degrees of timing you can play with squirts and cams ,but one of the huge gains I found was changing plug heat range (ngk)from 8 to 7s just a thought. Mark sullens worked with me on the tune. I don't know if you recall I was trying to get the 1250 in tune finally switched to a 1050 went from 9.90 135 -137 to 2 weeks ago 9.63 142 mph I still have a convertor issue.as my 60ft is terrible 1.41- 1.46 just my issue check your plug heat range AL... I stage at 170 cross the stripe @ 180

We have been watching the plugs very closely BECAUSE of the number the timing tab is showing. I only gave that number to show how ludicrous it was. I do not believe it is anywhere near the number mentioned. But have not bothered to check any of it at the track as it is a pain to get to most the stuff in the dragster. Will worry about that at home. Needless to say the plugs look good. The plugs show no sign of detonation and heat range and timing look good. So that number is just a number nothing more. Will get that sorted out later as car is still at track this weekend.

No Hunter is not driving the car this weekend. He did at SCSN for us while we tried to sort out the deal. He has also driven it before. I don't fit in the car and my son still has not had the opportunity to get his license yet, that will happen in January. Hunter is a great driver and good friend. Been helping him with his Chevelle this weekend as well. And no doubt he will be wheelin the car again. Unless I feel like figuring out how to get my legs in the car but since I am not a dragster guy not likely to happen. I got it for the kid just cannot find the time to get him licensed.

The SLE was just not holding ANY certain RPM. It just was leaking air and moving wherever it wanted to. So full throttle was rarely that especailly at lower RPM's where it was really affecting things. Was also causing our 60's to move around run to run. All that is now gone, car is 60 footing consistently now and repeating numbers like it did the weak before.

We also had an issue with the delay box, TB switch or TB solenoid. Not sure which yet as we just swapped out all three at once. That came about from HUGE swings in reaction times, as in starting with crooked numbers. The person driving the car this weekend drives a blown altered normally and is generally pretty darn good on the tree side of things so we knew it was not him. Since the change he has averaged .009 on the tree.

In the end the major issue on the not coming up clean deal was the SLE not holding, when you would go to hit the throttle it would not always open fully, certainly never the same amount each time and made it very unhappy. Once we took the SLE off and the car got up on the chip easily. Adding fuel to the intermediate circuit just made it get up that much quicker and cleaner.

In the end I have learned enough about what E85 wants to feel much more comfortable with the stuff. Learned it don't like the cold for sure But we overcame that by just squirting gas in it in the morning to fire it and that was enough to overcome that. The fuel definitely like engine temp for sure. We have been 180 in the beams and it likes that for sure, not easy to keep heat in it in the dragster. It sure cools down quick. And lastly you gotta put some fuel to it. We are inching closer and closer to the .20's now and I am happy with this hodge podge combo of bits and pieces. Learn something new all the time. Also learned going to the gas station and paying a couple bucks for fuel aint so bad either

Al, Im not sure how it is over your way but E85 from the pump here in Australia apparently varies too much, you might E75 or 90 ?? I was told to buy it in drums for consistency, cost is a little more but still cheap.

My 2cents (only about 1.4 US)

Glad to hear you found the problem. It wasn't anything to do with using E-85 as fuel.

Let us know what was going on with the timing mark when you get it back to the garage and have time to work on it.

OK, I am just brain dead this a.m., what is SLE?


Steve

Starting Line Enhancer.

What ever happened with the 48 degree Timing? Was it really that far advanced?
Doug

Doug and anyone else that wonders we never bothered to look at it at the track. Just kept adding timing to it til the stumble cleared up and watched the plugs. I looked at it yesterday and my son marked the distributor base with a sharpie when he had it removed once. That line is almost dead on where we had it originally at 33 degrees, maybe a tad/skosh/smidgen farther advanced. Will look at it in a few weeks, when I have time. I am sure the Chinese pointer is to blame or something similar.