499 RB pump-gas cam suggestions 3.23 gears. - 10/26/1512:34 AM
Hey guys, finally I am able to throw some accumulated stroker parts at my '71 Satellite Sebring. My first MoPar was a '66 Coronet with a mild 440 (Street Hemi cam, headers, Street Dominator intake, etc.) and I always loved the cruiseability of 3.23 cogs with the Torqueflite. The 499 will have Wiseco 15cc dish pistons and either 78cc milled & ported Stealth heads or the new TrickFlows, so the compression will be roughly the same (10.5:1). I want to run a 2500 stall (11") converter, so it can have a little lope to it, but I will need some vacuum for driveability. I have the largest shelf Comp hydraulic retro-roller cam (242/248-110LSA) and the largest shelf solid street-roller (262/262-110LSA) as well as a custom solid street-roller (255/255-110LSA), both Comp grinds as well. I even have an old Isky 505-T oval track roller (248/248-108LSA) that seems to be a gentle ramp cam but wide lash, low (.531") lift and ancient design. I will be using a RPM intake, 870 Holley carb and 1-7/8" Hooker headers with a full 3" exhaust. Ideas? Thanks in advance! RB
You'll want to stay small if you're going to be freeway cruising with 3.23 gears. If the cam is too big then you'll just suck up the gas going down the highway since the engine will be inefficient at cruising RPM.
I'd use the Comp hyd roller if you're willing to spend the money on the lifters and the correct springs to run it. That old Isky might work. Personally if it was my engine I'd use the Mopar .528 solid flat tappet. The MP .528 works really well for street driver stroker engines with tall rear end gears.
Thanks Andy. I have used the .528 in a 360 and boy was it mild (15"hg vacuum)! I was wanting more lope (sound) than the .528 but I like the wider LSA. The lash adjustments are no big deal, so a hydraulic roller was just a thought. I saw where you ran that cam (XHR292) in a 505" motor with 2 x 4's and said it was pretty tame and vacuum friendly, but 3.23s are asking alot I realize. I may try something bigger than the .528 and go to 3.55s if the converter doesn't lock (couple efficiently) at 65mph or so. If I were going 3.91 or 4.10s I could put flat-tops and a race roller in there, durability and vacuum be damned. LOL
OH, and I have 929 Comp springs and the Comp retro-roller lifters brandy new, so it's a possibility to run the hydraulic roller for sure. Durn decisions!!
My Duster has a pump gas 500" big block in it, 3.55 gears, 9.5" Dynamic converter, 275/60/15 rear tires, and the 557 purpleshaft cam along with Manual brakes. The 557 has plenty of lope and sound, nobody believes it's that small of a cam.
I really want to put 3.23 gears in it and tighten the converter, but it is barely loose enough for it to idle properly in gear. It idles at 1300 in park and 950 in gear, I've played around with everything in the carburetor but can't make it idle lower in park without shutting off in gear.
I'm probably gonna install some 3.23 gears over the winter and go with a slightly taller brand of 275/60/15. If the converter slips too much I'll put the 3.55 gears back in. I drive this car alot, it's a blast, but I've learned that the cam and converter have to be happy together.
I would suggest the 242@.050 intake duration option. I run a fast rate solid 243@.050 in a similar 496 combo with 3.23 and MT. Works well and has (just) enough vacuum for power brakes after tuning. It pulls well from the lower 2000 RPM range and that sounds like what you need/want.
Yes, I did do a 505 engine with the 292 HR cam but if you take a close look at the article you'll see that the compression ratio was more than 12:1 so that helped a bunch.
That cam will make nice power in your setup but I'm not so sure you'll be very happy cruising down the highway. A freeway flyer with 3.23 gears needs to have the engine set up so it is working really efficiently in the lower RPM range. Otherwise you'll just suck the gas tank dry.
For giggles I`d go the the ISKY cams website and check out the shelf grinds for Mopars and you`ll see basic recommendations based on comp, gears and verts which will give you a good idea......
I have used that Comp cams solid roller in a 499 engine. Unless you have more convertor and gear that what you said, I don't think you will like it. It has allot of lope to it, and it took my 3100lbs to 10.0's, so it will make HP. For what you are wanting to do though, it may be a little much. But, I think you know that already. LOL
For giggles I`d go the the ISKY cams website and check out the shelf grinds for Mopars and you`ll see basic recommendations based on comp, gears and verts which will give you a good idea......
Sure, but in my experience their suggestions are inaccurate even for a 440. Looking for real world experiences with pump gas RB strokers. I have done a 416 smallblock with roughly the same compression (10.5) as this 499 project, but it was in a 3100lb Demon with 3.91 gears and a 3000+ stall. The SB strokers tolerate cams pretty good, I had a 259/263-110LSA Ultradyne solid in it, which idled choppy but was real streetable in that combo. I was hoping to roller cam this one and pull off the 3.23/2500 stall setup. Thanks!
I have used that Comp cams solid roller in a 499 engine. Unless you have more convertor and gear that what you said, I don't think you will like it. It has allot of lope to it, and it took my 3100lbs to 10.0's, so it will make HP. For what you are wanting to do though, it may be a little much. But, I think you know that already. LOL
Always greedy to a fault when it comes to cams, I want them to do everything. LOL
The cam test article I did a long time ago is still the only multi-cam, in-car test of a Mopar stroker that I'm aware of. One thing I learned doing all of that testing is that a street car loses a lot of useable power if the overlap gets too big. On my car the bigger cams would kill the bottom end but not add much power on the top end. The smaller cams boosted the low end torque without killing much top end power.
My car had 3.54 gears and a 5 speed Doug Nash box so it was geared way lower than you. It was driveable with a big cam, but the .528 made it a lot more fun to drive since there was so much power available right off idle.
Another good reference point is the Chevy 502 crate engine. That is a super popular engine that goes into all sorts of street rods and daily drivers. It is a pump gas engine with 9.6 compression and the cam is only 224/234 at 050. So the engineers at GM went way mild on the cam. I really don't think you want to be 20 degrees bigger than the ZZ502 cam.
There is a member that has a first generation charger with a stroker 3.23 gear and stock converter that runs mid 11's and evedently is a good driver. Dwayne Porter designed the can on that one. Hopefully someone knows/his screen name. I'm good with faces not names. Bsb67 is his name. It has HP exhaust manifolds also.
For giggles I`d go the the ISKY cams website and check out the shelf grinds for Mopars and you`ll see basic recommendations based on comp, gears and verts which will give you a good idea......
Sure, but in my experience their suggestions are inaccurate even for a 440. Looking for real world experiences with pump gas RB strokers. I have done a 416 smallblock with roughly the same compression (10.5) as this 499 project, but it was in a 3100lb Demon with 3.91 gears and a 3000+ stall. The SB strokers tolerate cams pretty good, I had a 259/263-110LSA Ultradyne solid in it, which idled choppy but was real streetable in that combo. I was hoping to roller cam this one and pull off the 3.23/2500 stall setup. Thanks!
Just a guideline for sure. Well then, here`s my real world "ISKY" experience.......470 low deck, 12.1.1 comp..680-.660 276-281 @ .050 108 lsa solid roller in at 104+ 4.10`s and 9.79 first pass off the trailer but WAY different than your combo........
For giggles I`d go the the ISKY cams website and check out the shelf grinds for Mopars and you`ll see basic recommendations based on comp, gears and verts which will give you a good idea......
Sure, but in my experience their suggestions are inaccurate even for a 440. Looking for real world experiences with pump gas RB strokers. I have done a 416 smallblock with roughly the same compression (10.5) as this 499 project, but it was in a 3100lb Demon with 3.91 gears and a 3000+ stall. The SB strokers tolerate cams pretty good, I had a 259/263-110LSA Ultradyne solid in it, which idled choppy but was real streetable in that combo. I was hoping to roller cam this one and pull off the 3.23/2500 stall setup. Thanks!
Just a guideline for sure. Well then, here`s my real world "ISKY" experience.......470 low deck, 12.1.1 comp..680-.660 276-281 @ .050 108 lsa solid roller in at 104+ 4.10`s and 9.79 first pass off the trailer but WAY different than your combo........
Oh yeah! I love Isky stuff, BTW. I built a flat-top 471 B for our FED rail dragster and with Eddy heads (fully ported) and a Racer Brown 280@.050" with .660" 108LSA roller it runs 7.90s with a 4.30/Powerglide combo. Tunnel ram with 2 x 850s on gasoline and zoomies! This 499 street motor is hopefully going to be done around 5500rpm with the RPM intake and standard port heads, so I gotta make myself "undercam" it.. HAHA
I'm running the CompCams XR274R-10 rollercam in my 496". OOTB Edelbrock heads, stock convertor, 3.23 gears. Heavy fullsize car.
The (front disc) brakes can be 'mediocre' at times, but that's also due to the ineffecient boostersystem (1960) on the car. A vacuum canister should solve that imo. Also the intake system doesn't help matters much either (long ram intakes) but that's one of the things that will stay on this car.
I can get it to idle low enough usually but when the engine is cold it's really pushing against the convertor.
Just did a 496 - Dwayne's Comp flat tapper cam, hand ported Stealths, 10.4:1. Currently runs headers, 950 Holley, and power brakes. Makes 480/480 to the tires on pump unleaded, runs 3.23s with a 2500 convertor, gets 13mpg, and idles at 15" of vacuum. You really think a 496 will feel soft? Honestly? I think you're nuts...lol
Just did a 496 - Dwayne's Comp flat tapper cam, hand ported Stealths, 10.4:1. Currently runs headers, 950 Holley, and power brakes. Makes 480/480 to the tires on pump unleaded, runs 3.23s with a 2500 convertor, gets 13mpg, and idles at 15" of vacuum. You really think a 496 will feel soft? Honestly? I think you're nuts...lol
That sounds pretty much what I'm shooting for..what kind of duration/LSA on the custom FT cam?? I was hoping for 12"hg+, so I could have a choppy idle. Like I stated earlier, I ran the "famous" .528" MoPar cam in a 360 SB and had 15"hg and a noticeable but too smooth for me idle. Hehe
The "new" 528 has 112 LSA for better manners I guess. I believe the "old " 528 was tighter - something like 108 degrees.
Mike at Muscle Motors spec'ed my cam. It is a fast rate MM lobe, 243 duration, .55" lift, 108 LSA. Timing very similar to the "old" 528 just a bit more lift. 13" vacuum. I consider it choppy but I guess that is subjective. If you want it choppy, better to go the custom cam route with tighter LSA. Also, based on Mike's experience, 108 LSA is best for acceleration with this type of combo. I just know it works well... loads of mid range torque and will hang in to and beyond 6000 RPM if needed... eg. to get that last little bit of straight away before the turn without pulling 5'th gear.
The "new" 528 has 112 LSA for better manners I guess. I believe the "old " 528 was tighter - something like 108 degrees.
Mike at Muscle Motors spec'ed my cam. It is a fast rate MM lobe, 243 duration, .55" lift, 108 LSA. Timing very similar to the "old" 528 just a bit more lift. 13" vacuum. I consider it choppy but I guess that is subjective. If you want it choppy, better to go the custom cam route with tighter LSA. Also, based on Mike's experience, 108 LSA is best for acceleration with this type of combo. I just know it works well... loads of mid range torque and will hang in to and beyond 6000 RPM if needed... eg. to get that last little bit of straight away before the turn without pulling 5'th gear.
Actually it's the MP509 that had the LSA widened from 108.
With the 3.23 it bested 11.57, and couple of 11.59's, otherwise in the heat was an 11.60's car...at a hair over 116 MPH.
Father has same Comp Cam lobe family flat tappet in his 440 pump gas Roadrunner. He's got 3.23 as well.
He's bested 11.85 @ 112 otherwise it does 11.90's to 12.00's If he'd drive it more that would be dandy. It idles like a pussycat.
Mike
NICE! RIP: Nick Wilson (CompuFlow). 260/268 @.050" flat tappet on a 109LSA makes me reconsider the 255 @.050" street roller on a 110LSA! I won't even have power brakes, I just wanted the vacuum as an indication of idle quality and throttle response. Thanks for the reply!!
Ron