Cost of 900 hp in a N/A small block?

Mopar guys seem to have a reputation of being "cheap" in general, but I know some of us that are not.

I'm just trying to get a feel from some on this board on what they think 900 hp should cost in a N/A small block...carb to pan. I know there are other options for 900 hp that might be cheaper, but thats for another topic.

There are a few here that know the answer to this question, but would like to hear from a few that haven't been down this road yet.

someone on here was selling their 360-1 head small block that made in the 700s and said it was a $19k engine.

So I will guess 26k

To get a REAL 900hp from a true inline wedge smallblock.......26K won't begin to touch it, even if you can do it, which I have my doubts. I know guys can produce dyno sheets that SAY their inline motor makes that, but that's another discussion.

That power number can be attained with canted valve heads, but it's still likely going to be a 40K small block

Can a n/a small block make 900 hp? My guess is a R5/p7 may be the cheapest, if it would do it. If it could be done with a R3/W8 I'm going to say over 40 grand. My R1 Indy head will hopefully make 650-675 on pump gas. Knowing what this build has cost I would've taken a different route, or maybe said screw it and sold out.

Not sure if Brian's makes 900 but its close. 2800 @ 156 is 851 so I'm looking forward to hearing the details of this

410 sprint car motors usually make 830 to 850 hp and cost around $45K or $50K. I'm pretty sure that if you call up Stanton and ask him for 900 hp drag race version he'll build it for you. Might cost $60K by the time you come up with a different cam/compression/head package for drag racing.

Do you consider a gen III a SB? The engine masters make 700 with them and they have RPM limits and cams are basically mandated by rules to be on the very short side of duration as well as very conservative compression limits. Throw in 30 degrees more cam, 2 points more compression another 20-30 cubes sheetmetal intake more liberal port size and I think it could be done but like Monte said you may get it on a dyno but in the real world who knows till you try it.

If inline wedge is it than a W8 is the only way to stand a chance.

Im pretty much guessing here but... R5p7 with more comp, more cam, better intake should be close. Cost COULD be under 15k if you find a good used motor witch ive seen from $3500.

I know what it cost to build a 590 hp small block,,, more than I ever spent in my life on a motor,, as far as Brians motor, I am going to guess 55-60 g's.

IMO, the only "fair" way to estimate the cost is if you assume it was built from all new, currently available parts. Otherwise it's just a game of who can find the best deal on the best used parts, which not everyone is going to be able to come up with.

A 572ci BB, using premium internals and valve train components would be in the mid-20's.

Im starting to realize the 8k I'm willing to spend is not going to get me there

An " upgraded" r5 p7 will be the cheapest way.
I know a freshened complete motor can be had for 10k or less complete that will make 750-800 horse.
It's then a matter of whatever is involved to make the extra power.
Buddy of mine bought such a motor, put it in a 3000 pound car and ran 9.40's at 143 with it exactly how he bought it( for well under 10k complete)
This was 12 to1 and had a dinky248/258@ 50 camshaft in it. Lots of room there to upgrade I would think. He took the heads off and had them flowed by a well known in these parts head guru and they went over 400.
He ran a 4150 carb and old W2 headers he made work on it.

The R5p7 deal will do it easy. With the NASCRAP rules the Penske motors were making north of 850. You can buy complete motors with inconel headers and all for 7 to 8 all day long. Yeah they need fresh pieces but the hardware alone is worth that. Larry Smith tells me that Nascrap have a rule where by the top of the cylinder port measured from the centerline of the crank is limited. Take away the rule and do set from scratch and he says you might get close to a grand......Todd

Racing Engines By Arrington has this listed

Dodge Mopar R6 with Aluminum P8 Cylinder Heads NASCAR Racing Engine

$24,900 Dodge R6 Racing Engine
400 Miles since last rebuild
Moroso Distributor
Bosch Alternator
Moroso Oil Pan
AET Pistons
AET Connecting Rods

4.176 Bore
3.253 Stroke
6.175 Rod Length
12:1 Compression
.382 / 105 Cam w/ 2.2 Rocker Ratio
9.005 Deck Height
40.8 Cylinder Head Chamber Volume

It is 850 hp

If you read the internet and listen to guys at the track...........there is a swinging dick on EVERY street corner with an inline valve, wedge smallblock, that makes over 900HP. I have been doing this stuff for a LONG time and have NEVER seen one, be it a Ford, Mopar or Chevy. As I said, you can do it with some canted valve stuff, but it's still not REAL easy and will be at a min of 40K if you do it with all new stuff.

I have done several 434ish Chevys and Fords, with the BEST 15-18* heads you can buy. A good one will make between 840 and 880, depending on cam, compression, rotating weight, etc. I have yet to see a Mopar head that was BETTER than the best off brand, so I am going to say it can't even realistically be done with an inline head........regardless to what some dyno sheets may say to the contrary

Now that you see what it costs...

is NA really that important?

Interesting post. There might be one or two, the score boards tell the real truth though. To go over 850 costs lots of $$ and rpm.

Not sure what you consider "close"......but within 50 isn't close to me. And as I said, if his does in fact make 850, that is a realistic number for a "killer" inline headed motor, because I see a LOT of those. a TRUE 900.....NEVER seen one. When you get to this HP level on this type motor, 10 hp is a TON, 50 is an eternity

No doubt it can be done if the only rules are "SB" and "inline wedge head" and "NA". No doubt it would be an R&D exercise but it could be done. (the op didn't say anything about wedge heads only so that is a rule that you made up Monte)

The Pro Stock truck guys were 950 hp from 358 cubes a few years back and the Aussie Pro Stock guys are 1100 hp from 400 cubes. I've seen dyno sheets from 900 hp SB motors which seem believeable and there are turn key sprint car engines which are in the neighborhood of the number. So when you add those data points up it looks like an achieveable number to me.

Well I know what the 900-1000hp INLINE SB Comp stuff costs and they are generally well north of $50K. But these are small cube high reving deals.

For those saying I know about this or that combo making 700hp, who cares. 700HP is MILES away from a TRUE 900hp deal, especially in a SB.

Aussie Pro stock aint an inline head and the R&D money in those is STUPID money. I have around many very good comp teams and know what they spend on engine development and engine combos. Spend a fair amount of time at a builder that does Aussie Pro Stock P5 stuff and the heads up car we are involved with is basically an Aussi Pro Stock SB Chevy combo making 1055hp. So I have a pretty good idea what it takes and truct me you aint taking a 700HP combo and getting there.

What would you use for a block?

Who wants to be the guinea pig??

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DODGE-MOPAR-DRAG...229&vxp=mtr

Naturally aspirated ?

The R3 W8 380" motor in my Valiant made just over 900 on 2 different dyno's. At 3080# I ran best of 8.67 at the Dutch Classic this past weekend. The new parts and machine work cost about $35k if you assemble yourself.

This is what I don't get....



Torque is what moves the car.

I'll stay out of it now.

Sorry, I simply don't believe it makes that much.

AndyF.........the only reason I mentioned an inline head was the price range some were throwing around, an inline was the only thing to be in the neighborhood on cost. If you are not used to building high HP motors and you know the motor that you have that makes 700hp costs X amount of dollars......it is hard for most to fathom that 200 more hp will likely triple the budget at least. I mean......it's ONLY 200hp more.........right, how tough can that be.......LOL!!!

I didn't bring Comp motors, Aussie Pro-Stock and that type stuff into the conversation, because that stuff is in another world

Here is something else for guys to think about..........So lets say we believe the power claims for this splayed valve motor pictured. And lets say we know what a killer set of splayed valve heads vs an inline head flows as far as air. So if we hear of an inline motor with heads that flow way less air than the splayed ones, is making over 900HP......are we buying that claim?...........I'm not

While total air flow is NOT the be all end all number, CSA, air speed and many OTHER things also come into play, it is a pretty safe assumption to expect to make 900hp, that you will need a head that moves right at 400cfm of air. THAT thins the herd of potentials very quick

You don't believe it because you don't know how to do it. I know what I have and the et is the proof. It can all be verified. My car is well documented.

The 19.000 dollar 360 1 was mine it's was built 5 yrs ago at min went 9.60 on 93 octane w a 950carb tti headers and 3.91 gears so I could cruise on the street....engine sold to a good fella here on the site.
The idea that 900hp can't be made w a sb tunnel ram is crazy...I seen with my own eyes one local in a duster that went 8.11 @ 173mph.
BES said personally 1000 hp pretty much guaranteed
Jeremy @ extreme will have a sb wedge out next yr w a 420 intake 1 carb that will eclipse 900 easy.Another would be Chris Uratchko.All the guys I have mentioned have theeeeee fastest sb's out there and I beleive what they say....For the effort without getting specific 40.000 would be close for one of these engines.I also wouldn't hesitate to say Bretts motor will hover within or over a true 900ish when finished.

35 to 40 for all 900hp sb's not just mopar.

Wallace says 935hp for this combo

That HP number is based off the ET and weight in the Wallace calculator. Wonder if basing it off the speed would yield the same numbers.

ET is how you get the car down the track. The speed is what relates to power

I know Chris, I know Tony and several others. Several times the things they are quoted as saying they CAN do or HAVE done, leaves out several key pieces of information on the full scope of the project............and I will just leave it at that

we'll I always in joy or input always controversial and backed by a lot's of personal experience how ever only making 840to880 shows your lack of engine building experience Prostock truck ran an inline valve W8. And there are many many many comp eliminator Motors that have all achieve 900 + horsepower with an inline head. Always check history before you say something can't be done, yes it can be done and yes it is expensive. Patterson, Chris and QMP to name a few have all done it

153 mph

Why build a 50k N/A race specific sb that makes 900hp when you can do it with a 4k shortblock and a turbo that you can drive to the track click off low 9s high 8s and cruise home. Maybe mopar guys are really that lost.

Jesus H Christ......does nobody even READ the damn posts. I implicitly said that Pro-Stock Truck and Comp motors were NOT in the discussion, because they are in a whole nother world. Was talking run of the mill, single carb, real world motors, with 15-18* wedge heads, like most people build.......NOT 10,000 rpm motors, built for clutch cars or motors for 1400lb roadsters in Comp eliminator

Seems impossible on this site, for anyone to take anything within the context of the ENTIRE discussion. They want to take ONE thing you said in ONE post, run with that comment and ignore everything else.

You guys carry on...........I'm out

Based on ET and weight, Wallace says 934hp.........based on MPH and weight, Wallace says 880hp............So now, do we know any more than we did before...........NOPE

153mph@3080#'s is 884hp per Wallace.
Edit:your post wasn't in Monty before I posted, but I'd say he's definitely in the wheelhouse

If you don't have a website that you talk about yourself on, you can't possibly know anything lol.

Moroso dream wheel says...based on ET/weight-910hp, based on MPH/weight-850hp.

Valiants aren't very aero, giving up some MPH over a different body. Stack some gear, get it to 60 and 330 on a good track can get it to ET well. Air was decent at Maple Grove early in the weekend. Just some observations. Beyond that, I'm just here spectating.

Maybe you don't but I do, His car Top Notch and has been around Divison 1 for a while.
SS/BM Richard Kay 8.67 He set record at the Dutch for his class.

Would it be too big of a a stretch to say the drive-train soaks up 20 HP?

If you don't start from scratch, like already 600hp with a set of -1 heads

How much more you have to spend to be in the 800hp range ?

Dan

so we don't believe dyno number, we don't believe calculated numbers.... So should the title of this thread be "Cost of an X mph N/A small block?" ??

...figured a turbo guy would have to ask "why?".

I do read these posts, but apparently not everyone here does. No where in Brian's post did he mention inline valves, canted valves, single four, dual four tunnel rams or any other exclusion.

This is my take, 900HP, NA, small block and carb to pan. Please point out what I missed. Here is a copy and paste.

"Mopar guys seem to have a reputation of being "cheap" in general, but I know some of us that are not.

I'm just trying to get a feel from some on this board on what they think 900 hp should cost in a N/A small block...carb to pan. I know there are other options for 900 hp that might be cheaper, but thats for another topic.

There are a few here that know the answer to this question, but would like to hear from a few that haven't been down this road yet."

You said it all with this. "I do read these posts, but apparently not everyone here does. No where in Brian's post did he mention inline valves, canted valves, single four, dual four tunnel rams or any other exclusion"

You can multiply TQ with lower gears to get more TQ, you can not do that with HP. You have to get more HP to go faster. Very simple concept but so out of grasp of so many. That being said I prefer not having to gear my car so low to go fast so I tend to want lats of cubes in a small package.

you said Ozzy Pro Stock and comp you never said anything about pro stock truck unless I missed it

Monte if you read the original question how much does it cost to build a 900 horsepower small block you're the one exempting rpm and cubic inches and comp motors and Aussie Prostock has nothing to do with the original question come back we will put more salt in your wound.. I could build 900 horse all day long for 25/30 grand with a good set of 8s or 9s CNC programs have cut the cost significantly on this type of motor... the biggest problem with A Mopar is block availability

Take that and put a 3.60-3.80 stroke in it and it might be more of beast but the 9" deck kinda limits things.

Thanks for asking the question Brian

Since the question was " what they think a 900 hp na sb should cost" Ill stand by 26k and not a penny more

You guys get poor Monte so worked up

I agree with you

FWIW I know of Rich's car as well. I am also sure he will concur an SS motor built to BM standards is no cheap piece to build. Could also easily be run in Comp but that is DEEP water for sure in what would be a B/SMA or even A/SMA deal likely, based on similar cars I have seen that run both and depending on cubes. Those are some mighty impressive SB's for sure. Also not run of the mill by any means. Rich's car is very impressive to say the least and doing it in a class full of late model Cobalts, G6's etc it is even more so.

I don't know...what should it cost, 25K-50K? What is someone willing to pay might be a more pertinent question.

I've never really looked at the price of entry as the be all, end all...what I really want to know is, how much does it cost to race, and maintain?

Would it be a valve springs every 10 passes engine? What's the life expectancy of say... rockers, valves, lifters, piston rings, bearings?

Not being sarcastic, I'm completely serious, because this is where the true cost of an engine manifests itself, not the sticker price to bring it home!

Putting a price tag on an engine such as this is near impossible. Some guys do nothing and the smart ones do everything. It cost BIG money to pay someone to do everything.

Build an AMC with FBS heads...

This whole thread is nutz. Guys saying they can build 900 with w8-w9's all day long, really. I don't know if you guys pay attention but many of these dyno champs do not even run 150 in a 3000 lb car on good days. A 900 HP build should trip 150 in the worst air. On a good day should run close to 158. If it doesn't either you have a car problem or a dyno operated that is doing something wrong. If same guy built it and took your money he needs a bruised eye.

If you know where the deals are and have some luck you could build for $10k. I did it once with my 457cid in 2000 with 100% American parts. Shops wanted $35,000 to $60,000.

Blocks and good cnc work is where you get creamed. Between Arrington selling me a block for $1,500 and Davis doing the block work I only had $3,000 in the block. Patterson sold heads to me and flat hooked me up on parts. The rockers I got in a trade that cost me $100. Point I'making this just never happens. Five years later I built a 421 cid. The block I got for $600 and did not need the cam tunnel bored and still ended up $10K through a shop. Lucky I had the top end already.

And you wonder why I went R5. Little hard work doing headers, fitting drysump, and an adapter done. People complain about adapter. I designed a bell. Tubular k fits dry sumps. And most people have headers built. 830hp out of a 358. EEI will build 1,000hp for $60,000. I'm sure Frank Lysing and others will do for less. My pockets are not that deep. And my stuff only makes 900 based on mph. But, was cheap for me.

I paid 2400 for machine work done on a virgin block from Charlie Westin cam tunnel 60 mm w berrings,lifter bores bushed,bored,honed,decked.
Holy shishkabob 9600 for block work on a 600 dollar block.

I know where you can get a bunch of R3 with W8 Comp stuff for quite reasonable. A very dedicated and smart man has been trying to make it work in Comp for years and just couldn't do it. He was north of 750 on 300'ish inches, and over $20k in dyno time.

Frankly, these kinds of projects, you need to start with a blank check and lots of crying towels. 900HP is just an arbitrary number, what do you want to do with the engine? What are the rules? S/F....Ken M

what dyno numbers are you talking about I did not see anybody post dyno numbers or mph numbers that were not reasonable. incredible you did it for 10gs that is completely believable using quality used parts recently there was a Patterson motor for sale 14 grand made over 900. I don't think any two people will pay the same price what someone can do for 25 somebody else might be able to do 20 or 40. I think with a p7 it could be done cheaper with used parts there are tons available....

If you want to find out I have a new 9.56 deck R3 block & Zeus castings W8's cnc'd by Brett Miller along with the 420 intake,4" billet crank and dry sump pan OR a new 9.00 deck R3 block with new W8's raw !!

PM if interested...I know this is not a for sale section but it's on topic !!

And Charlie is the Man , I wonder if he still dose machine work on Pro-Stock engines?

Here is what I said for those that missed it...........and several of the posts were directed at Ray or others directly.........as the thread had drifted from the original question, which indeed had NO restrictions on combination...........If some of the commenters had indeed read EVERY post, they would have known exactly what I was trying to say............but that is not how it works around here. Read ONE post and get in where you feel you can take a shot at somebody is how it works here.

You're pretty much there Monte ! loll

1 1990 FSS/D David Barton, Robesonia PA, '15 Challenger 8.689 9.90 -1.211
2 107 SS/AS Wes Leopold, Bethel Park PA, '05 Stratus 8.404 9.60 -1.196

Two n/a small blocks right there with a lot of restrictions. I'm not sure what the weight on the Challenger is but it can't be below 3400lbs.

Just here to

Rich 99% of these guys are clueless when it comes to class racing save your breath and the grief.

I KNOW what Leopolds engine made. Was just involved in the sale of another AS car that was that came with 3 engines. The best of which was about 30HP behind Leopolds P5 deal. Yes I said P5, as that is what Leopold runs. His old W8 stuff was good too and now resides out west here as well. That is NOT a cheap motor at all and IMO not sure why or how a P5 is allowed in SS, just saying....

Exactly, that's why I don't post as much as I used to, and pretty much stay out of these conversations.

I'm just a lurker anymore myself.

Looks to me like the question has been answered.
Somewhere between $10k and $60k, depending on how you want to go about it.

shouldn't we be asking why you would want a 900hp N/A engine, instead of how much it would cost?

Is this Richard Kay, if so, been a fan for a long time. Love your SS/BM Valiant.

OEM Mopar part numbers make it legal and given the options that are available to run those modified classes, the guys doing it are lucky to have the P5 head as an option.

Fishy 340's new motor in NA trim... cam, ring gap, use a dry sump, two carbs and a sheet metal manifold. I would GUARANTEE 900+ and I'm just as sure his car would prove it.

Just my honest, humble, opinion.
BTW Monte it was good to meet you at Great Lakes!

monte it can and has been done with the w8 stuff , my 390 was 920hp,ran 8.30@ 163.00 2850#, my uncle has a rwr 393 w8 that is 940hp 8.50's high 150mph @ 3100#, my avenger has a 300" w8 that is 705 I have run 9.05 @149.00 @ 3000# . all 13 degree head engines. NA in super stock cars. not one of these engines were under 40K . a few guys are selling p5 heads that are not cracked or leaking for 12 to 15 K.
incase anyone is interested my 300" r3 w8 engine is for sale carbs to pan $15,000.00 . or the entire car for $45,000.00

Yes I am Richard Kay and thanks for the kind words. My 69 Valiant is built according to Super Stock rules and all the restrictions that go with it. I didn't mean to cause such a turmoil in this thread. I was trying to give a realistic answer to the op, which I did. If I put a longer stroke in that motor the hp would be more and if the car wasn't shaped like a brick the mph would be quite a bit higher. I have seen Datoyna's and Sebrings which are much more aerodynamic go much higher mph than my Valiant.

guess $4000 turbo guy has a friend.....

I enjoy N/A combos. Pretty cool seeing what can be squeezed out of any said combo. Brian's engine was impressive. Brett's lil 66 Dart is cool stuff, and their are many more out there.

I guess I took Monte's comment the same as Shiloh's.... cutting out comp and Aussie pro stock.... but prostock truck was ions ago. Stuffs been floating around for years, and the prices on some of the stuff, well.... quite doable. Hope some of the "lurkers" post up what they've done with what parts. Pretty small niche market for sure. I'll just sit on the porch and watch. I have some pretty cool pieces.... just set way milder that what most have done.

off subject but.... Rich, good seeing you at the Dutch , how far did you go in eliminations? I know you won first round... and Jimi the AA/SA Belvidere is awesome, is that really the former BA car?

Good to see you too. I lost the third round with a .004 light when tire spin caused it to shift into second right off the line.

I call Bravo Sierra on this.... That's my build with one less point of compression.

Again Jim........many mistook the point I was trying to make. In Comp, Super Stock and some other trims, with sheetmetal manifolds, dry sumps, ultra-light bobweights, super low drag ring packs, etc, etc, the in question number is attainable, but lets face it, those type motors are few and far between. I was speaking more along the lines of what the average guy is going to do. Sure, he may have some KILLER cylinder heads that would be up to the task, but it's the REST of the motor, where making the jump from the 850-880 range to over 900 is where the issue lies.

And I wasn't trying to insinuate the guy with the Valiant was lying or anything like that.......but we all know this is a HARD, very hard in fact goal to achieve and just a run of the mill motor is not getting it done. His mph for the weight car, indicates he is about 20 shy of the "magic" number. Do I believe his motor makes the 880 the mph indicates.......absolutely I do. The 934hp the ET indicates............well I have my doubts. That's a 50hp swing in numbers, so the real number is likely in between.

My dad ran a SS/GA car for years that was a record holder. WE did the motors......me and him, so regardless of what some may think, I know EXACTLY what is required to get more power from a combo than most think is there. There was 40hp difference in our "record" motor and our "race" motor. One needed freshening in a handful of passes and the other would go the season. THAT is the difference, but of course you KNOW all this.

I didn't know this would be such a hotly debated topic when I posted it.

I was just looking for the "general" opinion from people that haven't built a engine of this caliber in the past. I did make the mistake of generalizing the 900 hp mark and do realize there is a substantial difference in 25 hp output at this level. My motor made (by the calculated #'s a little over 900 by et and about 880 by mph) so I would suggest it was very close to an honest 890 hp. BTW, my car was at 2880 when my best times were ran and I am very impressed with those that have under 400" engines running quicker at more weight.

My build is what I would call a higher end, but regular guy build. It is a very mild bracket roller cam, about 14:1 compression and cast single 4 manifold. Not exactly the things dreams are made of, but made good reliable hp. Didn't cost me anywhere near the $40k I am hearing, but was north of $20k by a decent amount for a blend of new and used parts to get it done. Thanks again to Brett Miller for the very nice CNC ports in the heads.

Bretts new engine is not typical, but should easily eclipse 900 hp. No canted valves required.

It just took a bad turn when some people put THEIR OWN limitations on the build. You asked a blanket question - 900 NA H/P = how much. Others created the drama with all THEIR limitations, such as inline valves, new vs old parts, etc. Bottom line is - there is no simple answer. The guy that can shop wisely - including "seasoned" parts, use patience while buying parts, get his machine work done CORRECTLY at reasonable prices, and can do a lot of his own grunt work will pay dimes on the dollar to the guy that buys all new stuff and just writes a check when the pump shows 900 HP.

And here's the real rub. People that use MPH as a true gauge of H/P must be clueless to ALL of the things that affect trap speeds. Weight is obvious. Driveline loss is too, to a certain extent. Engine accessories - I've never seen anybody use a working alt on a dyno pull (at this level). The smarter ones will start to consider the aero package, and that resulting drag. But something NOBODY ever seems to grasp is that a dyno cell is not a real world scenario to the airflow introduced to the carb. While you can jet for max installed H/P - it does not mean you are making the H/P that it did on the dyno. You may gain H/P by having an efficient hood scoop/air pan setup that draws air from a cool high pressure area. But you can also lose it by drawing your air from a hot low pressure area. Look how much power Pro Stock cars lose at Denver - same thing - lower effective "air pressure". There can easily be a 50 H/P swing from the most honest dyno numbers to the H/P the engine actually makes in the car. And I'm sure there are other things that affect the H/P to MPH equation. Point is - there are too many variables to use the weight/MPH ratio as a way to accurately judge an engine in all cases.

I agree mph/weight will tell ya,however SOME dyno are money when it comes to hp calculations.
It's good to see 99% who posted here put a weight and mph next to the opinion.

Monte was just giving a few more examples not trying to second guess your knowledge, the Wallace calculators which I use from time to time seem to be (3%) on both sides, hp is always a bit high with et.always low with mph. In most of the super stock modified cars they never show what they should actually run according to dyno hp,if they did my car in ss/bm with a p/s truck 358 should run 8.00 to 8.10 , I never ran that with the 390". Two more cars I can think of are Scott Gove,his car is stupid fast he has been in the 7.90 zone not sure if it's a p5 or w8 and Paul Ricci with his avenger I know is a w8 and has been very close to the 7 second zone, both of those are well over 900 hp on hp. I don't have the mega cubic dollar budget to buy multiple $4000.00 torque converters ,$3500.00 headers,tires,gears,carbs etc. I know you know the drill and that what it takes.

I don't think it is much of a debate at all. There are a bunch of guys saying they have 900 hp SB engines and they have track times and dyno sheets to back it up. There are one or two guys who say that they don't believe since they haven't seen it themselves. Seems to be that Monte's myth is busted, 900 hp SB engines do exist and have existed for many years.

How much they cost depends but it looks like $40K to $50K turnkey for new parts gets you in the neighborhood. Maybe less if you do some work yourself and have some used parts. Maybe more if you just write a check to a big name engine builder who sees you coming.

Brian is just a regular guy on a budget like most of us. He has a really good combination. But, struggles like everyone else when trying to be repeatable with one of these combos.

I just get pissed by the guys that say it is easy. Or even they can do it. When the fact is many of us have built or had help or bought one of these engines. Flow numbers from 390-420 and HP from 850-1000 posted. Most of us are not stupid. If you don't have the mph then you don't have the HP. Or at least when the engine is in your car the power is just not there. If you 60ft is out of shape the guess what so is your et.

Brian really posted an impressive pass. His et was great but had a great 60ft. His mph was also stought t,o there you go, HP.

Now everyone thinks Brett is the only guy who knows W8's. Well that's just BS. Many people have ran better ET's and mph over 10 years ago. The difference is Brett doesn't bend you over to help you do so. I dealt with a lot of the ground scorchers in the early 2000's. Many were pretty decent until you wanted port or intake work. Or complete engines they wanted to put you in bankruptcy. Today if doing one of these I would use Kevin Blanks for block work if he had the time and head work definitely call Brett Miller. I just can't afford the Pro Stock NHRA guys.

Brett

Leon

where did you read someone said it was easy

This post is good and you guys kill me. lol

This forum is like every other one. Good and bad info.
Just like Google YOU need to seperate the BS and use the info YOU think is valid.
So in my Rusell Peters voice

"TAKE IT AND GO"!

Matt

Here I was on a vacation in Greece, warm ,sunny, good beer and beautiful women, and you are having fun here...

I don t know what the cost would be since I have bought most of my stuff used+ paid shipping,24% sales tax and customs fees,but
it isn't cheap, don t know if I have 900 but I will post a dyno chart, I have 10 less inches and a tad lower comp ratio and unleaded fuel

[img:center][/img]

A dyno read is exactly as good as the honesty of the operator. Read Vizard for how many Indy, NASCAR, F1 dyno results have been "adjusted" to please the customer.

Still pretty stout !

Just need to add, "low maintenance and pump gas" to the question and we might lose a few guys to cardiac arrest...

Sasquatch's quote: "The R5P7 deal will do it easy...
Fishy340's quote: "Jeremy @ Extreme will have a sb wedge out next year with a 420 intake and single carb that will eclipse 900 easy...


Only two examples I could find...I swore there were more...

there's parts out there Billy..... just think of the posibilities!!

I can't keep the 904 alive with 600HP and a small shot...

r5 p7 has the potential to make well over a 1000hp there a ton of Cleveland sbf making over a thousand similar style head

I'm sure that'll start another fire

Jeremy at Extreme could easily do it, watch an x275 race

.

You must be doing something wrong. Mines going strong with 878 hp and putting the power to a 8 3/4 for almost 6 years now.

I know others thrashing 904s running low 9s high 8s as well.

Lil shop in Lancaster can take care of that!

Another reason why I`m goin w/new gears, a 35 spline spool/axle package and a Mark Williams billet cap.......

I put more miles on mine in a week, than you did in 6 years...
I make more torque than you...

but yeah, probably something wrong.

You telling me you're dead hooking that car at every stop light and spraying? Wow! Your an aggressive driver. I guess as long as you're having fun....

Not being a wise guy but if you put radials on and were at a good track BOTH would break in no time.
The harder ypu hook the more parts ypu eat.

https://youtu.be/NBhZtPeVs2I
NOT a potato chip inline sb is all I can reveal.

Somehow we went from cool small block combos to "soft" cars that don't break 8.75 diffs....

Don't worry, we still have time to work in Powerglides, 9" rears, pinion angle AND Purple Stripe cams.

Don't forget, heads that don't look like factory originals.

Running 275 pros with a 1.34 60'. Guess I'm not launching hard enough yet....

Bring it over here I'll fix that 8 3/4 for you

So the cost of an 850-900hp SB is around 30K average..?

What's this "dead hooking" you're talking about? I'm a bias tire guy! Sorry if I side-tracked the thread, it's just that R5P7Duster set it up on the tee for me, so I just had to take a whack at it...

Little inline small block beating a bbc on spray!

No way ^^^^^

I see two chevies and one having a nitrous back-fire. What does that have to do with the posted question. LOL

can I get one of those $10K 900hp SB's please? heck maybe 2

Here's about 840 hp. A little work and you'll be right up there.

SB power

I guess I'm showing one of those can't make 900 Real hp motors with a inline head...Lol

Anyone have video of and 8 sec non tube chassis p7 going 8 anything ?

In spring lol..

https://www.facebook.com/VignognaRacingEngines/videos/773794826049222/

hope this link works, video of a 9.15 @144.5 mph 300" w8

I'd rather have the dizzy in the front lol.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dodge-Mopar-R6-P8-NASCAR-Racing-Engine-356-CID-8-Cylinder-Motor/121781317811?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D34004%26meid%3D4f4f8a985a1f4b3387b40818deb6a70d%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D121786077498

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dodge-Mopar-R6-P8-NASCAR-Racing-Engine-356-CID-8-Cylinder-Motor/121781317811?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D34004%26meid%3D4f4f8a985a1f4b3387b40818deb6a70d%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D121786077498

Ok so most of us agree the 900HP number can be hit. Now the question is how long will said engine last. It's not for me as I race my junk weekly all Summer long and not just on bonzi days.

On avereage a super stock engine is good for 100 passes.in between that you will replace valve springs.

So what do you need to replace after 100 passes generally? Bearings?

Why have a dizzy. It's 2015

On my 300" engine , pistons,rods,bearings,rings,valve springs,locks retainers, timing belt,distributor belt,rebuild or replace roller lifters,check over all rocker arms,mag the crank. This engine spends most of every pass between 8800 and 10,500 rpm.

I broke a rocker this fall and I m going to replace them all before next season, they were manufactured in 1998 and must have several hundred runs ...

that got me thinking about the valves, I have replaced the exhaust valves but I m not sure how old the intake valves are, there must be a limit on how long you can run them, anyone knows?

I m not interested in finding out on my own

valves are titanium, I believe they are Manleys

You mean the X275 class that is a "POWER ADDER" class..........the only thing that proves is that some are better at power management than others

Plus the FASTEST car ever in X275...........a twin turbo SBF, the next two, a BBC nitrous and a SBC nitrous. So how is any of that relevant to this discussion?

The smallblock car is Ron Rhodes, been 4.40s on a radial with nitrous at a REALLY light weight. It's an inline wedge motor, that does NOT make 900hp on motor alone..........so what does all that tells us.........again, not a damn thing....LOL!!!!

I personally do not, nor do I use spark plug wires....

Is this for the sake of bench racing, or is there some legitimate reason why an N/A small block needs to hit the number?

I think most of us know a much easier (and cheaper) way to get there...

with that thinking why does a big block have to hit any given number? Why do slant 6 guys try to go faster than other slant 6 guys? Why aren't we just buying used GM based stuff off of Racing Junk and calling it good?

With the dollar amounts we're talking here for a max effort n/a vs a comparable hp p/a setup...it's a matter of common sense. There's ways to hit that number that are much cheaper and easier. That's why I ask...why is this the goal?

I mean if the guy has trucks full of money that he can throw away just to prove a point and says he made 900 hp n/a with X engine, more power to him and good luck have fun. But if he's on a budget (like most of us) and is under the assumption that he can hit that number within a tight budget, a reality check is approaching.

Well we went 8.19 with a 1.14 60' this weekend with 2800lb all motor SB on a 29.5x10.5 tire with a short wheelbase ladder bar car. So I have some idea what kinda money it takes to hit 900hp with a SB Also watched a fellow competitor go 8.006 at 2875 with his all motor SB as well.

We need a "How much power for $10K" thread on Moparts. My cheap a$$ has his limitations.

I thought mine did too until I got into this R1 build.

Hey Al I think you blew right by 900 with that one.. think you're closer to 1000hp to run That et at track not to mention you are racing up hill in a parking lot . Your average racer would have no idea

There has been very few people that have really shown what a R5/P7 engine is capable of. Most guys are buying up cheap ex Nascar parts, rather than starting with new castings etc and doing a full effort build. To that end, it's not an engine that's really proven itself as a drag racing platform.

I think the cost of stroking an R5 is what kills it.

LOL uphill in a parking lot. The sad unfortunate truth of it. Be nice to run at a proper race facility but we will next year. Plan on making some trips back east to run NMCA East NA10.5, of course AFTER the engine gets quite a bit smaller first

I was talking to Ray Barton today, their gen3 426 ss hemi makes 950 hp.

50k to build

David has set the record again at 8.54 at 3400 lbs

Not enough block height for a decent arm.

Needs more like 1075hp to run that number at 3400,950hp @3400 would be an 8.90 0ass.

I wonder if his labor is reflected in this cost or if someone could walk in with 50K and leave with an engine.

Check out Bondobobs stock suspension Dart sport. Went 5.82 1/8 mile. That's high 8's.

Cheap NASCAR parts? Windberg cranks, Lentz rods, JEPistons, Titanium valves, retainers, Jesel valve train. All cheap parts, that's why most mopars don't carry this particular list of brands.

That said, Alan is sort of correct. Buy a used R5 that made 830 new. Worn rings, pistons, valves you still make over 800hp. The 575 torque and high RPM is what limits most from making record passes. I for one have not set the world on fire with little or big R5 engines. But, in fairness, I have really not put the same effort a class racer would. Both of my engines 358 or 440 would go 5.5's at 3000 with full exhaust. The 440 would do so with almost no challenge. It went 5.71 first pass in the car. The 358 would take some work. One get rid of the big motor bogging tires. Second put a 3spd auto or stick in the car and know what converter or clutch setup.

Bottom line I have raced the 358 and 440 at a lot of Mopar shows. No one with a comparable combo was outrunning me. Sure it is easily possible. The average Mopar guy spent more to go slower. I would be happy to sit down and compare receipts. So I get a little tired of people talking down the R5. For the money you can't beat it. Wanna make 900 buy one and spend a little money on it. EEI blocks and 4" cranks are available to make it much easier. My 440 will make 900 on the pump. And it is cheaper to build with available NASCAR takeoffs. Build a all new combo as Ernie has done and 1000hp has been done.

Ray said out the door. By comparison I think an Indy drag pack engine is or was 25k

The Indy Drag Pak motor is a cast iron block 5.7/6.1 hemi with 6.1 heads per NHRA rules. The Barton 426 hemi is a special Mopar crate motor package developed for the NHRA Factory Stock class. It is specially machined aluminum block and Apache heads with a larger throttle body. What Ray and David Barton have done with these motors is truly amazing. They not only have the fastest Drag Pak in the land, they have the fastest Factory Stock car in the land. On a side note, a Drag Pak with a 426 Gen III hemi driven by Kevin Helms won the national championship in NHRA Stock Eliminator this year.

Should make one quick clarification. Barton is the fastest NA Factory Stock car in the country. There is also a boosted class.

Are the Hellcats allowed to run in a stock class yet?

Not yet. This last year NHRA added some new combinations for the Challenger where showroom or street configurations of the 5.7, 6.1 and 6.4 hemis are legal. They haven't approved the street 6.2 supercharged hemi to date. However, the race only 2015 Challenger Drag Pak that came out this year can be ordered with either an NA 426 hemi combo or a 354 supercharged hemi combo. They had to reduce the cubic inches of the supercharged hemi to match the Ford and Chevys. The race ready supercharged Drag Pak will only set you back $110,000.

http://www.mopar.com/dodge/challenger/mopar-drag-pak/

What's the thread title again?

x2, the R5 block with a deck reinforcement plate will accept a rather large bore, get a set of new P7 castings, move the exhaust valve moved over to make room for a larger intake valve, and you got something to work with. The NASCAR port/valve/cam programs were never meant to feed anything more than 358 c.i.

What cam core would be used on the Ritter block with P7 heads?
I'm interested in building a 400" P7 and if it worked this could be a budget way to do it.

It would be a R5 camshaft with a LA style front. They were machining the front of the R5 cores, but depending on what you were wanting to do, a custom core would probably be best.

Lol sounds dirt cheap.
Why wouldn't an LA/R3 cam core work? I thought these were Basically r3 blocks that a P7 head would bolt on. But I haven't gotten to read up on these things much

p7 is a splayed valve so your valves aren`t arranged ex /in/in/ex/ex/in/in/ex. plus they are 6 bearing 60 mm. you can have the snout machined down for a standard cam drive

Jesel or Westcott can supply any kind of cam core you'd need. If 900hp on most dynos with a N/A 400" R5/P7 is the goal, it wouldn't be difficult and could be done on somewhat of a budget. Getting 1100hp+ with a N/A 400" R5/P7 will get spendy, no different than doing the same thing with a SBC. A current new competitive Comp Elim. small block fetches 100k-125k, depending on who you write the check to.

What kind of hp does 164.50mph at 2860 lbs. with an automatic equate to?

Mighty close to 1000

Wallace Racing calculator says 1019 hp.

What does Al Carps FS/B Challenger weigh? 3200? It holds the FS/B record with a 8.54 @ 157. 426 Gen III. Ray said something about NHRA only allowing .675 lift at the valve too lol.

FS/B:
· Index: 10.35
· Naturally Aspirated entries only
o Entries up to 400 CID must weigh a minimum of 3,250 lbs.
o Entries up to 430 CID must weigh a minimum of 3,350 lbs.

that was August 2014....

My w8 engine on dyno today.

Cast intake one 1250 carb.

411 CI

My other w8 engine is from engine masters 2011
Made 750 Hp on this same dyno and has been 8.90s 150mph at 2915lbs

👍🏻

HELL YEAH!! VERY IMPRESSIVE!!

Had a really good time today, could have made another dozen pulls on it changing stuff. Congrats Brett that is one seriously mean wedge you built.

Yes big thanks to Brad Tory and Brandon
For the help today
Thanks Rider race engines for letting me sneak in on the dyno👍🏻

And now the chassis tuning begins

Glad to see it is off the Dyno and happy, and making power

All the time and dedication shows....... Nice work

Awesome Brett, so what would the engine cost?

BIG dollars but it costs a lot less when you do the work yourself and sure gives you a good feeling in your belly. I'm not big on DYNO numbers but even unfactored numbers got to be sky high. GREAT job Brett. I think Josh (monster Mopar) better start closing the giveaways to these small blocks. They are great engines with heads flowing better or very close to all the available big block heads.

I can't give a price,but I can give advice..Brett shared every single detail and looked for better prices which is way above and beyond while doing my engine.
Great job Brett I'm happy you finally got yours done.

shots fired!! shots fired!! can't wait to see the "in car" performance this spring!

I don't know what I have in this engine.

Don't want to know lol

But you do not need some of the spendy stuff that's in this engine to make. The power.

I think it could be done for $28000-30000 for all new parts.

Shop around take your time I think it can be done for $15000-20000 with the right used parts.

The best way is used w8 top end as most of it out in the world is way to small for drag race engine.

So it's easy to fix them right up😜

Now thar's awesome! Nice job !

We did it a few times, I didn't list carb.

It's crazy money

ok 411 cid .cast intake one carb. wet sump.and 50w oil..Brett you forgot to mention this is not your big port. WOW that is bad dude 👍👍👍👍👍👏👏👏👏👏👏ok now let's think about a 440 small block. your big port w8s.dry sump and a sheet metal intake. And let's go north of an inch lift .1000HP all day... Brett great job.its going to fun in the car. Looks like you'll be in the market for Funny Car cage..8.40s. I no what my made on pump fuel. I never had doubt. 900HP would come out of yours ........💉💉💉💉💉

I was very happy when I got some updates from the dyno room yesterday. I'm very happy and proud for you! Some day I am going back to W heads

what head do u have now

Indy 360-1 245 I had a set of Brett's W9s and had a W8 motor before. I love the motor I have now, but someday when it's time to go through it I'm considering going to a W head

yeh me to

I am in to W9 heads way less then that. I got the heads with seats and guides, shopped around for new Del West titanium vales, had to machine exhaust shorter. Had Brett cnc them and installed take off psi springs. Springs checked on checker and still check fine to this day. I have 3700.00 in my heads.

Brett, that's right about 10 ftlbs from 7000 to 8000 over what I had in 2007 with my 421 w8. And you maintained 5 more at 9,000. I realize you can't race dynos, but those strong torque numbers in the 7,000's will work well on the shifts.

Good work, now let's see how it performs in the car. I had terrible in car performance with my 421 imo. Would not 60' and never thought I was seeing 900 HP at the stripe. But, judging by the 1000hp estimate for a 2800# car running 163 mph. Maybe. Ken's sleek camaro ran 158 with 890hp using a clutch.

I would say your engine would make about 810-840 on this dyno.

My engine right now on this dyno 750 HP car is 2915 lbs ready to go down track.

That has been 8.90s at 150mph.

And you are right can't race dynos

But your car shows me about the power I expect. 810-840

I never get sick of that

Very nice look forward to hearing what it does in the car..

Man that thing sounds good singing it's song!

The man himself has spoke and has dyno sheets to back it up...and he said 15 to 30 grand sure you could spend more but why. I think this engine deserves its own thread maybe we can convince Brett to start one give us details I personally would like to thank Brett for the mountains of information he shared with me regarding LA small

He has taught me tons and every time I get a chance I try to learn more. I would love to see a build thread on it.

Funny you say that. I have a few dyno sheets of engines I have ran in my car. Can't remember who's dyno was first used for Bob's 358. Big numbers with no changes from EEI. Then APD sells a carb and goes Q16 showing 900 HP. Wouldn't run but 118 in the eighth in my car. My 440 was 850 HP and ran 118 with the wrong gear and converter. Made changes and it went 124. None have beat the 128 the 421 W8 went in decent air. This engine only had one opportunity of good air running 1/4 mile. That was Atco and I completely missed the setup. Air is everything. Easy for a guy to make a pass at sea level post numbers on net. Those 150 mph passes were at 2000' and above. Weird thing, car ran 150 at Martin, MI at 4,700'.

Like I said Ken Swortz ran 158 with 880hp on the same dyno. They built his engine. Doesn't make sense to make the dyno happy when dynoing a customers personal build.

I think 408stroker went 128 in Texas air with a powerglide.

This is true, but to be fair it was killer air for here.

Can not believe nobody is inquiring about the W8 top end in the for sale section that produced these results.

What are you planning now Brian?

This stuff is awesome, who would've thunk these little A motors would be crackin 900hp when they were bangin gears in their 340 Demons in 1971?

tell me about it i love small blocks

Me too

I love when they do cool things.... then I hurt something and wish I had a nice B1 low deck lol

That is some awesome parts at a good price, however it is an extremely narrow market... you have to have a narrow deck block and be willing to run very short pistons and rods or spin the beejebus out of a smaller displacment or find an unobtanium tall deck intake, you will still need a very expensive short block be it tall or short and you don't want to slap it on a stock block (well I do but I can afford it so thats a mute point). After someone spends $10,000 on that they are gonna think hard about an R5P7 ready to drop in with probably more potential. Someone will probably buy it at or close to you asking price but it may take a while.

"This is true, but to be fair it was killer air for here.

Can not believe nobody is inquiring about the W8 top end in the for sale section that produced these results"

I would love to take it off your hands but I am still knee deep in a Stratus build that seems to be never ending...

These high horsepower high rpm engines appear to have lots of durability issues and not probably the way to go for the weekly racer. A few bonzi hits in the Fall and a couple of Mopar racers a year maybe

My other w8 goes 8.90 been in car from 2011 till now.

Turn it 7800 rpm have not done anything to it other than change oil.

This same engine had 70 dyno pulls before engine masters then 5 hard pulls at engine masters.

So one you don't need big RPM
And 2 if build with quality parts they can give lots of runs.

Once again years mean nothing to me. I love and respect these Big, small blocks but the bottom line is, HOW MANY PASSES, not years. Several (fast) small block guys I know are making the switch to big blocks and the simplicity of running mid to low 8's and staying together.

FWIW on the heads up car the engine was just pulled at 88 passes. Still leaks down fince and compression test was good as well. It is getting destroked to drop some weight for the class we run. It makes 1054hp is shifter at 9600 and goes through just under 10,000rpm. We have broken a few valve springs along the way but are happy with it's performance. Was being freshened this yeah anyway but just saying it ran its best ever pass at the last race last year. We prefer to freshen before something breaks, So while certainly not bracket race type deal it has held up quite well with lots of RPM and really thin rings.

I have around 120 passes on mine now, nothing but normal maintenance,springs when needed, pac holds up very well, rods at 100 starts, now I'm going to put in new intake valves since I don't know how old they are, broke a rocker last summer, but thats it, 9000+ rpm

I have just under 2000, yes 2000 runs (in 2.5 seasons) on my 358 and haven't so much as adjusted a rocker arm. And yes, I buzz it every run, both in the water and throughout the run....9200 thru the lights. As for a bracket engine, I can't think of a better way to go. Oh, and thats 176 mph at 1800 lbs.

Mike

. Pretty sure you and I talked about your engine at Norwalk as I had a chance to get one cheap. You took the time to explain some of the needed work and expense of this type of build and I decided against buying one

I didn't really kill mine with RPM....didn't need to. I tried shifting it at 8500 and it wasn't any quicker than 8000 RPM shifts. The norm for me was shift about 7900 and trap 8000. This is not big RPM for a 1410 bobweight short block. It's not even big RPM for a short deck big block. They can and will live a nice life with the right short block under them.

Brett, those are impressive numbers!!

Just curious, how much lift, how much spring?

.900
.880
380 1100
350 980

I would think that's enough.
I see the air flow numbers stagnate at the top end of the run, which is often a tell tale of some instability in the valvetrain(I'm sure you know all that).
Was the rev limiter set well above 9000? I've forgotten to set the limiter high enough on more than one occasion.

We're you running Q16?

Dyno pulls at the 600 rate?

Yes I saw the air flow.

I don't think it was real bad. I have seen it drop air flow fast when it starts mash the valve train up. (I might be out of port cross section😜)

Yes q16

600 rpm a sec.

They use the lower correction factor (STD) I think that's the lower one.

Was only correcting 3% ish I saw raw numbers close to 890 HP

SHE BAD👍🏻

Using the fuel/bsfc numbers from the first pic, looks like 883.9 uncorrected for the 909 corrected......... That's about 2.8%.
No fluff there.

R5P7bantam I'm with you R5's are built from the main web up for RPM.

Not fair to compare to LA engines.

But, in their defense. I ran W8R3 for over 15 years. Ran Arrington headed R block before that. They are not high maintenance. I put thousand of miles and passes on the Arrington. It was built for 1000 Mile events in craftsman truck and arca. The W8 nitrous combo had a couple bugs early. Nothing serious just learning. No one was doing 457+ cubes with this stuff then. Once we got oil returning to pan if was pure joy. The 421 was turned 9,200 regularly. Once a year valve springs and aluminum rods. We hotlapped every weekend.

Look at the dyno sheets. Brett now builds more torque in the 7K range so the RPM can be run lower. Plus PAC springs outlast the triples three to one. I built all three of my engines far cheaper. Gas was also $1 a gallon. Builders wanted $30-40K back then. Keep making excuses. Truth is it's a pretty darn good combo and 200# lighter than big blocks.

To change the vibe, don't even get me started on how affordable R5P7's are at 800hp.

With the R5P7 combo, it's really just a lack of knowledge about them and fear of the unknown. The blocks were a clean sheet design, not something that was adapted from a production block designed in the early 60's.