SAM Engine Masters Challenge Chrysler Poly 402ci

http://www.streetlegaltv.com/news/video-...ci-on-the-dyno/

impressive results and looks to boot !

Looks serious.

Kevin

Very cool......VERY expensive and VERY impractical for a real world build. As with most of these Engine Masters engines in the last few years, they are great at doing what they are built for, which is a competition, but useless for much else.

Cool motor, what did it end up making for power? That would be great for a street rodder who doesn't want a belly button engine.
Regarding the statement in the article that the poly was the forerunner of the Hemi, I wonder what they mean? The Hemi was Chryslers first V8, introduced as a 331 in 1951, but the poly didn't come about until 1955. It was introduced as a cost saver, using only 1 rocker shaft per head, and thus a smaller head casting. All 3 generations of Hemi heads use 2 rocker shafts and have nothing in common with the poly.

Joel I thought the same thing but didn't want to give my age away. Hemi's were first. Lol

Exactly.
The 1955-* poly was a reduced-cost V8 for the non-hemi brand (Plymouth), and a cheaper replacement for the high-end DeSoto and Chrysler that previously got a sidevalve L6 (237, 251, 265).

"Other engines permitted in Vintage V8 competition — which are engine families introduced in 1954 or earlier — include the Nailhead Buick, Y-Block Ford, and Packard V8."
BTW: also legal for 1954: Olds Rocket, Cadillac, Studebaker (?).
Yeah, that 1955-67 poly fits right in there.

If the start date is really 1955, this allows Chevy small block, Pontiac, Rambler, and Lincoln Y block (assuming all hemis have their own class).

Too bad they couldn't find anyone who knew something about the engine.
Ooppsss - some of the experts were right in the room. But reporters have a long tradition of "why ask, when you can just make stuff up?" (also true of all political events).

Just a guess at the cam specs:
1. short duration
2. very high accel & vel (test: the nominal and .050" durations are very close together)
3. very high ratio rockers, like 2:1
4. very small LSA, like 100

The article said they were at 1.5hp/ci @ 6000 rpm.

I was wondering the same thing about the poly being the daddy of the hemi, born 3 years later?

1.5 hp per cube at 402 CID = 600+ HP... is that even remotly possible with those heads? Never heard even the most optomistic of flow numbers getting anywhere close to enough air flow?

I am watching engine masters this year but it is just interesting and not much of a competetion as each class only has a handfull of participants. Looks like a couple of last years winning gen III hemis came back almost un changed and beat the other hemi in the challenge.

https://m.facebook.com/polysuperpac

They are claiming 330 cfm on their "modified" heads.

Kevin

Holy smokes that's a decent amount of air! Never mind Edelbrocks for a street street small block get a set of these! I know I know, they've had a mountain of work but it's still impressive, the canted valves probably help as well

Well, the intake valve is canted, the exhaust is at 0 degrees.

I looked at the facebook pictures, the piston sitting at zero deck is the Sealed Power P814CP which has a compression height of 1.755". In a 9.600" block with a 6.123" rod, the piston should be 0.067 down in the hole. And in the late LA 9.577" block, it should be 0.044" down. So how did they get it to zero deck? Either stroked the crank or a 6.2" rod.???

BTW, I love those $1000+ rocker arms, I'm going to buy a set right after I buy their $700 intake manifold. But wait, the Enginemasters entry didn't use it.

Years ago I was posting about Poly head flow and Brian at IMM replied that he had worked on some much earlier, lost the flow sheets, but he remembered that the best results came from moving the intake port up as far as it would go. But to go from 210cfm to 330 is beyond my wildest expectations.

R.

I hope those guys haven't quit their day jobs. As much as I love the Poly motor it isn't worth all the hype they're trying to stir up.

Haha! You and Monte should get together and enter and go to the EMC. The EMC is like the ultimate gearheads "Science Fair". Only this fair/expo is applied to engines within a specific set of rules. Very few "Big" name builders dare to enter. What would happen to their "status" if they had their arses handed to them--and most of them would BTW. lol J.Rob

Yep.......Kaase and BES are no names........LOL.........and it seems like they win more than they lose. Oakley Motorsports also has an entry this year. VERY well known in Top Sportsman, Top Dragster and tractor pulling circuits

Why do I need to enter. I don't have an engine shop and have way more important things to do than build some one off type "science project" motor for a competition, that would be of no use to me otherwise. Just because you put a lot of stock in it, doesn't mean everybody should...............but none of that changes what I said. Tell us how "practical" it is to build a 600hp poly headed Mopar, that likely cost them 20K or better to build, if they had to pay for all that stuff. The EFI stack injection alone would be 10k. Being that it is a SAM engine, that is something that Judson can use to teach principles and show what can be done...........but in real life, who else would build that and for what?

I ultimately respect the EMC competitors, what they do and the power they pull from unusual combinations, but it is not something that appeals to me in the least bit to actually do.

I know how much time and money Phillip spent on his motor and I know Kaase spends a crazy amount of time and money on his projects. I can't do that. Kaase's shop manager is a friend of mine, see him at the races all the time. He told me on some of those motors, that they have tried dozens of cams, several sets of heads, different rod lengths, different pistons, etc. That's a LOT of time and money. Tinkering and that competition is just something that John likes to do, so it's a no expense spared hobby for him

Got your blinders on Monte? I said VERY FEW big name builders enter. You mentioned Oakley--not me. You're right BES,Kaase, and SAM do win, that is not in dispute here. I never disputed the practical aspect of anything EMC-EVER. It is a CHALLENGE-just like maybe you approach or regard your nitrous projects-nothing more. SAM's engine likely cost WAY more than what you have stated by a fair margin I would wager. I never said "Everyone on planet Earth HAS to regard the EMC as the greatest event ever" Christ you'd make someone a good wife 'cuz you sure no how to [censored]. J.Rob

p.s. I give up--you're right I am wrong. Please forgive me honey 'er Monty.

I love engine masters because of the diversity of engines. Are they on the raged edge of grenading? Sure are! But so are the majority of race cars you make your bread and butter off of Monte. Doesn't mean what you do isn't awesome and can't be applied to "useful" street/race engines. Guess they could all use a spec engine but that would lose its shine quickly

Exactly what is it, you have your panties in a wad about? All I said was the motor was very cool, very expensive and very impractical........points you in fact agree with........Then you drug me in, by saying that I should enter the contest with some other guy after HE made a comment. YOU are the one who drug me in this debate.......and I really don't even see what you are disagreeing with me about. Seems you are the one being the "woman" here.......starting the whole thing and just arguing to be arguing

Seems you are in a toxic relationship with all things MOPAR.

Listen up everyone! Don't do anything or have interest in

anything Monte Smith doesn't approve of or else! J.Rob

[ Moparts Family Site - Keep it Friendly ] are you talking about.......YOU started this and are just arguing in a circle that is going nowhere, nor making a point......other than you don't like me for some reason. I don't even know you, nor have we ever spoken that I know of

Cool engine! Sounds like it has a lot of squeeze during cranking.

That's why it's a "Vintage Competition" ....wake up big guy

Rickster

Monte, read what's in this box as many times it takes till you see where the guys coming from. You totality dis-respected this endeavor by theses students and engine builders. What if it is impractical, Many things in life, including drag racing, is impractical but we still do it. They are learning something, and I applaud them.

I believe the guy with the puking pumpkin has it right. Thankyou puking pumpkin. J.Rob

I said the VERY same thing...........just that it was impractical for a "real world" build, which it is and Ramm agreed. I also said it was good teaching example for Judson and the kids at SAM and respected their ability to draw power from that type platform. Kaase will also get crazy power from a Y block Ford, but we all know guys will not be rushing to duplicate these motors, because they cost a fortune for the results you get. This is a "project" division and we all know it. I didn't disrespect anything. Some of you just want to argue

Plus, I know Judson and most of the guys at SAM personally, knew they were building this and talked to them about it. So I GUARANTEE he wouldn't think I was disrespecting him and really, HE is the only one I would be concerned with what they think regarding this project

Jesus y'all just want to argue in here to argue, I agree with what Monte said and like it or not he is right in his opinion. I didn't read any dis-respect in Monte's post neither but maybe I'm just crazy.

I dig the EMC, it shows what kicks a$$$ with the right combo in a rules setting. I mean come on, some guys enter to win, some enter to show what THEY can do. Who cares, I think its hellarious how much a$$$ kicking a 5.7 truck block Hemi has done to the LS guys. The DOHC Fords can shine with 49" twin primary boat headers and air plenums the size of a common bath tub, who give a f.....its cool and it pushes these guys to use their brains.

QFT

Well I like the fact that these guys were willing to take lots of unpaid hours and have to really think out of the box because these old motors that were really the baseline motors of most of our modern OHV Hot rodding have near ZERO Market out there for whatever they discovered. So it's all out of pure love and pure science for hot rodding. I don't know about y'all, but I respect that.

Did you ever have something laying around and tinker with it just to see if you could make it better than it was? That curiosity and necessity to just 'work with what I had' and what I could afford is pretty much the cornerstone of everything I ever learned about this hobby. At least the scope of this project wasn't anchored in "off the shelf" aftermarket parts, guys had to pretty much "hot rod" the old "junk".

The worst car projects I ever worked on I still wound-up learning something useful from...even if it was "yep, THAT was a waste of time!" It was still fun finding out.

I love that old tech, it makes you appreciate the innovation and tenacity the early hot rodders had. And some of the smartest and fastest hot rodders I know still have that fascination for the past...Look At Mike Daurity (Stephen's Dad); I had an absolute BLAST visiting with him and watching him fire up an old (early 1930's vintage maybe) Hit and Miss powered Farm Engine...I love the history of machinery, and this EM is kind of a nice break from the conventional modern "off the shelf" script.

You guys are gonna make me choke laughing!

Jrobbob or whatever can't remember through his hook in the pond with the most pitiful bait he could dig out the horses stall. A little challenge to Monte and someone else. Monte grabs that hook chomps hard and takes off with it. I'm an eager fish too, not talking smack. Then the pointless debates are on like donkey Kong.

Monte, take some advise from someone else who is also proud with tender toes. Let it go.

I think it is time for our country, all of us, to call a spade a spade when it is a spade Mopar quit making the Poly motors a long time ago for many reasons I know nothing of, the new LA motors where better on power per C.I. and probally cheaper to build I've owned and driven, maintain and rebuilt most of the ealry Mopar V8, poly and hemi, the new motors are better That is why it is called progress

Ok, here's my . Cool engine, it appears it was built for a certain class and hopefully it will do well against other vintage engines.

It impresses me if the HP numbers are accurate. Would I try to replicate it? No, but it proves with enough skill, time, money and the equipment to do it you can make good power with just about any engine platform.

Good job guys!

Very very very expensive 1 off parts in this build, but hey id stuff that beast in my ol 78 power wagon hillborn and all and have a helluva lot of fun.

Totally impractical,but very cool!

for many reasons I know nothing of

At that date (1955 model year), Chrysler had never built a "wedge" engine, although they were already on the market for 6 years (Olds, Caddy). It seems obvious to us, but at the time it was a "what if?" concept (prior to that, vertical OHV valves were common), which Buick got wrong at first.
After a few years, it looked like the wedge would work (the "B") and the valve gear would be cheaper than the poly. Finally, the LA in 1964.

In summation: cost and weight.

Can't wait to see the build thread on it, looks like they added aluminum plates on the intake and exhaust side. On the intake side it was likely to mount the stack injectors to but maybe also for reconfiguring the port?
I'll probably get chastised for this but this is the platform that SB racers/aftermarket/Mopar should've embraced 30 yrs ago. Canted valve, symmetrical port, lifted angles made for it etc. I know that ship has long sailed but that's my opinion. I'm not saying the exact stock valve angles are optimum (probably far from it) but all that can be moved around and played with, kind of like how BB Chevys have been tweaked far from their original configuration but are still "Chevy". Hope this line of thinking wasn't to impractical for some of you

I know this for sure...if that thing only makes 600HP a W-2 head with very little work would do that falling off a log, for way less cash.

We can wish on the what if's but most people bitched about buying rockers and headers and manifolds that were "W" series specific so why would moving the valve in the poly have been any different?

And small block heads were made that had valve angles and ports FAR superior to anything poly, but most of us couldn't get them, and the grand wizards of NHRA killed PST before most of that stuff was made in quantities that would fall to the lower classes.

I know the thing looks cool, and they guy at Chrylser Power is all wrapped up in the comeback of the poly but he is 15 years behind the last PST truck stuff and 35 years behind even W-2 stuff.

Without seeing more pictures it's hard to say, but the only thing they may have gained is SOME valvetrain stability with the poly valve lay out as that is what the the lifter bank angles were designed for. That too, has been accounted for in the blocks with 48* lifter bank angles.

It is really just a thing that was done to fit a class at EMC. As Monte said way back, cool but virtually useless as a product to the general public.

Just a guess but I would imagine they took a page from the SS Hemi play book and machined the intake and exhaust ports off as far as they could and bolted aluminum ones on that will flow the numbers.

Kevin

As I said in my post the ship for a Poly based race head sailed long ago, like 30+ yrs ago. So I agree completely but it's fun to think of what ifs. A W2 will make what this poly does easily for sure but it's still impressive

I guess I got a little off topic and here's what I meant:

I have nothing but love for the EMC Poly build, it's something I would love to do myself but money, equipment and time aren't there. Nontheless it's cool. RAAM, your last year's engine build was another over-the-edge build and I was wowed by that as well.

Where I got off topic was my rant on the push (by the Chrysler Power mag guys and Pavlovich) to try to make the Poly the next big thing. As was said above that ship sailed 30 years ago except it was 50! The last 4-barrel 318 Poly was built in 1962. The LA was built in its place for equivalent power and 50 lb weight reduction.

So the hoopla about Poly "superiority" is misguided at best and deceptive at worst. The biggest results I have seen so far are a bulge in the prices of Weiand 7503 intakes and huge increases in asking prices for Poly 318 blocks that should be giveaways.

R.

I just think it's friggin cool. EMC is not about practicality or building crate motors.

I'd put it up against a 348-409 Shivvy any day.

He wised off and brought me in the argument for NO reason Leon..........and you KNOW me. I am NOT gonna let that go without saying something.......LOL!!!! I only said the same as others and I got singled out, just made me feel special I guess.....HaHa.

And this EMC class was designed for stuff exactly like this. A place for Kaase, Judson and others to "go crazy" on something totally off the wall and see what if. I think it's very cool, but just very impractical, unless you have time and money to burn and I don't really see where anybody is not agreeing with that summation. Kinda like the guys who drop 40K on a killer flathead. Very cool, very expensive, lots of fun, just not something many others will try and duplicate

No offense,but can you explain what you just said in laymen terms??

What's funny: back in the day the Dodge poly was the fastest.

Now THAT's funny... F'burg VA can't understand what Lynchburg VA is saying!

Brad from Sterling VA

Thought the border was farther north??? Lol

All these Engine Masters engines have custom headers, intakes, camshafts, tuning etc. Doesn't that mean that it all boils down to a cylinder head competition of some sort? Perhaps they should have an OE Iron Head class? Keep in mind that these poly heads were designed for a 277-318 cubic inch engine! Does it really matter what some other engine/head combo can make? If we go that route all engines with a camshaft in the block are junk!
For those who want to say someone shouldn't build a certain engine type, you should really look into a small block chevy. They're cheap to build and can make about as much power as you want.

http://www.hotrod.com/events/1510-vintage-mopar-power-550hp-chrysler-poly-318-v8-on-the-dyno/

Would a single plane intake produce better numbers than the isolated runners? I remember the isolated runner intakes on the 60s era Hemis had a lot of gas stand off over carbs, not sure if this happens with fuel injection, but seems like they would work the same when valve closes.

Now it's time to test it with a real camshaft. I assume the duration numbers (230/234) are @ 0.050"

FYI - Vintage class rules specify a min of 3000 and a max of 6000 rpm for the dyno pulls.

550 hp is pretty impressive for that small of a cam. If there head flow numbers are accurate they could possibly twist 700+hp out of that boat anchor! I really want to see what they did to those heads.

As clearly stated at the linked web site in the very first post. Class winner was a similar size engine with more camshaft and not a lot more power. It seems to me that 3k-6k is too high for daily driving and too low for a race engine. I'm not an EM geek but have looked over results and specs and it seems that most engine builders use similar camshaft durations, I assume to tune where the torque and power peaks are to best fit the specified rpm range. I wonder if another 15-degrees of duration would have produced the same power and torque as the other guys.