Moparts
checking for hidden delay box
Posted By: rbkt65
checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 03:09 AM
how would you go about it? obviously if wire from button to solenoid is not one piece and is tapped into, I would say delay box installed. using an ohm meter from button to solenoid, if no box installed, should have continuity? if box is installed, using same test,would it show open until button is pushed down? thanks in advance rick
Posted By: dvw
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 03:24 AM
Be tough to tell if it were hidden. At zero delay it shouldn't read any different. I'm sure you could build a remote access delay adjuster. Use the stereo face as a screen and the buttons to adjust. Run the "exposed" wire through a grommet with the wires coming out in between of a faked double thickness panel. Personally with all the adjustable buttons and stuff I don't think it would be much of an advantage. Heck, I don't even run a trans brake.
Doug
Posted By: zzyzxpat
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 03:27 AM
Nothing like a cheater.
If I am going down the wrong road, I apologize in advance.
Pat
Posted By: Dragula
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 03:31 AM
You would never find it....The person installing would already know that...And besides, its easier now. You just program it.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 03:31 AM
Yeah with the trans brake buttons now it wouldnt be
worth getting caught with a box.. I've had tech go
all over my car at some no box races.. they knew that
I normally run in box but I could pull my box and plug
in a jumper and I was ready for no box
Posted By: Dragula
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 03:42 AM
Posted By: W.I.N. Racing
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 03:44 AM
Here's how we do it, we just ask the driver to power up the car (no engine running) and push the TB button and listen for the Click after release...no delay means no delay. Usally we do this in the pits but when in doubt it has been done in the stageing lanes. We also stand at the starters box and watch when it is suspected.
After reading this post we will be checking Randys car twice
dont forget the Meeting 3/29 @ 1pm
Posted By: Dragula
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 03:56 AM
Quote:
Here's how we do it, we just ask the driver to power up the car (no engine running) and push the TB button and listen for the Click after release...no delay means no delay. Usally we do this in the pits but when in doubt it has been done in the stageing lanes. We also stand at the starters box and watch when it is suspected.
After reading this post we will be checking Randys car twice dont forget the Meeting 3/29 @ 1pm
Your funny Bill, I will bring more money to the meeting, you take cash, right?....But to my point, creativity is the mother of all inventions, and the people that do use them know a lot more about them than the average tech guy...Now with that said, I don't even use the trans brake except to back the car up...
You might want to read the article I posted though...You won't see any difference in the "click" by releasing the TB.....
Posted By: rbkt65
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 04:00 AM
not cheating sir no offence taken starting 2nd go round at gateway motorsports park and used to have homemade checker and lost it. there is a post on crossbones motorsports that is 18 pages long about buttons and cheaters and boxes. trying to smarten up thanks for all posts rick
Posted By: theraif
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 04:50 AM
about 10 yrs ago when they started letting t=brakes in 0-11.99 classes we were talking adj. long throw switches
Posted By: ChrisJohnston669
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 12:05 PM
Quote:
Here's how we do it, we just ask the driver to power up the car (no engine running) and push the TB button and listen for the Click after release...no delay means no delay. Usally we do this in the pits but when in doubt it has been done in the stageing lanes. We also stand at the starters box and watch when it is suspected.
After reading this post we will be checking Randys car twice dont forget the Meeting 3/29 @ 1pm
That works fine unless the delay box has a on/off switch lol
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 12:24 PM
Quote:
Just look up slew rate and index racing....
[url=http://etdragracing.com/magazine/2014-autumn/dead-on-why-is-bracket-racing-the-only-form-of-racing-without-rules?fb_action_ids=743961339005287&fb_action_types=og.comments&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B274256132698516%5D&action_type_map=%5B"og.comments"%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D]http://etdragracing.com/magazine/2014-au..._ref_map=%5B%5D[/url]
thats all opinion and speculation. the technology has been there for many years. I am sure there are a few low lifes that would still cheat to win. and there are rules preventing it in bracket racing just not policed.
Posted By: slantzilla
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 01:18 PM
Joliet used to have a program that varied the timing of the amber lights. If you were using a box on the top bulb you would go red. You could see the second amber hang on just a little extra.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 03:34 PM
Quote:
Joliet used to have a program that varied the timing of the amber lights. If you were using a box on the top bulb you would go red. You could see the second amber hang on just a little extra.
A lot of tracks use it.. I believe its called cross talk
Posted By: Dragula
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 03:37 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Just look up slew rate and index racing....
[url=http://etdragracing.com/magazine/2014-autumn/dead-on-why-is-bracket-racing-the-only-form-of-racing-without-rules?fb_action_ids=743961339005287&fb_action_types=og.comments&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B274256132698516%5D&action_type_map=%5B"og.comments"%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D]http://etdragracing.com/magazine/2014-au..._ref_map=%5B%5D[/url]
thats all opinion and speculation. the technology has been there for many years. I am sure there are a few low lifes that would still cheat to win. and there are rules preventing it in bracket racing just not policed.
Either you didn't read the article, or nobody is using it then....
Posted By: kissmyaspen
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 03:42 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Joliet used to have a program that varied the timing of the amber lights. If you were using a box on the top bulb you would go red. You could see the second amber hang on just a little extra.
A lot of tracks use it.. I believe its called cross talk
Not Cross talk. cross talk is on the top bulb. Both top bulbs come on when cross talk is on.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 03:51 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Joliet used to have a program that varied the timing of the amber lights. If you were using a box on the top bulb you would go red. You could see the second amber hang on just a little extra.
A lot of tracks use it.. I believe its called cross talk
Not Cross talk. cross talk is on the top bulb. Both top bulbs come on when cross talk is on.
Correct... both top bulbs come on together then the
lane waiting it turns on the second bulb later
Posted By: slantzilla
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 04:15 PM
Yes, in any class using Cross Talk a box would be legal anyway.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 04:40 PM
Quote:
Yes, in any class using Cross Talk a box would be legal anyway.
Correct.. they came up with that so you couldnt get
the extra hit starting on their light
Posted By: Leon441
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 04:57 PM
Quote:
Just look up slew rate and index racing....
[url=http://etdragracing.com/magazine/2014-autumn/dead-on-why-is-bracket-racing-the-only-form-of-racing-without-rules?fb_action_ids=743961339005287&fb_action_types=og.comments&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B274256132698516%5D&action_type_map=%5B"og.comments"%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D]http://etdragracing.com/magazine/2014-au..._ref_map=%5B%5D[/url]
This nothing more than someone who fears what he doesn't understand. If he had ever tried to use slew rate to control traction or to run an index he would know it knocks the momentum out of the car and spews fire out of the pipe as raw file lights when efficient combustions resumes.
I run a 7531 in the index's. I use a lot of its tricks. Others use weight, weather stations with et calculators, adjustable restricted plates, & timed shifts. Are these methods cheating? No the author can understand these methods. But, slew rate as advertised by MSD is majic and works perfect. My suggestion is buy the box and let me know how it works for you. 99.9% of 7531 racers do not use slew rate. The .1% who do are wondering what is wrong with their car.
If/when you become loaded on the trailer. Come by and I will show what I do to run the index with 00's. You will not find anything in the slew rate.
Leon
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 05:18 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Just look up slew rate and index racing....
[url=http://etdragracing.com/magazine/2014-autumn/dead-on-why-is-bracket-racing-the-only-form-of-racing-without-rules?fb_action_ids=743961339005287&fb_action_types=og.comments&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B274256132698516%5D&action_type_map=%5B"og.comments"%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D]http://etdragracing.com/magazine/2014-au..._ref_map=%5B%5D[/url]
thats all opinion and speculation. the technology has been there for many years. I am sure there are a few low lifes that would still cheat to win. and there are rules preventing it in bracket racing just not policed.
Either you didn't read the article, or nobody is using it then....
I read a guys opinion on what he thinks, nothing more
Posted By: theraif
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 06:45 PM
Posted By: 340B5
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/18/15 07:02 PM
Quote:
not cheating sir no offence taken starting 2nd go round at gateway motorsports park and used to have homemade checker and lost it. there is a post on crossbones motorsports that is 18 pages long about buttons and cheaters and boxes. trying to smarten up thanks for all posts rick
Meaning you'll be teching cars again?
Posted By: rbkt65
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/19/15 02:18 AM
yes sir I had fun last time but head guy made a lot of us mad so I didn't go back I enjoy being around the people and cars don't know how I will do for a 64 year old man but going to try to have fun. they are going to run my wagon on 28th I think if weather ok will be strange seeing my car going down track without me in it. but....
Posted By: rickstershemi
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/19/15 02:33 AM
NO BOX SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO RUN A TRANSBRAKE PERIOD.....HAS RUINED THE CLASS
Rickster
Posted By: Leon441
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/19/15 02:52 AM
I would tend to agree. But, you can tell the electronics to start timing on the release of the footbrake. All you have to do is remove 12 volts from the input. Knows guy who did this for a local racer. I don't agree with cheating.
Posted By: justinp61
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/19/15 03:00 AM
Quote:
NO BOX SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO RUN A TRANSBRAKE PERIOD.....HAS RUINED THE CLASS
Rickster
At my closest track they run transbrakes and air/electric shifters in no box. Hardly any foot brake classes around here anymore.
Posted By: rickstershemi
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/19/15 03:04 AM
Quote:
I would tend to agree. But, you can tell the electronics to start timing on the release of the footbrake. All you have to do is remove 12 volts from the input. Knows guy who did this for a local racer. I don't agree with cheating.
That would still involve a T-Brake and I said NO T-Brakes.....kinda hard to hide a trans-brake 
Rickster
Posted By: dvw
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/19/15 03:37 AM
I have no fear of running against trans brakes while foot braking. However a really good driver with a trans brake is tough. But a trans brake doesn't make everyone a hero. I also agree no electronics should be no electronics, period.
Doug
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/19/15 03:48 AM
Quote:
I have no fear of running against trans brakes while foot braking. However a really good driver with a trans brake is tough. But a trans brake doesn't make everyone a hero. I also agree no electronics should be no electronics, period.
Doug
But in this division the trans brake is legal in
the no E class... I put it in because its legal
EDIT
I didnt put it in the Rampage because its not legal
in DD on DW... if I just wanted to race it here in
div 3 I would have put it in but I built it for DW
Posted By: sgcuda
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/19/15 04:12 AM
I run a 4 speed. What is this strange language of t-brake and delay box and cheating that is being spoken of?
Posted By: kissmyaspen
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/19/15 04:09 PM
If people want to cheat they will. proven fact all you can do is look for little hints. I footbrake and I could careless if the guy next to me has a T-brake. I run Box class sometimes to footbraking.
Posted By: Dragula
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/19/15 05:22 PM
Quote:
Quote:
NO BOX SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO RUN A TRANSBRAKE PERIOD.....HAS RUINED THE CLASS
Rickster
At my closest track they run transbrakes and air/electric shifters in no box. Hardly any foot brake classes around here anymore.
I see that more and more these days...Most tracks allow them in no box...I have TB and as stated its only used to back the car up. I have tried it a couple of times, but preferred foot braking...
What I found was just the preloading of the suspension on the foot brake as I lightly staged the car, and then released the foot brake when the TB was pressed allowed the car to move enough to make it impossible to repeat. The stock front suspension with all of its +30 years of abuse and old rubbery joints is not repeatable enough in a relaxed state. Even creeping in at an idle was enough to change RT....Since I put the new front suspension in, I have not tried it...But any play when taking your foot off the brakes and transitioning to TB that might allow the car to move a little is just not repeatable.
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/19/15 06:15 PM
Quote:
If people want to cheat they will. proven fact all you can do is look for little hints. I footbrake and I could careless if the guy next to me has a T-brake. I run Box class sometimes to footbraking.
This right here^^^^^^^^^ Run your own car, take care of your own business and stop worrying about what everybody else is doing and you will likely win more.
Monte
Posted By: cudaman1969
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/19/15 09:17 PM
I agree, YOU control who wins the race in bracket racing! The person can only make it harder or easier for you to win, he has no control of what you do. Cut a perfect light and run the number,you win,period. Worrying what the other guy is doing looses more races because he gets in your head. What's in the other lane can be dogs,tigers, trees or houses, in fact nothing need be there since you are running on time only with your package. He can have all the tricks but they don't work unless YOU let them.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/19/15 09:45 PM
Quote:
I agree, YOU control who wins the race in bracket racing! The person can only make it harder or easier for you to win, he has no control of what you do. Cut a perfect light and run the number,you win,period. Worrying what the other guy is doing looses more races because he gets in your head. What's in the other lane can be dogs,tigers, trees or houses, in fact nothing need be there since you are running on time only with your package. He can have all the tricks but they don't work unless YOU let them.
Your almost right... when my brother and I were racing
a guy(now a top fuel driver.. was a pro stock driver)
we had some very good packages but he always had a
better one... then we learned about a thing called
a Matty box... enough said
Posted By: kissmyaspen
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/19/15 09:54 PM
I was wondering how long it was going to take for the Dirty Dozen to come up. They did get banded from IHRA and Norwalk except for the divisional and national event. But they did not find what they really did.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/19/15 10:17 PM
Quote:
I was wondering how long it was going to take for the Dirty Dozen to come up. They did get banded from IHRA and Norwalk except for the divisional and national event. But they did not find what they really did.
No they did not find anything... they beat feet before
they could check them... we use to run Norwalk a lot
and did up to a couple of years ago when I really
backed off on racing... still love that track
Posted By: Eric
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/19/15 10:38 PM
I won't beat the horse but yes Bader found out how they were winning. And it was shown to him.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/19/15 10:42 PM
Quote:
I won't beat the horse but yes Bader found out how they were winning. And it was shown to him.
Yep... I commend the Baders for what they did..
those are good people
Posted By: cudaman1969
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/20/15 04:29 AM
If he had something that changed his time package it would be the only way to beat your perfect package. Maybe something to change the time difference in the tree, in effect slowing your side down.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/20/15 04:37 AM
Quote:
If he had something that changed his time package it would be the only way to beat your perfect package. Maybe something to change the time difference in the tree, in effect slowing your side down.
I never said we had a perfect package... but if I beat
him on the tree he came up with a dead on with a zero
and I had a 2.. wasnt only me either... but it finally
came out... that was 2 weeks later.. one of the guys
spilled the beans after Bader had a talk
Posted By: cudaman1969
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/20/15 05:07 AM
Sounds like what some guy was doing a long while ago, had some high frequency box that would wreck havoc with the ignition system so the engine ran bad. He did it at the starting line and was easy to catch him using it. I imagine it would have been less obvious down the track at the end. It worked very well against the solid plug wires everyone was using at that time.
Posted By: Dragula
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/20/15 05:19 AM
Wouldn't it be easier to time the big end since everyone is watching the starting line....It would be easy to hide a small relay & timer that was set to a couple hundredths below your dial in and turned on the rev limiter at that exact time on the big end. No one would be likely to hear it down track as well and it would give the driver time to switch it off if they wanted too...
Curious, what did they find with the guy at Norwalk?
Posted By: kissmyaspen
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/20/15 03:18 PM
Maddy Innovations. they used to have a web page. now you can so what they did with the grid ignition box.
Posted By: SportF
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/20/15 04:13 PM
Quote:
Maddy Innovations. they used to have a web page. now you can so what they did with the grid ignition box.
You are right Dustin, and I don't think folks realize how this can foul up racing. Check out Gary Hairfield on the west coast. In either 2010 or 2011 he was track champ at 3 (three!) different tracks. Dialing an 8.04 at 1/8 mile at 100 mph, he would stay at that dial no matter how the night temps changed at Barona (San Diego). At the same time, I was running 7.30 at 95 mph (this is pro class).
DJ Detloff was another racer out there with the same set up, both these guys running 08 or 09 Corvettes. I don't know if they programmed the stock computer, or if aftermarket, the results were the same. That is, never change the dial all night long, always run the same number. Yes, they cut good lights, but when you see the same guys wining time after time its discouraging.
Out there you have some Mustang racers banging gears and trying to compete, its not worth the trip.
NHRA, you better get a handle on this or start a class for slew rates, but keep this stuff the heck out of non-electronics!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: cudasteve68
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/20/15 05:53 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I won't beat the horse but yes Bader found out how they were winning. And it was shown to him.
Yep... I commend the Baders for what they did..
those are good people
Baders were forced to make something happen before major happened.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/20/15 06:09 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I won't beat the horse but yes Bader found out how they were winning. And it was shown to him.
Yep... I commend the Baders for what they did..
those are good people
Baders were forced to make something happen before major happened.
Yes they were... but they could have said nothing
and looked the other way.... but they didnt.. if
they didnt do anything it would have hurt their
business and they run a good track and try to keep
things on a even keel
Posted By: cudasteve68
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/20/15 09:50 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I won't beat the horse but yes Bader found out how they were winning. And it was shown to him.
Yep... I commend the Baders for what they did..
those are good people
Baders were forced to make something happen before major happened.
Yes they were... but they could have said nothing
and looked the other way.... but they didnt.. if
they didnt do anything it would have hurt their
business and they run a good track and try to keep
things on a even keel
I am just saying that things were very ugly when things came to ahead. From what I know first hand there were more then 12. Many of them pulled the stuff when rumors started about the Matty Boxes being used. I know of a car that changed hands a few times that won an IHRA National ET Championship that still has brackets that a Matty Box & a delay box will bolt up to that was not part of the dozen.
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/20/15 10:29 PM
Its already been said......a guy who REALLY wants to cheat will and there is not much you can do about it. Aside from having a VERY experienced, large, capable tech crew. Then how many want to sit in a long tech line for a weekly bracket race. It could take a LONG time to REALLY check a car closely. Why do you think many NHRA classes have "spec" parts. Simply makes it easier for tech. You plug in to the ignition box and look what it can do. 7531 boxes are not allowed in many classes. You can change the sticker, but as soon as they plug to it, they KNOW. But with todays electronics, the ability to do lots of things is there. If you choose to run "no box", you can pretty much assure yourself that SOMEBODY is cheating. You have several choices. One is do what you do and not worry about everyone else. Two, join the fray and be sneaky yourself. Three, run the Pro class, or four.......stay home.
Monte
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/20/15 10:42 PM
Quote:
Its already been said......a guy who REALLY wants to cheat will and there is not much you can do about it. Aside from having a VERY experienced, large, capable tech crew. Then how many want to sit in a long tech line for a weekly bracket race. It could take a LONG time to REALLY check a car closely. Why do you think many NHRA classes have "spec" parts. Simply makes it easier for tech. You plug in to the ignition box and look what it can do. 7531 boxes are not allowed in many classes. You can change the sticker, but as soon as they plug to it, they KNOW. But with todays electronics, the ability to do lots of things is there. If you choose to run "no box", you can pretty much assure yourself that SOMEBODY is cheating. You have several choices. One is do what you do and not worry about everyone else. Two, join the fray and be sneaky yourself. Three, run the Pro class, or four.......stay home.
Monte
I hear ya Monte... we raced with the guys cheating
(not knowing they were)but we kept trying to get better..
when we raced the one guy we did take home some money
that night but we didnt win
Posted By: Irun5snd8th
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/30/15 04:12 AM
Just because a guy doesnt change his dial doesnt mean he's cheating. I RARELY change my dial. There are multiple reasons why and they have nothing to do with cheating.
Posted By: slantzilla
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/30/15 01:09 PM
Quote:
Just because a guy doesnt change his dial doesnt mean he's cheating. I RARELY change my dial. There are multiple reasons why and they have nothing to do with cheating.
Big motor, big tire cars will rarely change much, especially on alcohol.
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: checking for hidden delay box - 03/30/15 05:36 PM
Quote:
Just because a guy doesnt change his dial doesnt mean he's cheating. I RARELY change my dial. There are multiple reasons why and they have nothing to do with cheating.
exactly,we had the division 2 director come ask to inspect my sons Jr Dragster at a race one time. somebody complained we had a delay box in it I am serious