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Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations

Posted By: Benforsp

Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/16/15 05:40 PM

Hello All,

I am looking to upgrade the fuel system on my car to support the motor. The car is setup with a stock tank (e-body)and the small block 5/16 lines. The new motor is a BB stroker with Indy -1 heads. The car is a street car, but would like it to be compliant for the track. I am open to use the stock lines or a 3/8 stock lines etc. I am more concerned with function the form. The motor is currently carbed but the next step after the fuel system is a EFI conversion, so it will need to be a return system able to support both carb and EFI.Thanks for all the forthcoming advice!

Simon
Posted By: Cudajon

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/16/15 05:57 PM

I'm sure the recommendation will be for a 1/2" line or better, but just for your info, I put in a new 3/8" line for my build. I left the old line in and it became My return line. It works very good. I run the setup used for the Hemi's were the return line exits from the fuel filter.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/16/15 06:17 PM

I would suggest a 3/8" min supply and the same for
the return.. if your going with EFI it will need a
good return.. I myself run a 1/2" supply and return
with my set up.. it was carbed but now I run a Holley
multi point EFI and the system is good up to 700 hp..
if I were to go more than that I would need a bigger
pump and injectors.. the rest will work... the issue
with a 3/8 line that I dont like is the bends.. if
you get any kink at all it reduces the flow... the
ID is already 5/16" on a 3/8"
EDIT
Also... if you keep the stock tank I would add a sump
to it... injection doesnt like to have air sucked
in and if you run low in the tank it will suck air
in
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/16/15 09:00 PM

Quote:

I would suggest a 3/8" min supply and the same for
the return.. if your going with EFI it will need a
good return.. I myself run a 1/2" supply and return
with my set up.. it was carbed but now I run a Holley
multi point EFI and the system is good up to 700 hp..
if I were to go more than that I would need a bigger
pump and injectors.. the rest will work... the issue
with a 3/8 line that I dont like is the bends.. if
you get any kink at all it reduces the flow... the
ID is already 5/16" on a 3/8"
EDIT
Also... if you keep the stock tank I would add a sump
to it... injection doesnt like to have air sucked
in and if you run low in the tank it will suck air
in


Bigger is better when it comes to fuel line sizes, my next race car will have a 5/8 O.D. fuel ine with a 1/2 minumim return line, that is Carbureted, not EFI I'll put on what ever size the fuel stystem, probally Magnafuel, company recommends
Posted By: Benforsp

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/16/15 11:36 PM

Seems as though bigger is better as you never know where you will end up. I have noticed there are more hose choices available these days that still meet the track rules. You are not required to buy these stainless braid anymore. Any experience with the push-lock hose? Seems priced right and would think it would be easy to work with? The price difference between -8 and -10 is pretty minimal...Not sure if it is compliant with the new fuels though?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/16/15 11:44 PM

Quote:

Seems as though bigger is better as you never know where you will end up. I have noticed there are more hose choices available these days that still meet the track rules. You are not required to buy these stainless braid anymore. Any experience with the push-lock hose? Seems priced right and would think it would be easy to work with? The price difference between -8 and -10 is pretty minimal...Not sure if it is compliant with the new fuels though?



I havent used any push lock but I do use the black
braided hose with alum fittings... if you run a hose
that has a Viton liner its good for any fuel... I
use the standard black braided and its good for pump
gas since thats what I run which can have 10% ethanol
Posted By: Chris2581

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/17/15 02:25 AM

Quote:

Seems as though bigger is better as you never know where you will end up. I have noticed there are more hose choices available these days that still meet the track rules. You are not required to buy these stainless braid anymore. Any experience with the push-lock hose? Seems priced right and would think it would be easy to work with? The price difference between -8 and -10 is pretty minimal...Not sure if it is compliant with the new fuels though?



I'm using Aeroquip push lok hose and pump gas with no problems.
Posted By: ahy

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/17/15 02:51 AM

I used the steel lines (3/8 supply, 5/16 return) for my EFI setup. Works great on a healthy 496 with tank in pump. I used short lengths of SS braided line at the tank and engine ends to make the connections.

With EFI, you need pump in tank or a sump to get decent pump life and ability to use all fuel tank capacity. EFI pumps do not like to suck.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/17/15 04:16 AM

Quote:

I used the steel lines (3/8 supply, 5/16 return)EFI pumps do not like to suck.

I don't think any electric fuel pumps like to suck, they push better than suck usually.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/17/15 05:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I used the steel lines (3/8 supply, 5/16 return)EFI pumps do not like to suck.

I don't think any electric fuel pumps like to suck, they push better than suck usually.



Pumps dont suck.. they create the negative pressure
so atmospheric pressure can push in the fuel(or oil
like in a oil pump)
Posted By: Benforsp

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/17/15 08:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I used the steel lines (3/8 supply, 5/16 return)EFI pumps do not like to suck.

I don't think any electric fuel pumps like to suck, they push better than suck usually.



Pumps dont suck.. they create the negative pressure
so atmospheric pressure can push in the fuel(or oil
like in a oil pump)





So while its in its carb version am I going to be able to pull the fuel out of the tank using the stock pickup.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/17/15 08:12 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I used the steel lines (3/8 supply, 5/16 return)EFI pumps do not like to suck.

I don't think any electric fuel pumps like to suck, they push better than suck usually.



Pumps dont suck.. they create the negative pressure
so atmospheric pressure can push in the fuel(or oil
like in a oil pump)





So while its in its carb version am I going to be able to pull the fuel out of the tank using the stock pickup.



Yes but if your running more power than stock a larger
pick up would be nice(depending on whats there now)
Posted By: ahy

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/18/15 02:06 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I used the steel lines (3/8 supply, 5/16 return)EFI pumps do not like to suck.

I don't think any electric fuel pumps like to suck, they push better than suck usually.



Pumps dont suck.. they create the negative pressure
so atmospheric pressure can push in the fuel(or oil
like in a oil pump)





So while its in its carb version am I going to be able to pull the fuel out of the tank using the stock pickup.



Yes but if your running more power than stock a larger
pick up would be nice(depending on whats there now)





Moderate size carb electric pumps seem to handle the stock pickup OK... many members have good luck. As posted above, a bigger pickup is better. 3/8" minimum, 1/2" preferred. Somebody with more experience will likely post good combos.

EFI pumps just don't work very well or long with the restriction of the stock style pickup. I toasted a couple as have others before going to pump in tank (or sump). Fuel system upgrade for EFI can get involved so maybe best to pick a pump to cover the carb for now and deal with the EFI requirements later.
Posted By: Benforsp

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/18/15 02:20 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I used the steel lines (3/8 supply, 5/16 return)EFI pumps do not like to suck.

I don't think any electric fuel pumps like to suck, they push better than suck usually.



Pumps dont suck.. they create the negative pressure
so atmospheric pressure can push in the fuel(or oil
like in a oil pump)





So while its in its carb version am I going to be able to pull the fuel out of the tank using the stock pickup.



Yes but if your running more power than stock a larger
pick up would be nice(depending on whats there now)





Moderate size carb electric pumps seem to handle the stock pickup OK... many members have good luck. As posted above, a bigger pickup is better. 3/8" minimum, 1/2" preferred. Somebody with more experience will likely post good combos.

EFI pumps just don't work very well or long with the restriction of the stock style pickup. I toasted a couple as have others before going to pump in tank (or sump). Fuel system upgrade for EFI can get involved so maybe best to pick a pump to cover the carb for now and deal with the EFI requirements later.



That is the plan...the carb pump will be something to get me by and will definetly go with an in tank solution for EFI (Phantom Maybe?) but I would like the lines and anything I can put on it to be compatible so I don't have to duplicate anything. That's why I want the line sizing correct etc. The current pickup is a replacement and it's 3/8". I just want to make sure it will do for now. All the suggestions are great. I have flirted with E-85 as it is coming to this area slowly so I am really only looking to minimize any possible "redo" work. Hopefully, the push lock stuff will work and a simple pump for now.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/18/15 04:23 AM

That is the plan...the carb pump will be something to get me by and will definetly go with an in tank solution for EFI (Phantom Maybe?) but I would like the lines and anything I can put on it to be compatible so I don't have to duplicate anything. That's why I want the line sizing correct etc. The current pickup is a replacement and it's 3/8". I just want to make sure it will do for now. All the suggestions are great. I have flirted with E-85 as it is coming to this area slowly so I am really only looking to minimize any possible "redo" work. Hopefully, the push lock stuff will work and a simple pump for now.



You can do a little math work and a flow test to
see if your currant set up will work for carb or EFI..
you need .5 PPH of fuel per HP so if you do a flow
test you can find out if you have enough line or
need more flow rate... you can use a base fuel for
your measurements
Posted By: ahy

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/18/15 06:14 AM

The stock replacement steel lines (3/8" supply, 5/16" return) work great on the pressure side of my EFI setup. Mine is a ~550 HP 496 with pump rated for 700 HP. Would probably work fine with higher HP as long as the pump has an un-restricted feed (pump in tank or sump with -10 lines or bigger feeding the high pressure pump inlet).
Posted By: Benforsp

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/18/15 04:35 PM

Quote:

The stock replacement steel lines (3/8" supply, 5/16" return) work great on the pressure side of my EFI setup. Mine is a ~550 HP 496 with pump rated for 700 HP. Would probably work fine with higher HP as long as the pump has an un-restricted feed (pump in tank or sump with -10 lines or bigger feeding the high pressure pump inlet).



My concern is I have the smaller lines and didn't think they would be sufficient. I figured I would need to upgrade and looking at the cost of the prebent stainless lines they are about the same cost as going with larger push-lock or stainless braid. I figured why not upgrade for the future?
Posted By: FlyFish

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/18/15 05:10 PM

I have 1/2" push lock hose on my car from regulator to carb and it works great (1/2" hard line from cell to regulator). It is a bit of a pain to "push" the fittings into the hose, but after the trial and error approach, I found that putting the end of the hose in boiling water for 15-30 seconds then jamming it on the fitting worked best.

My car is on e85 if that helps.
Posted By: Benforsp

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/18/15 07:06 PM

Quote:

I have 1/2" push lock hose on my car from regulator to carb and it works great (1/2" hard line from cell to regulator). It is a bit of a pain to "push" the fittings into the hose, but after the trial and error approach, I found that putting the end of the hose in boiling water for 15-30 seconds then jamming it on the fitting worked best.

My car is on e85 if that helps.



Flyfish,

What brand are you using for push-lock hose? Do they give you any trouble at the track?
Posted By: RobbMc

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/19/15 01:21 AM

Our PowerSurge would be ideal. No need to change the fuel lines or the fuel tank. Can be used with carbs or FI by changing the regulator:

http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products/powersurge.html
Posted By: Benforsp

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/19/15 02:20 AM

Quote:

Our PowerSurge would be ideal. No need to change the fuel lines or the fuel tank. Can be used with carbs or FI by changing the regulator:

http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products/powersurge.html



Well, having just dealt with a situation where someone told me the deal I was presenting was too be good to be true, I find my self in the same situation.... I have seen the surge tank solution and this seems really nice. Does it require the mechanical pump as I do not have provision for one? Can it be mounted at the back of the car? This is very intriguing!
Posted By: RobbMc

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/19/15 02:58 AM

Quote:


Well, having just dealt with a situation where someone told me the deal I was presenting was too be good to be true, I find my self in the same situation.... I have seen the surge tank solution and this seems really nice. Does it require the mechanical pump as I do not have provision for one? Can it be mounted at the back of the car? This is very intriguing!



You can mount it anywhere it will fit as long as it is upright (or nearly so). But you do need a "lift pump" to feed the surge tank. Normally a mechanical pump is used as the lift pump but you could also use a small electric pump. Even 40 gph would be plenty.
Posted By: Benforsp

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/19/15 08:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Well, having just dealt with a situation where someone told me the deal I was presenting was too be good to be true, I find my self in the same situation.... I have seen the surge tank solution and this seems really nice. Does it require the mechanical pump as I do not have provision for one? Can it be mounted at the back of the car? This is very intriguing!



You can mount it anywhere it will fit as long as it is upright (or nearly so). But you do need a "lift pump" to feed the surge tank. Normally a mechanical pump is used as the lift pump but you could also use a small electric pump. Even 40 gph would be plenty.



Well, I am hoping the system would be quiet...so to clarify you are saying I could run...say a Walboro external pump of the existing sender to your 1000 Surge system using the 5/16 line as a feed and the 1/4 vapor as a return and it would support a 100 hp? I am lead to believe the smaller line size would add heat to the fuel and considering how much would be flowing back through the return at idle..would it be better to run larger lines?
Posted By: RobbMc

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/19/15 09:17 PM

The PowerSurge is ideal for, and was designed for, the customer who is starting with a completely stock fuel system and has recently increased the horsepower (and/or switched to EFI) such that the stock fuel system will no longer suffice.
The PowerSurge is designed to be used with the stock fuel lines, stock mechanical pump and stock fuel tank. It eliminates the need for a sumped/baffled tank or a fuel cell.

It does require a return/bypass regulator but the return line runs from the regulator to the PowerSurge, not back to the fuel tank (so it normally makes the most sense to mount the unit in the engine compartment).

Using larger fuel lines to and from the fuel tank does nothing to improve performance. Using a high performance fuel pump to feed the PowerSurge does nothing to improve performance. A stock mechanical pump is fine. (The stock pump is just used to keep the PowerSurge topped off with fuel). If you can't run a stock mechanical pump, a small electric pump mounted as low and as close to the fuel tank as possible will also work but a stock mechanical pump is usually more dependable and quieter.
Posted By: Benforsp

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/19/15 09:26 PM

Quote:

The PowerSurge is ideal for, and was designed for, the customer who is starting with a completely stock fuel system and has recently increased the horsepower (and/or switched to EFI) such that the stock fuel system will no longer suffice.
The PowerSurge is designed to be used with the stock fuel lines, stock mechanical pump and stock fuel tank. It eliminates the need for a sumped/baffled tank or a fuel cell.

It does require a return/bypass regulator but the return line runs from the regulator to the PowerSurge, not back to the fuel tank (so it normally makes the most sense to mount the unit in the engine compartment).

Using larger fuel lines to and from the fuel tank does nothing to improve performance. Using a high performance fuel pump to feed the PowerSurge does nothing to improve performance. A stock mechanical pump is fine. (The stock pump is just used to keep the PowerSurge topped off with fuel). If you can't run a stock mechanical pump, a small electric pump mounted as low and as close to the fuel tank as possible will also work but a stock mechanical pump is usually more dependable and quieter.




I don't have a provision for a stock pump so I had thought to run an electric pump to the surge and mount everything in the back using the existing feed line and then hook the return to the vapor line and run it back to your surge tank. The Walboro pump is relatively cheap and quiet from what I understand. I would hate to have a holley back there howling away...do you have a different suggestion?
Posted By: RobbMc

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/19/15 09:39 PM

Quote:


I don't have a provision for a stock pump so I had thought to run an electric pump to the surge and mount everything in the back using the existing feed line and then hook the return to the vapor line and run it back to your surge tank. The Walboro pump is relatively cheap and quiet from what I understand. I would hate to have a holley back there howling away...do you have a different suggestion?



Well, the stock 5/16" fuel line from the stock tank to the PowerSurge is fine. However, the fuel line to and from the PowerSurge and the carb/FI will need to be at least 3/8", possibly 1/2", depending on how much power you make. So, if you mount the PowerSurge in the back of the car, you end up running larger lines the length of the car, which negates some of the advantages of the PowerSurge.

Since you can't run a stock mechanical pump, and since you don't want to mount the PowerSurge near the front of the car, the PowerSurge isn't ideal for you after all. Sorry. It's really designed to be mounted near the front of the car and to make it easy to upgrade an existing stock system.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/19/15 09:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The PowerSurge is ideal for, and was designed for, the customer who is starting with a completely stock fuel system and has recently increased the horsepower (and/or switched to EFI) such that the stock fuel system will no longer suffice.
The PowerSurge is designed to be used with the stock fuel lines, stock mechanical pump and stock fuel tank. It eliminates the need for a sumped/baffled tank or a fuel cell.

It does require a return/bypass regulator but the return line runs from the regulator to the PowerSurge, not back to the fuel tank (so it normally makes the most sense to mount the unit in the engine compartment).

Using larger fuel lines to and from the fuel tank does nothing to improve performance. Using a high performance fuel pump to feed the PowerSurge does nothing to improve performance. A stock mechanical pump is fine. (The stock pump is just used to keep the PowerSurge topped off with fuel). If you can't run a stock mechanical pump, a small electric pump mounted as low and as close to the fuel tank as possible will also work but a stock mechanical pump is usually more dependable and quieter.




I don't have a provision for a stock pump so I had thought to run an electric pump to the surge and mount everything in the back using the existing feed line and then hook the return to the vapor line and run it back to your surge tank. The Walboro pump is relatively cheap and quiet from what I understand. I would hate to have a holley back there howling away...do you have a different suggestion?



If your talking the return thats on a filter with
a 1/4" nipple.. that has a .060 restriction in it
so you might want to open that up by drilling it out
to close to 3/16"(thats the ID of a 1/4" line/nipple)..
from what Rob is saying you just need a small supply
pump to keep the canister full.. I'm not sure about
his product but I think its more designed to be up
front but I could be wrong.. my way of thinking is
that the supply line couldnt handle the demands
(from the rear of the car to the front)... but I
dont know his item there
EDIT
Never mind... he explained it
Posted By: Benforsp

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/19/15 09:51 PM

Honestly, I don't think it is too bad. I had planned to run larger lines anyway. I had been research about how to modify the fuel tank to support EFI and that seems pretty pricey and still requires new lines etc. If your system eliminates the need to change the tank and all else being equal...it would probably be cheaper then a new tank or a Phantom style system. Maybe I am missing something though
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/19/15 10:03 PM

Quote:

Honestly, I don't think it is too bad. I had planned to run larger lines anyway. I had been research about how to modify the fuel tank to support EFI and that seems pretty pricey and still requires new lines etc. If your system eliminates the need to change the tank and all else being equal...it would probably be cheaper then a new tank or a Phantom style system. Maybe I am missing something though



If you run larger lines to the front then it would
work fine.. that way you can keep the stock tank
and the stock sending unit but would still need a
small supply pump.... but his tank has enough volume
to handle heavy loads for some time period
Posted By: ahy

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/20/15 05:46 AM

Lots of ways to skin the cat. On the back to front lines, sounds like 3/8" supply would work with any of the ideas posted. Another question... why SS? Its pretty but has drawbacks. Its not possible to flare it for custom connections as you will likely need with common tools. $300+ high end tool needed. Even then, seal is iffy as the SS is hard and has problems conforming to the mating fitting. Also on steel vs hose, repop steel lines package very well. Around the rear wheel house, for example, no problem with steel. A challenge with hose.

The OE mild steel lines on my car lasted 40 years. My mild steel replacements should last that long at least on a 3 season car.

No surprise, I suggest 3/8" mild steel supply lines and 5/16" return.
Posted By: FlyFish

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/20/15 02:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I have 1/2" push lock hose on my car from regulator to carb and it works great (1/2" hard line from cell to regulator). It is a bit of a pain to "push" the fittings into the hose, but after the trial and error approach, I found that putting the end of the hose in boiling water for 15-30 seconds then jamming it on the fitting worked best.

My car is on e85 if that helps.



Flyfish,

What brand are you using for push-lock hose? Do they give you any trouble at the track?



I used Russel Twist Loc hose. It is NHRA legal, and no they don't give me any trouble at the track.

http://www.russellperformance.com/mc/hose/twist-lok.shtml
Posted By: mopardude318

Re: Fuel System Upgrade Recommendations - 02/23/15 06:09 PM

i know you guys will probably hate me for this, but i thought for me, this was the simplest solution to solve my fuel delivery issues...I used the Aeromotive phantom 340 in tank pump kit. i will be plumbing 1/2" feed and return lines to my carbureated 408 stroker.



then i bought a new spectra fuel tank and welded in a recess for the lines to clear the trunk floor.









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