Posted By: mopar dave
hughes engines sb stud girdle - 01/31/15 11:03 PM
anyone here have any experience with hughes sb stud girdle? i'm curious to how effective it is.
hughes engines sb stud girdle
Posted By: VernMotor
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 02:13 AM
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 02:27 AM
thanks for that, but i'v already read everything I can find. do you have first hand experience with it?
Posted By: Porter67
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 05:33 AM
Yes I have. This is a topic where some say its worthless, some say it works. I feel the BB version is more functional as it can bolt to the pan rails.
I recently found myself in a position of not being able to get a block done right locally for the center 3 caps being 4 bolted.
So being an early race block of the blue high nickle 2 bolt caps I went with it for two reasons. Harmonics and a bit of modification that would slightly tie the main caps together as well.
Some spotface the caps, some dont as per hughes instructions.
Im sure you read the setup is set for some thermal expansion.
If you want to know more of what I did pm me, as outwardly what I have done "looks" like I simply bolted the girdle to the caps but its far more intricate then it looks.
I used the K1 kit with the 14:1 wiseco slugs. I have alot of time in this setup to see how it would pan out.
Twice it was ran to full temp and put under a load on a test stand then torn down for inspection.
Third time it was on the pump to a power level that many would not push a stock block to.
Post dyno inspection showed all the planning was worth the effort.
Im mopar to the core but stray away from the "It has to be this way" or the "How to books" are looked at like its a mopar bible.
Alot of thought and planning went into my little modifications as I would not risk a new rotating assembly or a race block on a hunch.
Its a tight fit and going by the expansion rates in the install booklet was helpful and gave me a good place to start.
Although built as a spray motor, I feel in its N/A form I wont push it any harder. When I get the time to yank it and get it to the proper shop for the 4 bolt caps, then I will spray it.
Girdles do work, maybe better in a different type of motorsport where you have to think out of the box but im comfortable with what I did.
We spun it to 7400 but in reality the best results are shift points at 6800 but I wanted to really put a load on it.
The top end is very unconventional but equal to or better then a indy top end.
By time I got this done and align honed it was just at the same as I pay to have a block 4 bolted and align bored and honed.
A local shop had the means to align hone but not the rest.
I recently found myself in a position of not being able to get a block done right locally for the center 3 caps being 4 bolted.
So being an early race block of the blue high nickle 2 bolt caps I went with it for two reasons. Harmonics and a bit of modification that would slightly tie the main caps together as well.
Some spotface the caps, some dont as per hughes instructions.
Im sure you read the setup is set for some thermal expansion.
If you want to know more of what I did pm me, as outwardly what I have done "looks" like I simply bolted the girdle to the caps but its far more intricate then it looks.
I used the K1 kit with the 14:1 wiseco slugs. I have alot of time in this setup to see how it would pan out.
Twice it was ran to full temp and put under a load on a test stand then torn down for inspection.
Third time it was on the pump to a power level that many would not push a stock block to.
Post dyno inspection showed all the planning was worth the effort.
Im mopar to the core but stray away from the "It has to be this way" or the "How to books" are looked at like its a mopar bible.
Alot of thought and planning went into my little modifications as I would not risk a new rotating assembly or a race block on a hunch.
Its a tight fit and going by the expansion rates in the install booklet was helpful and gave me a good place to start.
Although built as a spray motor, I feel in its N/A form I wont push it any harder. When I get the time to yank it and get it to the proper shop for the 4 bolt caps, then I will spray it.
Girdles do work, maybe better in a different type of motorsport where you have to think out of the box but im comfortable with what I did.
We spun it to 7400 but in reality the best results are shift points at 6800 but I wanted to really put a load on it.
The top end is very unconventional but equal to or better then a indy top end.
By time I got this done and align honed it was just at the same as I pay to have a block 4 bolted and align bored and honed.
A local shop had the means to align hone but not the rest.
Posted By: Wedgeman
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 06:28 AM
I put one in my 408......
What do you want to know ?
Is it worth the cost ? In my mind yes....
Dan
What do you want to know ?
Is it worth the cost ? In my mind yes....
Dan
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 07:03 AM
yes, is it worth the cost and did you machine the caps .060" as directions suggest?
Posted By: Wedgeman
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 02:42 PM
Dave,
I feel thhat if the bottoom is tied together, stress to the crank and caps every time a cylinder fires is shared by the others, making it stronger overall, especially if there is Nitrous in the equation.....
Then again I may be wrong...............
As for installion and milling, I don't know, I left that to my machinist.
Dan
'67 Barracuda
best 60ft 1.30 sec 6.40sec 1/8 mile
pump gas, 10.8 cr
Indy heads
I feel thhat if the bottoom is tied together, stress to the crank and caps every time a cylinder fires is shared by the others, making it stronger overall, especially if there is Nitrous in the equation.....
Then again I may be wrong...............
As for installion and milling, I don't know, I left that to my machinist.
Dan
'67 Barracuda
best 60ft 1.30 sec 6.40sec 1/8 mile
pump gas, 10.8 cr
Indy heads
Posted By: Adobedude
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 03:22 PM
Ryan Johnson said they are pretty much worthless in a SB
Posted By: Wedgeman
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 03:52 PM
I don't want to state who is right or wrong....
I just used my good sens to build a bullet proof bottom for 7000rpm engine and not worry....
The small block get a lot of twisting above 600hp,
and 7k, so I put every thing to keep it together....If they use it in big block, high rpm, it should as good in a lighter small block stroker....see my point ?
Too bad there are no tests or more infos on the matter......just experience
Dan
I just used my good sens to build a bullet proof bottom for 7000rpm engine and not worry....
The small block get a lot of twisting above 600hp,
and 7k, so I put every thing to keep it together....If they use it in big block, high rpm, it should as good in a lighter small block stroker....see my point ?
Too bad there are no tests or more infos on the matter......just experience
Dan
Posted By: Crizila
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 04:25 PM
Quote:After reading their instruction manual, I decided to go another way. Just didn't look that efficient to me as far as tying things together and the shim thing seemed - weak. I'm having good luck with my set up so far on a stock 360 block. Been well over 7K on multiple occasions with a blown motor. Many have said not enough meat in the web area to go 4 bolt caps, but so far so good - and no screwing around with shims, etc.
anyone here have any experience with hughes sb stud girdle? i'm curious to how effective it is.
Posted By: knyech1
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 05:00 PM
Quote:
anyone here have any experience with hughes sb stud girdle? i'm curious to how effective it is.
From what I recall, Dizuster did not have a girdle when he first threw a turbo on his 360. When he opened it up he discovered that he was having main cap walk. He put a girdle in it and is not having any problems, and I think he's at higher boost levels now that he was running before.
Posted By: Wedgeman
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 05:07 PM
That is why I put one in my block....It all depends on the abuse you plan to put your engine to..........
Dan
Dan
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 05:09 PM
Quote:Quote:
anyone here have any experience with hughes sb stud girdle? i'm curious to how effective it is.
From what I recall, Dizuster did not have a girdle when he first threw a turbo on his 360. When he opened it up he discovered that he was having main cap walk. He put a girdle in it and is not having any problems, and I think he's at higher boost levels now that he was running before.
But also Scott was running some higher timing that
sure didnt help cap walk.... myself... I dont use
the girdles but I also try to build light weight
rotating systems so it basically eliminates the problem
from the source... I turn even my stock blocks in
the 7800 rpm range and a lot of 8200... my R3 block
I took it to 9600 a few times
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 06:17 PM
the way I look at it, its not as effective as the big block girdle, but better than nothing. my 360 is short filled and with a girdle should be good enough for n/a 13-14:1 and 7000 shifts. 
Posted By: Wedgeman
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 06:32 PM
You bet !!
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 10:12 PM
what kind of compression you runnin with that combo?
Posted By: TrWaters
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 10:42 PM
For what its worth. I sell both a 9 point and a 10 point girdle for early hemis. The bottom end is almost identical to a small block. Here is a write up when one was install on the early hemi EMC engine.
Tom Waters Girdle
by dan miller » 13 Nov 2009 10:17
We were having trouble with the front main cap moving around on our 354 EMC early hemi. The engine is partially filled, cyro treated, and has 4 bolt splayed main caps on the center three mains.
We had no issues up to about 550 horsepower. We noticed metal transfer on the front main cap at around 575 horsepower, and it started to become an issue at 600 horsepower. We installed a Tom Waters girdle and made 121 pulls, many over 650 horsepower. Upon tear down, we observed that the front main is now solid. Zero movement/issues.
We also installed one of Tom's girdles on our Junior Fueler, about 850 or so horsepower. At these power levels, main cap movement is a fact of life, and one just has to live with it. We only have about ten passes on it (and haven't torn it down yet), so it's probably too early to tell, but I'll advise when we see something. It might not cure things, but I'm betting that it will be of significant help.
A very nice product. Inexpensive, very high quality, came with all parts necessary, installed easily - a true bolt on. I highly recommend it.
Danny
UPDATE
We run the JrFueler @ approaching 900 hp, and have zero issues. The mains walk around a little, but much less with the girdle. We have about 40 passes on a new block, and there is main cap movement, but significantly less than without the girdle.
Tom Waters Girdle
by dan miller » 13 Nov 2009 10:17
We were having trouble with the front main cap moving around on our 354 EMC early hemi. The engine is partially filled, cyro treated, and has 4 bolt splayed main caps on the center three mains.
We had no issues up to about 550 horsepower. We noticed metal transfer on the front main cap at around 575 horsepower, and it started to become an issue at 600 horsepower. We installed a Tom Waters girdle and made 121 pulls, many over 650 horsepower. Upon tear down, we observed that the front main is now solid. Zero movement/issues.
We also installed one of Tom's girdles on our Junior Fueler, about 850 or so horsepower. At these power levels, main cap movement is a fact of life, and one just has to live with it. We only have about ten passes on it (and haven't torn it down yet), so it's probably too early to tell, but I'll advise when we see something. It might not cure things, but I'm betting that it will be of significant help.
A very nice product. Inexpensive, very high quality, came with all parts necessary, installed easily - a true bolt on. I highly recommend it.
Danny
UPDATE
We run the JrFueler @ approaching 900 hp, and have zero issues. The mains walk around a little, but much less with the girdle. We have about 40 passes on a new block, and there is main cap movement, but significantly less than without the girdle.
Posted By: Wedgeman
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 11:04 PM
I'm running 10.8:1..........
Posted By: dizuster
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/01/15 11:43 PM
To clarify mine had a minimal amount of cap walk on a few cylinders, and never really any signs of detonation on the plugs/pistons. However it DID have a lot of cylinder pressure that collapsed the piston.
But what was most alarming is the odd bearing wear that was obviously caused by the cap moving/crank bending. It was warn down to the "gold" in the bearing on the inner edge, opposite of each cylinder. Meaning that at/near TDC the rod had so much compression on it, it was actually pulling the caps off center, and literally "tilting" them on the compression stroke.
I haven't had the pan back off the car yet after the re-fresh, so I can't say how effective it was. But I will be VERY surprised if tying everything together didn't help the caps from waving in the wind, like they were doing the last time.
I'm running a bit less boost then I did before (16psi vs. 20psi before), but with more power (better heads/cam, makes about 80~100hp more), so I am certain it isn't any easier on the motor now then it was then.
But what was most alarming is the odd bearing wear that was obviously caused by the cap moving/crank bending. It was warn down to the "gold" in the bearing on the inner edge, opposite of each cylinder. Meaning that at/near TDC the rod had so much compression on it, it was actually pulling the caps off center, and literally "tilting" them on the compression stroke.
I haven't had the pan back off the car yet after the re-fresh, so I can't say how effective it was. But I will be VERY surprised if tying everything together didn't help the caps from waving in the wind, like they were doing the last time.
I'm running a bit less boost then I did before (16psi vs. 20psi before), but with more power (better heads/cam, makes about 80~100hp more), so I am certain it isn't any easier on the motor now then it was then.
Posted By: humpty
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/02/15 01:17 AM
*** SOLD *** I've got one for sale that's never been bolted on I'll sell for $175.00. PM me if you're interested.
Posted By: HotRodDave
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/02/15 02:27 AM
I would not run the 4 bolt mains unless it was a magnum block and the bolts were wider so they could get into the extra meat in the pan rails.
I think the girdle could help keep the mains from deflecting to the front and back of the block, it is not going to do much up/down motion.
I think the girdle could help keep the mains from deflecting to the front and back of the block, it is not going to do much up/down motion.
Posted By: jcc
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/02/15 02:47 AM
You mention "harmonics", first time I've that issue addressed with a girdle. I don't know that it could not address that issue, but suspect it's more by accident then design. All my reasoning would have me agreeing Ryan. If I was asked to design a way to connect all the cap studs together with as much flexibility as possible, with 1/4" plate, this is the design I would use. If however connecting just the two studs together on each cap with 1/4" was the goal, it probably does a decent job, if that is the crux of the problem. However back to the first point here, harmonics can be solved many ways, but only best thru a lot of controlled expensive testing when using a design as complex as a SB running across a broad rpm range. And if that is the case, the OEM's likely just fix the original problem rather then band aid it.
I say we have a classic case of:
"In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias) is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors."
I say we have a classic case of:
"In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias) is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors."
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/02/15 03:18 AM
Quote:
I would not run the 4 bolt mains unless it was a magnum block and the bolts were wider so they could get into the extra meat in the pan rails.
I think the girdle could help keep the mains from deflecting to the front and back of the block, it is not going to do much up/down motion.
I have 1 block(stock) with 4 bolt mains.. been a very
strong block for years.. it started out in the roundy
round stuff then I bought it
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/02/15 05:32 AM
if that fits a 360 block i'm very interested.
Posted By: slammedR/T
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/02/15 07:33 AM
I have had one since they first came out whne I first built my 408 stroker from my factory magnum block. Stock main caps and 8rpm with ZERO signs of cap walk and my main bearings are always perfect looking on disassemble. I don't suggest doing 4-bolt splayed caps in a magnum block because if you look at the main webbing it doesn't have alot of meat there as it is. You got doing 4-bolt caps and you are just removing more meat from the webbings. Then you are adding the stress into the webbing area that is alredy the weak point of the block. I machined my main caps to sit the girdle down on them tight and the girdle also acts as a crank scraper. I have been spraying the piss out my 408 for shoot 8 years now, same crank,rods,pistons just new top end and rings/bearings. Never had to turn the crank once and I first built this motor back in 2004.
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/02/15 06:11 PM
a lot of good results with the hughes girdle. i'm convinced. i'll get one.
Posted By: dartman366
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/02/15 07:06 PM
put one in my 408 about 5 years ago to address a cap walk issue,,did it help? don't know haven't had it out of the car in 5 years. 
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/02/15 08:12 PM
i'v been 8 yrs without one. time for a rebuild/reprogram with one. thanks for all your info guys. next combo should be a stout one.
Posted By: mshred
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/02/15 09:20 PM
I always felt that the design of a girdle on an SB wouldn't do much since it can't tie in the same way a BB one does...but after reading this thread and seeing how it has helped or prevented cap walk in a few applications, it has got me thinking.
I have stock 2 bolt caps, stock bolts and a half fill in my block. I shift my 408 at 6700 and cross the traps at 7k on spray..wonder if this would be a good idea for the motor when I eventually tear it down for a refresh (hopefully still in one piece when I do).
I have stock 2 bolt caps, stock bolts and a half fill in my block. I shift my 408 at 6700 and cross the traps at 7k on spray..wonder if this would be a good idea for the motor when I eventually tear it down for a refresh (hopefully still in one piece when I do).
Posted By: dizuster
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/02/15 11:30 PM
I think there is some misconception out there on how the girdle works, and what it's engineered purpose is.
The girdles intended purpose has NOTHING to do with resisting forces in the vertical direction. As correctly mentioned the 1/4" or 5/16" thickness will easily bend from the attachment points (same goes for a big block to a lesser degree).
What it is intended to do, is to prevent the caps from moving fore/aft in the block. As the crank is pushed down against the caps, they want to "splay" forward and rearward because of the bending forces from the crank. The girdle ties the caps together in a fore/aft manner preventing this from happening. This helps prevent that bending force from being transferred up the main webs and into the bulkheads also... meaning the benefits are not limited only to the cap/block interface joint.
The splayed caps only help the block/cap interface joint by increasing clamping, but do not prevent the bending forces from getting up/through the bulkhead in the block.
If you mill the tops of the cap down, and shim accordingly, it can also slightly increase the cap strength by "strapping" across the top of the cap.
Now there is a lot to debate here because all of these blocks were built long before FEA and computer modeling to review stresses, but in my opinion the proof is in the pudding with guys visually seeing differences in their teardown inspections after adding them.
The girdles intended purpose has NOTHING to do with resisting forces in the vertical direction. As correctly mentioned the 1/4" or 5/16" thickness will easily bend from the attachment points (same goes for a big block to a lesser degree).
What it is intended to do, is to prevent the caps from moving fore/aft in the block. As the crank is pushed down against the caps, they want to "splay" forward and rearward because of the bending forces from the crank. The girdle ties the caps together in a fore/aft manner preventing this from happening. This helps prevent that bending force from being transferred up the main webs and into the bulkheads also... meaning the benefits are not limited only to the cap/block interface joint.
The splayed caps only help the block/cap interface joint by increasing clamping, but do not prevent the bending forces from getting up/through the bulkhead in the block.
If you mill the tops of the cap down, and shim accordingly, it can also slightly increase the cap strength by "strapping" across the top of the cap.
Now there is a lot to debate here because all of these blocks were built long before FEA and computer modeling to review stresses, but in my opinion the proof is in the pudding with guys visually seeing differences in their teardown inspections after adding them.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/03/15 04:26 AM
Quote:Interesting - Concept. I've been through one teardown since going with my 4 bolt splayed caps and haven't visually seen any problems? Actually used the main bearings over again. Then again, I'm not running a rubber crankshaft.
I think there is some misconception out there on how the girdle works, and what it's engineered purpose is.
The girdles intended purpose has NOTHING to do with resisting forces in the vertical direction. As correctly mentioned the 1/4" or 5/16" thickness will easily bend from the attachment points (same goes for a big block to a lesser degree).
What it is intended to do, is to prevent the caps from moving fore/aft in the block. As the crank is pushed down against the caps, they want to "splay" forward and rearward because of the bending forces from the crank. The girdle ties the caps together in a fore/aft manner preventing this from happening. This helps prevent that bending force from being transferred up the main webs and into the bulkheads also... meaning the benefits are not limited only to the cap/block interface joint.
The splayed caps only help the block/cap interface joint by increasing clamping, but do not prevent the bending forces from getting up/through the bulkhead in the block.
If you mill the tops of the cap down, and shim accordingly, it can also slightly increase the cap strength by "strapping" across the top of the cap.
Now there is a lot to debate here because all of these blocks were built long before FEA and computer modeling to review stresses, but in my opinion the proof is in the pudding with guys visually seeing differences in their teardown inspections after adding them.
Posted By: slammedR/T
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/03/15 10:25 AM
Quote:Quote:Interesting - Concept. I've been through one teardown since going with my 4 bolt splayed caps and haven't visually seen any problems? Actually used the main bearings over again. Then again, I'm not running a rubber crankshaft.
I think there is some misconception out there on how the girdle works, and what it's engineered purpose is.
The girdles intended purpose has NOTHING to do with resisting forces in the vertical direction. As correctly mentioned the 1/4" or 5/16" thickness will easily bend from the attachment points (same goes for a big block to a lesser degree).
What it is intended to do, is to prevent the caps from moving fore/aft in the block. As the crank is pushed down against the caps, they want to "splay" forward and rearward because of the bending forces from the crank. The girdle ties the caps together in a fore/aft manner preventing this from happening. This helps prevent that bending force from being transferred up the main webs and into the bulkheads also... meaning the benefits are not limited only to the cap/block interface joint.
The splayed caps only help the block/cap interface joint by increasing clamping, but do not prevent the bending forces from getting up/through the bulkhead in the block.
If you mill the tops of the cap down, and shim accordingly, it can also slightly increase the cap strength by "strapping" across the top of the cap.
Now there is a lot to debate here because all of these blocks were built long before FEA and computer modeling to review stresses, but in my opinion the proof is in the pudding with guys visually seeing differences in their teardown inspections after adding them.
same for me, I have only put three sets of main bearings in this motor since I built in 2004. First set were clevites and i didn't care for them, second set were King's that i like and after using them twice I bought another set. I'm still running on them today(third re-use) I will prolly change these next time I crack the seal just cause I don't wanna re-use them more than three times.
Posted By: dizuster
Re: hughes engines sb stud girdle - 02/03/15 11:54 PM
Quote:
Interesting - Concept. I've been through one teardown since going with my 4 bolt splayed caps and haven't visually seen any problems? Actually used the main bearings over again. Then again, I'm not running a rubber crankshaft.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying the 4-bolt caps don't work, or aren't an improvement. I'm just saying that they are doing a different thing then the girdle does.
The 4-bolt cap certainly does a good job keeping the cap clamped to the block which is a good thing. It also helps distribute the load across a wider section of the bulkhead which is also good. In a way it helps tie more of the main bulkhead back to the pan rail through mechanical fastening.