Moparts

"Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.?

Posted By: BradH

"Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/14/15 06:24 PM

I'm looking seriously into a flowbench upgrade, like something that can pull 450+ cfm @ a real 28" H2O test pressure, instead of relying on major correction factors like I have to use w/ my current bench.

So, that got me wondering about other people are into this type of car stuff as a hobby who also have set themselves up w/ what would otherswise be considered "overkill" professional-level equipment, tools, etc.

Anybody else want to jump in to help me rationalize this more easily?
Posted By: Crizila

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/14/15 06:41 PM

I have no problem rationalizing it - selling the wife is another story. She walks around the garage now and sez, "when's the last time you used that?" Using a correction factor can still be pretty accurate.
Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/14/15 06:48 PM

the only pro level anything to be used as a hobbiest I would even consider is the size of the garage. My garage is 2000sq ft and its not enough.
Posted By: cudadoug

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/14/15 07:42 PM

To me, the rationalization is easy: If you want it, and CAN AFFORD it...get it!
Posted By: quickd100

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/14/15 07:57 PM

I've got my Land&Sea dyno, it was easy, 'I wanted it, I needed it, and I deserved it!' If you want something bad enough you'll always find a way to get it and justify it.Dave
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/14/15 07:57 PM

I just have a few machines that are above the normal..
a mill and a lathe... hand tools.. and the bore gauge
and 0-6" mic set.. and of course my welders and I
have a 4' sand blaster, sheet metal break and roller,
bead roller... I've sold off all my chassis bending
tools like the hyd bender and I sold my old flow bench..
thats about all the big stuff.... and there is always
the space issue.... LACK OF IT
EDIT
I've had this BIG desire to buy a engine dyno the
last couple of years... that might be next if I can
figure out the space
Posted By: RMCHRGR

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/14/15 08:10 PM

Can you rationalize anything in this hobby?

Tools are probably one of the only things you can rationalize since they are in fact needed to perform certain tasks. If you don't have what you need, you're paying someone else to do whatever it is you need done.

How often do you need heads flowed? Can you justify the initial investment over paying someone else to do it however many times?

You could eventually make some money back and do it as a service for others if you were inclined.

When I was a tech, I had to rationalize most everything I bought from the tool trucks. This was especially true if I only used something a handful of times or just wanted the latest and greatest mousetrap. But, if I could open my tool box and get what I needed without having to borrow it, that was reason enough, .
Posted By: BradH

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/14/15 08:23 PM

Quote:

You can rationalize anything in this hobby!


Fixed it for ya'.
Posted By: quickd100

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/14/15 08:26 PM

Quote:

I just have a few machines that are above the normal..
a mill and a lathe... hand tools.. and the bore gauge
and 0-6" mic set.. and of course my welders and I
have a 4' sand blaster, sheet metal break and roller,
bead roller... I've sold off all my chassis bending
tools like the hyd bender and I sold my old flow bench..
thats about all the big stuff.... and there is always
the space issue.... LACK OF IT
EDIT
I've had this BIG desire to buy a engine dyno the
last couple of years... that might be next if I can
figure out the space




Space is my big issue, I need to put up a new shop of my own. Mike once you get a dyno you'll wonder why you didn't 40 years ago. You'll also lay awake at nite dreaming up crazy stuff to try on it.Dave
Posted By: CMcAllister

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/14/15 08:27 PM

Some people write the check, drive away in the car and are satisfied.

For others, having the knowledge and ability to envision, design, fabricate, and put all the pieces needed together is the object of the exercise.

Nothing brightens up a shop like a new piece of equipment.
Posted By: BradH

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/14/15 08:48 PM

Quote:

Nothing brightens up a shop like a new piece of equipment.


Too bad the pic below doesn't show the associated laptop w/ the digital readouts...

Posted By: BradH

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/14/15 08:54 PM

... like this:

Attached picture 8396202-PTSFlowSoftUI.jpg
Posted By: RMCHRGR

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/14/15 09:07 PM

I know you said 'professional level' but have you looked into building one yourself?

I don't know what you have now, is it something like this?

http://performancetrends.com/ez_flow_system.htm
Posted By: RT540

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/14/15 09:08 PM

I wanted my own flow bench 15 years ago, and as I work with industrial ventilation, I made my own bench.
Started with a single inlet fan and a 11w motor, then with a belt drive made the fan spinn 5100rpm. Sounded like a smal jet motor.
But I had to move out from that garage in 2002, and both the fan and the bench have been in a storage since.
Designed to flow any intake port at 28".
I had a 3m straight pipe with an orifice in the middle to get a good laminar flow between the fan and the bench.
Not very sophisticated and very basic.
Found a pict. of the bench behind the Coronet.

Attached picture 8396216-flowbench.jpg
Posted By: BradH

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/14/15 09:23 PM

Quote:

I know you said 'professional level' but have you looked into building one yourself?

I don't know what you have now, is it something like this?

http://performancetrends.com/ez_flow_system.htm


A PTS flowbench is actually a build-it-yourself bench (see flowbenchtech.com for more info).

What I have now is a SuperFlow SF-110:
Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/14/15 11:36 PM

Every tool i have now is the result of not having to beg, borrow or steal from someone else. Its was always "I'll get to it next week maybe" or X number of dollars and would they do it right. Don't skimp on quality tools, human error is enough the tool doesn't need to add too, they are an investment. After almost 50 years of owning a cabinet shop you can never have enough tools.I have 4200 ft for my work and 3300 for the cars and can hardly move around in either, you can NEVER have too big a building.
Posted By: Stanton

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 12:56 AM

I weigh the amount of use I'll get out of something and budget accordingly. Buying "used" can save you a bundle. I see a lot of guys with huge loaded tool chests and they don't do any more with their stuff than I do with much less. Maybe they can get at a nut or bolt a little easier but the end result is the same. Big expenditures need a return on the investment - my welders and metal working equipment make me money so they're easily justified. Sometimes I just treat myself. A hoist would be a "treat"!
Posted By: sr4440

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 01:50 AM

Quote:

I just have a few machines that are above the normal..
a mill and a lathe... hand tools.. and the bore gauge
and 0-6" mic set.. and of course my welders and I
have a 4' sand blaster, sheet metal break and roller,
bead roller... I've sold off all my chassis bending
tools like the hyd bender and I sold my old flow bench..
thats about all the big stuff.... and there is always
the space issue.... LACK OF IT
EDIT
I've had this BIG desire to buy a engine dyno the
last couple of years... that might be next if I can
figure out the space




I bought my dyno after realizing that no one around here had one or they would not dyno Mopars. I bought a top of the line Superflow. I will never be able to make the money back that i have in it, one reason, like Dave said i keep adding "stuff" to get more information. it adds up quick, Blowby sensor 2k, 8 O2 sensors 3k, getting BSFC number for mechanical fuel injection (worth it's weight in gold)$1500. here's a cheap deal to check on different ign boxes magnetic hysteresis.


My next purchase will be a in cylinder pressure tester in order to know when peak cylinder pressure occurs.


Joe

Attached picture 8396489-IMG_6970.JPG
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 02:12 AM

Quote:

I weigh the amount of use I'll get out of something and budget accordingly. Buying "used" can save you a bundle. I see a lot of guys with huge loaded tool chests and they don't do any more with their stuff than I do with much less. Maybe they can get at a nut or bolt a little easier but the end result is the same. Big expenditures need a return on the investment - my welders and metal working equipment make me money so they're easily justified. Sometimes I just treat myself. A hoist would be a "treat"!



I have a hoist now but I'm looking at a new one..
the new one goes up 8" higher.. that way I can walk
or drive under it... I bang my head on this one
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 02:40 AM

I went digital for a number of reasons
I can flow a port in a matter of minutes. It instantly is saved in a file and can be set up in graphs or comparison reports to show gains and losses
Not only that, but I have seen guys make mistakes on manual benches when using the weather correction and conversion charts
Keith

Attached picture 8396536-NCM_0531.JPG
Posted By: Uberpube

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 03:21 AM

Quote:

I'm looking seriously into a flowbench upgrade, like something that can pull 450+ cfm @ a real 28" H2O test pressure, instead of relying on major correction factors like I have to use w/ my current bench.

So, that got me wondering about other people are into this type of car stuff as a hobby who also have set themselves up w/ what would otherswise be considered "overkill" professional-level equipment, tools, etc.

Anybody else want to jump in to help me rationalize this more easily?


What forced my hand to buy tools, was that locally, I really didn't trust the shops that had the tools, they just didn't seem to have the ability to do things to the level that I would have expected of a "pro" shop. Also, when you have to rely on others, it does put you onto their time schedule, work ethic etc. I have the ability to do things, so it just makes it easier to do things myself. Plus I have direct control over the quality of the work if I do it myself.
I started into the car hobby originally with a sawzall, 5hp compressor and a oxyacetylene set. When I realized I could do the work, but was tool limited , it kind of exploded, as one tool either compliments or requires another to take the work to the next step. And then it goes into " why should I take this here and wait 6 weeks, when I could buy this tool to finish what I already started with my other tools."Or the service you require is more than what the tools end costing.
What really blew it wide open was a quote for 3000.00 to do the required stainless and aluminum welding on my first turbo car. I bought a new Miller synchrowave 180 for 2800 instead. Then I spent some time at some car shops in Japan to learn the finer points of tuning, and I discovered the usefulness of real machine tools in automotive applications. Lathes and what not before were just for machine shops, after seeing what could be built I was hooked and it just sort of pushed me to learn more, and of course buy more. I am pretty much self sufficient for most things now, and I really wouldn't have it any other way.
A partial run down of collection
Dynojet 224xlc loading chassis dyno
marquette scope and engine analyzer
Vertical Bandsaw
Horizontol Bandsaw
Chin Hung 430x1100 Lathe
National 12x36 Lathe
Vertical Knee mill
14000 lb 4 post hoist
6000 lb scissor hoist
Miller 350p Mig
Hypertherm plasma cutter
Dynasty 200 tig
5 ton press

Hand tools and diagnostic stuff out the ying yang..but you get the idea.
The problem is my new shop I built 2 years ago, is already to small.
I've been thinking about a flow bench to for a while.
Posted By: quickd100

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 03:27 AM

If I can build or fabricate it I do. Some things you just have to bite the bullet and buy. I've got a 16" swing x 48" lathe, and vertical mill, gas, arc, mig, and tig welders, a press break, and a hoist. The dyno was the best thing I've ever bought. I learned more with it in 1 month than 30 years of backyard and dragstrip testing.Dave
Posted By: Uberpube

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 03:36 AM

Quote:

If I can build or fabricate it I do. Some things you just have to bite the bullet and buy. I've got a 16" swing x 48" lathe, and vertical mill, gas, arc, mig, and tig welders, a press break, and a hoist. The dyno was the best thing I've ever bought. I learned more with it in 1 month than 30 years of backyard and dragstrip testing.Dave


True... It's fun to test products from major aftermarket vendors on the dyno, and find out they are kind of full of [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] to.
I think so many people blow up on the dyno, because the clock ticking away means money paid to someone else to, so they rush through things and make mistakes.. Its really nice to just set it up, and chew away at it and a leisurely pace and make solid safe gains in power.
Posted By: quickd100

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 04:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

If I can build or fabricate it I do. Some things you just have to bite the bullet and buy. I've got a 16" swing x 48" lathe, and vertical mill, gas, arc, mig, and tig welders, a press break, and a hoist. The dyno was the best thing I've ever bought. I learned more with it in 1 month than 30 years of backyard and dragstrip testing.Dave


True... It's fun to test products from major aftermarket vendors on the dyno, and find out they are kind of full of [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] to.
I think so many people blow up on the dyno, because the clock ticking away means money paid to someone else to, so they rush through things and make mistakes.. Its really nice to just set it up, and chew away at it and a leisurely pace and make solid safe gains in power.


So right you are! The big problem is knowing when to say enough. I made 36 pulls on the 605, 18 just fine tuning the carbs. You can wear a motor out testing all the hairbrain crap you think up laying in bed at nite. Dave
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 05:01 AM

Yes and yes, but not to the degree that some of you have climbed to. There is a fellow locally that has a dyno because all of the other dyno operators are too flaky and that seems to be a common theme.

This is insignificant in comparison bet I just bought a new set of Spellmaco transfer punches ($$$). I could have bought four sets of Chinese punches and still had change. I just couldn't do it!

We need to do some work to our new to us home's driveway. I bought a D600 and am looking for a Case 580 or Cat 420 backhoe. After calling a few places and waving my (cash) money around to no avail the decision was easy. Own another mopar lol.


My day jobs permits and prohibits ever hobby I have and that is a good thing around here.
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 05:10 AM

The flaky dyno guys in your area
must be related to the guys around here.
I initially bought mine for the same reason. I looked at a customers dyno sheet for his small block stroker street car
Two pulls with no changes from 4,000 to 6,000 RPM. 400 dollars and not a thing to help him
Keith
Posted By: RapidusMaximus

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 05:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

If I can build or fabricate it I do. Some things you just have to bite the bullet and buy. I've got a 16" swing x 48" lathe, and vertical mill, gas, arc, mig, and tig welders, a press break, and a hoist. The dyno was the best thing I've ever bought. I learned more with it in 1 month than 30 years of backyard and dragstrip testing.Dave


True... It's fun to test products from major aftermarket vendors on the dyno, and find out they are kind of full of [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] to.
I think so many people blow up on the dyno, because the clock ticking away means money paid to someone else to, so they rush through things and make mistakes.. Its really nice to just set it up, and chew away at it and a leisurely pace and make solid safe gains in power.


So right you are! The big problem is knowing when to say enough. I made 36 pulls on the 605, 18 just fine tuning the carbs. You can wear a motor out testing all the hairbrain crap you think up laying in bed at nite. Dave


That's funny stuff right there...and probably soooo very true, I'd probably be the same way...now if I could just afford one...wait...isn't that what started this thread
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 05:32 PM

I think that some have the engine built(or build it
themself) and then use the dyno as a break-in tool..
some guys(for what ever reason) will get just a warm
up and a couple of pulls. maybe it was the money or
a time frame(I dont know)..I was paying $400 per day
of dyno time(this included dropping the engine the
day before so it could be mounted up)... I could do
anything I wanted during that time period from tuning
to idling... I did get a break one day when I only
ran a couple of hours and had to come off the dyno
and they charged me $200... but I did go back a week
later to run again... I did end up with about 4 days
on the dyno(at different times) with that engine
Posted By: VincentVega

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 06:09 PM

We're set up like that here. small garage. 4 milling machines, 6" belt sander, a couple of valve grinders, seat grinders, coats 40/40A tire changer, probably about 100 grand worth of miller tools at today's prices. max wedge stuff, big horizontal bandsaw, a couple of sheet metal brakes including a very nice 48" box and pan brake that does up to 16ga, a bear 4 wheel alignment machine, 6" Atlas lathe, electroplating stuff, hydraulic exhaust bender, welders, a used but uninstalled 2 post lift (lol), one-end air lift, all kinds of air tools including head porting stuff, planishing hammer, english wheel, mig/tig/oxy-acet welders, hitman alignment setup, rotary milling table, large granite surface plate. disk/drum brake lathes. it goes on and on. My dad was a pack rat for this stuff and when you consider the fact we are middle class, these procurements are insane. and took 50 years. The only problem was never enough space to have it out and in use all the time.

We also have a van norman rotary broach! lol! that thing is huge


I think this is what they call penny-wise dollar foolish
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 06:23 PM

Quote:

The flaky dyno guys in your area
must be related to the guys around here.
I initially bought mine for the same reason. I looked at a customers dyno sheet for his small block stroker street car
Two pulls with no changes from 4,000 to 6,000 RPM. 400 dollars and not a thing to help him
Keith



Exactly. Nobody wants to have any problems on the dyno and seem to have this "get you in, get you out" mentality when in reality you are there to get a baseline tune, check for leaks and save the aggravation of having to pull a fresh engine. Then there is the lack of carb tuning parts, disarray of greasy tools and parts, etc. IMO the first thing a machinist/engine builder/dyno operator should learn is how to respect the customer's investment. I applaud the guys with shops that actually respect the customer's project regardless is it's a stock resto 440 or a B1 headed 572. Sorry for the OT rant but that hit a chord lol.
Posted By: 19swinger70

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 06:24 PM

I have a mix of pro-level and non pro equipment in my shop. For me, having a nice, commercial / pro level shop is part of the hobby itself. As I get less and less time to actually work out there - it is nice to have good tools and equipment for the valuable time I am out there working. At least some of this "excess" could be sold if needed.
Posted By: Stanton

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 07:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The flaky dyno guys in your area
must be related to the guys around here.
I initially bought mine for the same reason. I looked at a customers dyno sheet for his small block stroker street car
Two pulls with no changes from 4,000 to 6,000 RPM. 400 dollars and not a thing to help him
Keith



Exactly. Nobody wants to have any problems on the dyno and seem to have this "get you in, get you out" mentality when in reality you are there to get a baseline tune, check for leaks and save the aggravation of having to pull a fresh engine. Then there is the lack of carb tuning parts, disarray of greasy tools and parts, etc. IMO the first thing a machinist/engine builder/dyno operator should learn is how to respect the customer's investment. I applaud the guys with shops that actually respect the customer's project regardless is it's a stock resto 440 or a B1 headed 572. Sorry for the OT rant but that hit a chord lol.



I've never dyno'd a motor but it seems logical to me that its your responsibility to show up with the stuff you want to test, If you show up with just your motor then what's the point of more than two pulls ? And maybe that motor was "sold" and the seller was just supplying a dyno sheet to satisfy the customer. In this case I think its unfair to cast judgement based on this single incident. "Street car" guys don't usually have a trunk full of intakes, carbs and cams !!
Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 08:24 PM

"Running" a motor on a dyno and "tuning" a motor on the dyno is two entirely different things and around here, you pay and choose which dyno accordingly. I have one place I go and he is strictly a dyno "operator". You want it tuned, YOU tune it. There is another local guy, that rings it out and changes anything you want changed. Their rates reflect their amount of involvement. $400 seems to be about the standard rate just to throw something on there and make sure it runs. The dyno "tuning" around here is $600 minimum

Monte
Posted By: aspenrt360

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 08:57 PM

have a couple of things the average joe does not, I consider the m tune up tools. they are not pretty but they work.

Attached picture 8397358-DSC04626.JPG
Posted By: aspenrt360

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 08:58 PM

and another.

Attached picture 8397360-DSC04627.JPG
Posted By: aspenrt360

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 09:00 PM

there is more in the other building but I don't have any pics of that stuff.

Attached picture 8397364-DSC04628.JPG
Posted By: BradH

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/15/15 09:25 PM

Quote:

"Street car" guys don't usually have a trunk full of intakes, carbs and cams !!


Hey, I'm a "street car" guy and when I've gone to the dyno (three different times) I've definitely been there w/ different carbs & intakes - even three different cams one time - to test.

Never mind; I'm the guy that started this thread...
Posted By: Hemi_Joel

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/16/15 12:40 AM

It's amazing what guys have for hobby tools now. One of my buddies has an engine dyno , 3 cnc mills, lathe, powder coating equipt and a huge oven to bake it, vacuum forming machine for plastic, full size paint booth, plasma cutter, tig, etc..
Another buddy has a brake, shrinker/stretcher, roll former, tubing bender, tig set up.
I've got a Bridgeport, engine lathe, horizontal/verticle bandsaw, tig, mig, stick, oxy acetalyene welders, valve seat grinder, valve grinder, valve guide knurler/reamers, electric ring filer, tire machine, electronic tire balancer, 20 ton press, 3/8 drive socket set, vicegrip... hard to find time to use it all.
Posted By: VincentVega

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/16/15 01:06 AM

CNC is amazing if you also have the computer, software, and knowledge to apply it.

I had some CNC parts made for me based on a drawing I did on a program called Google Sketchup. I was able to export that drawing, one friend converted it from that format to AutoCad, and then a second friend (out of the goodness of his heart) made me twin pieces and shipped to me for free! His only bill was the promise to pay it forward. This is one of the reason I always try my best to help people diagnose their issues on here.

in fact, it looks just like this


and here is one of them finished and on a measuring machine (another thrown-in bonus for fun and smiles)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCT5YjdfL0I&feature=youtu.be

mild steel, nNominal thickness is 1/8 (.125)

the key to this thing is that the wedge portion is a compound angle. it tapers in both the X and Y direction. Be hard to make by hand, but certainly doable. CNC just makes it fun
Posted By: Stanton

Re: "Hobbyists" w/ pro-level tools, equipment, etc.? - 01/16/15 01:25 AM

Quite possibly the most boring video I've ever watched !!
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