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Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference
Posted By: pittsburghracer
Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/12/15 10:36 PM
Just posting some info that I was always curious about and finally tested today. I am in the process of porting one of the sets of B1 heads I have for this years build and did a weigh test on a 2.300 stainless valve and 2.300 titanium valve.
Stainless valve 150 grams
titanium valve 105 grams
45 gram difference which at 7500 RPM equals more than I figured but it comes with a pretty high cost difference. Durability would be a big factor on valve spring and rocker life. I weighted a few things to give you an idea of how much 45 grams equals. This is one of my 1/4 inch shank double-cut carbide head porting burrs and it weights 40 grams.
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/12/15 11:51 PM
I've read Ti valves are typically worth 800 rpm in valve train stability, and I would think a horsepower increase of some sort below that? I wish they were in my budget,,,,,,,,
Posted By: pittsburghracer
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/13/15 12:07 AM
Exhaust valves are 115 grams and 85 grams
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/13/15 12:20 AM
John, I have no data to back this up, but wonder if the TI intake valves would offer a horsepower increase, while the exhaust might not do much other than increase rpm range and parts life? What got me thinking is the intake closing is critical, more so than the exhaust closing.
Posted By: pittsburghracer
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/13/15 12:39 AM
Not sure on that one Greg and the only reason I even have them is they came with a set of heads I bought years ago. Thinking I may start out with the older set of heads and stainless valves as this will be a learning year with nitrous
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/13/15 01:28 AM
So if you add that carbide to the titanium valve it equals the weight of a stainless valve? Thats huge
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/13/15 01:29 AM
My set of B1 M/C had 2.4 ti valves... $130 each for
the intakes
Posted By: R5P7 Bantam
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/13/15 01:40 AM
2/3 the weight.......2/3 the spring pressure required?
Instead of 300# on the seat, now only 210# ?
Posted By: zooom
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/13/15 04:23 PM
Not to mention the potential head flow increases from the reduced valve stem & guide size: typically 7 mm or less for Ti while equivalent size [head] SS valve will be >9 mm....
Posted By: pittsburghracer
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/13/15 06:59 PM
true but in my case the stem sizes are both the same. I still will probably flow them both just for the heck of it.
Posted By: jlatessa
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/13/15 07:26 PM
Isn't the weight of the valve only a part of the reciprocating mass that the spring has to control??
i.e. lifters, pushrods, rockers, retainers and locks.
Joe
Posted By: justinp61
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/13/15 07:56 PM
So you would take 12.7oz off the intake (1.6oz ea.) side and 8.5oz off the exhaust (1.06oz ea.) side, just over 1lb 5oz that the valve springs don't have to move. Add light weight retainers and it would be a significant amount taken off.
Posted By: HotRodDave
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/13/15 08:30 PM
Look at it this way, would you add that much weight to all your valves if someone paid you a couple hundred bucks?
Posted By: jlatessa
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/13/15 08:46 PM
I don't think looking at the total weight is a clear picture, each spring has only one valve among all the other parts to control.
I'll give you that at a certain performance level it becomes a no-brainer but under, say 7500 RPMs I don't know if you will see either performance or longevity issues.
Of course if money is no object......
BUT, if someone were to make the cost a little easier on the wallet, they'd be standard issue on my eng.
Joe
Posted By: HotRodDave
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/13/15 08:53 PM
Even at 7500 there should be a longevity benefit as you can run a lot lighter tension spring.
Posted By: jlatessa
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/13/15 09:02 PM
I agree, the lightest springs to control a given RPM are what we should all have.
I would like to hear what Hughes or Barton and the like have actually seen in practice because of a change in valve weight alone.
Good topic...Joe
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/13/15 09:14 PM
Quote:
I agree, the lightest springs to control a given RPM are what we should all have.
I would like to hear what Hughes or Barton and the like have actually seen in practice because of a change in valve weight alone.
Good topic...Joe
A lot of times the guy puts the ti valve in to lighten
the over all weight BUT normally they plan on turning
up the revs.. I went that way to turn 9000 plus rpm
Posted By: rowin4
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/14/15 12:53 AM
Quote:
My set of B1 M/C had 2.4 ti valves... $130 each for
the intakes
I was just thinking the same thing, when they quoted titanium valves for the hemi they were about that price each. To rich for what I needed.
Posted By: R5P7 Bantam
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/14/15 02:53 AM
Quote:
Isn't the weight of the valve only a part of the reciprocating mass that the spring has to control??
i.e. lifters, pushrods, rockers, retainers and locks.
Joe
We can get really into this if you like, but let's start with the basics. What's the purpose of the spring?
1. bring the valve back up via the retainer after opening.
2. Yes, permit the roller wheel or flat tappet to stay in contact with the backside of the cam lobe.
Also, think of it this way, during the opening and closing process of the valves, there isn't any lash or separation between the components of the cam and valve train (at least there isn't suppose to be).
We can get into fulcrum lengths and pivot lengths too if you want. It's all mechanics and levers that dictate the pressure required.
Posted By: Street Monkies
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/14/15 03:20 AM
The best way to figure out what you need is to put a engine on a spintron. Very expensive and some engine builders have access to them. With this you can find out what valve springs pressures you can run, lifter bounce, how stable the valve train is at high rpm, ect.
Posted By: R5P7 Bantam
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/14/15 03:35 AM
Quote:
The best way to figure out what you need is to put a engine on a spintron. Very expensive and some engine builders have access to them. With this you can find out what valve springs pressures you can run, lifter bounce, how stable the valve train is at high rpm, ect.
Spintron is the way to go.....but first you need to optimize the valve train geometry or you will play 52 pickup with little metal parts. The ideal methodology behind the spintron is to exceed the desired rpm and test for longevity (granted the valve train geometry is fixed / optimized). Then when the desired rpm is utilized, you can feel confident in 2x,3x, etc the extended life of valve train parts.
It's kinda simple to make your own spintron. electric motor and rheostat directly coupled to the camshaft. Hook up the valve train and get an adjustable strobe light (timing light). Once optimized, its just an endurance test.
Posted By: pittsburghracer
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/14/15 03:55 AM
Its WAY over my head as I'm a simple country boy but do you see sizable advantages using titanium valves in a combo like mine?
572 Keith Black
4.500 bore
4.500 stroke
B1 head
800 plus lift roller
7000-7500 shift RPM (est)
Nitrous
Posted By: R5P7 Bantam
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/14/15 04:09 AM
Quote:
Its WAY over my head as I'm a simple country boy but do you see sizable advantages using titanium valves in a combo like mine?
572 Keith Black
4.500 bore
4.500 stroke
B1 head
800 plus lift roller
7000-7500 shift RPM (est)
Nitrous
Sizeable?....define as $ invested per run or $ invested per .01 et gain? Not sure what it means to you.
Here's my assessment: If you're going Ti, go to a 8mm or 7mm stem. Knock out the guides and install new tapered ended bronze guides. They're all over ebay cheap....real cheap, just get the right ones. Then look for proper length valves and do a valve job (most have a different seat angle than you're use to seeing).
Lighter components yield longer life on the reciprocating parts. If you're looking for lots of runs, then good move. If you think you'll be grenading it sooner, then don't invest the time or money. Since you're juicing it, stick with what you have. If you optimize the combo and chassis and you need more, then make the investment.
Good luck either way. Hope this helps?
Posted By: bigtimeauto
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/14/15 04:42 AM
If you guys want valvetrain stability stop playing with standard size cam cores
Posted By: pittsburghracer
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/14/15 05:07 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Its WAY over my head as I'm a simple country boy but do you see sizable advantages using titanium valves in a combo like mine?
572 Keith Black
4.500 bore
4.500 stroke
B1 head
800 plus lift roller
7000-7500 shift RPM (est)
Nitrous
Sizeable?....define as $ invested per run or $ invested per .01 et gain? Not sure what it means to you.
Here's my assessment: If you're going Ti, go to a 8mm or 7mm stem. Knock out the guides and install new tapered ended bronze guides. They're all over ebay cheap....real cheap, just get the right ones. Then look for proper length valves and do a valve job (most have a different seat angle than you're use to seeing).
Lighter components yield longer life on the reciprocating parts. If you're looking for lots of runs, then good move. If you think you'll be grenading it sooner, then don't invest the time or money. Since you're juicing it, stick with what you have. If you optimize the combo and chassis and you need more, then make the investment.
Good luck either way. Hope this helps?
I already have the titanium valves that are 11/32 and re-buying another set and reworking the heads is way out of my budget. This is for a heads-up type build but it has to be within reason. I'm now retired and also have a 9 second bracket car that I race weekly. I want to have FUN but it can't be a "ball out' type of operation. 
Posted By: jlatessa
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/14/15 04:55 PM
Bigtime, give us some info on cam core size and how it affects
valve train performance...thanks, Joe
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/15/15 01:06 AM
I didn't read all this, but NEGATIVE on lower spring pressure for Ti valves. That is not the purpose at all. Yes, the lighter valve is easier to move, but the main advantage is to KEEP IT SHUT. Heavy valves bounce on the seat, Ti valves not so much. Mostly a weight and momentum thing.
SS/AH motors likely have 450lb on the seat, WITH Ti valves
Big cam cores DON'T flex with big spring pressures.......it's that simple
Monte
Posted By: bigtimeauto
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/15/15 01:11 AM
Quote:
SS/AH motors likely have 450lb on the seat, WITH Ti valves
Big cam cores DON'T flex with big spring pressures.......it's that simple
Monte
If you are running a ss/ah with ti valve's your cheating. They are not allowed.
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/15/15 01:16 AM
And something like that NEVERS happens........LOL!!
OK, so change the statement to PS HEMI.......makes no damn difference. The point is, Ti valves do NOT mean you run LESS spring pressure
Monte
Posted By: bigtimeauto
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/15/15 01:17 AM
Quote:
Bigtime, give us some info on cam core size and how it affects
valve train performance...thanks, Joe
the short version is 2 fold. The obvious one is there is no twisting from the valve springs. Second is you get to run a bigger lobe so you can control the opening and closing of the valve better with less rocker arm ratio.
Posted By: bigtimeauto
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/15/15 01:18 AM
Quote:
And something like that NEVERS happens........LOL!!
OK, so change the statement to PS HEMI.......makes no damn difference. The point is, Ti valves do NOT mean you run LESS spring pressure
Monte
lol i know i run them in street cars. now a big cam core you can run less pressure.....
Posted By: Monte_Smith
Re: Valve weight tech, stainless to titanium difference - 01/15/15 01:34 AM
Also, one of the largest determining factors of spring pressure is cam PROFILE. Lift and how much of it you have, is of little concern if the cam has a super aggressive lobe. You can make a 1" lift cam relatively smooth and easy on valve train parts and you can make a 600 lift cam toss out parts faster than you can replace them. All about how violently and aggressively you snap the valve open and let it slam shut. Lift is NOT what kills springs. Because think about it guys.....a PROPERLY set up valve spring should be compressed within .040-.050 of coil bind, regardless of lift. So just because you have a smaller cam, does NOT automatically make it easier on springs.
We have some Drag Week cars with 1" and MORE lift cams.......they make it just fine
Monte
