Moparts

Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why?

Posted By: Porter67

Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 03:19 AM

Maybe im stuck in the past using ball/cup pushrods but I see many use ball/ball.

Which is better? Or better yet what applications would one use one type vs the other?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 03:30 AM

Quote:

Maybe im stuck in the past using ball/cup pushrods but I see many use ball/ball.

Which is better? Or better yet what applications would one use one type vs the other?



I've been using ball and ball for 12+ years now..
if you look at the BEST rockers out there, they use
ball and ball
Posted By: Porter67

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 04:04 AM

Ive noticed a lot of rocker arm manufactures now give the option of either.

I almost have more faith in my comp pro mags vs the HS70025k 1.5 that came with ball only. But at least I didn't have to clearance them like so many do when using a 1.55 spring.

Is it me or do some feel the Harland Sharps are over rated? As there needle bearing PN cross references with the china needle bearing rockers but with two less needles but they do cross reference and interchange as far as fitment well.

Comp used to brag on there SS rockers being stronger and lighter as the Al. units produced. But now they push there own so called high end rockers made of al. at over 1k.

Still what is the advantage of a ball ball in a non oiling pushrod application in a say #600 or lower on the nose?
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 04:25 AM

Apparently ball/ball is the strongest but I`ve been runnin ball/cup forever but I don`t have a crazy cam either and my over rated HS`s seem to be doing fine after 8+ years of street/strip bashing.
Posted By: Porter67

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 04:34 AM

I should rephrase that "Ive heard the HS were over rated" this is the second set Ive had, sold the last set to a friend and this set was part of a parts swap deal.

But I have seen many pics of the ones that HS themselves cut for clearance for bigger springs.

Im gonna run this new set as they seem pretty stout and good shafts,ect and I also use ball cups pushrods and have never had an issue as well as using lashcaps as so many do without issue.

Ive a friend with a nice LS1 build and they think out of the box and things work.

For some reason a lot of the mopar thinking is set in stone but without any merit to support it.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 05:19 AM

Like anything else, one guy has a problem w/a product and they suck. A buddy of mine was killin crower top of the line rockers and they "sucked" come to find out clearances were stacking and he was in coil bind heavy tearin em up.
Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 01:13 PM

Ball/ball is better for angular geometry and the clearence issues created by ball/cup.
Posted By: Porter67

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 02:03 PM

Yes BG I have found that out the hard way many years ago, some of the cheaper off the shelf pushrods have the thick cup that does cause issues with some rockers.

I use Smith Brothers just for that reason as there cup material is not near as thick and cause less problems.

I think its time I try to make the move to the ball ball in the future since it seems its become more the standard.

I have been resisting going to the ball/ball mainly due to the lack of info and its hard to change when one gets older to newer trends.

I have a few modern motors yet to build and they are both Ball/Ball the R5/P7 is and I don't recall what the older my older Aries 8.3 tractor pulling motor has in them, I think ball cup as its semi old. Early-mid 80-s I think.

Thanks everyone for the input.

Thumper, I think you have a extremely well running motor combo and its proof of what well matched parts can do and last a long time.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 04:15 PM

Thank you sir and the best is yet to come...............SOON BABY...............
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 05:14 PM

Quote:

Ball/ball is better for angular geometry and the clearence issues created by ball/cup.

Also easier to oil on the rocker end and better availability.
Posted By: 80fbody

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 05:17 PM

Good thread. I was actually thinking my comps had the wrong adjusters cause there ball/ball. Was going to order replacements until I read this. Good timing.
Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 06:07 PM

I wouldn't say one or the other is BETTER, just depends on the quality of parts used. I mostly use ball/ball but just put a set of "cup" pushrods in an 865" motor. Now of course those pushrods are so big, that basically the "cup" is machined into the pushrod, but it is still the same thing.

Now I will say, that in the case of a standard 3/8 pushrod deal, I prefer ball/ball because the pushrods are one piece and you can get them in .180 wall. That is a STOUT 3/8 pushrod, plus places like Comp and others keep them in stock at virtually any length you need in .050 increments

Monte
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 06:10 PM

On T&D single shaft rockers the pushrod length(+ or - .090) is very critical due to the oil slot in the adjusters for the ball end pushrods Not so much on all the single shaft Harland Sharp, Crane and all the rest of the ball and cup rockers I've used They can be within .150 of perfect and still work well
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 06:29 PM

Quote:

On T&D single shaft rockers the pushrod length(+ or - .090) is very critical due to the oil slot in the adjusters for the ball end pushrods Not so much on all the single shaft Harland Sharp, Crane and all the rest of the ball and cup rockers I've used They can be within .150 of perfect and still work well



Cab.. thats a lot to play with... if a person cant
get the length right.. within .020 or so then they
need help doing it
Posted By: Porter67

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 06:56 PM

I know on my S Brothers pushrods cups the OD of the cup is approx. .429 where the same length comp magnum pushrod is approx. .489 od on the cup. .060 might not seem like a lot but in this case one is a no go and one is dead on go.

Yes small block rocker geometry kinda sucks but ya just work around it.

The comp just kisses the rocker when not running so what would it do at 7500 rpm.

There is a 100 ways to skin a cat but I think when each individual finds out what works for them they tend to stick with it.

Im signed up on speedtalk but mainly lurk unless I know I have good positive input, imo its a decent place where a lot of skilled people confer vs argue.
Posted By: 80fbody

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 07:45 PM

Quote:

I wouldn't say one or the other is BETTER, just depends on the quality of parts used. I mostly use ball/ball but just put a set of "cup" pushrods in an 865" motor. Now of course those pushrods are so big, that basically the "cup" is machined into the pushrod, but it is still the same thing.

Now I will say, that in the case of a standard 3/8 pushrod deal, I prefer ball/ball because the pushrods are one piece and you can get them in .180 wall. That is a STOUT 3/8 pushrod, plus places like Comp and others keep them in stock at virtually any length you need in .050 increments

Monte



Thanks Monte. That's good info. Ordering pushrods is coming up next on my list.
Posted By: gtea1901

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 07:50 PM

check these out stewardperformance.com
Posted By: BradH

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 08:49 PM

I find it interesting that Jesel lists the ball-type adjuster for use w/ cup-end pushrods as an upgrade on their Pro series rockers: "Optional Ball Adjuster - Has less friction than cup type adjusters. Makes rocker arm stronger by increasing the adjuster thread area and eliminates counterbore area."
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/22/14 09:50 PM

One thing with big lift and ball/cup is you need the
120* radius which makes for a skinnier area right
behind the ball and if you get a bit farther out past
the rocker body you start side loading a lot more
on the ball section and usually when you have big
lift the spring pressure is up there
Posted By: 74yellowduster

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/23/14 03:19 PM

you still have a ball and a cup either way you do it. either on the pushrod or on the adjuster.

the A#1 most important thing of all is that all clearances are checked/blueprinted and it's done by an experienced competent builder.

if you do it on the side / novice etc. then do it up best you can but still get someone to double check your work. two heads are better than one
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/23/14 03:28 PM

This setup on my 514 engine is good for about 0.900 lift. So the cup style pushrod will work at high lift, but you need to buy the right parts.

Attached picture 8278350-jesel.JPG
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/24/14 03:42 AM

Quote:

I wouldn't say one or the other is BETTER, just depends on the quality of parts used.
.
.
.
Now I will say, that in the case of a standard 3/8 pushrod deal, I prefer ball/ball because the pushrods are one piece and you can get them in .180 wall.

Monte,
I have seen mixed comments on the one-piece pushrods. Some manufacturers say the pressed in ends are better because the material can be different for the ends and the separate ends "can be" machined more accurately without thinning out the pushrod when forming the one-piece end.

My new motor has pressed in ends, 0.120" wall, 3/8" dia, ball-ball with T&D paired rocker system. That should be plenty with less than 800 open pressure.
Quote:

Features Include:

Highest quality 4135 seamless Chromoly tubing for extreme applications
Straight tube any length
180,000 psi tensile strength
240-degree ball for excellent rocker arm cup clearance
Salt bath nitride surface treatment for outstanding wear properties and strength
Tips are made from high impact, wear-resistant 8620 barstock that is case hardened and cryogenically treated and tempered




Attached picture 8279121-Scorpion_pushrod_pic.jpg
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/24/14 03:46 AM

Jim, if your engine isn't together yet then take the time to provide clearance for larger pushrods. Buy one set of 1/2 inch pushrods just for clearance checking. At some point in the future you can swap over and see if there is any performance improvement. I think you'll find some power.
Posted By: jamesc

Re: Which is better ball cup or ball ball pushrods and why? - 09/27/14 04:09 AM

Quote:

Jim, if your engine isn't together yet then take the time to provide clearance for larger pushrods. Buy one set of 1/2 inch pushrods just for clearance checking. At some point in the future you can swap over and see if there is any performance improvement. I think you'll find some power.



that's a good idea Andy and i agree

don't spend much time here these days but "think" i learned a little bit about push rods recently. for the more highly stressed components used these days i'm of the impression stepping up to a 7/16" double taper is a good idea. if i ever get my junk together i will be using more than a 3/8".

as for the ball/ball ball/cup thing i think it's a mixed bag. recently i learned (i think) of using copper/beryllium in cups. i haven't seen the parts yet but am curious to say the least.
in recent months i've seen some VERY stout, seriously stressed valvetrain components (over 1" lift and STIFF springs) and was impressed.
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