Moparts
please share your gen 3 Hemi build
Posted By: Charger453
please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/21/14 04:16 PM
I'd like to see the detailed combos everyone has put together whether it is N/A, Procharged, turbo'd, nitrous, whatever. I'm on the fence about selling off all my big block parts and putting a new hemi in my car. I'd love to hear some HP/TQ #'s and/or track time if you got em. I want real world results, not some magazine article BS.
I have a line on a 5.7 core and I'm undecided on what route to take.
Thanks!
Posted By: hudsonhornet7x
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/21/14 04:29 PM
Here is a brand new 6.1 block on ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-1-Hemi-Bare-Block-/171468489326?vxp=mtrPM me with what you have for sale as far as big block stuff.
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/21/14 04:35 PM
Mine is a 4.08 x 4.09 bore now. I think its about a -13 cc dish diamond piston and k1 crank and rods. I have oilers in mine.
Cam is close to .600 lift with
250@505.7 eagle heads i ported, manley springs, retainers, etc
Muscle motors short 4150 imtake with a hvh dom adapter.
I have only had it to the track once, ran 10.08 @ 3150lbs
With 3" exhaust
My gear is 3.55 and the converter is too tight imo
I constantly say im going to spray it so i dont want to change the converter and gear but im always busy working on other people's stuff and or its just to hot or wet. The car can be driven anywhere though
Posted By: Charger453
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/21/14 04:43 PM
I want to stay with a 5.7 block as I'm undecided if I'm going to boost this thing for 1000+ HP. I hear the cylinder walls aren't as thick on a 6.1 block. Keep in mind, this complete 5.7 core is less than 1/4 the price of just that block. As for big block parts, let me be absolutely sure this is the path I'm taking. Are you looking for low deck or RB stuff?
Ray, do most people keep the lift at or near .600 for geometry reasons? What $$$ does Muscle Motors get for their shortened intake? I see Hughes sells the tall one, but they don't list the short one.
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/21/14 05:01 PM
I believe Steff and 340rick are running larger cams. I believe Steff was trying to increase the height of his rocker stands when he split one and then Member Jerry came to the rescue and made billet stands that look awesome.
Those guys would probably do a better job of answering your question
I bought my intake from Mike Ware for $550 but now I see it being sold for almost 800 from modern muscle. I would call Mike before buying it from those other guys. The word is the tall plenum is really needed
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/21/14 05:06 PM
You can get new aluminum blocks for under 4300. I should just get one so Im not making one of those posts about there being no blocks available
Posted By: Dragula
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/21/14 05:26 PM
Wish I had one...
Posted By: Charger453
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/21/14 06:00 PM
Quote:
I believe Steff and 340rick are running larger cams. I believe Steff was trying to increase the height of his rocker stands when he split one and then Member Jerry came to the rescue and made billet stands that look awesome.
Those guys would probably do a better job of answering your question
I bought my intake from Mike Ware for $550 but now I see it being sold for almost 800 from modern muscle. I would call Mike before buying it from those other guys. The word is the tall plenum is really needed
Hopefully some guys running the bigger cams will chime in. I did see those stands on Rick's motor and they look awesome. Anyone know a price tag?
As for the intake, that $550 price is much more appealing, but I'm sure it has increased like everything. I imagine I'll be needing an even taller scoop (4'' cowl currently) with the tall plenum intake.
Posted By: hemidup
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/21/14 08:30 PM
6.1 block with stock 4.055" bore. Offset ground 6.1 crank 3.80" stroke. Eagle Featherweight H beam Honda rod journal with .927 pin. 9:1 Ross full sump dished piston. Cammotion 219/226 .542/.554 @ .050" 114 LSA+4. XV intake 80mm throttle body. Hand ported 5.7 heads with quench pads welded up, 2.08"/1.62" Ferrea valves. Heads flow 320/229 cfm @ .575" lift. Manley valve springs/ti retainers. ARP heads, mains and rockershafts. 1 3/4" Dynatech headers with 12" Dynamax bullets. Paxton side slinger pushing 17 psi of boost, non intercooled with w/m. 11 degree's timing on pump 91. 3800 stall. Pushed my 5200 plus lb 4x4 brick to a best 1.48 60' 6.87 @ 98 in the 1/8 and still gets 14 mpg highway with the a/c on.
Posted By: Charger453
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/22/14 02:45 AM
Quote:
6.1 block with stock 4.055" bore. Offset ground 6.1 crank 3.80" stroke. Eagle Featherweight H beam Honda rod journal with .927 pin. 9:1 Ross full sump dished piston. Cammotion 219/226 .542/.554 @ .050" 114 LSA+4. XV intake 80mm throttle body. Hand ported 5.7 heads with quench pads welded up, 2.08"/1.62" Ferrea valves. Heads flow 320/229 cfm @ .575" lift. Manley valve springs/ti retainers. ARP heads, mains and rockershafts. 1 3/4" Dynatech headers with 12" Dynamax bullets. Paxton side slinger pushing 17 psi of boost, non intercooled with w/m. 11 degree's timing on pump 91. 3800 stall. Pushed my 5200 plus lb 4x4 brick to a best 1.48 60' 6.87 @ 98 in the 1/8 and still gets 14 mpg highway with the a/c on.
That's the stuff I like to hear. That's getting it done in a heavy pig. I'm really leaning towards the 3.795'' stroke in a 5.7 block with ported Eagle heads. I'm planning on going the boosted route as well but with a turbo.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/22/14 03:50 AM
My Manley Hemi specs.
6.1 block
4.065 Manley pistons,rings,pins
Manley 6.125 H beams
Manley 4.05 crank
6.1 heads cnc stock valves, ported factory 6.1 intake, EFISOURCE efi
Manley Nextek springs, Comp moly retainers and stock keepers
PWR cam , 247/255/.600 114, Manley pushrods, stock lifters and rockers
New stock 6.1 timing set and oil pump
ARP main studs and head bolts
Should run good.
Posted By: hudsonhornet7x
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/22/14 04:44 AM
Quote:
I want to stay with a 5.7 block as I'm undecided if I'm going to boost this thing for 1000+ HP. I hear the cylinder walls aren't as thick on a 6.1 block. Keep in mind, this complete 5.7 core is less than 1/4 the price of just that block. As for big block parts, let me be absolutely sure this is the path I'm taking. Are you looking for low deck or RB stuff?
I understand about the 5.7 block. Just figured you might like to see the 6.1.
I will be looking for low deck stuff if you have any.
Thanks!
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/22/14 03:41 PM
-4.055x3.580
-Stock 6.1 shortblock, new rings and bearings
-0 Deck, 11.2:1 Static, 9.0:1 Dynamic. Opened up top ring gap to prevent the pistons from shattering.
-Ported GTP 5.7 Eagle Heads, 68cc closed chambers (65cc stock)
-Frank Racing 219/227 112LSA .610/.617
-Stock 6.1 intake with 80mm BBK tb & SRT4 Stage 2 injectors
-EFI Source MS3x Engine management.
A 3900 lb magnum with less cylinder head, cam and compression went
10.94@118. That was with a drag style suspension. I don't expect my car to do that, but I do expect a similar MPH.
Posted By: Dave_S
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 04:53 AM
OK here is mine:
5.7 (+.020) from an 05 Ram
Home ported eagle heads (stock valves) Manley DragPak springs
6.1 crank, K1 rods, Wiseco dished pistons 10.7:1 comp
6.1 cam and lifters. Trend stock length 5/16 pushrods
stock rockers
6.1 intake with 90mm t/body
MS3x inj. with ford motorsports 160 lb/hr injectors
76mm turbo a/a intercooler
9.47@144 so far
3000lb Dart 3.23 gears in 8 3/4. powerglide
Posted By: Charger453
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 05:37 AM
Dave, can you give me a rundown of all the electronics you needed to run that MS3X?
I already have a blow thru carb and a fuel system designed for that so I'm on the fence about sticking with the carb or going with injection. I imagine it will be a carb for a couple years until I can save the funds to make the switch. I just want to know what kind of $$$ amount I'll be looking at. Thanks.
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 06:55 AM
http://www.efisource.com/shop/ms3-gen3-hemi-plug-play-gold-box/6 wire hook up. Couldn't be easier. The base tune will start up and run just about any modern hemi.
Posted By: Charger453
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 07:08 AM
Quote:
http://www.efisource.com/shop/ms3-gen3-hemi-plug-play-gold-box/
6 wire hook up. Couldn't be easier. The base tune will start up and run just about any modern hemi.
Awesome..thanks for the link! I'm not an efi guy yet so... How are the tuning capabilities? Just as good as a fast xfi or Holley system?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 07:44 AM
I will be running their EFI. Here is a pic of their 92mm throttle body.
Posted By: Charger453
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 07:55 AM
So, for the guys that have done this swap...
I have a 70 Charger with stock front end/suspension. Is there any factory manifold or srt8 header that will clear the steering box and torsion bar? I'm looking at doing a turbo setup and what sucks about the Hemi, as I'm sure you guys know, is you can't flip the manifolds except with the Thitek heads. I assume I'm looking at a custom header deal, huh?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 08:15 AM
Modern Muscle can make your heads dual pattern. They also can cnc them $700. That I think is a pretty good option. Can't tell you which manifolds would be best, the truck manifolds are pretty straight back log style. Durango/Aspen are I know.
Posted By: Bad340fish
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 12:08 PM
So how does the stock 6.1 intake stack up against the drag pack intake? Interested in the 3G hemi deal and with that intake I could run my stock hood.
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 03:08 PM
Quote:
So how does the stock 6.1 intake stack up against the drag pack intake? Interested in the 3G hemi deal and with that intake I could run my stock hood.
The Drag pack intake is just a single plane. It's a great intake but very peaky in comparison to the well rounded nature of the 6.1. A ported 6.1 intake will run very strong from off idle to about 6600 rpm. It will dominate a drag pack intake everywhere below 4000 rpm. You do need to have the 6.1 intake port matched to your heads, a lot of smoothing on the inside and opened to 90-92mm on the throttle body.
If you're starting from scratch on a build where you have no intake and you're going to the track a lot, I'd start with the drag pack intake.
There is a shorter drag pack intake copy without the huge pricetag that will clear most hoods. I think its by Modern Muscle.
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 03:12 PM
Quote:
So, for the guys that have done this swap...
I have a 70 Charger with stock front end/suspension. Is there any factory manifold or srt8 header that will clear the steering box and torsion bar? I'm looking at doing a turbo setup and what sucks about the Hemi, as I'm sure you guys know, is you can't flip the manifolds except with the Thitek heads. I assume I'm looking at a custom header deal, huh?
There is no factory exhaust manifold that will fit our chassis (A, B, E).
We've tried them all. SRT Car, SRT Jeep, Truck manifold, car manifold, JBA shorty, Eagle car manifold. They all hit the firewall.
Thankfully a simple log manifold would fit easily to go forward.
Posted By: Bad340fish
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 03:12 PM
I'm totally on the fence on the next build, I have an R block to use but I don't have any real good heads. I am also going fuel injected so building a gen 3 is very tempting.
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 03:26 PM
Quote:
I'm totally on the fence on the next build, I have an R block to use but I don't have any real good heads. I am also going fuel injected so building a gen 3 is very tempting.
I wanted to add efi, a roller cam, aluminum Heads and a serpentine system to my RB on a fresh build.
At that point I decided to go with something that had all of those to begin with.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 05:33 PM
One of the selling points for me was the cost of GOOD heads for a BB. That money alone covered my short block. I will have about $1300 in my cylinder heads and they will flow awesome.
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 05:37 PM
I was pricing Indy EZ heads...
It's a crime to say how much I've got in my eagles for 360cfm.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 05:38 PM
Has anyone determined what the max lift can be when
using the stock rockers(the whole stock valve train)
and is it worth looking into the aftermarket rockers
thanks
Posted By: STEFF
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 06:15 PM
Quote:
Has anyone determined what the max lift can be when
using the stock rockers(the whole stock valve train)
and is it worth looking into the aftermarket rockers
thanks
I'm running a .400 lobe, which is about it for lifter travel with the stock lifter guide that keeps lifters oriented. There are no aftermarket replacement lifters available, But, supposedly, link bar lifters are coming. Not sure when though.
Posted By: STEFF
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 06:22 PM
Quote:
I believe Steff and 340rick are running larger cams. I believe Steff was trying to increase the height of his rocker stands when he split one and then Member Jerry came to the rescue and made billet stands that look awesome.
Those guys would probably do a better job of answering your question
I bought my intake from Mike Ware for $550 but now I see it being sold for almost 800 from modern muscle. I would call Mike before buying it from those other guys. The word is the tall plenum is really needed
I designed the Rocker Shaft stands out of necessity, but it worked out for the best. I wanted to raise my rocker shafts to better the geometry and made the mistake of over tightening the rocker shaft bolts with shims under the shafts. It cracked the stock rocker mounting bosses. So, the stands were designed to salvage my heads and still put the rockers where I wanted them. Jerry helped me out big time and made them for me, and to show my gratitude, I gave him the design for his product line.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 06:23 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Has anyone determined what the max lift can be when
using the stock rockers(the whole stock valve train)
and is it worth looking into the aftermarket rockers
thanks
I'm running a .400 lobe, which is about it for lifter travel with the stock lifter guide that keeps lifters oriented. There are no aftermarket replacement lifters available, But, supposedly, link bar lifters are coming. Not sure when though.
Thanks Steff
Posted By: Charger453
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 07:30 PM
Awesome info guys. Keep it coming! Can an early set of the Hemi heads ported w bigger valves flow just as well as a ported set of Eagles? What's the best mount for me to use? I won't be using their headers but is the TTI mount setup my best bet? A turbo setup is definitely what I have planned.
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 07:37 PM
Quote:
Awesome info guys. Keep it coming! Can an early set of the Hemi heads ported w bigger valves flow just as well as a ported set of Eagles? What's the best mount for me to use? I won't be using their headers but is the TTI mount setup my best bet? A turbo setup is definitely what I have planned.
I have a set of spool mounts I didn't list for sale yet.
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 07:37 PM
If you're starting from scratch, buy a set of 6.4 apache heads. They come with a Ferea 5000 series valve factory and can accept a BBC valve spring like a PAC 1520.
$1220 with "core" charge and add in shipping.
Matt Deane in the parts department at Glendora Dodge has a set in stock. I know because I'm considering a set right now...350cfm OOTB with room to grow!
http://modernmoparforum.com/topic/12135-57-61-and-64-hemi-cylinder-head-comparison/
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 07:49 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I believe Steff and 340rick are running larger cams. I believe Steff was trying to increase the height of his rocker stands when he split one and then Member Jerry came to the rescue and made billet stands that look awesome.
Those guys would probably do a better job of answering your question
I bought my intake from Mike Ware for $550 but now I see it being sold for almost 800 from modern muscle. I would call Mike before buying it from those other guys. The word is the tall plenum is really needed
I designed the Rocker Shaft stands out of necessity, but it worked out for the best. I wanted to raise my rocker shafts to better the geometry and made the mistake of over tightening the rocker shaft bolts with shims under the shafts. It cracked the stock rocker mounting bosses. So, the stands were designed to salvage my heads and still put the rockers where I wanted them. Jerry helped me out big time and made them for me, and to show my gratitude, I gave him the design for his product line.
It's so easy to crack them. I've never done it (yet) but I've seen a friend right next to me strip one hole and crack the pedestal on another.
I torqued mine last week without issue...thankfully.
Posted By: MattW
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 07:53 PM
Quote:
If you're starting from scratch, buy a set of 6.4 apache heads. They come with a Ferea 5000 series valve factory and can accept a BBC valve spring like a PAC 1520.
$1220 with "core" charge and add in shipping.
Matt Deane in the parts department at Glendora Dodge has a set in stock. I know because I'm considering a set right now...350cfm OOTB with room to grow!
http://modernmoparforum.com/topic/12135-57-61-and-64-hemi-cylinder-head-comparison/
1220 is a single head right?
If not I'm interested in another set. Matt 
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 08:49 PM
No, that is an assembled pair.
I tried selling my eagles to buy a set, but I might buy a set anyway...
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 09:36 PM
Quote:
No, that is an assembled pair.
I tried selling my eagles to buy a set, but I might buy a set anyway...
have I ever told every one on this site how much I hate them? I just pulled the trigger on 6.4 heads. I got them from mopar-wholesale. they were $470+150 core each. That is the cheapest they have been in a very long time. I check regularly
Posted By: Triple Threat
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 09:42 PM
Quote:
Quote:
No, that is an assembled pair.
I tried selling my eagles to buy a set, but I might buy a set anyway...
have I ever told every one on this site how much I hate them? I just pulled the trigger on 6.4 heads. I got them from mopar-wholesale. they were $470+150 core each. That is the cheapest they have been in a very long time. I check regularly
Sounds more like a love hate relationship
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 09:55 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
No, that is an assembled pair.
I tried selling my eagles to buy a set, but I might buy a set anyway...
have I ever told every one on this site how much I hate them? I just pulled the trigger on 6.4 heads. I got them from mopar-wholesale. they were $470+150 core each. That is the cheapest they have been in a very long time. I check regularly
Sounds more like a love hate relationship
I just checked the other 5.7 and 6.1 heads and they are alot more expensive. ALOT!!! this is one of those opportunities where I probably should be ordering 5 sets of heads but I'm to much of a chicken s__t
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 10:25 PM
Damn it! Wish I had the cabbage right now, how much are the valve covers needed?
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 10:36 PM
Do 6.4 heads bolt on to 5.7 blocks? Or will the bore size shroud the valve? (hopefully I am saying that right)....
Also, do they use all the same rocker gear as say an early 5.7, so that it can all just transfer over to the 5.7 head?
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 10:41 PM
Oh, and is there a difference between the 6.4 truck head and the SRT head? Are they both "Apache"?
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 11:07 PM
It's too early to find out about the truck heads. I wish I knew.
I have a feeling the hellcat heads are identical also. They said they're made from a completely different alloy also.
09 and up 5.7 (eagle) use the same cover as the 6.4. The area that seals against the spark plug tube is recessed, because the plug tubes are shorter.
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 11:15 PM
Quote:
It's too early to find out about the truck heads. I wish I knew.
I have a feeling the hellcat heads are identical also. They said they're made from a completely different alloy also.
09 and up 5.7 (eagle) use the same cover as the 6.4. The area that seals against the spark plug tube is recessed, because the plug tubes are shorter.
So can the 6.4 heads work on a 5.7 bore? Even with say a .020" overbore? If so, I am going to pull the trigger on those heads that sixpackgut mentioned...wondering if they are bare or complete heads for that price also.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 11:24 PM
So can the 6.4 heads work on a 5.7 bore? Even with say a .020" overbore? If so, I am going to pull the trigger on those heads that sixpackgut mentioned...wondering if they are bare or complete heads for that price also.
Based on info from this read I would say no.. read it
for yourself
http://modernmoparforum.com/topic/12135-57-61-and-64-hemi-cylinder-head-comparison/
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 11:27 PM
I think Apaches need 4.06 or larger bores or a notch.
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/23/14 11:28 PM
Quote:
So can the 6.4 heads work on a 5.7 bore? Even with say a .020" overbore? If so, I am going to pull the trigger on those heads that sixpackgut mentioned...wondering if they are bare or complete heads for that price also.
Based on info from this read I would say no.. read it
for yourself
http://modernmoparforum.com/topic/12135-57-61-and-64-hemi-cylinder-head-comparison/
I read that already...but I am wondering if with an overbore a 5.7 can use those heads? Although I am thinking no as well since there is a .170" difference in bore size between the 2 engines.
Posted By: 65signet
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 12:13 AM
Posted By: Dave_S
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 03:34 AM
Charger; as for the electronics I have the MS3x box and the two harnesses, a pair of DIY Autotunes "Quadspark" coil driver boxes, boost control solenoid, air and coolant temp sensors. cam and crank sensors (OEM), coils (OEM),eight resistors for the low imp. injectors and a bunch of connectors from a junk yard harness. Almost all was purchased from
www.diyautotune.com. The MS was bought in a kit form and the set up for the hemi is on their website.. There is a butt-load of wires in the harness, but I only used half....but half a "butt-load" is still a lot!
Eight injs., eight coils, TPS, temp sensors, fuel pump, power and ground. idle motor/solenoid (I don't use one)
It was a rewarding challenge.
.jpg "8279108-wiring(2).jpg")
Posted By: Charger453
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 03:38 AM
And I don't like wires.lol
For budget reasons, I'll probably stick with a carb for a couple years, and if it's in the funds, swap over to injection at that time. I already have a CSU 750 E85 dual needle and seat carb so...
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 04:22 AM
I believe holley has the hemi harness done for their holley efi
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 04:38 AM
My ms3x kit comes in a simple pre wired harness. No mess at all and the coil drivers are built into the box.
Posted By: Charger453
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 04:50 AM
Alex, I sent u a PM
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 05:37 AM
It can be an expensive changeover, I know I'm in the middle of it, but the route you take depends on the core engine you end up with. I traded a 19yr old 400/448 for a worn out 6.1 that had dropped a valve. It needed bored .010 over and that turned into wth and stroking it. It came with new valves, one good head, a good 6.1 intake, New takeout pistons and rings, valvesprings, etc. The intake is why I chose the EFISource setup. If starting from scratch, going carb may save a few bucks but if efi is in the plans might as well get that ball rolling right off the bat.
Posted By: Charger453
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 05:52 AM
I'm not even sure I'll ever go EFI. I'm not against carbs and there are all sorts of cars running way faster than I ever will using em. I guess I'm just trying to weigh my options at this point. I have a kick ass blow thru carb and an awesome pump/regulator. None of that would be any use so we will see. If I want the car on the streets next year, EFI will probably have to wait. I'm guessing I'll be digging for loose change since I'm starting from scratch and I'll also be buying a turbo or two.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 06:14 AM
Thats why I'm going with EFI now... I figure it'll
be at least a year before I get a gen 3 turbo built
up and in the mean time I can run the EFI on my 416
and learn about it and get the feel of it before I
hang the EFI on the gen 3 turbo
Posted By: 70blackfish
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 07:04 AM
7.0 and 6.4 one is mine.......no build info
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 12:51 PM
Quote:
7.0 and 6.4 one is mine.......no build info
Where have you been? You made car craft then you were to good for us? 
Posted By: BBR
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 03:17 PM
Someone needs to start a "What works and what does not Gen 3 Hemi" thread and sticky that sucker to the top.
Stuff like: what front dress, what oil pan, what hp level the stock crank/rods/pistons typically decide to die, whose engine mounts and headers work well, what heads fit what blocks, etc etc etc.
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 04:21 PM
To me the carb is a compromise for they 3g hemi. Fuel was meant to be sprayed through an injector bung on this motor, and thats where it should stay.
I don't want to go againsts the guys at Mopar who established technology and spent millions of dollars building this platform only to handicap it with a carb.
On that note, STEFF will be stoopid fast with a carb...but thats an exception lol.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 04:33 PM
Quote:
To me the carb is a compromise for they 3g hemi. Fuel was meant to be sprayed through an injector bung on this motor, and thats where it should stay.
I don't want to go againsts the guys at Mopar who established technology and spent millions of dollars building this platform only to handicap it with a carb.
On that note, STEFF will be stoopid fast with a carb...but thats an exception lol.
I think your right in that aspect.. the original intake
is better off being dry and injecting at the head
but the drag pack intake was designed to be wet but
yet it should work fine being dry
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 04:43 PM
Quote:
Quote:
To me the carb is a compromise for they 3g hemi. Fuel was meant to be sprayed through an injector bung on this motor, and thats where it should stay.
I don't want to go againsts the guys at Mopar who established technology and spent millions of dollars building this platform only to handicap it with a carb.
On that note, STEFF will be stoopid fast with a carb...but thats an exception lol.
I think your right in that aspect.. the original intake
is better off being dry and injecting at the head
but the drag pack intake was designed to be wet but
yet it should work fine being dry
drag pack intake was supposed to be dry with injectors and a throttle body on top
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 04:48 PM
drag pack intake was supposed to be dry with injectors and a throttle body on top
Just from the looks of it it looks like more of a
wet design.. straight tall runners.. no big radius..
but in my opinion any wet intake will work great in
a dry condition
EDIT
A single bbl version of a tunnel ram for the torque
Posted By: MattW
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 05:44 PM
Quote:
Do 6.4 heads bolt on to 5.7 blocks? Or will the bore size shroud the valve? (hopefully I am saying that right)....
Also, do they use all the same rocker gear as say an early 5.7, so that it can all just transfer over to the 5.7 head?
Matthew I place one of my Apache heads on a stock bore 5.7 without a gasket. I even posted a picture here on Moparts. But for the life of me I can't find the post LOL
Anyways they do "fit" you would have to notch the top of the bore, IMO nothing major.
The real question is . Is the Apache head TOO BIG for the bore limited block? :twocents
Matt
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 05:44 PM
Don't get me wrong, the DP intake isn't anything fancy. It' a compromised intake that in basic design, a carb intake.
That being said, I'd only use one on a 426+ CI motor, 240+ @.050 camshaft, 12:1 compression on 93, 2" headers with heads like my eagles. That would be over 550rwhp from a streetable combination, and it would be perfect to run a 250+shot on.
As a matter of fact, that just may be what I build next...but with the shorter intake. It would be way less trouble than the forced induction on my car.
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 06:11 PM
Quote:
Don't get me wrong, the DP intake isn't anything fancy. It' a compromised intake that in basic design, a carb intake.
That being said, I'd only use one on a 426+ CI motor, 240+ @.050 camshaft, 12:1 compression on 93, 2" headers with heads like my eagles. That would be over 550rwhp from a streetable combination, and it would be perfect to run a 250+shot on.
As a matter of fact, that just may be what I build next...but with the shorter intake. It would be way less trouble than the forced induction on my car.
sounds like mine except the comp
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 06:17 PM
No doubt that your car is a huge inspiration and it runs. I'd keep the efi and not do much else. I'd even be fine with 1.75" headers on that....
I'd really like to match what the LS7 does but in a hemi. I even thing 600rwhp isn't out of the question with the right combination.
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 06:28 PM
Quote:
No doubt that your car is a huge inspiration and it runs. I'd keep the efi and not do much else. I'd even be fine with 1.75" headers on that....
I'd really like to match what the LS7 does but in a hemi. I even thing 600rwhp isn't out of the question with the right combination.
I don't know if you get Hot Rod. they built a Mast head LS7, Holley tunnel ram, dual throttle bodies, cam bigger than mine, put it in that yellow Camaro test car. changed the gear to 4.56 but had the 4l80 trans so they could do that. guess what it ran? exactly the same number as mine and the exact same weight. it had to have $10k more in the engine than mine does, not to mention gear
http://www.hotrod.com/feature_stories/1405_700hp_shootout_efi_ls7_vs_blown_big_block/
Posted By: mcat4321
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 06:33 PM
Quote:
My ms3x kit comes in a simple pre wired harness. No mess at all and the coil drivers are built into the box.
have you run this set up yet?
Posted By: Bad340fish
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 06:44 PM
What MS box has the coil drivers built in for the Hemi? I think the EFIsource ones were having issues.
Posted By: mcat4321
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 07:01 PM
Quote:
What MS box has the coil drivers built in for the Hemi? I think the EFIsource ones were having issues.
yes, my efisource was having issues. I worked with mike for weeks getting it figured out.
Posted By: Bad340fish
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 07:14 PM
Ahh OK I talked to you on Drag Week, I had the Blue 68 Fastback
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 07:37 PM
Quote:
Quote:
What MS box has the coil drivers built in for the Hemi? I think the EFIsource ones were having issues.
yes, my efisource was having issues. I worked with mike for weeks getting it figured out.
Do tell? I was aware of the fuel pump relay needing to be bigger and have separated wiring to reduce interference, but nothing directly with the divers not working.
I'm about a month from firing it.
Posted By: Uhcoog1
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 10:04 PM
I'm putting my third 3G hemi in my duster at the moment.
First motor:
415 rwhp mustang dyno - forged 5.7 .020 over. 218/224 on 113+3. Shorty headers welded by me around factory power steering (now on shelf)
Second motor:
Bone stock 6.1. Ran great on the road course (TTI's with Borgeson)
Third motor:
6.1 based 392. (updated jig TTI's with Borgeson)
For engine management, I bought a pre-build MS3x box from DIY Autotune. I use two VW coil drivers wired externally. I've got all the part numbers for the plugs (for the coil drivers). I bought a used factory harness for $150 and spliced it into the DIYautotune harness.
The new Holley offerings look very appealing. I don't know anyone running them yet.
For an A body, here's what does and doesn't work:
Factory Power Steering: nothing works
Borgeson power steering:
Works:Special TTI's made for this box and A body
Doesn't work: everything else
Factory Manual Steering:
Works: 03-08 5.7 jeep grand Cherokee exhaust manifolds, 03-08 LX exhaust manifolds (requires passenger frame notch - see Gdemon's build), TTI headers
Doesn't work: SRT8 exhaust manifolds - any year and model, 09+ challenger 5.7 manifolds
unknown: 09+ jeep manifolds, 09+ LX manifolds
Factory manual steering with exhaust facing forward (guessing):
Best guesses: truck manifold one side (points straight), unknown other side
Aftermarket coil over K member with rack and pinion:
Works: special TTI's, jeep SRT8 manifolds (requires a few mods), 5.7 03-08 jeep manifolds
Doesn't work: LX SRT8 manifolds
*If you see a mistake in my A body exhaust list above, please let me know and I'll edit it accordingly.
Posted By: Uhcoog1
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 10:15 PM
Efi Source now sells a pre-wired megasquirt kit. If you want to do it yourself, here's the tutorial I wrote:
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=226125
Posted By: 340RICK
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 11:10 PM
6.1 stroker 426ci
Manley stroker kit
Bullet solid roller .659/.678 262/276
6.1 heads CNC by Modern touched up and valve Job by David Barton 2.10x1.1.60 valve
Harland Sharp rockers 3/8 push rods
Drag Pak manifold untouched
Fast 4150 throttle body
Fast XFI/2.0
Made
776HP@7400rpm and
610ftlbs@6100rpmbest of 9.61 at 139mph
Posted By: justinp61
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/24/14 11:41 PM
Rick, how much cranking pressure and what compression ratio is your engine? Do you race it on pump 93?
Thanks
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/25/14 01:03 AM
Quote:
6.1 stroker 426ci
Manley stroker kit
Bullet solid roller .659/.678 262/276
6.1 heads CNC by Modern touched up and valve Job by David Barton 2.10x1.1.60 valve
Harland Sharp rockers 3/8 push rods
Drag Pak manifold untouched
Fast 4150 throttle body
Fast XFI/2.0
Made [Email]776HP@7400rpm[/Email] and [Email]610ftlbs@6100rpm[/Email]
best of 9.61 at 139mph
What lifters? and what rocker arms? Are they the ones that have a 2k price tag? Last I remember hearing mentioned was that no one is making solid roller lifters yet for the new hemis, and that aftermarket rockers were VERY expensive.
Car runs HARD though Rick! Everytime I see your sig and read about your combo, it makes me want a G3 even more!
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/25/14 01:05 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Do 6.4 heads bolt on to 5.7 blocks? Or will the bore size shroud the valve? (hopefully I am saying that right)....
Also, do they use all the same rocker gear as say an early 5.7, so that it can all just transfer over to the 5.7 head?
Matthew I place one of my Apache heads on a stock bore 5.7 without a gasket. I even posted a picture here on Moparts. But for the life of me I can't find the post LOL
Anyways they do "fit" you would have to notch the top of the bore, IMO nothing major.
The real question is . Is the Apache head TOO BIG for the bore limited block? :twocents
Matt
I will try to search the post, although it will prbably be VERY hard to find using even the google search function at the top. I would be curious to see how much of a "notch" would need to be made, and whether they are even worth throwing on to a 5.7 bore...Let's face it, if they don't fit a 5.7 bore, then I would render them useful for only a small percentage of builds since the 5.7 is the most common and the cheapest to purchase as well.
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/25/14 05:03 AM
Quote:
6.1 stroker 426ci
Manley stroker kit
Bullet solid roller .659/.678 262/276
6.1 heads CNC by Modern touched up and valve Job by David Barton 2.10x1.1.60 valve
Harland Sharp rockers 3/8 push rods
Drag Pak manifold untouched
Fast 4150 throttle body
Fast XFI/2.0
Made [Email]776HP@7400rpm[/Email] and [Email]610ftlbs@6100rpm[/Email]
best of 9.61 at 139mph
Rick, how are you liking the XFI? Also, what are your static and dynamic compression numbers?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/25/14 06:19 AM
Quote:
Quote:
6.1 stroker 426ci
Manley stroker kit
Bullet solid roller .659/.678 262/276
6.1 heads CNC by Modern touched up and valve Job by David Barton 2.10x1.1.60 valve
Harland Sharp rockers 3/8 push rods
Drag Pak manifold untouched
Fast 4150 throttle body
Fast XFI/2.0
Made [Email]776HP@7400rpm[/Email] and [Email]610ftlbs@6100rpm[/Email]
best of 9.61 at 139mph
What lifters? and what rocker arms? Are they the ones that have a 2k price tag? Last I remember hearing mentioned was that no one is making solid roller lifters yet for the new hemis, and that aftermarket rockers were VERY expensive.
Car runs HARD though Rick! Everytime I see your sig and read about your combo, it makes me want a G3 even more!
What ive heard guys do with the solid rollers is converter the stock lifters to solid via some spacers. The stockers are that good and I have a couple sets and the things are beefcake 100%. I have a set of 6.1 heads I would be glad to part with that would be great for your 5.7 to Shred. Im gonna use them if I cant find someone who can use them, I have to sell them though to afford some Apaches.Edit: I'm gonna keep the 6.1 heads. 
Posted By: 340RICK
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/25/14 11:34 PM
I am using stock non MDS lifters that are gutted and had a solid roller grind cam made for it.
Also I do have the Harland Sharps that are not cheap
Alex The FAST XFI is great now that the motor is happy. I had so many issues with the HYD roller cam and non ADJ rockers valve springs push rods etc... that I had motor issues not EFI tunning issues like I first thought.
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/26/14 12:06 AM
Quote:
I am using stock non MDS lifters that are gutted and had a solid roller grind cam made for it.
Also I do have the Harland Sharps that are not cheap
Alex The FAST XFI is great now that the motor is happy. I had so many issues with the HYD roller cam and non ADJ rockers valve springs push rods etc... that I had motor issues not EFI tunning issues like I first thought.
Good to hear, what magic is there in your lifters?
Also, what is the static and dynamic compression?
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/26/14 01:56 AM
Quote:
I am using stock non MDS lifters that are gutted and had a solid roller grind cam made for it.
Also I do have the Harland Sharps that are not cheap
Alex The FAST XFI is great now that the motor is happy. I had so many issues with the HYD roller cam and non ADJ rockers valve springs push rods etc... that I had motor issues not EFI tunning issues like I first thought.
Spring pressures collapsing the lifters making it run poorly? Mine seems to do that for a few minutes
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/26/14 05:31 AM
I just saw this....
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/26/14 05:33 AM
Quote:
I am using stock non MDS lifters that are gutted and had a solid roller grind cam made for it.
Also I do have the Harland Sharps that are not cheap
Alex The FAST XFI is great now that the motor is happy. I had so many issues with the HYD roller cam and non ADJ rockers valve springs push rods etc... that I had motor issues not EFI tunning issues like I first thought.
Gutted and fitted with a custom spacer? I guess going solid roller required the use of those Harland Sharp rockers also?
What weight is your car running those times at?...very impressive Rick!
Posted By: BBR
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/26/14 06:13 AM
This is my favorite thread evaaarrrrr.
Posted By: Quickrunner
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/26/14 01:54 PM
Soaking all this in like a sponge as I am in the planning and parts gathering stage of my Gen3 build. Keep the info coming! Rick did Barton modify your lifters?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/26/14 03:45 PM
Hurry while the blocks are still available!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/26/14 04:02 PM
On a 5.7 or a 6.1.. is there certain year blocks that
are better than others... as in I'm looking at a 2005
5.7 thats suppose to be a running engine
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/26/14 05:27 PM
Quote:
On a 5.7 or a 6.1.. is there certain year blocks that
are better than others... as in I'm looking at a 2005
5.7 thats suppose to be a running engine
No, they're all the same. I'd run a 5.7 block in a really high hp application over a 6.1. Just do a partial fill and run a really good oil cooler.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/26/14 05:30 PM
Any year 6.1 is a win. I have read the early 03-04 5.7 block were thicker walled. An 05 5.7 is as good as any other 5.7 but it also has the benefit of no plug wires and no mds coming from a truck.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/26/14 05:39 PM
Quote:
Any year 6.1 is a win. I have read the early 03-04 5.7 block were thicker walled. An 05 5.7 is as good as any other 5.7 but it also has the benefit of no plug wires and no mds coming from a truck.
This engine is coming out of a truck so MAYBE I should
continue to look... what does it take to kill
the MDS... to my understanding the lifters have a
slot in them for the solenoid to push something in
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/26/14 05:42 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Any year 6.1 is a win. I have read the early 03-04 5.7 block were thicker walled. An 05 5.7 is as good as any other 5.7 but it also has the benefit of no plug wires and no mds coming from a truck.
This engine is coming out of a truck so MAYBE I should
continue to look... what does it take to kill
the MDS... to my understanding the lifters have a
slot in them for the solenoid to push something in
You just need 4 MDS delete plugs from a 6.1 or HD 5.7. If you leave the solenoid in the block but unplugged, it will do weird things. Use the plugs and be done.
Posted By: Triple Threat
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/26/14 05:50 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Any year 6.1 is a win. I have read the early 03-04 5.7 block were thicker walled. An 05 5.7 is as good as any other 5.7 but it also has the benefit of no plug wires and no mds coming from a truck.
This engine is coming out of a truck so MAYBE I should
continue to look... what does it take to kill
the MDS... to my understanding the lifters have a
slot in them for the solenoid to push something in
05 5.7 from a truck shouldn't have MDS, so the one you found is what you want.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/26/14 09:56 PM
^^^^ that's what I thought I said lol....
Posted By: Charger453
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/26/14 11:16 PM
The look of the later engines with no plug wires is definitely cleaner. What's needed to change to them? Just the later coils and the connectors?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/26/14 11:24 PM
05-08 valve covers too.
Posted By: Charger453
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/26/14 11:35 PM
Sounds easy enough. Thanks.
Posted By: headhunter
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/28/14 04:30 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Don't get me wrong, the DP intake isn't anything fancy. It' a compromised intake that in basic design, a carb intake.
That being said, I'd only use one on a 426+ CI motor, 240+ @.050 camshaft, 12:1 compression on 93, 2" headers with heads like my eagles. That would be over 550rwhp from a streetable combination, and it would be perfect to run a 250+shot on.
As a matter of fact, that just may be what I build next...but with the shorter intake. It would be way less trouble than the forced induction on my car.
sounds like mine except the comp
what valve covers are you running?
Posted By: Moparmal
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/28/14 11:15 AM
Mines not really a " build" -
Factory 6.1 crate
SRTMAXPLUS cam 218/227 566/556
Indy modman
Dual 500 Eddies
PSI 1511 springs
Carter 120gph fuel pump
MSD 6013 ignition pack
Alloy radiator, overflow and puke tank
Factory coils, plugs
Fwiw...I had horrendous issues getting a decent fuel distribution and pump shot to get the car to launch clean.
Pretty much fixed it by using a plenum divider - but next time Id run the Edelbrock DP dual quad intake or a blower
Posted By: justinp61
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/28/14 01:32 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I am using stock non MDS lifters that are gutted and had a solid roller grind cam made for it.
Also I do have the Harland Sharps that are not cheap
Alex The FAST XFI is great now that the motor is happy. I had so many issues with the HYD roller cam and non ADJ rockers valve springs push rods etc... that I had motor issues not EFI tunning issues like I first thought.
Good to hear, what magic is there in your lifters?
Also, what is the static and dynamic compression?
Crickets chirping 
.
Posted By: EV2CUDA
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/28/14 09:05 PM
What is the answer to prevent crank bearing failure?
Posted By: 340RICK
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/28/14 09:22 PM
Ok guys David Barton did my lifters. I was at his shop and he took them apart while I was there. There is really not much inside them. He told me sometimes he will put the spring back in the lifter sometimes no. I believe mine have nothing in them No spacers shims etc. I have a few sets of lifters I will try and take some apart and get some pics to share.
Not sure on my compression but cranking compression is 240 PSI
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/28/14 09:34 PM
Quote:
What is the answer to prevent crank bearing failure?
what setup are you running that is having bearing failure?
Posted By: EV2CUDA
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/28/14 09:41 PM
A previous post talked about oiling issues. I have a couple stock 5.7 engines with spun bearings. I have not inspected. But for $100 they were a good deal. 05 5.7's.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/28/14 09:58 PM
There has, and IMO opinion it has something to do with the crossdrilling of stock 5.7 cranks. The fellow that was having issues with a circle track engine put in an aftermarket crank and has been having success ever since IIRC. This issue has not reared its ugly head to my knowledge in the LX community with guys turning 7K with 6.1's or newer Eagle 5.7's. Also there is an emptying of the pan issue that happens at 7k + rpm that has been mentioned and the FS drag paks are all running 10qt pans because of this it seems.
Posted By: justinp61
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/28/14 10:19 PM
Quote:
Not sure on my compression but cranking compression is 240 PSI
Thanks .
Posted By: CHAPPER
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/29/14 02:55 AM
Quote:
There has, and IMO opinion it has something to do with the crossdrilling of stock 5.7 cranks. The fellow that was having issues with a circle track engine put in an aftermarket crank and has been having success ever since IIRC. This issue has not reared its ugly head to my knowledge in the LX community with guys turning 7K with 6.1's or newer Eagle 5.7's. Also there is an emptying of the pan issue that happens at 7k + rpm that has been mentioned and the FS drag paks are all running 10qt pans because of this it seems.
I am the one that had the oiling problems with a circle track build. My computer is down right now, and I don't have any pics on this lap top, but if you google/search "Gen 3 Hemi on dirt.." some of the pics will be there. The custom built pan holds 11 quarts. A Molnar rotating assembly cured all my headaches!!
Posted By: uncledon
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/29/14 06:39 AM
getting ready to do this swap in the next few weeks/months in my 67 coronet. 5.7 hemi out of a 04 Durango. indy modman intake, will have a special built carb, using my original 904 trans, msd6 for spark. right now its stock motor making around 350hp maybe with intake and carb..??? dunno. I plan to swap a cam and springs, before dropping it in. so looooooving this thread... and I will add to it as time go's on. I also have a hemi build thread going over on the b-body board.
Posted By: BBR
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/29/14 04:01 PM
Quote:
Not sure on my compression but cranking compression is 240 PSI
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
holy cow
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/29/14 06:57 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Not sure on my compression but cranking compression is 240 PSI
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
holy cow
A stock 5.7 is almost 200.
These motors don't mind compression at all. You can run high-ish compression and an aggressive timing curve on 93 without issue.
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/29/14 07:13 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Don't get me wrong, the DP intake isn't anything fancy. It' a compromised intake that in basic design, a carb intake.
That being said, I'd only use one on a 426+ CI motor, 240+ @.050 camshaft, 12:1 compression on 93, 2" headers with heads like my eagles. That would be over 550rwhp from a streetable combination, and it would be perfect to run a 250+shot on.
As a matter of fact, that just may be what I build next...but with the shorter intake. It would be way less trouble than the forced induction on my car.
sounds like mine except the comp
what valve covers are you running?
Indy
Posted By: WO23Coronet
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/29/14 10:25 PM
Has anyone used one of these to convert a VVT HEMI to use a standard cam?
http://m.ebay.com/itm/131309571355?nav=SEARCH
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/29/14 10:33 PM
Quote:
Has anyone used one of these to convert a VVT HEMI to use a standard cam?
http://m.ebay.com/itm/131309571355?nav=SEARCH
There is a phaser eliminator kit from comp cams and one tuner that I spoke with said that its as simple as swapping to an older cam and crank sensor if you wanted to run it on aftermarket efi.
If you go with a factory computer from Hotwire, you can keep the VVT and variable intake manifold.
Posted By: Moparmal
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/29/14 10:50 PM
Quote:
getting ready to do this swap in the next few weeks/months in my 67 coronet. 5.7 hemi out of a 04 Durango. indy modman intake, will have a special built carb, using my original 904 trans, msd6 for spark. right now its stock motor making around 350hp maybe with intake and carb..??? dunno. I plan to swap a cam and springs, before dropping it in. so looooooving this thread... and I will add to it as time go's on. I also have a hemi build thread going over on the b-body board.
So far no one I know of has had success in getting decent fuel distribution using a single carb on a Modman - Even Indy made 40hp more running dual quads in a Mopar Muscle article!
Look forward to hearing how your 'special carb' pans out - most of us have had to cover the poor low end flow by using a big 'tip in' ...and even then the manifold seems to demand a big AF volume at the high end - a lot like a tunnel ram.
Posted By: headhunter
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/30/14 03:03 AM
the special carb deal is the carb is being built by one of the best carberator guys in the country and tuned by him on the motor on a dyno that's what is meant by the special carb
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 09/30/14 10:14 PM
Posted By: MattW
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 12:01 AM
Quote:
Has anyone used one of these to convert a VVT HEMI to use a standard cam?
http://m.ebay.com/itm/131309571355?nav=SEARCH
That the same ones that run the early Hemi with a GM delphi computer.
Matt
Posted By: Moparmal
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 01:07 AM
Quote:
the special carb deal is the carb is being built by one of the best carberator guys in the country and tuned by him on the motor on a dyno that's what is meant by the special carb
Be sure and post an let us know how the tuning works out - it would be great if someone got onto an effective way of running a single carb.
Posted By: headhunter
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 01:27 AM
im hopeing he can do something on mine as well even tho its a csu carb
Posted By: headhunter
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 01:29 AM
Posted By: 1badx
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 04:53 PM
Just some comments after reading this thread that may be helpful. Not trying to be a "know it all", just sharing what I have experienced.
- The Apache heads will fit on a 5.7 block
- Another alternative for good heads is Thitek
- The 5.7 block is a cheaper and more readily available alternative.
- If using a truck 5.7 block you will need to account for the different dipstick location and if using a pan with a dipstick tube you will need to plug the dipstick tube hole in the truck block.
- If using a 5.7 truck block and a 6.1 timing cover and AC you will need to drill and tap 2 holes for the AC bolts in the block.
- To delete MDS just replace the lifters. You can leave the MDS components in place - no need for plugs.
- These engines do not like a lot of timing so be careful.
- Stick with fuel injection and a 6.1 intake for most applications.
- NA or forced induction they can make a decent and reliable HP#
We have a 3700# car, NA, 430ci going 10.0 in the heat and should nick 9's shortly.
We also have a 5300# Jeep, turbo, 370ci going high 9's and daily driven.
These engines are impressive and I can't wait to see when someone really starts pushing them!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 05:19 PM
Quote:
Ok guys David Barton did my lifters. I was at his shop and he took them apart while I was there. There is really not much inside them. He told me sometimes he will put the spring back in the lifter sometimes no. I believe mine have nothing in them No spacers shims etc. I have a few sets of lifters I will try and take some apart and get some pics to share.
Not sure on my compression but cranking compression is 240 PSI
Rick.... you have 240 cranking pressure and you run
PUMP GAS... I would never have thought that... I know
the timing is a lot less with the gen 3 but damn thats
a lot of cranking pressure.... sure opens my mind up
on this engine
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 09:23 PM
they're here
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 09:25 PM
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 09:53 PM
Quote:
Just some comments after reading this thread that may be helpful. Not trying to be a "know it all", just sharing what I have experienced.
We have a 3700# car, NA, 430ci going 10.0 in the heat and should nick 9's shortly.
if you don't mind, what is the gear and converter combo your running?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 09:54 PM
Ray.. which head is that... and if you dont mind..
what kind of price and is that ported or stock form
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 10:00 PM
stock 6.4 head. was just on sale for $470+$150 core charge each
they are still on sale. I was told they are going thru a part number change that is why the great price
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 10:14 PM
Awesome Ray! I bit the bullet and am going with Mean Street 6.1's for now. My cam and piston combo made Apaches too much of a roll of the dice. I think my 8 3/4 will thank me later anyway....
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 10:14 PM
Quote:
stock 6.4 head. was just on sale for $470+$150 core charge each
they are still on sale. I was told they are going thru a part number change that is why the great price
Is that assembled just like you show there..
any idea what they flow as is
Posted By: headhunter
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 10:15 PM
Are they better than a 5.7 or 6.1 head?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 10:15 PM
Quote:
Quote:
stock 6.4 head. was just on sale for $470+$150 core charge each
they are still on sale. I was told they are going thru a part number change that is why the great price
Is that assembled just like you show there..
any idea what they flow as is
Ive seen 340cfm at .600 and .700 reported on them OOTB.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 10:20 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
stock 6.4 head. was just on sale for $470+$150 core charge each
they are still on sale. I was told they are going thru a part number change that is why the great price
Is that assembled just like you show there..
any idea what they flow as is
Ive seen 340cfm at .600 and .700 reported on them OOTB.
Thats pretty nice for OOTB heads... hows the exhaust
side of these...I'm about 90% sure I'll be going turbo
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 10:23 PM
Quote:
Just some comments after reading this thread that may be helpful. Not trying to be a "know it all", just sharing what I have experienced.
- The Apache heads will fit on a 5.7 block
- Another alternative for good heads is Thitek
- The 5.7 block is a cheaper and more readily available alternative.
- If using a truck 5.7 block you will need to account for the different dipstick location and if using a pan with a dipstick tube you will need to plug the dipstick tube hole in the truck block.
- If using a 5.7 truck block and a 6.1 timing cover and AC you will need to drill and tap 2 holes for the AC bolts in the block.
- To delete MDS just replace the lifters. You can leave the MDS components in place - no need for plugs.
- These engines do not like a lot of timing so be careful.
- Stick with fuel injection and a 6.1 intake for most applications.
- NA or forced induction they can make a decent and reliable HP#
We have a 3700# car, NA, 430ci going 10.0 in the heat and should nick 9's shortly.
We also have a 5300# Jeep, turbo, 370ci going high 9's and daily driven.
These engines are impressive and I can't wait to see when someone really starts pushing them!
What kind of changes are necessary for the 6.4 heads to work on the 5.7 bore? Just a notch of the bore? Special piston valve reliefs? Would like to jump on a set of 6.4 heads if they can be used on a 5.7 block efficiently...if they are a waste on a bore that small, or not worth the work, then I am just going to pass.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/01/14 10:27 PM
I wouldnt use these on a 5.7 block personally. How much power are you shooting for? The best head for all out turbo use IMO would be the Thitek's because of the thicker decks and better quality of material across the board. In a turbo application I think you would run out of sealing with any stock head before the Apaches would show a distinct power advantage.
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 12:22 AM
Quote:
I wouldnt use these on a 5.7 block personally. How much power are you shooting for? The best head for all out turbo use IMO would be the Thitek's because of the thicker decks and better quality of material across the board. In a turbo application I think you would run out of sealing with any stock head before the Apaches would show a distinct power advantage.
However much power stock parts can handle lol...I have no interest in building a G3 hemi to only go and spend coin on Thitek heads. To me, the appeal of the hemi is how well the stock heads flow, both as cast and ported. Combine that with a good bottom end, and I can't see why 8-900hp isn't attainable.
I do want to stay 5.7 for blocks because of cost and availability....If the 6.4 head is really no good on that bore size, I will save my cash and put some work in to the stock 5.7 heads
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 12:52 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I wouldnt use these on a 5.7 block personally. How much power are you shooting for? The best head for all out turbo use IMO would be the Thitek's because of the thicker decks and better quality of material across the board. In a turbo application I think you would run out of sealing with any stock head before the Apaches would show a distinct power advantage.
However much power stock parts can handle lol...I have no interest in building a G3 hemi to only go and spend coin on Thitek heads. To me, the appeal of the hemi is how well the stock heads flow, both as cast and ported. Combine that with a good bottom end, and I can't see why 8-900hp isn't attainable.
I do want to stay 5.7 for blocks because of cost and availability....If the 6.4 head is really no good on that bore size, I will save my cash and put some work in to the stock 5.7 heads
I was replying to Mr.P. I'm not gonna tell someone to not try something without having done it myself. Will the Apache bolt on to a 5.7? Hell yes. Will you need a bore notch? I know I have read that you do. So what, for the price of these heads it is probably worth it compared to no heads at all im sure. They do need an intake that can be opened to their huge ports though. People have said the smaller heads have better velocity but at 8000rpm I bet it evens out.
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 12:57 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I wouldnt use these on a 5.7 block personally. How much power are you shooting for? The best head for all out turbo use IMO would be the Thitek's because of the thicker decks and better quality of material across the board. In a turbo application I think you would run out of sealing with any stock head before the Apaches would show a distinct power advantage.
However much power stock parts can handle lol...I have no interest in building a G3 hemi to only go and spend coin on Thitek heads. To me, the appeal of the hemi is how well the stock heads flow, both as cast and ported. Combine that with a good bottom end, and I can't see why 8-900hp isn't attainable.
I do want to stay 5.7 for blocks because of cost and availability....If the 6.4 head is really no good on that bore size, I will save my cash and put some work in to the stock 5.7 heads
I was replying to Mr.P. I'm not gonna tell someone to not try something without having done it myself. Will the Apache bolt on to a 5.7? Hell yes. Will you need a bore notch? I know I have read that you do. So what, for the price of these heads it is probably worth it compared to no heads at all im sure. They do need an intake that can be opened to their huge ports though. People have said the smaller heads have better velocity but at 8000rpm I bet it evens out.
Sorry, I assumed you were responding to me since there was no quote and it was right after my post....you make a good point about the Apache's though... 
Posted By: mcat4321
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 01:46 AM
On my build I have a stock 2005 shortblock I have a stock set of 2009 Eagle heads. I use the eagle injectors and. intake. I got .075 head. Gaskets with proper push rods. All these parts I got off ebay and know nothing about.... completely stock stuff. I am using an HHP phase 3 naturally aspirated camshaft I have an aftermarket 85 mm throttle body and I am using a mega squirt from EFI source professionally tuned. I am fairly certain the valve springs and lifters are s*** during Drag Week I ran 12.11@ hi 112 mph in the quarter mile I was getting about 17 mpg all of this in my 3100 pound and my 1968 Barracuda I have a 373 gear and a 27 inch tall drag radial full exhaust the converter stalls at 3100 rpm I think the lifters and valve springs are holding it back for now it revs really weak. I am still playing with timing and shift rpms I'm really not happy with this performance so far
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 02:00 AM
What lifters and springs are you using? I hope I dont encounter the same problems. I have a set of Manley Nextek springs and a set of lifters out of a 6.1 with about 35K on them.
Posted By: 1badx
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 02:02 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Just some comments after reading this thread that may be helpful. Not trying to be a "know it all", just sharing what I have experienced.
We have a 3700# car, NA, 430ci going 10.0 in the heat and should nick 9's shortly.
if you don't mind, what is the gear and converter combo your running?
The rear gear in the 10.0 car is 3.06 with a 28" tire. Converter flashes around 4000. Car 1.40 60's and is trapping at 135.
To use the Apache heads you will need pistons with valve relief, valve covers and pushrods.
As far as running these on a 5.7 it depends on your power goals. When we had the quickest 5.7 in the MSHS series we were running the Apaches with good results.
Posted By: mcat4321
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 02:08 AM
Quote:
What lifters and springs are you using? I hope I dont encounter the same problems. I have a set of Manley Nextek springs and a set of lifters out of a 6.1 with about 35K on them.
stock oem i know nothing about...other than cam and TB these are junkyard parts
Posted By: 1badx
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 02:15 AM
Quote:
However much power stock parts can handle lol...I have no interest in building a G3 hemi to only go and spend coin on Thitek heads. To me, the appeal of the hemi is how well the stock heads flow, both as cast and ported. Combine that with a good bottom end, and I can't see why 8-900hp isn't attainable.
I do want to stay 5.7 for blocks because of cost and availability....If the 6.4 head is really no good on that bore size, I will save my cash and put some work in to the stock 5.7 heads
Don't wast your time or money on the stock 5.7 heads. The Apaches are relatively inexpensive and will work on the 5.7 with the proper pistons.
You are going to have a really difficult time getting 8-900 wheel HP out of a 5.7 w/5.7 heads (even with serious head work). I really don't think you will be able to hit that number.
If you can't afford the Apaches try to find a set of 6.1 heads. We made 750-790whp on a completely stock 6.1 at 18psi on C85 - but that is really on the bleeding edge and wouldn't have lasted long.
As far as heads holding - the stock 6.1 mentioned above didn't come apart until 25psi and the factory heads w/factory head bolts and gaskets showed no signs of lifting. The failure appeared to be the stock rod bolts. Again, this is bleeding edge and only an experiment to see what a stock 6.1 could handle. That engine at 14psi powered the Jeep to a 10.7@130 in Bowling Green - making it the quickest completely stock block Jeep on record.
Buy a set of 6.1 heads used ($900?) and freshen them up. Build a forged bottom or at least a 6.1 crank ($150) and some good rods and pistons. Have PWR spec you a turbo cam and put an 80mm on it. Then you will hit your whp number.
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 02:31 AM
Quote:
Quote:
However much power stock parts can handle lol...I have no interest in building a G3 hemi to only go and spend coin on Thitek heads. To me, the appeal of the hemi is how well the stock heads flow, both as cast and ported. Combine that with a good bottom end, and I can't see why 8-900hp isn't attainable.
I do want to stay 5.7 for blocks because of cost and availability....If the 6.4 head is really no good on that bore size, I will save my cash and put some work in to the stock 5.7 heads
Don't wast your time or money on the stock 5.7 heads. The Apaches are relatively inexpensive and will work on the 5.7 with the proper pistons.
You are going to have a really difficult time getting 8-900 wheel HP out of a 5.7 w/5.7 heads (even with serious head work). I really don't think you will be able to hit that number.
If you can't afford the Apaches try to find a set of 6.1 heads. We made 750-790whp on a completely stock 6.1 at 18psi on C85 - but that is really on the bleeding edge and wouldn't have lasted long.
As far as heads holding - the stock 6.1 mentioned above didn't come apart until 25psi and the factory heads w/factory head bolts and gaskets showed no signs of lifting. The failure appeared to be the stock rod bolts. Again, this is bleeding edge and only an experiment to see what a stock 6.1 could handle. That engine at 14psi powered the Jeep to a [Email]10.7@130[/Email] in Bowling Green - making it the quickest completely stock block Jeep on record.
Buy a set of 6.1 heads used ($900?) and freshen them up. Build a forged bottom or at least a 6.1 crank ($150) and some good rods and pistons. Have PWR spec you a turbo cam and put an 80mm on it. Then you will hit your whp number.
Will the Apache heads work with just a valvespring, retainer, lock swap, or do they need new valves also to run in higher hp applications?
What about the 5.7 eagle heads? I figure with enough boost per ci, 800hp should be a number not too difficult to attain.
Are the pistons necessary for the Apaches on a 5.7 expensive custom pieces, or are they becoming an "off the shelf" deal as of late?
With the deal on the 6.4 heads right now, I want to pull the trigger...I just want to know that they will be worth it knowing that almost indefinitely they will be going on a 5.7
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 03:27 AM
Was it the 5.7 in the trucks that had the mds or is
it the cars... sure is pretty hard to find a 6.1
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 03:49 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Just some comments after reading this thread that may be helpful. Not trying to be a "know it all", just sharing what I have experienced.
We have a 3700# car, NA, 430ci going 10.0 in the heat and should nick 9's shortly.
if you don't mind, what is the gear and converter combo your running?
The rear gear in the 10.0 car is 3.06 with a 28" tire. Converter flashes around 4000. Car 1.40 60's and is trapping at 135.
To use the Apache heads you will need pistons with valve relief, valve covers and pushrods.
As far as running these on a 5.7 it depends on your power goals. When we had the quickest 5.7 in the MSHS series we were running the Apaches with good results.
Well, that sucks, my car is a damn turd 
Posted By: Bad340fish
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 03:50 AM
What first gear ratio with those 3.06 gears?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 04:25 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Just some comments after reading this thread that may be helpful. Not trying to be a "know it all", just sharing what I have experienced.
We have a 3700# car, NA, 430ci going 10.0 in the heat and should nick 9's shortly.
if you don't mind, what is the gear and converter combo your running?
The rear gear in the 10.0 car is 3.06 with a 28" tire. Converter flashes around 4000. Car 1.40 60's and is trapping at 135.
To use the Apache heads you will need pistons with valve relief, valve covers and pushrods.
As far as running these on a 5.7 it depends on your power goals. When we had the quickest 5.7 in the MSHS series we were running the Apaches with good results.
I could've swore Andy said the 5.7 needed a bore notch? I wanted to run a set of Apaches but I took a stock 6.1 valve and set it in my Manley piston valve notch, it is barely adequate for even the 2.08 valve.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 04:27 AM
Quote:
What first gear ratio with those 3.06 gears?
NAG1's have a 3.59 1st according to google.
Posted By: Twostick
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 05:08 AM
Quote:
Was it the 5.7 in the trucks that had the mds or is
it the cars... sure is pretty hard to find a 6.1
Trucks got MDS in '06. 5.7 MDS started in '05 in cars. No MDS in 6.1 AFAIK.
Kevin
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 05:37 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Was it the 5.7 in the trucks that had the mds or is
it the cars... sure is pretty hard to find a 6.1
Trucks got MDS in '06. 5.7 MDS started in '05 in cars. No MDS in 6.1 AFAIK.
Kevin
Thanks... it looks like I'm gonna have to go with
this truck 5.7 I've been looking at... cant even find
any 6.1s in the area... bummer.... anyone know of
any complete 6.1s within a reasonable distance from
Detroit... been mainly looking at Craigslist
Posted By: Twostick
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 05:58 AM
Here's 4 but probably overkill for your intended purpose.
Nigel is a member here.
http://nationalmoparts.com/c-body-parts?...category_id=447Kevin
Posted By: WO23Coronet
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 06:25 AM
Look on the LXForums, they pop up on there quite often, was a long block 6.1 with low miles for $3500 recently
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 06:27 AM
Quote:
Here's 4 but probably overkill for your intended purpose.
Nigel is a member here.
http://nationalmoparts.com/c-body-parts?...category_id=447
Kevin
Yeah thats way more than I plan on paying... hell
I can get a used 6.1 supercharged for less than that
but who knows what kind of shape its in... but thanks
Posted By: 1badx
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 02:00 PM
Quote:
Well, that sucks, my car is a damn turd
If I read correctly you said you've only been to the track once and your car went 10.0? What MPH? What was your 60'?
Depending on the compression your getting with those heads and pistons I would think at your weight you should be in the high 9's but if your compression is low enough then maybe not.
I'm not familiar enough with your intake/induction as far as track testing to make a call on that.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 02:16 PM
I'm still trying to get a feeling on these gen 3s...
what kind of compression are most running.. both N/A
and boosted... from what Rick said on his, I have a
feeling a person can go pretty damn high on pump fuel
Posted By: justinp61
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 02:30 PM
So, if I find a 6.1 block I can run 6.4 heads with no issues?
Posted By: Quickrunner
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 03:23 PM
This thread is awesome! I just picked up a set of Arrington cnc ported eagle heads with the valve size upgraded and new Manley valves, and a 2012 low mike 5.7 block off a member here to get the ball rolling. Planing on quality forged bottom end to handle boost from a Large F1 or maybe even a F2 procharger. Plan on blowing it in through a modified 6.1 intake so I can keep it under the hood. Wanting an 8.?? at 150 plus time slip to frame!! Will be in a purpose built 71 demon.
Posted By: 1badx
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 06:03 PM
Quote:
So, if I find a 6.1 block I can run 6.4 heads with no issues?
Yes!
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 06:07 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Well, that sucks, my car is a damn turd
If I read correctly you said you've only been to the track once and your car went 10.0? What MPH? What was your 60'?
Depending on the compression your getting with those heads and pistons I would think at your weight you should be in the high 9's but if your compression is low enough then maybe not.
I'm not familiar enough with your intake/induction as far as track testing to make a call on that.
I have only been once. I use to be able to go a lot years ago, but I just don't get to go as much anymore.
I was thinking my problems are just the gear in my car.
I would like to hear the motor combo of the 3700 lb car about to go 9s
Posted By: 1badx
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 06:09 PM
Quote:
I'm still trying to get a feeling on these gen 3s...
what kind of compression are most running.. both N/A
and boosted... from what Rick said on his, I have a
feeling a person can go pretty damn high on pump fuel
I love Rick's car and combo! Without a doubt he would be your best reference for GenIII in these older Mopars. He's out there motoring down the track, cracking off 9's and the car looks and sounds awesome.
As far as compression - on my Jeep I run approximately 10:1 and the 10.0 car runs just over 15:1 with the current head gasket. It will make 16:1 with a thinner gasket.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 06:14 PM
This pic is of a stock replacement 6.4 piston from Manley
http://www.southeastrt.net/images/597400-main.jpgThis is a pic of my Manley's which must be an older design.
Posted By: 1badx
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 06:18 PM
Quote:
I have only been once. I use to be able to go a lot years ago, but I just don't get to go as much anymore.
I was thinking my problems are just the gear in my car.
I would like to hear the motor combo of the 3700 lb car about to go 9s
430ci, 15:1 compression, Thitek heads, Thitek ported 6.1 intake, 90mm throttle body, PWR designed cam, NAG1 trans, 4000rpm flash converter, 3.06 gear, trans brake, 28" MT ET Streets, custom tuning on our dyno and at the track. Car has run many types of fuel - E85, C16, Q16, C45 - it seems to like the Q16 and C45 the best. The best thing is that this is a 4 door former cop car with a column shift!
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 06:23 PM
Ray if my 6.1 makes in the neighborhood of what yours does im gonna be as happy as Ronald fkn McDonald.
Posted By: 1badx
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 06:25 PM
Quote:
This pic is of a stock replacement 6.4 piston from Manley
http://www.southeastrt.net/images/597400-main.jpg
This is a pic of my Manley's which must be an older design.
Nice! I love the thicker ring land!
Here's mine installed in my 5.7 block:
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 07:31 PM
mine
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 07:43 PM
piston on the left was designed by Arrington for boost in 2006 made by JE. the piston on the right are my new ones from Diamond
Posted By: Quickrunner
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 07:54 PM
Quote:
Quote:
This pic is of a stock replacement 6.4 piston from Manley
http://www.southeastrt.net/images/597400-main.jpg
This is a pic of my Manley's which must be an older design.
Nice! I love the thicker ring land!
Here's mine installed in my 5.7 block:
30 psi? Turbo or blower? Would love to hear about this motor...
Posted By: BBR
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 08:05 PM
Quote:
mine
Ray what is your static compression?
I'm guessing right at 11.0:1?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 08:56 PM
Quote:
Quote:
This pic is of a stock replacement 6.4 piston from Manley
http://www.southeastrt.net/images/597400-main.jpg
This is a pic of my Manley's which must be an older design.
Nice! I love the thicker ring land!
Here's mine installed in my 5.7 block:
Looks bad to the bone Mike, the pics I brought up to show mainly the difference in valve reliefs between the 6.4 Manleys, my 6.1 Manleys, Ray's Diamonds and also your 5.7 pistons. Mine are pretty conservative valve reliefs in comparison.
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 09:07 PM
Quote:
Quote:
mine
Ray what is your static compression?
I'm guessing right at 11.0:1?
it is. with the Apache head it will drop to 10
Posted By: 1badx
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 09:10 PM
Quote:
30 psi? Turbo or blower? Would love to hear about this motor...
Only 18-20 psi so far:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=551...e=2&theater
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 09:10 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
mine
Ray what is your static compression?
I'm guessing right at 11.0:1?
it is. with the Apache head it will drop to 10
maybe I can get it into the 9s on 87 
Posted By: GTS340
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 09:12 PM
Quote:
Just some comments after reading this thread that may be helpful. Not trying to be a "know it all", just sharing what I have experienced.
- The Apache heads will fit on a 5.7 block
- Another alternative for good heads is Thitek
- The 5.7 block is a cheaper and more readily available alternative.
- If using a truck 5.7 block you will need to account for the different dipstick location and if using a pan with a dipstick tube you will need to plug the dipstick tube hole in the truck block.
- If using a 5.7 truck block and a 6.1 timing cover and AC you will need to drill and tap 2 holes for the AC bolts in the block.
- To delete MDS just replace the lifters. You can leave the MDS components in place - no need for plugs.
- These engines do not like a lot of timing so be careful.
- Stick with fuel injection and a 6.1 intake for most applications.
- NA or forced induction they can make a decent and reliable HP#
We have a 3700# car, NA, 430ci going 10.0 in the heat and should nick 9's shortly.
We also have a 5300# Jeep, turbo, 370ci going high 9's and daily driven.
These engines are impressive and I can't wait to see when someone really starts pushing them!
So what all is involved other than valve clearance pistons when fitting Apaches on a 5.7 block? Bore notch?
Posted By: STEFF
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 09:41 PM
My static compression is 11.6:1. and I run pump 93. Don't know what cranking psi is. Never checked it....
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 10:26 PM
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 11:28 PM
Couple of tech questions
How thick is the 6.1 head gasket
How much lift can the stock springs handle on the 6.4 head?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 11:56 PM
I think stock gasket thickness is .036 compressed.
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/02/14 11:57 PM
Just flowed my 6.4 head
.2 168
.3. 242
.4. 287
.5. 318
.6. 330
5.7 eagle head on my bench
.2. 144
.3. 220
.4. 275
.5. 300
.6. 300
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 12:17 AM
The .300 and .400 flows are what get me almost more than the peaks.
Posted By: BBR
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 01:07 AM
With all this good info, I can't decide if I want to build a NA motor or hang a 76mm-80mm turbo on one!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Dave_S
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 01:12 AM
What was the part number on the box those 6.4 heads came in?
Thanks
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 01:28 AM
Quote:
What was the part number on the box those 6.4 heads came in?
Thanks
68086555AA
68086556AA
I have 2 small turbos, and with the bigger chamber on the 6.4 heads, I'm thinking its probably time to just do it
Posted By: Dave_S
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 01:54 AM
those are $775 each plus core up here!
And I work at a dealer!
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 02:04 AM
Quote:
those are $775 each plus core up here! And I work at a dealer!
www.rtpartsco.com
Put in 2013 dodge charger, goto engine, goto cylinder heads
There they are
Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 02:06 AM
One of the most informative threads in a long time.. Keep it up..
Chris..
Posted By: WO23Coronet
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 03:25 AM
Quote:
Quote:
This pic is of a stock replacement 6.4 piston from Manley
http://www.southeastrt.net/images/597400-main.jpg
This is a pic of my Manley's which must be an older design.
Nice! I love the thicker ring land!
Here's mine installed in my 5.7 block:
Are these 6.4 pistons in a 5.7 block?
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 03:52 AM
A 2.16 ls valve in my valve relief
Posted By: Dragula
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 04:06 AM
Just curious how much boost could you put to one of these reliably with an after market rotating assembly...
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 04:49 AM
Quote:
A 2.16 ls valve in my valve relief
yeah dont remind me Ray. My pistons were probably made before Apaches even existed. It's all good, its going in a Road Course car. But I would love to lay down a 10.99 or quicker after bolting the 28x12.5x15 ET Streets I have in the shed.p
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 04:58 AM
Quote:
Quote:
A 2.16 ls valve in my valve relief
yeah dont remind me Ray. My pistons were probably made before Apaches even existed. It's all good, its going in a Road Course car. But I would love to lay down a 10.99 or quicker after bolting the 28x12.5x15 ET Streets I have in the shed.p
I think you can rent a cutter from isky if needed
Posted By: 1badx
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 04:59 AM
Quote:
Just curious how much boost could you put to one of these reliably with an after market rotating assembly...
Completely stock 6.1 held 18psi for quite a while but keep in mind I tune quite a few of these, "snuck up" on this tune, checked plugs regularly and do have a dyno to experiment with. I really believe the tune has alot to do with making these engines live and perform.
As far as how much a forged rotating assembly will take - I'm not sure we know that yet. There's been quite a few that I have heard about that gave out at 14+psi but I believe this was due to other issues (i.e. mechanical, bad fuel, overheating, improper tuning). I'm at 18-20 psi with the Jeep right now and have made a full pass at 23psi but was pushing through the converter. So until Joe at ProTorque get's me squared away with a better setup I am stuck here. There are a few others out there that I have tuned in the 18+psi range that are running regularly but really having issues putting the power to the ground. We also have a twin turbo, 6 speed Challenger in the shop right now that makes 1000+whp at 18-19psi (5.7 based 370ci), idles at 650 and is quite as a church mouse until the turbo's come to life - then it's a handful. The trans I believe (and afraid about) is the limiting factor here as well.
To answer the question about the pistons in my 5.7 block - those are aftermarket pistons designed to work with any available head and I am currently running Thitek's w/inconnel exhaust valves.
Posted By: BBR
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 05:50 AM
Quote:
Quote:
those are $775 each plus core up here! And I work at a dealer!
www.rtpartsco.com
Put in 2013 dodge charger, goto engine, goto cylinder heads
There they are
That is a cool site. Do all the heads come with valves, springs, etc or are they bare?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 06:08 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
A 2.16 ls valve in my valve relief
yeah dont remind me Ray. My pistons were probably made before Apaches even existed. It's all good, its going in a Road Course car. But I would love to lay down a 10.99 or quicker after bolting the 28x12.5x15 ET Streets I have in the shed.p
I think you can rent a cutter from isky if needed
rotator is balanced and picking up a set of PWR 6.1 heads today. The Apache ship has left the station on this engine. That 20-30rwhp I could've had will just have to wait for another day. Mine are supposed to flow in the 360-370 range at .600.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 06:10 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Just curious how much boost could you put to one of these reliably with an after market rotating assembly...
Completely stock 6.1 held 18psi for quite a while but keep in mind I tune quite a few of these, "snuck up" on this tune, checked plugs regularly and do have a dyno to experiment with. I really believe the tune has alot to do with making these engines live and perform.
As far as how much a forged rotating assembly will take - I'm not sure we know that yet. There's been quite a few that I have heard about that gave out at 14+psi but I believe this was due to other issues (i.e. mechanical, bad fuel, overheating, improper tuning). I'm at 18-20 psi with the Jeep right now and have made a full pass at 23psi but was pushing through the converter. So until Joe at ProTorque get's me squared away with a better setup I am stuck here. There are a few others out there that I have tuned in the 18+psi range that are running regularly but really having issues putting the power to the ground. We also have a twin turbo, 6 speed Challenger in the shop right now that makes 1000+whp at 18-19psi (5.7 based 370ci), idles at 650 and is quite as a church mouse until the turbo's come to life - then it's a handful. The trans I believe (and afraid about) is the limiting factor here as well.
To answer the question about the pistons in my 5.7 block - those are aftermarket pistons designed to work with any available head and I am currently running Thitek's w/inconnel exhaust valves.
yep is was funny is that video watching him try to get down the track lol.
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 03:41 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
A 2.16 ls valve in my valve relief
yeah dont remind me Ray. My pistons were probably made before Apaches even existed. It's all good, its going in a Road Course car. But I would love to lay down a 10.99 or quicker after bolting the 28x12.5x15 ET Streets I have in the shed.p
I think you can rent a cutter from isky if needed
rotator is balanced and picking up a set of PWR 6.1 heads today. The Apache ship has left the station on this engine. That 20-30rwhp I could've had will just have to wait for another day. Mine are supposed to flow in the 360-370 range at .600.
the 6.1 head does flow very well. I would be happy with what you have
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 03:45 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
those are $775 each plus core up here! And I work at a dealer!
www.rtpartsco.com
Put in 2013 dodge charger, goto engine, goto cylinder heads
There they are
That is a cool site. Do all the heads come with valves, springs, etc or are they bare?
yes,complete! they even have spark plugs! that is where I bought my Eagle heads for $222 each
and now the 6.4 heads for $620 each
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 04:47 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Just curious how much boost could you put to one of these reliably with an after market rotating assembly...
Completely stock 6.1 held 18psi for quite a while but keep in mind I tune quite a few of these, "snuck up" on this tune, checked plugs regularly and do have a dyno to experiment with. I really believe the tune has alot to do with making these engines live and perform.
As far as how much a forged rotating assembly will take - I'm not sure we know that yet. There's been quite a few that I have heard about that gave out at 14+psi but I believe this was due to other issues (i.e. mechanical, bad fuel, overheating, improper tuning). I'm at 18-20 psi with the Jeep right now and have made a full pass at 23psi but was pushing through the converter. So until Joe at ProTorque get's me squared away with a better setup I am stuck here. There are a few others out there that I have tuned in the 18+psi range that are running regularly but really having issues putting the power to the ground. We also have a twin turbo, 6 speed Challenger in the shop right now that makes 1000+whp at 18-19psi (5.7 based 370ci), idles at 650 and is quite as a church mouse until the turbo's come to life - then it's a handful. The trans I believe (and afraid about) is the limiting factor here as well.
To answer the question about the pistons in my 5.7 block - those are aftermarket pistons designed to work with any available head and I am currently running Thitek's w/inconnel exhaust valves.
Mike at that boost level what valvesprings and lifter setup are you using?
Posted By: RTSE4ME
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 06:05 PM
I have a 06 5.7 in my colt project. I would like to build around 550-600 hp N/A stroker engine. Could I use the existing heads? Was thinking of getting the Eagle heads.
Posted By: STEFF
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 06:10 PM
Quote:
I have a 06 5.7 in my colt project. I would like to build around 550-600 hp N/A stroker engine. Could I use the existing heads? Was thinking of getting the Eagle heads.
Cool project and absolutely you can use the existing heads, with some port work.
Posted By: 1badx
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 08:01 PM
Quote:
Mike at that boost level what valvesprings and lifter setup are you using?
Whatever springs Craig put in the head for my cam specs and the stock 6.1 lifters.
Posted By: FastmOp
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/03/14 08:36 PM
6.1 SRT Challenger. TTI's into the stock exhaust. 6psi of Procharger boost, 185* thermostat, Diablo Preditor tuner. It runs about 93 MPH in the 1/8 around a 7.70-80 depending on how it hooks. Not bad for 4300# on 20 inch street tires lol
It's filled up a log book with 124 passes since new ,2010-2014!
24000 miles and is a blast to pick my kids up from school
Posted By: 340RICK
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/04/14 04:07 AM
Great hearing all the different combos
Posted By: 340RICK
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/04/14 04:09 AM
1 more
Posted By: BBR
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/04/14 04:34 AM
I'm beginning to wonder if "pump gas" to you means E85!!!
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/04/14 05:06 AM
Oh my! Rick, they are bad azz. Is that on the shelf or full custom?
Posted By: dodgestrike
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/04/14 09:31 AM
Does anyone have any idea how much boost can the stock 6.4 392 take , power level before the pistons or a rod gives up ? is the block as strong as a 5.7 or is it more like a 6.1 on the sidewalls ? I can pick up one for arround $1,800 from pan to intake , planning on using a 88mm turbo
Posted By: WO23Coronet
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/04/14 02:57 PM
Apparently the 6.4. block is very strong (it's what's in the Hellcat). Stock pistons can't much boost though.
Regardless, if you can get a basically complete 6.4 for $1800 that's about a 1/4 the going rate, BUY IT
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/05/14 05:28 AM
I'd love to know exactly what these weigh. No guessing, if you have weighed one, please share.
Posted By: RV2
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/05/14 04:15 PM
What would be the best 5.7 to buy and use in stock form? With possible modifications in the future
I would probably use a carb on it, this would be going in my 71 valiant
Posted By: 340RICK
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/05/14 05:54 PM
Quote:
Oh my! Rick, they are bad azz. Is that on the shelf or full custom?
Custom pistons
They beauty of FAST EFI I have a different tune I made for street crusing on pump 93
Then tune I have raced the car on is using 110
Posted By: Charger453
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/05/14 07:50 PM
What are the slim possibilities that someone out there has a 4150 Ritter intake that they want to part with? I was just going to do a 6.1 intake but I think a ritter intake with injectors and a TB elbow on top will look more at place and more bad @!!
Posted By: STEFF
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/06/14 12:24 AM
Quote:
What are the slim possibilities that someone out there has a 4150 Ritter intake that they want to part with? I was just going to do a 6.1 intake but I think a ritter intake with injectors and a TB elbow on top will look more at place and more bad @!!
Muscle Motors manufactures the intake Ritter sells. You can get one from them.
Posted By: GTS340
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/06/14 12:34 AM
Quote:
Quote:
What are the slim possibilities that someone out there has a 4150 Ritter intake that they want to part with? I was just going to do a 6.1 intake but I think a ritter intake with injectors and a TB elbow on top will look more at place and more bad @!!
Muscle Motors manufactures the intake Ritter sells. You can get one from them.
Pretty sure it's vice versa. Hughes sells the Ritter intake as well.
Posted By: STEFF
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/06/14 12:55 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
What are the slim possibilities that someone out there has a 4150 Ritter intake that they want to part with? I was just going to do a 6.1 intake but I think a ritter intake with injectors and a TB elbow on top will look more at place and more bad @!!
Muscle Motors manufactures the intake Ritter sells. You can get one from them.
Pretty sure it's vice versa. Hughes sells the Ritter intake as well.
Nope, you are wrong.......Muscle Motors makes it. They borrowed my Drag Pack intake to use as inspiration to create their own.
Posted By: GTS340
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/06/14 01:18 AM
Nope you are wrong.......Muscle Motors makes it. They borrowed my Drag Pack intake to use as inspiration to create their own.
I guess I received erroneous info 
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/06/14 02:11 AM
Posted By: Charger453
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/06/14 03:17 AM
I know where to order one and plan to pretty soon. I was hoping I'd find someone with an abandoned project or change of direction. Slim chance, but worth a shot. I need all the savings I can get. Got a line on a good, low mileage s500 88mm. It'd make some killer power, but I worry about the lag on 370''.
Posted By: BBR
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/06/14 06:11 PM
VVT cam blocks
Any way to retofit earlier cams/timing set into these blocks? IE - anyone developing a kit or parts to do so?
Or are you just totally locked into the 09+ stuff?
Posted By: MattW
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/06/14 07:46 PM
Quote:
Has anyone used one of these to convert a VVT HEMI to use a standard cam?
http://m.ebay.com/itm/131309571355?nav=SEARCH
A 
for the above post.
Posted By: WO23Coronet
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/07/14 05:26 PM
Interesting read on the HellCat
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/hemi/hellcat-deeper.htmlGives valve sizes, cam specs, etc
Posted By: BBR
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/08/14 05:17 PM
Just plopping this quote from Steff in this thread because it pretty much answers my question.
Quote:
[A bearing] Spacer alone will not cut it. The length of the cam is different as well. You'd have to make a snout for the G3 cam to compensate for the difference in length and diameter. Then that snout would have to be pressed onto the G3 cam prior to final journal grinding to make sure all journals are concentric to each other. I've been thru this thought process. I even cosidered machining the front of the block to open up the front of the block like the G3 front is and then spacer the bore for a G3 front cam bearing. The problem with doing that is they redesigned the front cooling passages as well, so with the machining needed, it would blow right into the relocated cooling passages. Then, in order to fix that , you'd have to look at redirecting the coolant in the heads from where these original passaged flowed to. Again, I've been thru all of this thought process and the G4 & G3 blocks are different in front that they require their own specific parts.
This is why I had LSM machine up a custom cam core. The $800 for the cam was cheaper than all the cobbling up that would be needed to avoid it.
Posted By: STEFF
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/08/14 06:19 PM
After seeing the conversion kit in the Ebay ad, I guess it is do-able. But, I'd still just look for a non-VVT block. There's plenty of them out there.
Posted By: BBR
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/09/14 11:17 PM
Next question:
Apache (6.4L) heads on a 5.7L block.
I read that a bore notch *may* be needed, but everything I read is regurgitated second-hand info. No first-hand accounts or pics of the required notch.
So to notch or not? That is my question!
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/09/14 11:29 PM
Quote:
Next question:
Apache (6.4L) heads on a 5.7L block.
I read that a bore notch *may* be needed, but everything I read is regurgitated second-hand info. No first-hand accounts or pics of the required notch.
So to notch or not? That is my question!
Come over and tear down one of my 5.7s and you can check it. im to busy 
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/10/14 03:14 AM
Posted By: Moparmal
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/10/14 03:18 AM
Post for any/all who may know -
What psi for a blow through application with a 6.1 would be conservative enough to keep running the factory rods and slugs indefinitely?
Or will any boost see me blowing oil past the rings
In 12 mths time?
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/10/14 03:33 AM
Quote:
http://blogs.hotrod.com/417ci-gen-iii-he...014-145505.html
Article says Thitek worked production 6.4 heads, specs at the bottom just say Thitek, ported....Either way, very impressive piece for sure! Wonder if it is using adjustable valvetrain with the hydraulic roller.
Posted By: BBR
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/10/14 04:10 AM
Crazy cam in that thing. Short duration, tight lsa, lotsa lift!
oops I was talking about this one!
http://blogs.hotrod.com/401ci-gen-iii-he...014-145463.html
Posted By: MattW
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/10/14 12:50 PM
Quote:
Next question:
Apache (6.4L) heads on a 5.7L block.
I read that a bore notch *may* be needed, but everything I read is regurgitated second-hand info. No first-hand accounts or pics of the required notch.
So to notch or not? That is my question!
I'm the one who took the pics. It's without a gasket. It would require a small notch.
For the life of me I can't find the post.
When I get home from work tonight I will make a post with pics.
Matt
Posted By: MattW
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/10/14 12:54 PM
Quote:
Quote:
http://blogs.hotrod.com/417ci-gen-iii-he...014-145505.html
Article says Thitek worked production 6.4 heads, specs at the bottom just say Thitek, ported....Either way, very impressive piece for sure! Wonder if it is using adjustable valvetrain with the hydraulic roller.
I'm thinking they use the thitek heads so they can put the best port for the job at hand. Instead of fixing a factory casting.
Matt
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/10/14 06:55 PM
6-8 psi. Mike at OST has done more, but we're not him.
I wouldn't do a blow through with delicate pistons on a 6.1..we go through this about once a year...you need EFI and forged pistons to really make use of that motor.
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/10/14 06:57 PM
http://www.truckinweb.com/tech/1110tr_5_7_hemi_performance_cam_swap_part_1/Awesome to see the HP/CI numbers show up. There is the 1.43hp/ci from a truck intake.
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/10/14 10:24 PM
Quote:
Crazy cam in that thing. Short duration, tight lsa, lotsa lift!
oops I was talking about this one!
http://blogs.hotrod.com/401ci-gen-iii-he...014-145463.html
Both cams are like that. Looks like i can add a few more spacers under my carb 
Posted By: Triple Threat
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/10/14 10:24 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Crazy cam in that thing. Short duration, tight lsa, lotsa lift!
oops I was talking about this one!
http://blogs.hotrod.com/401ci-gen-iii-he...014-145463.html
Both cams are like that. Looks like i can add a few more spacers under my carb
And they're limited to 2", wonder how high they would go without a limit.
Posted By: MattW
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/10/14 10:45 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Crazy cam in that thing. Short duration, tight lsa, lotsa lift!
oops I was talking about this one!
http://blogs.hotrod.com/401ci-gen-iii-he...014-145463.html
Both cams are like that. Looks like i can add a few more spacers under my carb
And they're limited to 2", wonder how high they would go without a limit.
But no tunnel ram allowed. 
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/12/14 02:15 AM
Quote:
Quote:
No, that is an assembled pair.
I tried selling my eagles to buy a set, but I might buy a set anyway...
have I ever told every one on this site how much I hate them? I just pulled the trigger on 6.4 heads. I got them from mopar-wholesale. they were $470+150 core each. That is the cheapest they have been in a very long time. I check regularly
Just went to pull the trigger on these now and of course the site has changed to something totally different and there is nothing listed anymore for ANY cylinder heads 
Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/12/14 04:32 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
No, that is an assembled pair.
I tried selling my eagles to buy a set, but I might buy a set anyway...
have I ever told every one on this site how much I hate them? I just pulled the trigger on 6.4 heads. I got them from mopar-wholesale. they were $470+150 core each. That is the cheapest they have been in a very long time. I check regularly
Just went to pull the trigger on these now and of course the site has changed to something totally different and there is nothing listed anymore for ANY cylinder heads
Don't Panic..
http://rtpartsco.com/store/
Select 2013 Dodge Charger SRT
Put in these numbers: 68086555AA 68086556AA
Chris..
Posted By: Moparmal
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/12/14 09:20 AM
Quote:
6-8 psi. Mike at OST has done more, but we're not him.
I wouldn't do a blow through with delicate pistons on a 6.1..we go through this about once a year...you need EFI and forged pistons to really make use of that motor.
Thx Alex - so even with 6psi theres a risk factor using blow thru dual quads?
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/12/14 11:36 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
No, that is an assembled pair.
I tried selling my eagles to buy a set, but I might buy a set anyway...
have I ever told every one on this site how much I hate them? I just pulled the trigger on 6.4 heads. I got them from mopar-wholesale. they were $470+150 core each. That is the cheapest they have been in a very long time. I check regularly
Just went to pull the trigger on these now and of course the site has changed to something totally different and there is nothing listed anymore for ANY cylinder heads
Don't Panic..
http://rtpartsco.com/store/
Select 2013 Dodge Charger SRT
Put in these numbers: 68086555AA 68086556AA
Chris..
I am thinking these heads are a better deal than rebuilding my 06 truck 5.7 heads, to go on a 388 cube carbed stroker. Opinions?
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/12/14 07:11 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
No, that is an assembled pair.
I tried selling my eagles to buy a set, but I might buy a set anyway...
have I ever told every one on this site how much I hate them? I just pulled the trigger on 6.4 heads. I got them from mopar-wholesale. they were $470+150 core each. That is the cheapest they have been in a very long time. I check regularly
Just went to pull the trigger on these now and of course the site has changed to something totally different and there is nothing listed anymore for ANY cylinder heads
Don't Panic..
http://rtpartsco.com/store/
Select 2013 Dodge Charger SRT
Put in these numbers: 68086555AA 68086556AA
Chris..
I paniced prematurely...found the place that has them for $460 a head plus the $150 core charge...although the cheapest shipping staying stateside is $160
Posted By: MattW
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/12/14 07:35 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
No, that is an assembled pair.
I tried selling my eagles to buy a set, but I might buy a set anyway...
have I ever told every one on this site how much I hate them? I just pulled the trigger on 6.4 heads. I got them from mopar-wholesale. they were $470+150 core each. That is the cheapest they have been in a very long time. I check regularly
Just went to pull the trigger on these now and of course the site has changed to something totally different and there is nothing listed anymore for ANY cylinder heads
Don't Panic..
http://rtpartsco.com/store/
Select 2013 Dodge Charger SRT
Put in these numbers: 68086555AA 68086556AA
Chris..
I paniced prematurely...found the place that has them for $460 a head plus the $150 core charge...although the cheapest shipping staying stateside is $160
That to ship both heads correct?
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/12/14 07:50 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
No, that is an assembled pair.
I tried selling my eagles to buy a set, but I might buy a set anyway...
have I ever told every one on this site how much I hate them? I just pulled the trigger on 6.4 heads. I got them from mopar-wholesale. they were $470+150 core each. That is the cheapest they have been in a very long time. I check regularly
Just went to pull the trigger on these now and of course the site has changed to something totally different and there is nothing listed anymore for ANY cylinder heads
Don't Panic..
http://rtpartsco.com/store/
Select 2013 Dodge Charger SRT
Put in these numbers: 68086555AA 68086556AA
Chris..
I paniced prematurely...found the place that has them for $460 a head plus the $150 core charge...although the cheapest shipping staying stateside is $160
That to ship both heads correct?
Yes, both heads. I have paid cheaper than that to ship iron heads from Canada to the U.S., the price seems a little steep
Posted By: Charger453
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/12/14 08:09 PM
Shipping prices certainly aren't getting any cheaper and I don't know if they insure them or what, but I just paid $125 to ship a pair of BB Eddy's from Nebraska to California with $1600 insurance. This was via USPS Priority mail. UPS would have been $115 and taken two days longer.
Posted By: onig
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 12:37 AM
Just went to that factorymoparparts.net site and the part # is now 68086555AB. The old number was AA and now AB. Not sure if that makes a difference, anybody know. And shipping is $24 per head.
Posted By: onig
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 01:04 AM
The heads to buy are which ones?
With MDS (ESG)
or Without MDS (ESH)
I am finding these codes on multiple websites that sell mopar parts.
What makes the heads different with and without MDS?
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 04:30 AM
I just ordered a set of 6.4 heads. Hope they work well on a 388 motor!
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 05:13 AM
It would be nice if the aftermarket starts taking notice to the Hemis winning engine masters and more and more guys buying parts for them.
Maybe Mopar even takes notice to a bunch of heads selling
I would like to see a cast tunnel ram like Holley makes for the LS motors
Posted By: BBR
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 06:35 AM
Quote:
Just went to that factorymoparparts.net site and the part # is now 68086555AB. The old number was AA and now AB. Not sure if that makes a difference, anybody know. And shipping is $24 per head.
EDIT - nevermind. I'm an idiot. lol
The heads are side specific.
AA is one side.
AB is the other.
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 06:39 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Just went to that factorymoparparts.net site and the part # is now 68086555AB. The old number was AA and now AB. Not sure if that makes a difference, anybody know. And shipping is $24 per head.
The heads are side specific.
AA is one side.
AB is the other.
Except that if you enter in AB or AA at the end of the part number, it always shows the head ending in part #AB...I know that the hemi's are side specific, but I am not sure why it shows up as AB even when you enter in AA at the end of the part #
I wouldn't want to order from there if I wasn't sure I would indeed be getting both heads, side specific, and not the same head twice.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 06:58 AM
Quote:
It would be nice if the aftermarket starts taking notice to the Hemis winning engine masters and more and more guys buying parts for them.
Maybe Mopar even takes notice to a bunch of heads selling
I would like to see a cast tunnel ram like Holley makes for the LS motors
Agreed, these guys are winning this stuff with the most limited aftermarket out of any other engine besides maybe the Poncho 400. Stock 6.1 intakes are drying up at a pretty fast rate too.
Posted By: Just-a-dart
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 07:06 AM
I just picked up another set of 6.4 heads From Matt at Glendora Dodge a few weeks ago part #s 68086555AA and 68086556AA.
He had at least one more set in stock. You guys might want to give him a shot instead of the faceless internet sites that have NO advice and do not care if you get the right part.
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 07:12 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Just went to that factorymoparparts.net site and the part # is now 68086555AB. The old number was AA and now AB. Not sure if that makes a difference, anybody know. And shipping is $24 per head.
The heads are side specific.
AA is one side.
AB is the other.
That is not correct but I was told they are going thru a part number change so someone could end up with that senerio
Posted By: Charger453
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 08:26 AM
I just dropped a 6.1 head off to the guy I use. He's been a part of Engine Masters a few times and was always involved in the induction side of things; never on a Mopar team tho. He is getting pretty heavily involved in the first gen Hemi stuff and he also talks to Brad Nagle so it will be interesting to see what he can get these things to do. I wish I could find him a cheap 6.4 head to play with as well. He's going to get a slider plate made up for the Hemi head to use on his flow bench and I will certainly post up the progress/results.
Posted By: Quickrunner
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 02:03 PM
Eagle heads are side specific too??
Posted By: STEFF
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 02:29 PM
Quote:
Eagle heads are side specific too??
I believe all heads later than the original 5.7 and 6.1 SRT8 heads are side specific. Why....no clue. I know the head gaskets for the 6.4 are side specific.
Posted By: onig
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 03:03 PM
Quote:
I just picked up another set of 6.4 heads From Matt at Glendora Dodge a few weeks ago part #s 68086555AA and 68086556AA.
He had at least one more set in stock. You guys might want to give him a shot instead of the faceless internet sites that have NO advice and do not care if you get the right part.
Thanks for the tip.
I will be giving Matt a call when they open. They are in California, three hour difference from me. Today is Thanksgiving for us Canadians so the call will be a little later on in the day.
Posted By: onig
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 03:10 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Just went to that factorymoparparts.net site and the part # is now 68086555AB. The old number was AA and now AB. Not sure if that makes a difference, anybody know. And shipping is $24 per head.
EDIT - nevermind. I'm an idiot. lol
The heads are side specific.
AA is one side.
AB is the other.
I won't call you an idiot, it's all cool.
The heads end in a different number.
68086555-AA, this now ends with AB
68086556-AA
Not sure what that change up means. If anybody does, please share.
Posted By: Quickrunner
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 03:39 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Eagle heads are side specific too??
I believe all heads later than the original 5.7 and 6.1 SRT8 heads are side specific. Why....no clue. I know the head gaskets for the 6.4 are side specific.
Looking at my bare cnc ported Eagle heads I dont see a difference. I will look closer tonight.
Posted By: onig
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 03:39 PM
I just called RTpartsco for these heads.
He stated that there are only 20 sets left nationally. He has sold many in recent weeks. He asked how I heard about these. He just shipped a set to Russia and Australia.
I asked if he knew what the "suppersion AB" was and he did not know, but is going to ask. He doesn't think he will get an answer to be honest.
I will still call Glendora in Cali later today.
Posted By: STEFF
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 03:49 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Eagle heads are side specific too??
I believe all heads later than the original 5.7 and 6.1 SRT8 heads are side specific. Why....no clue. I know the head gaskets for the 6.4 are side specific.
Looking at my bare cnc ported Eagle heads I dont see a difference. I will look closer tonight.
Look at the oil drain locations in the head that go to the block. I believe that is why there are left and right sides.
Posted By: onig
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 04:04 PM
Quote:
I just ordered a set of 6.4 heads. Hope they work well on a 388 motor!
How much and from where?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 04:45 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Eagle heads are side specific too??
I believe all heads later than the original 5.7 and 6.1 SRT8 heads are side specific. Why....no clue. I know the head gaskets for the 6.4 are side specific.
Looking at my bare cnc ported Eagle heads I dont see a difference. I will look closer tonight.
Look at the oil drain locations in the head that go to the block. I believe that is why there are left and right sides.
The exhaust flanges are side specific as well as the oil drainbacks. They can all be converted to universal though.
Posted By: STEFF
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 05:02 PM
I agree!
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 05:05 PM
How would one go about converting oil drainbacks and exhaust flanges to universal? Has this been done before?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/13/14 06:03 PM
Call Modern Muscle and ask for Chris
Posted By: onig
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/14/14 12:11 AM
I can't remember if this has been answered, but will the rocker system from a 5.7, and 6.1 work on the 6.4?
Posted By: STEFF
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/14/14 12:25 AM
Quote:
I can't remember if this has been answered, but will the rocker system from a 5.7, and 6.1 work on the 6.4?
Yes. Rockers are all the same.
Posted By: onig
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/14/14 01:30 AM
Thanks Steff.
I am trying to compile a comparison chart between the Gen 3 heads.
Also I have been trying to reach Matt D at Glendora Chrysler but can't get him, even left a phone message but still no answer/reply.
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/14/14 03:58 AM
RTpartsco, on line early today, 6am?. $1280 to my door for the pair. Pretty hard to pass that up, when there have been a few issues with older 5.7 heads dropping valve seats from what I hear. And I still have the 5.7 cores to sell.
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/14/14 04:22 AM
Quote:
RTpartsco, on line early today, 6am?. $1280 to my door for the pair. Pretty hard to pass that up, when there have been a few issues with older 5.7 heads dropping valve seats from what I hear. And I still have the 5.7 cores to sell.
What were the part numbers if you don't mind sharing???
I agree its a GREAT deal, but I want to make sure I order the RIGHT heads, as in the right head for each specific side.
Posted By: AlexP
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/14/14 04:35 AM
Quote:
I can't remember if this has been answered, but will the rocker system from a 5.7, and 6.1 work on the 6.4?
Yes. They're all the same except for pushrods.
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/14/14 04:39 AM
Quote:
Quote:
RTpartsco, on line early today, 6am?. $1280 to my door for the pair. Pretty hard to pass that up, when there have been a few issues with older 5.7 heads dropping valve seats from what I hear. And I still have the 5.7 cores to sell.
What were the part numbers if you don't mind sharing???
I agree its a GREAT deal, but I want to make sure I order the RIGHT heads, as in the right head for each specific side.
For the tenth time in this thread
Posted By: Moparmal
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/14/14 11:12 AM
Any dyno or flow bench data on how a stock set of Apaches performs vs the 6.1s up to .570 valve lift?
Posted By: MattW
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/14/14 03:00 PM
Quote:
Any dyno or flow bench data on how a stock set of Apaches performs vs the 6.1s up to .570 valve lift?
Soon but I don't have no 6.1 heads. Everything else I have. Matt
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/14/14 04:20 PM
Quote:
Any dyno or flow bench data on how a stock set of Apaches performs vs the 6.1s up to .570 valve lift?
I do not have 6.1 heads either but from what I have read, the 6.1 heads flow very well and I wouldn't ditch them for 6.4s. in stock form the Eagles and 6.1s are close but ported the 6.1s flow more from what I have read.
Posted By: onig
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/14/14 07:58 PM
Just ordered two sets of heads.
I don't have any gen 3 stuff at all, naadaa.
And now it begins!!
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/14/14 08:21 PM
Quote:
Just ordered two sets of heads.
I don't have any gen 3 stuff at all, naadaa.
And now it begins!!
its how I started when I bought Eagle heads for $444. Good Luck
Posted By: Cevidicus
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/18/14 02:30 AM
Anybody have a part number for a 6.4 crank and a 6.4 short block?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/18/14 03:07 AM
Posted By: MattW
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/18/14 03:52 PM
Quote:
Anybody have a part number for a 6.4 crank and a 6.4 short block?
Short block 68086564AB orRL086564AB
Crankshaft 5038339A
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/18/14 03:55 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Anybody have a part number for a 6.4 crank and a 6.4 short block?
Short block 68086564AB orRL086564AB
Crankshaft 5038339A
The 6.4 crankshaft is forged, correct?
Does anybody know if the 6.4 crank has the same oiling issues as a 5.7 crank does? Wondering if it is a good alternative to aftermarket forged crank for a stroker 5.7 motor.
Posted By: MattW
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/18/14 06:42 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Anybody have a part number for a 6.4 crank and a 6.4 short block?
Short block 68086564AB orRL086564AB
Crankshaft 5038339A
The 6.4 crankshaft is forged, correct?
Does anybody know if the 6.4 crank has the same oiling issues as a 5.7 crank does? Wondering if it is a good alternative to aftermarket forged crank for a stroker 5.7 motor.
AFAIK the oiling is the same.
The crank is forged. Matt
Posted By: STEFF
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/18/14 07:56 PM
Just curious why anyone wants to run a stock crank when the aftermarket cranks are a better piece and not that much more expensive...
Posted By: MattW
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/18/14 08:12 PM
Quote:
Just curious why anyone wants to run a stock crank when the aftermarket cranks are a better piece and not that much more expensive...
But I bought mine for half the price that they are now.
Posted By: Uhcoog1
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/18/14 09:00 PM
I think the idea that the cranks are causing oiling issues is mostly BS.
Stanton Racing (drag pak builder) told me the drag pak cars need 11.5 quarts between the pan and accusump. And there are at least a half dozen guys running stock 6.1 cranks shifting at 8200-8600 rpm and all have been fine for 2+ years.
Also- for those planning builds- the VVT motor cranks require machining if you want to run them in a non-VVT motor.
Posted By: onig
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/18/14 10:24 PM
What makes a VVT crank different from a non VVT?
What machining steps are required?
Posted By: mshred
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/18/14 10:31 PM
Quote:
Just curious why anyone wants to run a stock crank when the aftermarket cranks are a better piece and not that much more expensive...
I agree 100% with you Stef as the Molnar stuff is only like $100 more...But you never know when you might catch a good deal on a 6.4 crank, and I just thought I would ask since I was unsure if the oiling issues was restricted to 5.7s only, or also 6.1's and 6.4's also.
Posted By: STEFF
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/18/14 11:05 PM
Quote:
What makes a VVT crank different from a non VVT?
What machining steps are required?
Timing gear is positioned further forward on the VVT crank. Would need to machine the crank snout to work in non VVT motor.
Posted By: MattW
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/18/14 11:14 PM
Quote:
What makes a VVT crank different from a non VVT?
What machining steps are required?
Lets see if I can explain this correctly.
The VVT crank needs the snout where the crank timing gear rest against to be machined so the gear sits in the same factory location on an NON VVT block.
Simple process.
The cam in a VVT block is longer.
Steff posted some pics when he built his 6.4.
Matt
Posted By: 1badx
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/19/14 01:07 AM
Quote:
Mike at that boost level what valvesprings and lifter setup are you using?
Stock 6.1 lifters and whatever springs PWR recommended for the cam.
Posted By: 1badx
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/19/14 01:14 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Just curious why anyone wants to run a stock crank when the aftermarket cranks are a better piece and not that much more expensive...
Stock 6.1 cranks generally go for about $150, are forged and can easily handle most power needs. Buy a set of good rods, pistons and studs and you will have a stout combo. On the flip side the price for aftermarket rotating assemblies is very affordable.
Posted By: hemidup
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/19/14 02:22 PM
Quote:
I think the idea that the cranks are causing oiling issues is mostly BS.
Stanton Racing (drag pak builder) told me the drag pak cars need 11.5 quarts between the pan and accusump. And there are at least a half dozen guys running stock 6.1 cranks shifting at 8200-8600 rpm and all have been fine for 2+ years.
Stanton mass produced the Drag Pak engines.For whatever reason he ground down the 6.1 rod journals to except Chevy SB rods. Whomever he chose to grind the crankshafts down must have been "someone" with little or no knowledge how to properly grind a crankshaft. After disassembling the Stanton fresh built 5.7 the first red flag rose when I noticed was that some of the supposedly zero deck pistons where either sticking out of the hole or in the hole which tells me that "someone" didn't know how to index a crankshaft properly. And the worse cluster mess up was that one piston was .006" above deck on the pin side and .005" in the hole on the other side??? .011" difference from pin to pin on a 3.917 bore. How hard on the rod bearings would that much deflection on the rod journal cause? I brought this up to Stanton himself but I'm not inclined to tell you what his suggestions were cause he'd probably plead the 5th so I made the decision to scrap the crank and grind a new one that I had on hand. So that brings up the question as to how many Drag Pak owners used their Stanton built motors as is and blame oiling issues as the reason they windowed a block? Anyways, just to be safe a Molnar crankshaft was purchased to replace the OEM 6.1.
Posted By: onig
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/19/14 03:04 PM
Quote:
Quote:
What makes a VVT crank different from a non VVT?
What machining steps are required?
Timing gear is positioned further forward on the VVT crank. Would need to machine the crank snout to work in non VVT motor.
Does this also apply to 5.7 and 6.1?
Posted By: MattW
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/19/14 03:07 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
What makes a VVT crank different from a non VVT?
What machining steps are required?
Timing gear is positioned further forward on the VVT crank. Would need to machine the crank snout to work in non VVT motor.
Does this also apply to 5.7 and 6.1?
No.
The only ones affected were the 6.4 and the 5.7 eagle head motors. 09 and up for the 5.7.
I think the 6.4 came out in 2011.
Posted By: onig
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/19/14 03:15 PM
6.1 engines did not come with VVT?
Posted By: onig
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/19/14 06:33 PM
Quote:
Quote:
What makes a VVT crank different from a non VVT?
What machining steps are required?
Lets see if I can explain this correctly.
The VVT crank needs the snout where the crank timing gear rest against to be machined so the gear sits in the same factory location on an NON VVT block.
Simple process.
The cam in a VVT block is longer.
Steff posted some pics when he built his 6.4.
Matt
I saw the pics that you posted on the other thread. That shows what you mean. Picture is worth a thousand words.
Thanks Matt!
Onig
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/19/14 07:04 PM
Quote:
6.1 engines did not come with VVT?
Never!
Posted By: Moparmal
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/20/14 02:22 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I think the idea that the cranks are causing oiling issues is mostly BS.
Stanton Racing (drag pak builder) told me the drag pak cars need 11.5 quarts between the pan and accusump. And there are at least a half dozen guys running stock 6.1 cranks shifting at 8200-8600 rpm and all have been fine for 2+ years.
Stanton mass produced the Drag Pak engines.For whatever reason he ground down the 6.1 rod journals to except Chevy SB rods. Whomever he chose to grind the crankshafts down must have been "someone" with little or no knowledge how to properly grind a crankshaft. After disassembling the Stanton fresh built 5.7 the first red flag rose when I noticed was that some of the supposedly zero deck pistons where either sticking out of the hole or in the hole which tells me that "someone" didn't know how to index a crankshaft properly. And the worse cluster mess up was that one piston was .006" above deck on the pin side and .005" in the hole on the other side??? .011" difference from pin to pin on a 3.917 bore. How hard on the rod bearings would that much deflection on the rod journal cause? I brought this up to Stanton himself but I'm not inclined to tell you what his suggestions were cause he'd probably plead the 5th so I made the decision to scrap the crank and grind a new one that I had on hand. So that brings up the question as to how many Drag Pak owners used their Stanton built motors as is and blame oiling issues as the reason they windowed a block? Anyways, just to be safe a Molnar crankshaft was purchased to replace the OEM 6.1.
Jerry makes a very important point on the Drag Pak program....
Seems Mopar laid off the original Drag Pak program development team - and the individuals directly involved took a lot of IP with them.
Mopar then contracted the assembly program to Stanton...who did not have access to all the IP and had build targets to meet.....
....thats why Hemidup's post is worth referencing.
Posted By: CHAPPER
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/20/14 02:33 AM
Quote:
I think the idea that the cranks are causing oiling issues is mostly BS.
Stanton Racing (drag pak builder) told me the drag pak cars need 11.5 quarts between the pan and accusump. And there are at least a half dozen guys running stock 6.1 cranks shifting at 8200-8600 rpm and all have been fine for 2+ years.
Also- for those planning builds- the VVT motor cranks require machining if you want to run them in a non-VVT motor.
First mistake.."Stanton told me..." He told me lots of stuff too when I was gathering info on the Gen 3. Turns out,,,most of it was WRONG!!!
Posted By: Cevidicus
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/20/14 04:04 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Anybody have a part number for a 6.4 crank and a 6.4 short block?
Short block 68086564AB orRL086564AB
Crankshaft 5038339A
Thanks for the numbers. Although, I couldn't find anything.
I was trying to find the price for a new 6.4 crank to compare with other options.
My initial thought was to use the 6.4 crank in my 09 5.7 Eagle engine with custom pistons and forged rods. This would be for a turbo build. Not interested in gaining cu in's but a forged crank on a budget.
What does it take to run a 6.1 crank in a vvt 5.7?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/20/14 04:11 AM
A crank spacer is needed. This has been done already with guys stroking 6.4's. One thing to be aware of is the timing chains on the VVT's had problems early on. Just something to double check ahead of time.
Posted By: Cevidicus
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/20/14 04:50 AM
Quote:
A crank spacer is needed. This has been done already with guys stroking 6.4's. One thing to be aware of is the timing chains on the VVT's had problems early on. Just something to double check ahead of time.
I plan on updating to the the timing set and tensioners when the time comes. Hopefully by then there will be a heavy duty aftermarket piece available.
I have seen the timing chains break on a couple auto challengers w/ mds. Not a fun time.
Is there a spacer available or is that a custom deal?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 10/20/14 04:55 AM
Quote:
Quote:
A crank spacer is needed. This has been done already with guys stroking 6.4's. One thing to be aware of is the timing chains on the VVT's had problems early on. Just something to double check ahead of time.
I plan on updating to the the timing set and tensioners when the time comes. Hopefully by then there will be a heavy duty aftermarket piece available.
I have seen the timing chains break on a couple auto challengers w/ mds. Not a fun time.
Is there a spacer available or is that a custom deal?
I would call Modern Muscle, HHP or Arrington.
Posted By: turbofreek
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 06/02/15 05:09 PM
So it looks like lots of confusion on the differences of these engines. Im gonna clear a few things up from what i have learned and been told from either andy at pwr or a few other builders on the front lines of these beasts.
Eagle heads ported will out flow all other factories except apachies and its really really close anyways.
Apachies have a different valve layout. Bore notching recomended or required. Most recommend 4.06 bore or more for shrouding issues.
Thitek aftermarket heads are the absolute best way to go boosted or forced induction. They also outflow the stock stuff ported. They come in different sizes and will allow stock rocker setups to be used. Better valve springs such as double or triple springs vs the beehive on stocker heads.
More lift as well which equals much more power on the table from them there.
Newer gen4 blocks are different from the older 6.1 or 5.7. Heads are interchangable fwiw.
1200rwhp is where stock heads begin to have sealing issues. Some have passed this number successfully but few are sharing how. Thiteks will allow more due to thicker stronger casting. How much more i dont know but several hundred horse power at least.
Most early 5.7 blocks can be bored to 4" and still be thicker than a 6.1 casting block in the cylinder walls.
6.1 block strength vs 5.7 is a sales myth from ma mopar herself. It sold lots of srt8s due to this very thing. Piston sprayers is a nice upgrade for sure but thats about it. If your starting from scratch 5.7 will be just fine. Most will never meet the limits of the casting vs meeting their tuning ability first. One will get blamed to avoid the other truths.
Non mds lifters can be made solid roller its been done and a few places sell the spacers or will do the job for you.
There are several rocker system in the aftermarket but are costly. Some are not adjustable and the good ones are costly. Including needing head machine work to remove the stands.
Cam profiles. Hhp is gonna be your best bet for a performer. They use bes for their engines. That is an awefully tough bill to beat in the racing world or engine world for that matter. There are others yes but remember the one place to not sell your self to short or to long is cam profile.
Well im outta free time for now. Im not an expert. Ive just researched a ton when others had no answers years ago. Lots of phone calls and lengthy conversations. Now its just a click away to find this info all over the place.
Posted By: onig
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 06/02/15 05:19 PM
Thanks Freek!
Posted By: turbofreek
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 06/02/15 05:41 PM
Welcome. Been a long time since ive been over here.
My current build
67 dart
05 5.7 block 4" bore billet caps stroke yet to be determined
80mm billet turbo
1.80 glide reid 2pc case from ptc
holley hp efi 160lbs injectors
Davis tc-2 tc+ profiler box
muscle motors dp intake shorter than short 4500 when done
jakes billet elbow accufab 105mm tb
Strange 9", on leafs with assassin bars
Tons of money thrown at it and still not done.
Posted By: Triple Threat
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 06/02/15 07:28 PM
Welcome. Been a long time since ive been over here.
My current build
67 dart
05 5.7 block 4" bore billet caps stroke yet to be determined
80mm billet turbo
1.80 glide reid 2pc case from ptc
holley hp efi 160lbs injectors
Davis tc-2 tc+ profiler box
muscle motors dp intake shorter than short 4500 when done
jakes billet elbow accufab 105mm tb
Strange 9", on leafs with assassin bars
Tons of money thrown at it and still not done.
BALLER!!!
Posted By: turbofreek
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 06/02/15 09:15 PM
Lol. You see how much a reid case promod glide is? That thing killed me. Haha
Posted By: pittsburghracer
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 06/02/15 10:01 PM
I'm sure glad you guys are working out the issues with this new stuff as it cost WAY to much to go fast with it. Until then I will play with my 40 plus year old small blocks. Heck when I see what just the cores are selling for I cringe.
Posted By: turbofreek
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 06/02/15 10:25 PM
6.1s are steap even used. 5.7 can be done real cheap. Its the ignition or efi part that can get costly unless you know how to find and what to look for on the cheap side of expenses.
Realisticly you can get a running 5.7 for 1200 with needing induction and controls either efi or carb and ignition box. Megasquirt being rather low cost plug n play for stock engines. Adjustable for future mods as need.
Limited only by budget or needs.
Posted By: superhog88
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 06/03/15 04:48 AM
who is making the 4in pistons
Posted By: turbofreek
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 06/03/15 06:28 AM
who is making the 4in pistons
:x. ...a very reputable piston maker once i know my stroke choice. Im in limbo deciding between two class rules. One a big cube will choke max power. The other would make me 1st round fodder if i choose to turn it up. So im leaving it as my last thing i do after all else is finished and plumbed. Weisco has made a set or 2 ive heard as has diamond.
Not a big deal its just a custom piston set.
Posted By: ntstlgl1970
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 06/03/15 08:01 AM
I've gone from an iron head 440 in my 70 cuda to a gen3 hemi. Bought the hemi as a core from the moparts sale section. Turned out it was a 7.0 crate motor. I had to replace the pistons, line hone the block, grind the crank and resize the rods and replace one intake rocker shaft and rockers due to a spun main bearing on #4. It has ported (unknown who did them other than it was cnc machined) 6.1 heads and I added in rocker shaft supports and locking spacers. Going to start off with the crate motor cam and maybe switch it later depending on how it runs. My car is setup for autocross/road racing so I'm not going for max power, but the weight reduction and extra power over the 440 is a plus. I'm running the 6.1 intake using Megasquirt for engine control. Currently hooked up to a 518 trans, but planning to switch that out for either a TKO/Passon 855 or T56 next year.
Posted By: superhog88
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 06/14/15 04:03 AM
what is the max cam lift for the stock rocker arms
Posted By: STEFF
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 06/14/15 05:51 AM
what is the max cam lift for the stock rocker arms
.650 is about pushing it.
Posted By: superhog88
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 06/14/15 05:47 PM
is this because of spring pressure being too high and rocker arm possibly breaking or rocker arm not making good contact on the top of the valve
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: please share your gen 3 Hemi build - 06/14/15 06:10 PM
Rocker arm pad runs out of sweep surface with the shafts in stock location.
