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Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed

Posted By: HR3128

Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/20/14 05:56 AM

What front cover fits an R3 block? I have seen listings for regular small block covers & R3 block covers. Then covers for R3 block with standard water pumps & R3 blocks with Race water pumps. Anybody know what's the difference in these covers? I'm thinking of using this pump(Moroso 63565) . What cover will it fit? Thanks for your help.

Attached picture 8275482-710-63565.jpg
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/20/14 06:26 AM

Quote:

What front cover fits an R3 block? I have seen listings for regular small block covers & R3 block covers. Then covers for R3 block with standard water pumps & R3 blocks with Race water pumps. Anybody know what's the difference in these covers? I'm thinking of using this pump(Moroso 63565) . What cover will it fit? Thanks for your help.




The difference is tall block or short block covers
so which deck height do you have... I'm sure the
pump fits either cover.. the holes for the short deck
look like a half moon in the cover
Posted By: HR3128

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/20/14 06:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

What front cover fits an R3 block? I have seen listings for regular small block covers & R3 block covers. Then covers for R3 block with standard water pumps & R3 blocks with Race water pumps. Anybody know what's the difference in these covers? I'm thinking of using this pump(Moroso 63565) . What cover will it fit? Thanks for your help.




The difference is tall block or short block covers
so which deck height do you have... I'm sure the
pump fits either cover.. the holes for the short deck
look like a half moon in the cover





It's a 9.00 deck.
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/20/14 07:42 AM

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Performanc...2a1&vxp=mtr

...this is like the one you need. And I can almost guarantee that Jegs doesn't have it, or able to get one.
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/20/14 07:45 AM

or......

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Cam-Belt-D...8e0&vxp=mtr
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/20/14 07:49 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

What front cover fits an R3 block? I have seen listings for regular small block covers & R3 block covers. Then covers for R3 block with standard water pumps & R3 blocks with Race water pumps. Anybody know what's the difference in these covers? I'm thinking of using this pump(Moroso 63565) . What cover will it fit? Thanks for your help.




The difference is tall block or short block covers
so which deck height do you have... I'm sure the
pump fits either cover.. the holes for the short deck
look like a half moon in the cover





It's a 9.00 deck.




Ok... the cover will have the 1/2 moon openings in
the 2 ports going into the block... MP part is P4876631
this is for the 9" and 9.20 deck with the standard
pump and P4876632 for the same deck and front motor
plate.... I use the 631 with a Meziere water pump with
a motor plate and never have any issues(my pump has
just the 2 ports that bolt on to the plate/block..
if your pump has the blades beyond the flat of the
mount area you need the 631 cover
Posted By: HR3128

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/20/14 03:43 PM

So MP part is P4876631 is the one to get. Is this one of the MP items that is on permanent back-order?
What is the difference between this one & a standard 340 type cover?
Thanks for the info.
Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/20/14 07:25 PM

Quote:

So MP part is P4876631 is the one to get. Is this one of the MP items that is on permanent back-order?
What is the difference between this one & a standard 340 type cover?
Thanks for the info.




On the short deck block (like the one you have) the upper bolt hole above the water port is much lower than stock and the water port is "D" shaped to maintain some thickness for sealing the passage.

There are a few of ways to solve the problem of adapting a standard water pump to your block. First is like Mr P said, find the special timing cover to fit. I have found these pretty hard to find now, but you might be able to come across a used one. Option two is belt drive cam like Jbody said and a pair of adapters to mount a Meziere pump. Third way is the previously mentioned belt drive and then a remote mounted pump pushing water into the center core plugs of the block.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/20/14 08:44 PM

I could build a short deck height version of my two piece timing chain cover. It would be expensive to make in low qty, but not too much more than the MP sand cast unit.

Attached picture 8275861-AR374f(Large).JPG
Posted By: HR3128

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/21/14 04:34 AM

Thanks for the info. This is the first time I've messed around with small block stuff. I never imagined there were so many variables.
Just to make sure I understand, an R3 9.00 block & an R3 9.20 block have the same water pump port & lower pump bolt hole location with a different port shape. The upper pump bolt hole locations are different for the 9.0 & the 9.2. Correct?
If this is correct, I also need a new motor plate to make this motor fit the car.
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/21/14 05:08 AM

Quote:

I could build a short deck height version of my two piece timing chain cover. It would be expensive to make in low qty, but not too much more than the MP sand cast unit.






That's a great looking cover Andy.
Posted By: HR3128

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/21/14 05:37 AM

Quote:

I could build a short deck height version of my two piece timing chain cover. It would be expensive to make in low qty, but not too much more than the MP sand cast unit.




All the parts on your site look great. Do you make any motorplates or water manifolds for the R3 blocks bolt pattern?
Posted By: tubtar

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/21/14 05:50 AM

That is a work of art Andy......I like the two piece bit too.
I think Ritter - Weber has a short deck motor plate available , but will punch one out in any configuration you desire if it isn't in stock.....beauty of the turret press.
Start adding up a sand cast cover and a quality timing set.........you are very close to the open belt cam drive.
Depending on your end use , there are additional benefits to this set up too.
I went open belt and remote water pump on my deal......mostly for the show and tell factor.
Last night was the first public appearance and it definitely turned heads.
After a couple days driving , it is ready for some serious business.
If I am lucky , I'll get a couple races in before it is time to put it up for the winter.
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/21/14 06:33 AM

I bought this:



to cut to make spacers for this:



which wasn't "pretty".... and 408strokerdart had some demand and fabbed up these beauties:



...and this bitchin motor plate:



..... I'm so far over my head in this project it aint funny! It's been a learning experience and I have to thank Tubtar, W5dart66, OU812 and 408strokerdart for guiding me through this mess.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/21/14 07:35 PM

No, I don't make any short deck stuff at the moment but I have the CAD files on hand. The market for that stuff is so tiny it just isn't worth spending the time to design the parts. I'd never get paid back for my time. I suppose if someone local had a short deck height motor program I'd work with them to make the parts. It doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to take some of my existing designs and modify them.

I add a couple of threaded holes to the timing covers so the motor plate can support the engine even with the water pump removed. That allows racers to pull the camshaft while the engine is still hanging from the plate. With the two piece cover you don't have to disturb the oil pan seal either so that saves a bunch of time and leaks.

Attached picture 8276569-AR374e(Large).JPG
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/21/14 07:47 PM

Quote:

No, I don't make any short deck stuff at the moment but I have the CAD files on hand. The market for that stuff is so tiny it just isn't worth spending the time to design the parts. I'd never get paid back for my time. I suppose if someone local had a short deck height motor program I'd work with them to make the parts. It doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to take some of my existing designs and modify them.

I add a couple of threaded holes to the timing covers so the motor plate can support the engine even with the water pump removed. That allows racers to pull the camshaft while the engine is still hanging from the plate. With the two piece cover you don't have to disturb the oil pan seal either so that saves a bunch of time and leaks.





I like the idea of a couple extra bolts to hold the
engine up with the front off ... I wish I
had a 2 piece cover to get at my gear drive if I wanted
to cam the cam or the cam timing.. but being I have
the sand cast version I have to pull the cover and
the motor plate to get at mine.. which means a floor
jack under the pan and a block of wood
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/21/14 07:56 PM

Been there done that! That is why I designed the two piece cover to clear the Milodon gear drive. Not sure if other brands of gear drive will clear also but the Milodon fits okay.

Attached picture 8276589-AR374i.jpg(Large).JPG
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/21/14 08:36 PM

I would have paid for those "not worth your time" parts.... Thankfully Brian Smith came through for me. I'm not a machinist, or much of a fabricator.... I bought two pieces of aluminum while I was in Phoenix, got a pattern to get some ideas off from another member. What I still would have needed to do was to take a day off work and travel 50 miles to Lake Havasu to discuss having my plates cuts to the design I needed.... Either way it would have been a very expensive motor plate by the time all was done.
Posted By: HR3128

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/22/14 04:56 AM

Quote:

I use the 631 with a Meziere water pump with
a motor plate and never have any issues(my pump has
just the 2 ports that bolt on to the plate/block..
if your pump has the blades beyond the flat of the
mount area you need the 631 cover




Mr. P Body - Do you have a part number for the Meziere pump you use?
I looked at their site & did not see anything listed for the short deck R3 bolt pattern.

I did find a couple P4876632 covers for sale, about $400. That looks to be the easiest way to go.
Thanks
Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/22/14 05:08 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I use the 631 with a Meziere water pump with
a motor plate and never have any issues(my pump has
just the 2 ports that bolt on to the plate/block..
if your pump has the blades beyond the flat of the
mount area you need the 631 cover




Mr. P Body - Do you have a part number for the Meziere pump you use?
I looked at their site & did not see anything listed for the short deck R3 bolt pattern.

I did find a couple P4876632 covers for sale, about $400. That looks to be the easiest way to go.
Thanks




You use a standard SB mopar pump with those covers. They accept the standard water pump bolt pattern for the two bolts on each side of the port.
Posted By: HR3128

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/22/14 05:27 AM

Is this how it's assembled? The bolt for the lower hole goes thru the pump flange, motor plate, cover into the block. Upper bolt goes thru the cover into the block(countersunk below the motor plate). Another upper bolt goes thru the pump flange, motor plate, into the cover.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/22/14 05:56 AM

Quote:

Is this how it's assembled? The bolt for the lower hole goes thru the pump flange, motor plate, cover into the block. Upper bolt goes thru the cover into the block(countersunk below the motor plate). Another upper bolt goes thru the pump flange, motor plate, into the cover.




Correct
EDIT
the 4 water pump bolts go all the way to the block
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/22/14 06:33 AM

Quote:


EDIT
the 4 water pump bolts go all the way to the block





Nope.... the countersunk bolt goes into the block, and only two of the waterpump bolts go through to the block. The other two thread into the cover.



This was after I had the hole welded into the cover and filed flat so my Mezier waterpump for a standard LA motor would seal to the cover.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/22/14 07:20 AM

Quote:

Quote:


EDIT
the 4 water pump bolts go all the way to the block





Nope.... the countersunk bolt goes into the block, and only two of the waterpump bolts go through to the block. The other two thread into the cover.





On my 9.2 R3 and the sand cast cover all 4 bolts in
the pump go all the way to the block... I have 4 studs
in it.. in this pic the top were bolts.. I later changed
to studs
EDIT
now you have me wondering but all 4 studs were the
same length


Attached picture 8277217-MVC-007F.JPG
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/22/14 03:54 PM

your top "water pump" fastner is a bolt....it threads into the timing cover. the countersunk bolt, covered by the motorplate, and the lower waterpump hole "where stud is" thread into the block.
Posted By: HR3128

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/22/14 07:02 PM

That clears up things a bunch. I was concerned about buying the wrong stuff. That means the motor plate I have will work.
Thanks for the help.
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 03:33 AM

Yep! My biggest hurdle was the belt drive.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 04:18 AM

Quote:

That clears up things a bunch. I was concerned about buying the wrong stuff. That means the motor plate I have will work.
Thanks for the help.




Sorry for the error... I sold my engine and couldnt
go look at it.. I had to go by memory and I guess
thats not working
Posted By: HR3128

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 04:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

That clears up things a bunch. I was concerned about buying the wrong stuff. That means the motor plate I have will work.
Thanks for the help.




Sorry for the error... I sold my engine and couldnt
go look at it.. I had to go by memory and I guess
thats not working





No problem. If you can give that memory another try, I would like to know where you got the V-belt pulley & dry sump belt drive set-up. That's the next piece to my puzzle.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 05:14 AM

No problem. If you can give that memory another try, I would like to know where you got the V-belt pulley & dry sump belt drive set-up. That's the next piece to my puzzle.




No problem there... I made the V-belt pulley and I
bought the drive for the dry sump from
http://www.cvproducts.com
Your gonna have issues with a couple other things
like the intake valley cover(I made mine) and the
water system that attaches to the heads.. I made that also
Posted By: 340Cuda

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 05:18 AM

I was able to buy a valley cover from Kent Ritter.
Posted By: HR3128

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 05:40 AM

This is what I have. Valley cover & oil pump were included with the motor. Water fittings are in the heads. Front cover & balancer were not. I have some work ahead to get this all put together.

Attached picture 8278157-2014-09-05_13-14-54_22.jpg
Posted By: Plymouth340

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 05:43 AM

I run this on my R3 Motor. Works well. Got it from stock car products
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 06:21 AM

Quote:

This is what I have. Valley cover & oil pump were included with the motor. Water fittings are in the heads. Front cover & balancer were not. I have some work ahead to get this all put together.




Yeah you have the fittings in the heads but are you
gonna run braided line to all them and what will the
other ends hook up to... I made 2 manifolds that
mounted to the head fittings then they have 2 short
lengths of braided that go to the tank that has the
radiator cap on it... plus I needed something up
high(my radiator mounts low) so the air gets out the
top easy
Posted By: HR3128

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 07:07 AM

I was thinking I would get a hose-to-AN adapter for the radiator & run some water lines. The rad has a cap but I'm not sure if it's tall enough to let the air out. Any pics of your set-up?
I have been kind of obsessed with this front cover stuff. I did not know about the special covers for R3 blocks. And without the parts I did not see how it all fit. And did not want to spend $400 on a cover & then find out I bought the wrong one. I was concerned that the motor plate would not fit.
Thanks to all that explained how this stuff bolts together.
Posted By: tubtar

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 02:39 PM

I got my valley cover along with some other odds and ends , and some great tips from Ryan J at Shady Dell.
Brett is an awesome source for info on these , but I've yet to pester him for parts.
Ritter- Weber still has some stuff and sometimes get around to making more , but my dealings with them left me with the impression that they'd prefer you know what you need and order accordingly.
Understandable too.........the huge number of ways to skin the R-3 / W-9 cat leaves a lot of room for interpretation.
Between deck heights , valve angles , cam bearings and etc. etc. , You can take as many steps backward as forward while you are sorting things out and some of them have price tags , some only man hours.
But they are unique little beasts and I am really enjoying mine now.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 02:40 PM

Here is a pic of how I did the water


Attached picture 8278305-DSC00074.JPG
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 02:43 PM

The manifold


Attached picture 8278310-DSC00073.JPG
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 03:56 PM

408strokerdart (Brian) also made a water manifold for these iirc. you might contact him.
Posted By: BJS racing

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 03:58 PM

Can I ask a stupid question since I actually will be dealing with some of what has been talked about? I know there are some different deck heights for the R3 blocks. What are they and for some reason I can't remember what the deck height is for a stock 360 block anymore. Anyone? Thanks and sorry for my horrible memory.
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 04:00 PM

9.56 (stock), 9.20, 9.00... the two latter had different mounting for the water pump, which was another thing that made it "interesting" for an idiot like me!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 04:39 PM

Quote:

9.59 (stock), 9.20, 9.00... the two latter had different mounting for the water pump, which was another thing that made it "interesting" for an idiot like me!




I never played with a 9.0 deck so I didnt know there
is 2 different water pump mounts... mine was 9.2..
and they made a R block with 9.56 deck
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 09:27 PM

fumble fingered the "9"... you are correct on the 9.56. 9.0 and 9.2 had the same front water pump mount, different from the .56.
Posted By: BJS racing

Re: Small Block Timing Chain Cover Help Needed - 09/23/14 10:17 PM

Ok thanks guys! I thought that was the way it was but wanted to make sure. Sometimes the brain will only retain info for so long before it has to be beaten back in there!
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