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Chinese forged cranks

Posted By: GTS340

Chinese forged cranks - 07/09/14 05:28 PM

Can anyone provide any insight on the lower end Chinese forged cranks? I'm looking for a 3.9 stroke crank with RB mains/2.200 rods and the only place that lists such a crank is Ohio crankshaft, I've personally never used any Ohio cranks but know several people who have with mostly decent results however Ohio will not have any available nor any 3.75 stroke cranks that could be offset ground to 3.9 for several months. I could offset grind a forged factory crank but would rather have a crank with fillets in the journals. I know K1, Molnar, and CompStar are supposed to be the best of the imports but since I will most likely be starting with a 3.75 and putting it right in the crank grinder anyway to offset grind and probably go .010 under on the mains Ive been looking at the really low end stuff like RPM, PEP, and Procomp so any potential issues with journal size, taper, and fillets would be a non-issue. Are there any other problems with the mentioned cranks as far as the raw forging, thrust faces, and ability to balance them without a ton of work? Also, has anyone had a lab test and verify the metallurgy on any of the Chinese 4340 cranks?
Application will be approximately 675 horsepower.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/09/14 05:54 PM

An Eagle rep claimed to me at PRI 2 years ago that a certain reseller of CCJ crank that was claimed to be 4340 was not , they bought one or were given one ?? , and sent it out for testing.

You get what you pay for .... I know that Big squeeze had one a few years ago that had an issue with the throws hitting the main webs on a 400 block when checking thrust in one direction.

How much is it going to cost to offset grind a stock stroke crank? That may make it easier to just pony up for a Molinar , call Todd/Comp Wedge .
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/09/14 06:04 PM

Quote:


How much is it going to cost to offset grind a stock stroke crank? That may make it easier to just pony up for a Molinar , call Todd/Comp Wedge .



No cost other than my time which is the only reason I'm considering that level of crank. Like I stated nobody other than Ohio offers exactly what I'm looking for and they are currently unavailable so offset grinding a 3.75 stroke crank, whether it be a factory forged or Chinese or waiting are my options.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/09/14 06:36 PM

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How much is it going to cost to offset grind a stock stroke crank? That may make it easier to just pony up for a Molinar , call Todd/Comp Wedge .



No cost other than my time which is the only reason I'm considering that level of crank. Like I stated nobody other than Ohio offers exactly what I'm looking for and they are currently unavailable so offset grinding a 3.75 stroke crank, whether it be a factory forged or Chinese or waiting are my options.




FWIW I`ve been beating the snot out of an off-set ground(3.90 stroke)413 forged crank and have heard that`s it`s possibly better than some off shore junk...........
Posted By: fishy340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/09/14 06:58 PM

You guy's do realize that Molnar,Scat 95%,K1 and a member here's cranks are chinese ?
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/09/14 07:03 PM

Quote:

You guy's do realize that Molnar,Scat 95%,K1 and a member here's cranks are chinese ?



If you're referring to me I thought I recognized that fact in my opening post
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/09/14 08:21 PM

I questioned Ohoi Crankshaft CO. a long time ago about where there cranks are made, they insisted that the Ohio Forge CO makes them in Ohio and Ohio Crankshaft Company just finishes them I've bought and used a bunch of there cranks over the years,(more than 12) I had one that was damaged by UPS in shipping(Crankshaft mounting flange was bent a buch :shock) and Ohio Crankshaft CO. took care of it at no expense to me They make good stuff I'm like Thumperdart, I've had several stock RB cranks offset ground to 3.91 to save money, I wouldn't buy a new one unless it was a bunch cheaper than a standard stroker crank like a 4.150 or 4.250 stroke though BTW, 440 Source may have a offset ground RB crank 3.91 in stock
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/09/14 08:27 PM

Quote:

I questioned Ohoi Crankshaft CO. a long time ago about where there cranks are made, they insisted that the Ohio Forge CO makes them in Ohio and Ohio Crankshaft Company just finishes them I've bought and used a bunch of there cranks over the years,(more than 12) I had one that was damaged by UPS in shipping(Crankshaft mounting flange was bent a buch :shock) and Ohio Crankshaft CO. took care of it at no expense to me They make good stuff I'm like Thumperdart, I've had several stock RB cranks offset ground to 3.91 to save money, I wouldn't buy a new one unless it was a bunch cheaper than a standard stroker crank like a 4.150 or 4.250 stroke though BTW, 440 Source may have a offset ground RB crank 3.91 in stock



440 source and Molnar have 3.91 cranks but only in B mains. Maybe I'll just see if I can push it out and wait for Ohio. Most people I know that are running their products are happy with them. Just curious how the really cheap stuff was if one didn't care about the typical issues because it was going to be corrected anyway.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/09/14 10:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

You guy's do realize that Molnar,Scat 95%,K1 and a member here's cranks are chinese ?



If you're referring to me I thought I recognized that fact in my opening post



Same here, with a Molnar and a few of the more pricey chinese forgings the companies stand behind the product ... because they are finished here, not over there ... and you'll get something that should be ready to run, the really low end, not so much.
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/09/14 11:16 PM

Back to the original point of this post, disregarding everyone's opinion on what the best Chinese crank and if it's ready to run or not. IF a crank from one of the companies that has a reputation of being shyte goes directly on the crank grinder because it is going to be offset ground for more stroke and taking mains down .010 while it's there, therefore correcting any flaws, taper, out of round etc. in both rod and main journals. Would a PEP, RPM, or Procomp crank be sufficient in a 675 horse application? Or are there bigger problems with these $425 range cranks that grinding all journals, indexing, and correcting stroke will not repair such as major issues trying to achieve balance and bad thrust faces (which could be welded and repaired)?
Posted By: Moparpoor

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 12:15 AM

I would just use a factory crank. Most low end cranks will need some type of work at your cost. Put the money towards high end rods and pistons!
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 12:50 AM

Quote:

I would just use a factory crank. Most low end cranks will need some type of work at your cost. Put the money towards high end rods and pistons!



So even though I perform my own machine work at no cost but time an old factory crank is better than a low end supposed 4340 Chinese forging? I'm looking for people who have dealt with these cranks personally and not just opinions. I'm willing to wait for Ohio if someone speaks up with merit but if I can achieve an equal piece by reworking one of the POS cranks I will
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 01:22 AM

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I would just use a factory crank. Most low end cranks will need some type of work at your cost. Put the money towards high end rods and pistons!



So even though I perform my own machine work at no cost but time an old factory crank is better than a low end supposed 4340 Chinese forging? I'm looking for people who have dealt with these cranks personally and not just opinions.





If you are lumping K1 and 440source into your low end bunch I'm on my 5th year of racing every weekend with my K1 crank 408. Hundreds of passes running a best of 10.06@130mph. Zero issues and its still going strong.
My big block daytona had a 440source crank in it and lasted 275 passes before the block broke. It ran 8.60's@158mph and the crank is still going strong in another build.
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 02:04 AM

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Quote:

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I would just use a factory crank. Most low end cranks will need some type of work at your cost. Put the money towards high end rods and pistons!



So even though I perform my own machine work at no cost but time an old factory crank is better than a low end supposed 4340 Chinese forging? I'm looking for people who have dealt with these cranks personally and not just opinions.





If you are lumping K1 and 440source into your low end bunch I'm on my 5th year of racing every weekend with my K1 crank 408. Hundreds of passes running a best of [Email]10.06@130mph.[/Email] Zero issues and its still going strong.
My big block daytona had a 440source crank in it and lasted 275 passes before the block broke. It ran 8.60's@158mph and the crank is still going strong in another build.



That's the kind of data I'm looking for however it's not exactly apples to apples. I'm sure the 408 has substantially less Bob weight than the big block set up. However I consider K1 on the top end and 440 source on the bottom end of the off shore crank spectrum. And comparing 8 second to 10 second ETs in the same vehicle is in completely different worlds!
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 02:35 AM

let me get this straight, you want to build nearly 700hp and want to cheap out on the bottom end? I think it has been well documented here many times. by the time you get a low end crank spend the money getting corrected, balanced,straighten and what ever else it may need you could have bought a K1 or equal. why waste your time and money?
Posted By: Moparpoor

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 03:02 AM

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Quote:

I would just use a factory crank. Most low end cranks will need some type of work at your cost. Put the money towards high end rods and pistons!



So even though I perform my own machine work at no cost but time an old factory crank is better than a low end supposed 4340 Chinese forging? I'm looking for people who have dealt with these cranks personally and not just opinions. I'm willing to wait for Ohio if someone speaks up with merit but if I can achieve an equal piece by reworking one of the POS cranks I will



Yes! Not saying low end cranks wont handle the job! Just saying you can do the same job with a used factory crank for $200 or less! I have used source 4.25 rb crank was a decent piece. unfortunately needed a little work on the balance and small amount of taper.Crank was almost $650 with shipping not including machine work. I use factory cranks lately often in the few 451 low decks I have pieced in various forms. From all hand me down used parts to top of the line piston and rod combos. Just saying you can save the money and use it were needed!!
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 03:27 AM

Quote:

let me get this straight, you want to build nearly 700hp and want to cheap out on the bottom end? I think it has been well documented here many times. by the time you get a low end crank spend the money getting corrected, balanced,straighten and what ever else it may need you could have bought a K1 or equal. why waste your time and money?



Let me start from the beginning again. I want a 3.900 stroke crank for RB with 2.200 rods. Only place to offer such a crank is Ohio crankshaft which they will not have available for several months along with 3.75 cranks. That leaves me with offset grinding a 3.75 crank to 3.900 as a viable option whether it be an aftermarket or a factory crank. A 4340 crank with fillets SHOULD be better than a factory 1053 crank with undercuts. Being that crankshaft grinding and balancing come at no cost to me other than my free time and any 3.75 crank I get be it a Bryant or a Procomp will be offset ground by ME. Question being, since no matter what 3.75 crank I get will be ground by me and have whatever dimensional, out of round taper issues corrected, are the cheap low end forgings comparable to the higher end (K1, molnar) aside from the finish machining that is irrelevant in this situation because it will be ground to achieve what I need, or are the forgings of these lower end cranks inferior. Remember forget about taper, roundness, blah, blah, blah, as I don't care if the journals as I receive it appear to have been finished by a 2 year old...it will be ground on rods and mains no matter what. Not trying to cheap out, just want to know if the machining/grinding is where the problems are or if it is a problem in the forging itself. That's it! Again, no matter what 3.75 crank I get will be "fixed" on both rod and main journals at no cost other than time away from family.
Think of it like this, why pay $200 for a std/std 440 crank only to grind down to B mains when you could get one with 2 spun mains for $20
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 03:48 AM

Quote:

Back to the original point of this post, disregarding everyone's opinion on what the best Chinese crank and if it's ready to run or not. IF a crank from one of the companies that has a reputation of being shyte goes directly on the crank grinder because it is going to be offset ground for more stroke and taking mains down .010 while it's there, therefore correcting any flaws, taper, out of round etc. in both rod and main journals. Would a PEP, RPM, or Procomp crank be sufficient in a 675 horse application? Or are there bigger problems with these $425 range cranks that grinding all journals, indexing, and correcting stroke will not repair such as major issues trying to achieve balance and bad thrust faces (which could be welded and repaired)?



Anything can break , if you are doing all that work yourself and can get one to do it on then go for it. It can't be any worse than a lesser material , 1053 twisted forging that is a stock crank, unless you hit a huge void grinding it down ??
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 03:53 AM

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Quote:

I would just use a factory crank. Most low end cranks will need some type of work at your cost. Put the money towards high end rods and pistons!



So even though I perform my own machine work at no cost but time an old factory crank is better than a low end supposed 4340 Chinese forging? I'm looking for people who have dealt with these cranks personally and not just opinions. I'm willing to wait for Ohio if someone speaks up with merit but if I can achieve an equal piece by reworking one of the POS cranks I will



Eagle would be on your low end I assume ? Dan Costello , Performance Only , did all the work you want to do to a circa 2003 Eagle Blem, stock stroke, RB crank I bought from Mancini for the Enginemaster build, it worked fine at over 700 HP for multiple pulls on the Pierce's Dyno.

I still have the crank for a 383 based build I may or may not ever get to ...
Posted By: fishy340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 04:05 AM

Only 675 hp any 4340 crank will hold.
Posted By: mshred

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 04:49 AM

Is everybody drunk today, or did your glasses break? LOL
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 11:41 AM

I guess sounds like he had the answer before he asked. like JohnRR said just grab any ole crank and fix it..
Posted By: mac56

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 12:10 PM

I've been using a PEP from Hughes in a 500 B-1 for 3 years now. Crack checked every year. Good so far. I tried a stock crank offset to 3.91 and it cracked the first season.
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 12:19 PM

Quote:

I guess sounds like he had the answer before he asked. like JohnRR said just grab any ole crank and fix it..



REALLY?? ALREADY HAD THE ANSWER?? How many times have I asked if the issues with the cheap low end cranks go beyond the typical rod/main journals and the only person who spoke up with any answer was JohnRR about the thrust face letting the throws clip the main web. As I stated i know K1, Molnar, and Compstar are the best and SUPPOSED to just drop right in. I'm still looking for responses from people who have used a PEP or equal crank that can say if they had issues outside of the journals. In example bent, wrong diameter snout...stuff that will not be corrected on the grinder...
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 12:26 PM

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I guess sounds like he had the answer before he asked. like JohnRR said just grab any ole crank and fix it..



REALLY?? ALREADY HAD THE ANSWER?? How many times have I asked if the issues with the cheap low end cranks go beyond the typical rod/main journals and the only person who spoke up with any answer was JohnRR about the thrust face letting the throws clip the main web. As I stated i know K1, Molnar, and Compstar are the best and SUPPOSED to just drop right in. I'm still looking for responses from people who have used a PEP or equal crank that can say if they had issues outside of the journals. In example bent, wrong diameter snout...stuff that will not be corrected on the grinder...

you already know the answer, there are all kind of issues with the cheaper line. most of which are fitment issues that can be corrected. now if you have a crank grinder and other equipment available to fix and correct all them by all means do it. if not go straight to a higher end crank that will fit your needs and save time and money. I think any of them will fill your needs once corrected. get a hold of Todd at Competition Wedge and see what he has laying around.
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 12:35 PM

Quote:

I've been using a PEP from Hughes in a 500 B-1 for 3 years now. Crack checked every year. Good so far. I tried a stock crank offset to 3.91 and it cracked the first season.



Did the PEP need much re-work before you could run it? I was reluctant to do a factory crank as the 1 guy I know that still runs them has broke 2 of them in the last 4 years in a 600 or so horse 440 bracket engine.
Thanks for chiming in with firsthand experience!
Posted By: Copper Dart

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 02:00 PM

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 02:02 PM

What crank shop do you work at and where?
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 02:20 PM

Quote:

What crank shop do you work at and where?




No disrespect at all Mr.P (as you're one of the members on here that I value your knowledge) but I'm going to choose not to disclose that as I don't want to lose my privileges to do after hours side work like this. But it is a full machine shop not just a crank shop in downriver area.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 02:42 PM

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What crank shop do you work at and where?




No disrespect at all Mr.P (as you're one of the members on here that I value your knowledge) but I'm going to choose not to disclose that as I don't want to lose my privileges to do after hours side work like this. But it is a full machine shop not just a crank shop in downriver area.



No problem... I just like to have shops in mind when
I need work done... I dont have any equipment to do
any of the block or crank work so I job that out
Posted By: mac56

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 04:57 PM

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I've been using a PEP from Hughes in a 500 B-1 for 3 years now. Crack checked every year. Good so far. I tried a stock crank offset to 3.91 and it cracked the first season.



Did the PEP need much re-work before you could run it? I was reluctant to do a factory crank as the 1 guy I know that still runs them has broke 2 of them in the last 4 years in a 600 or so horse 440 bracket engine.
Thanks for chiming in with firsthand experience!

I can't really give you the info your looking for because I done similiar to what you want to do. I took it straight to the machine shop and had the rod jourals taken down to bbc and the counterweights cut. I believe the rest checked out ok. Hope that helps.
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 05:17 PM



I can't really give you the info your looking for because I done similiar to what you want to do. I took it straight to the machine shop and had the rod jourals taken down to bbc and the counterweights cut. I believe the rest checked out ok. Hope that helps.



Sure does! Thank you for responding with a relevant answer! Are you running that in a pulling tractor? If so what RPM does that see?
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 05:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What crank shop do you work at and where?




No disrespect at all Mr.P (as you're one of the members on here that I value your knowledge) but I'm going to choose not to disclose that as I don't want to lose my privileges to do after hours side work like this. But it is a full machine shop not just a crank shop in downriver area.

now I am really puzzled, I see you are pretty new to the board so i'll give you some benefit of the doubt. but if you work at a place that does this type of work everyday shouldn't you know what to expect? something just doesn't seem right here. not trying to be an ass so I wish you luck
Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 05:50 PM

Aren't pretty much ALL the aftermarket non billet cranks forged in China these days?? Perhaps someone should compile a list of non Chinese forged cranks out there. Surely cannot take long, and given the price difference I am sure the average bracket or Mopar guy will balk at the price of the American stuff in short order.
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 05:51 PM



now I am really puzzled, I see you are pretty new to the board so i'll give you some benefit of the doubt. but if you work at a place that does this type of work everyday shouldn't you know what to expect? something just doesn't seem right here. not trying to be an ass so I wish you luck



Puzzled that in the 3 years that I've been doing this that I've never had my hands on a crank from RPM, or PEP? Its pretty obvious that based on the large amount of people (one) who have chimed in with experience with these cranks that they must be EXTREMELY popular and abundant. Not to mention never seeing them advertsed anywhere like Eagle, Scat, K1, Ohio, and Molnar. I'm actually surprised and puzzled myself! Thanks for the wish of luck...
Thanks Mac56...BTW RPM and PEP use identical part numbers with PEP having more offerings
Posted By: B1MAXX

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 06:29 PM

Quote:

I've been using a PEP from Hughes in a 500 B-1 for 3 years now. Crack checked every year. Good so far. I tried a stock crank offset to 3.91 and it cracked the first season.



I had a 3.90 stroke offset ground forged 440 crank come back cracked after a few seasons. In a pinch yep, but in my case grinding was cheap it was the balance job that hurt. Didn't foresee that one. If your doing an RB why stop at 3.90 get a longer stroke that they have in stock. By the way I currently run an Ohio and have had good results, my friends have used them also with good results. Always come back maged good.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 06:38 PM

Quote:



Puzzled that in the 3 years that I've been doing this that I've never had my hands on a crank from RPM, or PEP? Its pretty obvious that based on the large amount of people (one) who have chimed in with experience with these cranks that they must be EXTREMELY popular and abundant. Not to mention never seeing them advertsed anywhere like Eagle, Scat, K1, Ohio, and Molnar. I'm actually surprised and puzzled myself! Thanks for the wish of luck...
Thanks Mac56...BTW RPM and PEP use identical part numbers with PEP having more offerings

I bought three 4.150 stroker cranks last year, I was told they where RPM brand, one of them was in a PEP box I haven't used any of them yet, the plan is to have all of them offset ground to either 4.250 or 4.300 stroke and turn the mains and counterweights down to B motor sizes and use them in 400 blocks. My current 400 block 505 C.I. bracket has a 4.250 Ohio crank in it, the last crank in my old 518 C.I. low deck stroker motor in the Duster has a Chinese 4.150 stroke RB crank offset ground to 4.300 stroke and cut down to fit in the 400 block Lots of choices out there
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 06:44 PM

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now I am really puzzled, I see you are pretty new to the board so I'll give you some benefit of the doubt. but if you work at a place that does this type of work everyday shouldn't you know what to expect? something just doesn't seem right here. not trying to be an ass so I wish you luck



Puzzled that in the 3 years that I've been doing this that I've never had my hands on a crank from RPM, or PEP? Its pretty obvious that based on the large amount of people (one) who have chimed in with experience with these cranks that they must be EXTREMELY popular and abundant. Not to mention never seeing them advertsed anywhere like Eagle, Scat, K1, Ohio, and Molnar. I'm actually surprised and puzzled myself! Thanks for the wish of luck...
Thanks Mac56...BTW RPM and PEP use identical part numbers with PEP having more offerings



When it comes to forgings are you implying that there is high end and low end cheap chinese junk ?
Posted By: FastmOp

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 07:08 PM

I run a 440source crank in my Valiant. It's straight out of the box. It has over 120 runs in the log book. Built it 2010.
Runs 5.90's at 115 in the 1/8 at 3000#
I'm sticking a 440source crank in my alum Indy block and going to beat it every weekend next year. It will make over 1500hp at 30#s boost. It's going to hurt slowtrees feelings lol
Posted By: mac56

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 07:33 PM

Quote:



I can't really give you the info your looking for because I done similiar to what you want to do. I took it straight to the machine shop and had the rod jourals taken down to bbc and the counterweights cut. I believe the rest checked out ok. Hope that helps.



Sure does! Thank you for responding with a relevant answer! Are you running that in a pulling tractor? If so what RPM does that see?

Yes it is in a pull tractor. 7200 is the most it sees.
Posted By: dartman366

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 07:46 PM

Cannot help the OP with first hand experience with the offshore cranks, altho I have run an eagle forged crank in my 408 now for 5 years with not a problem after the journals were touched up,and the indexing corrected, but somthing tells me he is not so much interested in the size roundness ,or indexing of the crank but more interested in the diferences in a metalurgical stand point and how accurate is the chemical composition of the claimed 4340 material in these low dollar cranks.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 08:06 PM

Quote:

but somthing tells me he is not so much interested in the size roundness ,or indexing of the crank but more interested in the diferences in a metalurgical stand point and how accurate is the chemical composition of the claimed 4340 material in these low dollar cranks.



With a show of hands how many people are going to pony up and have a crank they paid $458 for tested for those properties to make sure thye are getting what they paid for ????

Posted By: RobX4406

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 08:08 PM

Quote:

I'm sticking a 440source crank in my alum Indy block and going to beat it every weekend next year. It will make over 1500hp at 30#s boost. It's going to hurt slowtrees feelings lol




Run some I beam rods as well and go for a two-fer...
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 08:18 PM

Quote:

Cannot help the OP with first hand experience with the offshore cranks, altho I have run an eagle forged crank in my 408 now for 5 years with not a problem after the journals were touched up,and the indexing corrected, but somthing tells me he is not so much interested in the size roundness ,or indexing of the crank but more interested in the diferences in a metalurgical stand point and how accurate is the chemical composition of the claimed 4340 material in these low dollar cranks.



That and how they stackup against the "superior level" offshore pieces once journal issues are corrected (90% of the complaints on these are journal related). Once ground are they an equal piece or are there multiple foundries providing forgings of different quality levels for the crank manufacturers. But with Mac56 spinning to 7200 with a B1 headed combo they appear to be decent once someone with skill does a precision grind on them. I have an eagle 4.15 crank that needed polishing on the rod journals to remove taper, stroke was actually 4.152, I recently did a 4.125 small block K1 crank for a friend, took 2.000 sbc rod journals to 1.889 Quad 4 so again the condition of the rod jounals meant squat in that situation even though K1 is rumored to be spot on.
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 08:25 PM




With a show of hands how many people are going to pony up and have a crank they paid $458 for tested for those properties to make sure thye are getting what they paid for ????





Im sure some people within ths hobby have professional level careers and work for companies that can perform metallurgical testing. Not seeing where the humor is?
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 08:27 PM


Puzzled that in the 3 years that I've been doing this that I've never had my hands on a crank from RPM, or PEP? Its pretty obvious that based on the large amount of people (one) who have chimed in with experience with these cranks that they must be EXTREMELY popular and abundant. Not to mention never seeing them advertsed anywhere like Eagle, Scat, K1, Ohio, and Molnar. I'm actually surprised and puzzled myself! Thanks for the wish of luck...
Thanks Mac56...BTW RPM and PEP use identical part numbers with PEP having more offerings




I hate to say this, but three years isnt very long in this business....it wouldnt surprise me if you didnt see any of those...


PEP and RPM are not the same company. PEP is in Nevada, RPM is California. They use the same part numbers, but that was from years ago when they were basically the same deal( cranks) They are not any longer.

I would have to say, I have seen ALMOST every brand of crank imaginable. I may have missed something, but I am not sure what it would be.I have never done an actual rockwell, or metallurgical test on a crank, or varying cranks. Just no need to . I can say, that the last couple of RPM cranks I have seen, have been surprisingly excellent in both sizing and stroke index. I have sold several to another member here, who also run an engine shop, and the results were extremely pleasing. I can also say, I had some about 5 years ago that I would consider fair. RPM will allow you, as a dealer, to buy them oversized, and leave enough meat on them so you can grind to desired specs, or they will have a guy they hire out, in Cali, do a " race grind". You have to buy them in dealer quanities however.They are one of the companies who seem to have Mopar stock almsot all the time though, Chevy guys use tons of them, with good results.

It really is a mute point arguing all this. Unless you are going to buy a Bryant, LA, Winberg, or Callies, then what does it matter? Your going to have to make a decision on what offshore crank you buy then, regardless, so why bicker about it all. You'll still have a offshore crank. I cannot say one way or another, if Ohio is really forged in Ohio. At the price they sell at, I find it VERY hard to believe. I'll do some research on that. As far as others, I'll take Comstar,Molnar and K1 before the others, when your in that price range. 99% of the time the sizing is better. Eagle has been hot and miss every since I have been building engines. Some size well, many dont, then you get a streak of really nice ones. I can say, they do seem to be a tough piece, as I have never had one break. Scat is nice, but a bit pricey for the average Joe, when it comes to their standard offering. I feel their shipping and distribution s poor in my opinion.

The bottom line is, if your looking for price, then you have to live with the hand your dealt. Knowing all the nuances and balancing aspects is simply something you see day to day as a builder, and the average Joe may not. You see things that often are not posted by the owners, as sometimes they are embarrased, or simply they dont want to feel the wrath of their peers on the website, but trust me, there are a lot more issues than you read about, and a lot more people who wish they had made another choice on crank selection, after they have to fix them, or regind and or balance. It just comes down to trust of your builder,funds, and what compromises your willing to , or have to make. There is no one good answer, but there is always a lot of bad or mis-information about cranks and rods.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 09:02 PM

I've had problems with the nose on the cheap Chinese cranks being too small. If it is too small then the damper just slips on and there isn't really a good fix for that.
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 09:12 PM

Quote:

I've had problems with the nose on the cheap Chinese cranks being too small. If it is too small then the damper just slips on and there isn't really a good fix for that.



More valid and relevant info. Thanks!
Good to know, repairing that far out weighs the cost saving...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 09:15 PM

Quote:


Puzzled that in the 3 years that I've been doing this that I've never had my hands on a crank from RPM, or PEP? Its pretty obvious that based on the large amount of people (one) who have chimed in with experience with these cranks that they must be EXTREMELY popular and abundant. Not to mention never seeing them advertsed anywhere like Eagle, Scat, K1, Ohio, and Molnar. I'm actually surprised and puzzled myself! Thanks for the wish of luck...
Thanks Mac56...BTW RPM and PEP use identical part numbers with PEP having more offerings




I hate to say this, but three years isnt very long in this business....it wouldnt surprise me if you didnt see any of those...


PEP and RPM are not the same company. PEP is in Nevada, RPM is California. They use the same part numbers, but that was from years ago when they were basically the same deal( cranks) They are not any longer.

I would have to say, I have seen ALMOST every brand of crank imaginable. I may have missed something, but I am not sure what it would be.I have never done an actual rockwell, or metallurgical test on a crank, or varying cranks. Just no need to . I can say, that the last couple of RPM cranks I have seen, have been surprisingly excellent in both sizing and stroke index. I have sold several to another member here, who also run an engine shop, and the results were extremely pleasing. I can also say, I had some about 5 years ago that I would consider fair. RPM will allow you, as a dealer, to buy them oversized, and leave enough meat on them so you can grind to desired specs, or they will have a guy they hire out, in Cali, do a " race grind". You have to buy them in dealer quanities however.They are one of the companies who seem to have Mopar stock almsot all the time though, Chevy guys use tons of them, with good results.

It really is a mute point arguing all this. Unless you are going to buy a Bryant, LA, Winberg, or Callies, then what does it matter? Your going to have to make a decision on what offshore crank you buy then, regardless, so why bicker about it all. You'll still have a offshore crank. I cannot say one way or another, if Ohio is really forged in Ohio. At the price they sell at, I find it VERY hard to believe. I'll do some research on that. As far as others, I'll take Comstar,Molnar and K1 before the others, when your in that price range. 99% of the time the sizing is better. Eagle has been hot and miss every since I have been building engines. Some size well, many dont, then you get a streak of really nice ones. I can say, they do seem to be a tough piece, as I have never had one break. Scat is nice, but a bit pricey for the average Joe, when it comes to their standard offering. I feel their shipping and distribution s poor in my opinion.

The bottom line is, if your looking for price, then you have to live with the hand your dealt. Knowing all the nuances and balancing aspects is simply something you see day to day as a builder, and the average Joe may not. You see things that often are not posted by the owners, as sometimes they are embarrased, or simply they dont want to feel the wrath of their peers on the website, but trust me, there are a lot more issues than you read about, and a lot more people who wish they had made another choice on crank selection, after they have to fix them, or regind and or balance. It just comes down to trust of your builder,funds, and what compromises your willing to , or have to make. There is no one good answer, but there is always a lot of bad or mis-information about cranks and rods.





I think you are missing what the op was trying to figure out...at least I think...

When you say you would choose a compstar, K1, or Molnar crank over other similar priced cranks, is it just because they are finish sized better....or are they made out of a better raw forging ? Does Molnar, K1, Compstar have better quality systems in place to insure they are being manufactured properly, or are they all basically the same forgings, just machined to closer tolerances, more consistently than say, an Eagle crank ?

I believe PEP is who hughes uses, and probably muscle motors in their "kits".
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 10:19 PM

Quote:

I run a 440source crank in my Valiant. It's straight out of the box. It has over 120 runs in the log book. Built it 2010.
Runs 5.90's at 115 in the 1/8 at 3000#
I'm sticking a 440source crank in my alum Indy block and going to beat it every weekend next year. It will make over 1500hp at 30#s boost. It's going to hurt slowtrees feelings lol


is that right, so you are going to risk a #5K aluminum block on a $300 crank sounds like a heck of a combo, let us know how that works out. and you will need all that boost because right now I am .2 and 5 mph faster than you with a small flat tappet cam. i figure a cam change and a 100 shot would just about dust your britches there slomop
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/10/14 10:41 PM

Quote:


Puzzled that in the 3 years that I've been doing this that I've never had my hands on a crank from RPM, or PEP? Its pretty obvious that based on the large amount of people (one) who have chimed in with experience with these cranks that they must be EXTREMELY popular and abundant. Not to mention never seeing them advertsed anywhere like Eagle, Scat, K1, Ohio, and Molnar. I'm actually surprised and puzzled myself! Thanks for the wish of luck...
Thanks Mac56...BTW RPM and PEP use identical part numbers with PEP having more offerings




I hate to say this, but three years isnt very long in this business....it wouldnt surprise me if you didnt see any of those...


PEP and RPM are not the same company. PEP is in Nevada, RPM is California. They use the same part numbers, but that was from years ago when they were basically the same deal( cranks) They are not any longer.

I would have to say, I have seen ALMOST every brand of crank imaginable. I may have missed something, but I am not sure what it would be.I have never done an actual rockwell, or metallurgical test on a crank, or varying cranks. Just no need to . I can say, that the last couple of RPM cranks I have seen, have been surprisingly excellent in both sizing and stroke index. I have sold several to another member here, who also run an engine shop, and the results were extremely pleasing. I can also say, I had some about 5 years ago that I would consider fair. RPM will allow you, as a dealer, to buy them oversized, and leave enough meat on them so you can grind to desired specs, or they will have a guy they hire out, in Cali, do a " race grind". You have to buy them in dealer quanities however.They are one of the companies who seem to have Mopar stock almsot all the time though, Chevy guys use tons of them, with good results.

It really is a mute point arguing all this. Unless you are going to buy a Bryant, LA, Winberg, or Callies, then what does it matter? Your going to have to make a decision on what offshore crank you buy then, regardless, so why bicker about it all. You'll still have a offshore crank. I cannot say one way or another, if Ohio is really forged in Ohio. At the price they sell at, I find it VERY hard to believe. I'll do some research on that. As far as others, I'll take Comstar,Molnar and K1 before the others, when your in that price range. 99% of the time the sizing is better. Eagle has been hot and miss every since I have been building engines. Some size well, many dont, then you get a streak of really nice ones. I can say, they do seem to be a tough piece, as I have never had one break. Scat is nice, but a bit pricey for the average Joe, when it comes to their standard offering. I feel their shipping and distribution s poor in my opinion.

The bottom line is, if your looking for price, then you have to live with the hand your dealt. Knowing all the nuances and balancing aspects is simply something you see day to day as a builder, and the average Joe may not. You see things that often are not posted by the owners, as sometimes they are embarrased, or simply they dont want to feel the wrath of their peers on the website, but trust me, there are a lot more issues than you read about, and a lot more people who wish they had made another choice on crank selection, after they have to fix them, or regind and or balance. It just comes down to trust of your builder,funds, and what compromises your willing to , or have to make. There is no one good answer, but there is always a lot of bad or mis-information about cranks and rods.



thanks Todd for stepping up and giving some good insight on the subject. you know now that Dans gone I think your next on the list to share your knowledge and real world experience. lots of shops out here but very rarely share.
Posted By: 496 A-body

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 11:57 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm sticking a 440source crank in my alum Indy block and going to beat it every weekend next year. It will make over 1500hp at 30#s boost. It's going to hurt slowtrees feelings lol




Run some I beam rods as well and go for a two-fer...



Is there a problem with I beam rods?
Posted By: kielbasa

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 12:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Puzzled that in the 3 years that I've been doing this that I've never had my hands on a crank from RPM, or PEP? Its pretty obvious that based on the large amount of people (one) who have chimed in with experience with these cranks that they must be EXTREMELY popular and abundant. Not to mention never seeing them advertsed anywhere like Eagle, Scat, K1, Ohio, and Molnar. I'm actually surprised and puzzled myself! Thanks for the wish of luck...
Thanks Mac56...BTW RPM and PEP use identical part numbers with PEP having more offerings




I hate to say this, but three years isnt very long in this business....it wouldnt surprise me if you didnt see any of those...


PEP and RPM are not the same company. PEP is in Nevada, RPM is California. They use the same part numbers, but that was from years ago when they were basically the same deal( cranks) They are not any longer.

I would have to say, I have seen ALMOST every brand of crank imaginable. I may have missed something, but I am not sure what it would be.I have never done an actual rockwell, or metallurgical test on a crank, or varying cranks. Just no need to . I can say, that the last couple of RPM cranks I have seen, have been surprisingly excellent in both sizing and stroke index. I have sold several to another member here, who also run an engine shop, and the results were extremely pleasing. I can also say, I had some about 5 years ago that I would consider fair. RPM will allow you, as a dealer, to buy them oversized, and leave enough meat on them so you can grind to desired specs, or they will have a guy they hire out, in Cali, do a " race grind". You have to buy them in dealer quanities however.They are one of the companies who seem to have Mopar stock almsot all the time though, Chevy guys use tons of them, with good results.

It really is a mute point arguing all this. Unless you are going to buy a Bryant, LA, Winberg, or Callies, then what does it matter? Your going to have to make a decision on what offshore crank you buy then, regardless, so why bicker about it all. You'll still have a offshore crank. I cannot say one way or another, if Ohio is really forged in Ohio. At the price they sell at, I find it VERY hard to believe. I'll do some research on that. As far as others, I'll take Comstar,Molnar and K1 before the others, when your in that price range. 99% of the time the sizing is better. Eagle has been hot and miss every since I have been building engines. Some size well, many dont, then you get a streak of really nice ones. I can say, they do seem to be a tough piece, as I have never had one break. Scat is nice, but a bit pricey for the average Joe, when it comes to their standard offering. I feel their shipping and distribution s poor in my opinion.

The bottom line is, if your looking for price, then you have to live with the hand your dealt. Knowing all the nuances and balancing aspects is simply something you see day to day as a builder, and the average Joe may not. You see things that often are not posted by the owners, as sometimes they are embarrased, or simply they dont want to feel the wrath of their peers on the website, but trust me, there are a lot more issues than you read about, and a lot more people who wish they had made another choice on crank selection, after they have to fix them, or regind and or balance. It just comes down to trust of your builder,funds, and what compromises your willing to , or have to make. There is no one good answer, but there is always a lot of bad or mis-information about cranks and rods.





I think you are missing what the op was trying to figure out...at least I think...

When you say you would choose a compstar, K1, or Molnar crank over other similar priced cranks, is it just because they are finish sized better....or are they made out of a better raw forging ? Does Molnar, K1, Compstar have better quality systems in place to insure they are being manufactured properly, or are they all basically the same forgings, just machined to closer tolerances, more consistently than say, an Eagle crank ?

I believe PEP is who hughes uses, and probably muscle motors in their "kits".



Yes! I also believe this is what the OP is asking about. Seems like a valid question to me. But it really hasn't been answered yet!
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 02:37 PM

That is why I stated I have NOT done any actual metallurgical tests on these types of cranks. I honestly just don't see the need to do it on a 700-$800 crank,if that makes sense? A stock forged crank with straight undercut journals will survive ( for quite a while,depending on application) at 600 HP. Once you start cutting them,revving them,flexing them,then the cracks begin. The. 125 radius of a aftermarket crank greatly improves the strength in that filet area. As far as material or metal compsition? Wow,hard to say. The offshore cranks are all forged by 2 or 3 forging houses in China. When you contract to them,you basically negotiate a price,and design. The problem is,how do you KNOW your getting the product you contracted for,unless you have someone" on the ground" at the factory. Some of the larger manufacturers have,or can hire,a agent,or inspector if you will,to keep an eye on the process'. Also keep in mind,you can get better quality products,at a higher cost. Everything has a price. Including material inspection. Again,how much are you willing to pay for a offshore crank? How much extra" technology" does there need to be in copying an already stout stock OEM piece,and adding a few features that are basic engineering accepted upgrades?
The offshore offerings,like them or not,have made it affordable for thousands of Mopar owners to build a much better engine. I wish,like almost everyone,we could afford to have an all American budget crank and rod offering. It will never happen,in part to simple EPA restrictions. So,for now,we just choose from whatever your budget dictates. If someone wants to,or cares to spend the money to do research on what offshore crank has better materials,that would be great. I just don't see the practicality.
It still comes down to knowing,in the real World,what environment the cranks are,and have been capable of living in,and how the journal sizing and fit and finish end up. The heavy metal and balancing concerns aren't the cranks fault,that's a result of the combination that was chosen.

Ok,that's a lot of typing on my phone screen! Carry on......
Posted By: 496 A-body

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 03:50 PM

I believe there could be an affordable American forged 4340 crank if Mopar demand were equal to Chevy, but we know that will never be. Look at the Track Smart crank available from Howards Cams. Comparable pricing to Molnar and they say they are American made. But just being American made doesnt necessarily ensure quality, MP stage 6 heads for example
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 04:35 PM

We could only wish!

To the best of my knowledge, Howards does use mostly Louisville/Kentucky forgings for their cranks, and then have Callies do the finish work. The cranks that I have seen/used from them have been nice.

The caveat however is, they have Tracksmart and TRacksmart 3 cranks. I think the " 3" cranks are offshore forgings. People often intermingle the two when quoting prices. I would be shocked if they could affford to even do SBC 4340 forgings at the $700 sell price, after paying for the machining. The one huge advantage is however, the shipping costs. If they dont have to pay a shipper from China, and related taxes and fees to import, perhaps that could make the difference. There is also the " made 100% in America" statement.That can be tricky to maneauver, as at a certain point, once a priduct is significantly machined or altered, it CAN BE advertised as 100% American made. I will make some phone calls and see what I can find out. Its interesting if nothing else.

I also know a crankshaft manufacter, that can tell, or has access to information that tells who is importing crank forgings into the US. He can see who is and isnt bringing in offshore cores.I havent ever asked about the Track Smart series, and it wouldnt help, because if they were bringing in any forgings, it may be hard to tell what series crank they are for.

As a rule, Howards has always been a stand up group of people, and most of their products seem to be a good value.By the numbers, they probably could care less about getting into the Mopar market, other than camshafts. Also, talk to the crank and rod companies, and they will tell you the crank is the least profitable piece. They really need/want to sell a set of rods along with a crank to make any money.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 05:24 PM

Quote:

That is why I stated I have NOT done any actual metallurgical tests on these types of cranks. I honestly just don't see the need to do it on a 700-$800 crank,if that makes sense? A stock forged crank with straight undercut journals will survive ( for quite a while,depending on application) at 600 HP. Once you start cutting them,revving them,flexing them,then the cracks begin. The. 125 radius of a aftermarket crank greatly improves the strength in that filet area. As far as material or metal compsition? Wow,hard to say. The offshore cranks are all forged by 2 or 3 forging houses in China. When you contract to them,you basically negotiate a price,and design. The problem is,how do you KNOW your getting the product you contracted for,unless you have someone" on the ground" at the factory. Some of the larger manufacturers have,or can hire,a agent,or inspector if you will,to keep an eye on the process'. Also keep in mind,you can get better quality products,at a higher cost. Everything has a price. Including material inspection. Again,how much are you willing to pay for a offshore crank? How much extra" technology" does there need to be in copying an already stout stock OEM piece,and adding a few features that are basic engineering accepted upgrades?
The offshore offerings,like them or not,have made it affordable for thousands of Mopar owners to build a much better engine. I wish,like almost everyone,we could afford to have an all American budget crank and rod offering. It will never happen,in part to simple EPA restrictions. So,for now,we just choose from whatever your budget dictates. If someone wants to,or cares to spend the money to do research on what offshore crank has better materials,that would be great. I just don't see the practicality.
It still comes down to knowing,in the real World,what environment the cranks are,and have been capable of living in,and how the journal sizing and fit and finish end up. The heavy metal and balancing concerns aren't the cranks fault,that's a result of the combination that was chosen.

Ok,that's a lot of typing on my phone screen! Carry on......



I don't think anyone ever suggested or expected each individual machine shop to conduct metallurgical tests.....

When you place Molnar and K1 at the top of your quality chart....Why ??....is it because of the closer and more consistent finished tolerances ?...Or is it because it is a better forging ?

I am sure ISO9000 or the like has made it to china.....where there is a quality control/assurance process in place.....So do Molnar and K1 have some proprietary formula/process for ensuring a better quality forging ? Or are most chinese forgings the same, it's just who finish machines them better ?
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 05:53 PM




I don't think anyone ever suggested or expected each individual machine shop to conduct metallurgical tests.....

When you place Molnar and K1 at the top of your quality chart....Why ??....is it because of the closer and more consistent finished tolerances ?...Or is it because it is a better forging ?

I am sure ISO9000 or the like has made it to china.....where there is a quality control/assurance process in place.....So do Molnar and K1 have some proprietary formula/process for ensuring a better quality forging ? Or are most chinese forgings the same, it's just who finish machines them better ?



56 posts in and someone finally recognized the first question from the opening post in the thread. However Ive come to the realization that only someone directly connected to Chinese crank manufacturing can answer this although I had hoped otherwise. Im just shocked that someone other than myself hasnt wondered this and investigated it and shared the info prior to 2014. (Maybe Im just letting my curiosity get the best of me) Lots of opinions chiming in and saying they are junk which is fine, but explain what makes them junk and if its journal finish, who cares as it is irrelevant in this situation. Other than AndyF stating that he has found small snout diameters which led to the damper not being a press fit therefore negating its proper function there has not been a lot of negative feedback validating that they are indeed junk. I have heard of a lot of these forged cranks breaking but in every case it sounded like it was due to improper clearances due to poor finish work, but could also have been due to excessive harmonics from the poor damper fit. Not much info floating around to say if the raw forgings are all equal or not.
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 05:56 PM

Its simply the fit and finish is usually right, and if there is a problem, I can talk directly to the owner. No run around, we solve the problem. I know what to expect, I know the weights, I know what they are capable of ( thru experience)and I can talk to an engineer directly. These are issues that are FAR more important when building, then wondering what the properties of the forging material are ( for these instances at least). Rarely does a shop get a crankshaft in that " just broke". There is always a reason why they break, and I have never seen a crankshaft that IS broke, that didnt have a logical or obvious reason. Thats why I am steering away from the whole material issue. It just isnt a noteworthy issue, unless you HAVE TO know for your own good. Again, we are talkin 600-700HP build, so that why this simple approach is relevant.Whats more important, is whether or not the sizing is right and the journals are round with no taper, filets are true, so that a bearing doesnt get beat out of the assembly, then you WILL have a bad crank.

I also do blown alky motors. I STILL dont care what the metalurgical qualities of the crank are. I 100% trust Winberg and Bryant, and I could have those tested as well, but then what? Same with something lesser, say fast bracket or top sportsman kind of deal. If I buy a Callies, I trust them as well. Time vs cost vs value vs reality. Somewhere you need to logically balance all that out.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 06:05 PM

You did say in your original post that you could grind a factory crank so I was giving "real world" info on my 14 years of thrashing mine..............
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 06:11 PM

Quote:




I don't think anyone ever suggested or expected each individual machine shop to conduct metallurgical tests.....

When you place Molnar and K1 at the top of your quality chart....Why ??....is it because of the closer and more consistent finished tolerances ?...Or is it because it is a better forging ?

I am sure ISO9000 or the like has made it to china.....where there is a quality control/assurance process in place.....So do Molnar and K1 have some proprietary formula/process for ensuring a better quality forging ? Or are most chinese forgings the same, it's just who finish machines them better ?



56 posts in and someone finally recognized the first question from the opening post in the thread. However Ive come to the realization that only someone directly connected to Chinese crank manufacturing can answer this although I had hoped otherwise. Im just shocked that someone other than myself hasnt wondered this and investigated it and shared the info prior to 2014. (Maybe Im just letting my curiosity get the best of me) Lots of opinions chiming in and saying they are junk which is fine, but explain what makes them junk and if its journal finish, who cares as it is irrelevant in this situation. Other than AndyF stating that he has found small snout diameters which led to the damper not being a press fit therefore negating its proper function there has not been a lot of negative feedback validating that they are indeed junk. I have heard of a lot of these forged cranks breaking but in every case it sounded like it was due to improper clearances due to poor finish work, but could also have been due to excessive harmonics from the poor damper fit. Not much info floating around to say if the raw forgings are all equal or not.




So if you WERE armed with that information, then what? I tried to give a simple, short explanation as to how the crank forging business works overseas. I am certain there is someone with a more detailed story to tell. Maybe Rod can chime in, as he deals direct with a broker or forging house. I just yesterday was ordering some more cranks, and we exactly discussed some of this. I absolutley understood what you were questioning, but I dont understand what you are going to do when armed with the information from 3 or 4 different offshore manufacters? ANY of them will far outhandle your needs. What would be interesting, is if you called each manufacter and got THEIR story, as to how they see their forging quality as compared to their competitiors. That would be fun.

As far as crank snout sizing, that can be all over the place. Its why every damper must be checked for fitment and sizing. I havent experienced the problem Andy saw, and I would like to know how many cranks he saw this on, and what brand? Most of the dampers I use, almost always require honing of material OUT of them to make them fit, which is the way it should be. If a crank snout was too small, then I'd just get a hub done a few thousandths undersize, and be done . If its a budget crank, then theres the roll of the dice again, and the reason I stated above, I use certain brands. I know what I am going to get. I do have an offer from someone here to test some cranks, based on thos conversation. We'll see if thats finacially feasible to ship some cranks around.
Posted By: dartman366

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 06:15 PM

Quote:




I don't think anyone ever suggested or expected each individual machine shop to conduct metallurgical tests.....

When you place Molnar and K1 at the top of your quality chart....Why ??....is it because of the closer and more consistent finished tolerances ?...Or is it because it is a better forging ?

I am sure ISO9000 or the like has made it to china.....where there is a quality control/assurance process in place.....So do Molnar and K1 have some proprietary formula/process for ensuring a better quality forging ? Or are most chinese forgings the same, it's just who finish machines them better ?



56 posts in and someone finally recognized the first question from the opening post in the thread. However Ive come to the realization that only someone directly connected to Chinese crank manufacturing can answer this although I had hoped otherwise. Im just shocked that someone other than myself hasnt wondered this and investigated it and shared the info prior to 2014. (Maybe Im just letting my curiosity get the best of me) Lots of opinions chiming in and saying they are junk which is fine, but explain what makes them junk and if its journal finish, who cares as it is irrelevant in this situation. Other than AndyF stating that he has found small snout diameters which led to the damper not being a press fit therefore negating its proper function there has not been a lot of negative feedback validating that they are indeed junk. I have heard of a lot of these forged cranks breaking but in every case it sounded like it was due to improper clearances due to poor finish work, but could also have been due to excessive harmonics from the poor damper fit. Not much info floating around to say if the raw forgings are all equal or not.

This has been a curiosity of mine for many years since my line of work has been closely tied to metalurgy of various materials, I have seen a difference in machinability of various materials the were supposed to be the same, I am now a pipe fitter for a welder here at the shop and a lot of fittings like elbows and pipe reducers seem to have a variation in hardness, this is apparent when I go to scribe all part and serial numbers on the pipe spools and some seem soft and etch real easily others are so hard that you have to go over the etching several times just to get it to take and be readable,so this makes me curious,all the pipe and fittings are all 316/316L material as required by the oil and gas industry, 99% of all the material comes from china, unless a customer requests non-china materials,,,,,thats why I wonder about material metalurgy from offshore suppliers.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 06:17 PM

Quote:

Its simply the fit and finish is usually right, and if there is a problem, I can talk directly to the owner. No run around, we solve the problem. I know what to expect, I know the weights, I know what they are capable of ( thru experience)and I can talk to an engineer directly. These are issues that are FAR more important when building, then wondering what the properties of the forging material are ( for these instances at least). Rarely does a shop get a crankshaft in that " just broke". There is always a reason why they break, and I have never seen a crankshaft that IS broke, that didnt have a logical or obvious reason. Thats why I am steering away from the whole material issue. It just isnt a noteworthy issue, unless you HAVE TO know for your own good. Again, we are talkin 600-700HP build, so that why this simple approach is relevant.Whats more important, is whether or not the sizing is right and the journals are round with no taper, filets are true, so that a bearing doesnt get beat out of the assembly, then you WILL have a bad crank.

I also do blown alky motors. I STILL dont care what the metalurgical qualities of the crank are. I 100% trust Winberg and Bryant, and I could have those tested as well, but then what? Same with something lesser, say fast bracket or top sportsman kind of deal. If I buy a Callies, I trust them as well. Time vs cost vs value vs reality. Somewhere you need to logically balance all that out.



Ok, so to try and sum up what you don't seem to want to come out and say is.....the $800 and under cranks are the same quality, probably made in the same factory....but the Molnar/K1/Compstar are finish machined with closer more consistent tolerances.....so if you are going to have the sizing, taper, and indexing checked/corrected anyway, might as well buy the cheaper crank....
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 06:34 PM



Ok, so to try and sum up what you don't seem to want to come out and say is.....the $800 and under cranks are the same quality, probably made in the same factory....but the Molnar/K1/Compstar are finish machined with closer more consistent tolerances.....so if you are going to have the sizing, taper, and indexing checked/corrected anyway, might as well buy the cheaper crank....



Exactly what Im wanting to know, If the $450 crank will have the sizing, taper, and indexing checked/corrected, the only reason that would sway me to get the higher end crank is if the raw forging was superior and was proven not to have issues arise that the low end crank likely would. If it will be an equal piece once sizing, taper, and indexing checked/corrected I guess I dont see the point of starting with the higher end piece. Like my earlier analogy of why use a std/std 440 crank for a 451 build when you could get one with a damaged main journal
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 07:16 PM

Exactly what Im wanting to know, If the $450 crank will have the sizing, taper, and indexing checked/corrected, the only reason that would sway me to get the higher end crank is if the raw forging was superior and was proven not to have issues arise that the low end crank likely would. If it will be an equal piece once sizing, taper, and indexing checked/corrected I guess I dont see the point of starting with the higher end piece. Like my earlier analogy of why use a std/std 440 crank for a 451 build when you could get one with a damaged main journal



You have already answered your own question... buy
the cheapest crank you can... your gonna cut it..
and you will never know (for fact) what the steel
really is.. some have already stated that the cheapo
crank worked for them... your gonna have to go with
what the company says the steel is.. and in the end
you really dont need a super strong crank at the
power level your looking at... you had 1 guy say the
snout was a issue but I dont think he said what company
and that can be corrected with a smaller damper hub
Posted By: mr_340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 07:55 PM

http://www.koslow.com/metal_test_kits/1900.html

Anyone have $430 and access to cranks from the various manufacturers?
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 08:43 PM

Put a Callies crank and a Chinese crank side by side on a crank grinder or a lathe and you'll feel the difference in how they cut. The box says 4340 for both of them but they don't cut the same.
Posted By: 496 A-body

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 08:50 PM

Quote:

get a hold of Todd at Competition Wedge and see what he has laying around.



Todd at Comp Wedge recently quoted me the same crank the OP is in need of in the RPM brand. I have heard from several reliable sources that they are equal to or slightly better than an eagle most of the time.
Posted By: Oyvind Mopar

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 11:02 PM

Can anybody tell me where to find a 450$ 4340 Mopar crank? I tried but the so called cheap cranks are around 700$ Do I miss something?

Please also note that when you grind this new crank the nitriding will be gone, so you WILL loose something. Maybe simpler to start with a stock (cheap) crank? The fillet radius will be on the inside where you grind it, where it matters. I made a 3.9" out of a 440 crank now in a 470, and got nice fillets all over except from the overside of the rod journals. My
Posted By: JLaSalle

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 11:08 PM

I should probably keep my mouth shut,but my RPM 3.90 crank has performed flawlessy for about 5 years.At least 600 low 10 sec. passes at 3,400 lbs.

I was slightly reluctant to use it, as it was the first chinese crank I bought, but we do what we gotta do.Oh and my machinist had no complaints about the crank.I would'nt hesitate to get another one.

Attached picture 8205284-rps20140711_141013_961.jpg
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 11:13 PM

Quote:

Can anybody tell me where to find a 450$ 4340 Mopar crank? I tried but the so called cheap cranks are around 700$ Do I miss something?

Please also note that when you grind this new crank the nitriding will be gone, so you WILL loose something. Maybe simpler to start with a stock (cheap) crank? The fillet radius will be on the inside where you grind it, where it matters. I made a 3.9" out of a 440 crank now in a 470, and got nice fillets all over except from the overside of the rod journals. My



Procomp $437 from Jegs with NHRA discount
Pep $499 at Hughes
RPM $499 at Competition Products

UPDATE...HUGHES jacked price up to $695 sometime in the last month or so
Posted By: GTS340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/11/14 11:20 PM

Quote:

get a hold of Todd at Competition Wedge and see what he has laying around.



Todd at Comp Wedge recently quoted me the same crank the OP is in need of in the RPM brand. I have heard from several reliable sources that they are equal to or slightly better than an eagle most of the time.



There is no 3.900 stroke 413-440 listing on the RPM website. Todd how much $?
PM me if more comfortable
Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/12/14 03:31 AM

Quote:

Put a Callies crank and a Chinese crank side by side on a crank grinder or a lathe and you'll feel the difference in how they cut. The box says 4340 for both of them but they don't cut the same.



How about Callies and Callies Compstar Line...????

Rickster
Posted By: dartman366

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/13/14 04:14 AM

Quote:

Put a Callies crank and a Chinese crank side by side on a crank grinder or a lathe and you'll feel the difference in how they cut. The box says 4340 for both of them but they don't cut the same.

that was what I was talking about before, supposed same material but there are the differences that you speak of.
Posted By: mr_340

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/13/14 07:17 AM

Quote:

Put a Callies crank and a Chinese crank side by side on a crank grinder or a lathe and you'll feel the difference in how they cut. The box says 4340 for both of them but they don't cut the same.



The mechanical properties in the EMJ Blue Book show hardnesses for 4340 ranging from 31HRC to 55HRC. I'll post a copy of the PDF if this site will allow it. Look around page 17 or so for 4340.

Attached File
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/13/14 10:29 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Put a Callies crank and a Chinese crank side by side on a crank grinder or a lathe and you'll feel the difference in how they cut. The box says 4340 for both of them but they don't cut the same.



The mechanical properties in the EMJ Blue Book show hardnesses for 4340 ranging from 31HRC to 55HRC. I'll post a copy of the PDF if this site will allow it. Look around page 17 or so for 4340.

and then you have chinese 4340
Posted By: Cheatham

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/13/14 04:08 PM

Muscle Motors put a RPM 4.5 crank in my shortblock Mike said as long as i dont try to spin it up in the 8000rpm range it would be just fine.
Posted By: FastmOp

Re: Chinese forged cranks - 07/13/14 05:08 PM

Garlits went 200+ MPH with stock junk in the 60's
Any 4340 crank is better then stock.
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