Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised!

Posted By: Dragula

Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/06/14 04:53 PM

Billet heads:

http://www.highhorseperformance.com/HHP_Billet_Victory_Cylinder_Head_p/victory1.htm

[image]http://www.highhorseperformance.com/HHP_Billet_Victory_Cylinder_Head_p/victory1.htm[/image]

Posted By: MattW

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/06/14 05:42 PM

WoW and the price is WOW. lol
Now if we can only get a block that will take a big enough bore for those heads

Matt

Is that per head or for two?

Posted By: nhramark

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/06/14 05:50 PM

Well it says cylinder "head" bare, so I'm guessing that's per each. I like where it says it's Jesel rocker ready, better have some serious coin to go this route.....

Posted By: STEFF

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/06/14 05:51 PM

Very Cool!! Would love to see someone build a "No Expense Spared" Max Effort deal with them. Billet heads of any kind are expensive. And so are the caliber of engines they go on. Not for the "budget" minded.

Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/06/14 06:04 PM

Quote:

Well it says cylinder "head" bare, so I'm guessing that's per each. I like where it says it's Jesel rocker ready, better have some serious coin to go this route.....

Yep.... �Item listing includes quantity one (1) Billet Cylinder Head

Rickster

Posted By: 1Fast340

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/06/14 06:22 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Well it says cylinder "head" bare, so I'm guessing that's per each. I like where it says it's Jesel rocker ready, better have some serious coin to go this route.....

Yep.... �Item listing includes quantity one (1) Billet Cylinder Head

Rickster

hey now dont get all upsett just tell the wife they where on sale and everything should be ok,see you actualy save money by getting them!

List Price: $4,699.95
Our Price: $4,399.95
Sale Price: $3,999.95
You save $700.00!

get the Jesel rockers aswell and you will save even more:

List Price: $4,500.00
Our Price: $4,500.00
Sale Price: $4,350.00
You save $150.00!

Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/06/14 06:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Well it says cylinder "head" bare, so I'm guessing that's per each. I like where it says it's Jesel rocker ready, better have some serious coin to go this route.....

Yep.... �Item listing includes quantity one (1) Billet Cylinder Head

Rickster

hey now dont get all upsett just tell the wife they where on sale and everything should be ok,see you actualy save money by getting them!

List Price: $4,699.95
Our Price: $4,399.95
Sale Price: $3,999.95
You save $700.00!

get the Jesel rockers aswell and you will save even more:

List Price: $4,500.00
Our Price: $4,500.00
Sale Price: $4,350.00
You save $150.00!

LOL $4350 for 1 head.....had just a tad more in my entire 408

Rickster

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/07/14 12:02 PM

Understand they are high end - but for that coin Id want to be seeing some impressive flow figures in the marketing spiel!

Posted By: Dragula

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/07/14 12:40 PM

Quote:

Understand they are high end - but for that coin Id want to be seeing some impressive flow figures in the marketing spiel!

Here's the problem with that thought.....All that flow and no availability of cubic inches to utilize it...Biggest Gen3 I have seen was a 440 and they stopped making those...Would love to see +480 Gen3 because I am not sure a little 417 with those numbers would survive the rpm needed to put that flow to use.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/07/14 01:02 PM

There are 468" engines running around with Thiteks flowing over 400 at .600 lift already. I think these heads are for the 25lb+ boost club.

Posted By: MattW

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/07/14 01:45 PM

So what would be the bore limit IF we had a race block, siamese WHITOUT moving the bore centerline?
This is the first time we have production and aftermarket heads that will outperforme the block.

Posted By: Dragula

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/07/14 07:51 PM

Quote:

There are 468" engines running around with Thiteks flowing over 400 at .600 lift already. I think these heads are for the 25lb+ boost club.

With what block? They even said the 6.4 block they didn't like going to 440 cubes...

Flow is flow, but torque is king and going from a 512 I currently have would seem like the wrong direction for me anyways.

Posted By: justinp61

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/07/14 09:42 PM

And I just thought Gen 2 Hemi stuff was expensive

Posted By: Dragula

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/07/14 09:44 PM

Quote:

And I just thought Gen 2 Hemi stuff was expensive .

Yeah.....As with any Hemi $$$$$$$$ and more $$$$

Posted By: AlexP

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/07/14 11:19 PM

Those are pretty, but when a stock casting can support 900+ with the right cubic inches, what is the point?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The best use of the modern hemi is in an A/B/E body. Thankfully, mopar has the foresight to make it fit the old cars.

Oh wait, this engine is intended to push a 4500lb race car that needs 426 cubic inches and 20psi of boost to break into the 9's.

/rant

Posted By: MattW

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/07/14 11:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

There are 468" engines running around with Thiteks flowing over 400 at .600 lift already. I think these heads are for the 25lb+ boost club.

With what block? They even said the 6.4 block they didn't like going to 440 cubes...

Flow is flow, but torque is king and going from a 512 I currently have would seem like the wrong direction for me anyways.

The 6.4 has a bore of 4.09. So add 4.25 stroke and you have a 437 Cid. With a .010 over bore.
The HellCat make 700 HP with a blower. Stock 6.4 block.
IMO the block has to be better than that.

Matt

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/08/14 12:09 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Understand they are high end - but for that coin Id want to be seeing some impressive flow figures in the marketing spiel!

Here's the problem with that thought.....All that flow and no availability of cubic inches to utilize it...Biggest Gen3 I have seen was a 440 and they stopped making those...Would love to see +480 Gen3 because I am not sure a little 417 with those numbers would survive the rpm needed to put that flow to use.

Good point! - my point was more about how they are being marketed.....with a dollar figure like that....a person shouldnt have to struggle to get data on how they perform.....it should be right up front.

Posted By: 451Cuda

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/08/14 12:20 AM

Can Gen3 Hemis even handle that much power? I've heard of failures at the 500-600 hp level. Sad considering you can go to U-pull-it and buy a 5.3 LS truck engine that will handle 1000+ hp for $300.

Posted By: Dragula

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/08/14 12:23 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

There are 468" engines running around with Thiteks flowing over 400 at .600 lift already. I think these heads are for the 25lb+ boost club.

With what block? They even said the 6.4 block they didn't like going to 440 cubes...

Flow is flow, but torque is king and going from a 512 I currently have would seem like the wrong direction for me anyways.

The 6.4 has a bore of 4.09. So add 4.25 stroke and you have a 437 Cid. With a .010 over bore.
The HellCat make 700 HP with a blower. Stock 6.4 block.
IMO the block has to be better than that.
Matt

Soo 437 cubes to my 512 or 540 is .....

I love the G3 platform and would luv one, but I still have trouble justifing the cost to change over....Now get +480 cubes with a 6.4 block and I can keep my gearing and big tires...

I know the engine builders say its the bore size that makes the hp, but I have learned over the years the bigger the motor the less rev, and the more it stays togather.

Posted By: STEFF

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/08/14 12:28 AM

My guess is, with the availability of these billet heads, a billet block is got to be around the corner. And again, those kind of parts aren't for a street/strip car or the budget minded. The people that will buy these heads will not be nickle - diming the power plant they go on. They'll be all-out, no expense spared, max effort motors.

Posted By: WO23Coronet

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/08/14 12:36 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

There are 468" engines running around with Thiteks flowing over 400 at .600 lift already. I think these heads are for the 25lb+ boost club.

With what block? They even said the 6.4 block they didn't like going to 440 cubes...

Flow is flow, but torque is king and going from a 512 I currently have would seem like the wrong direction for me anyways.

The 6.4 has a bore of 4.09. So add 4.25 stroke and you have a 437 Cid. With a .010 over bore.
The HellCat make 700 HP with a blower. Stock 6.4 block.
IMO the block has to be better than that.
Matt

Isn't the issue with going to the 440" range is the CH of the piston gets very short and you run out of room. You also get bad side loading and start eating pistons. Someone really needs to make a tall deck GenIII

the 500-600 HP failures are due to the thin ringlands......1000HP junkyard 5.3's are a time bomb.....Read an article where a guy was doing up nitrous JY 5.3's in a Fox Mustang and went through 3 of them before he stepped up and built a proper engine. I know guys do it and they're stronger than GenIII's in factory form but the indestructible JY 5.3 story gets stretched more and more everytime, 2000HP JY 5.3's are just around the corner

Posted By: fishy340

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/08/14 01:13 AM

Well thats not bad actually Ron Rhodes is 12.000 + in his rr23* heads..but hey i guess its why he's the fastest Stock susp sb around bar none.

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/08/14 04:49 AM

Quote:

My guess is, with the availability of these billet heads, a billet block is got to be around the corner. And again, those kind of parts aren't for a street/strip car or the budget minded. The people that will buy these heads will not be nickle - diming the power plant they go on. They'll be all-out, no expense spared, max effort motors.

All the more reason to be up-front with wahat these heads can actually do.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/08/14 05:54 AM

Really agree with what is said here, a tall deck Gen III could be a world dominating beast. Only problem I see besides expensive intakes to go along with them is them fitting in our cars. Mine is tight as you know what now....

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/08/14 06:46 AM

These are well over what I want or need but its nice
that someone put the money and effort to do it... its
gonna take some serious cubes or SERIOUS rpm to make
this efficient

Posted By: MattW

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/08/14 02:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

There are 468" engines running around with Thiteks flowing over 400 at .600 lift already. I think these heads are for the 25lb+ boost club.

With what block? They even said the 6.4 block they didn't like going to 440 cubes...

Flow is flow, but torque is king and going from a 512 I currently have would seem like the wrong direction for me anyways.

The 6.4 has a bore of 4.09. So add 4.25 stroke and you have a 437 Cid. With a .010 over bore.
The HellCat make 700 HP with a blower. Stock 6.4 block.
IMO the block has to be better than that.
Matt

Isn't the issue with going to the 440" range is the CH of the piston gets very short and you run out of room. You also get bad side loading and start eating pistons. Someone really needs to make a tall deck GenIII

the 500-600 HP failures are due to the thin ringlands......1000HP junkyard 5.3's are a time bomb.....Read an article where a guy was doing up nitrous JY 5.3's in a Fox Mustang and went through 3 of them before he stepped up and built a proper engine. I know guys do it and they're stronger than GenIII's in factory form but the indestructible JY 5.3 story gets stretched more and more everytime, 2000HP JY 5.3's are just around the corner

So a tall deck GenIII with a max bore of 4.25.and 4.25 stroke 454 Cid.

Posted By: WO23Coronet

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/08/14 07:27 PM

If I won a massive lottery I would manufacture one, wouldn't care if I didn't make a dime

Posted By: LA360

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/09/14 01:37 PM

Billet heads seem to be preferred for longevity with boosted engines, and you're not limited with your design.

Flow figures sell heads to the average punter, high end head porting shops don't supply flow figures generally. People don't buy off them because they want impressive flow numbers, they want heads that work. Try getting flow figures from CFE and the like.

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/09/14 01:45 PM

So you are saying that flow figures dont indicate how a head performs at specific lift Al?

How else can you tell if they " work"?

Posted By: 1Fast340

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/09/14 05:24 PM

Quote:

So you are saying that flow figures dont indicate how a head performs at specific lift Al?

How else can you tell if they " work"?

simply put everyone and there brother claims that there flowbench is a stingy one or one that makes people cry and that everyone elses heads flow less when put on there stingy/happy bench.. its BS basicly.

i think the chops that wont list numbers are just inteligent and by doning so avoid most of the windowlickers attention or intrest in BS mail and phonecalls.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/09/14 05:36 PM

4.185x4.25 stroke is a 468. I know I would'nt buy a new aluminum Gen III block and machine it right to max bore though right out of the gate. The 4.125x4.00 combo is what I believe the crate 426's are and that seems to be a great combo. My engine is just a measly 4.065x4.05 combo with some soon to be ported 6.1 heads. As long as it breaks 500hp at the wheels im good.

Posted By: MattW

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/09/14 08:44 PM

Quote:

4.185x4.25 stroke is a 468. I know I would'nt buy a new aluminum Gen III block and machine it right to max bore though right out of the gate. The 4.125x4.00 combo is what I believe the crate 426's are and that seems to be a great combo. My engine is just a measly 4.065x4.05 combo with some soon to be ported 6.1 heads. As long as it breaks 500hp at the wheels im good.

I think my math is wrong. Bore x stroke x 3.14 x 8 = Cid?

Posted By: justinp61

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/09/14 10:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

4.185x4.25 stroke is a 468. I know I would'nt buy a new aluminum Gen III block and machine it right to max bore though right out of the gate. The 4.125x4.00 combo is what I believe the crate 426's are and that seems to be a great combo. My engine is just a measly 4.065x4.05 combo with some soon to be ported 6.1 heads. As long as it breaks 500hp at the wheels im good.

I think my math is wrong. Bore x stroke x 3.14 x 8 = Cid?

I use bore X bore X stroke X .7854 X the number of cylinders.

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/10/14 12:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:

So you are saying that flow figures dont indicate how a head performs at specific lift Al?

How else can you tell if they " work"?

simply put everyone and there brother claims that there flowbench is a stingy one or one that makes people cry and that everyone elses heads flow less when put on there stingy/happy bench.. its BS basicly.

i think the chops that wont list numbers are just inteligent and by doning so avoid most of the windowlickers attention or intrest in BS mail and phonecalls.

Thats all very well - but how do you tell if one product performs better than another without data to compare them?

Posted By: LA360

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/10/14 01:24 PM

Quote:

So you are saying that flow figures dont indicate how a head performs at specific lift Al?

How else can you tell if they " work"?

It's a piece to the puzzle, port cross section, port shape and velocity etc would be considered more important.

Most CNC heads are fairly generic and are often a starting point for further work. They will suit some combo's better than others.
Whether this is the case with these heads, I wouldn't be sure.

The beauty of billet heads is your freedom in design and not being tied down to a casting pattern. If something requires changing, change the CAD and re-program and cut again. You're not stuck with 25 sets of castings with the same problem.

Posted By: 1Fast340

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/10/14 06:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

So you are saying that flow figures dont indicate how a head performs at specific lift Al?

How else can you tell if they " work"?

simply put everyone and there brother claims that there flowbench is a stingy one or one that makes people cry and that everyone elses heads flow less when put on there stingy/happy bench.. its BS basicly.

i think the chops that wont list numbers are just inteligent and by doning so avoid most of the windowlickers attention or intrest in BS mail and phonecalls.

Thats all very well - but how do you tell if one product performs better than another without data to compare them?

just noticed my spelling in the previous post is even worse than usual lol thanks for actualy reading it

when it comes to shops that are actualy high end enough to make billetheads they will most certainly already have a good enough reputation that those that can afford the parts dont need to be assured by some bogus flownumbers adn will trust the shops good reputation

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/11/14 12:17 AM

OK...So its like trusting a pro engine builder - you trust what they're doing is right?

Posted By: LA360

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/11/14 01:37 PM

Pretty much Mal

Posted By: 1Fast340

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/11/14 05:22 PM

Quote:

OK...So its like trusting a pro engine builder - you trust what they're doing is right?

if i doubt a "pro enginebuilders reputaion a bunch of numbers on a website wont make him more trustworthy. and as we all know we dont race flowbenches.

here is a fine example of another somewhat wellknown shop that dont seem to show any flownumbers and for some reason i believe they sell a few heads anyway

http://store.trackerdesigns.com/Merchant...=Cylinder_Heads

as i said before no need for advertising a bunch of numbers if you are good enough at what you are doing. and it probably keeps som of the retards and windowlickers away.

Posted By: Adrielp

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/12/14 05:24 AM

Looks as though those heads work pretty good, they're shop car is number one qualifier in Street Outlaw at the NMCA/NMRA Super Bowl in Chicago. 7.0's @ over 200mph

That's pretty stout!

http://www.dragzine.com/race-coverage/nmca-coverage/nmranmca-super-bowl-day-coverage-joliet/

Posted By: 1Fast340

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/14/14 08:40 PM

That is impressive!

Posted By: 1967dartgt

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/15/14 01:09 AM

4.25x4.25 is a 482

Posted By: knyech1

Re: Gen3 Guys...The Bar has been raised! - 07/20/14 12:32 AM

Quote:

Can Gen3 Hemis even handle that much power? I've heard of failures at the 500-600 hp level. Sad considering you can go to U-pull-it and buy a 5.3 LS truck engine that will handle 1000+ hp for $300.

Yes, they can hold some power. A billet head is worthless for anything a stock or aluminum race block will hold, though. It's just a rich man's eye candy. You could run them, put a bunch of boost into them, with a race block, run higher rpms to optimize the heads' power potential, which will then force you to run dual distributors, and special rockers, and the list goes on...And you will get 20 runs out of it before you will crack the cylinder walls.

The 500-600hp level failures are common for anyone running an engine not designed for that. There are lots of guys out there throwing a Procharger on their bone stock 5.7's and 6.1's and blowing them to bits. Pistons are no good for boost, top ring lands are too high and they can't take the heat, and material is weak. Rods suck too. 6.1 cranks are the only part decent enough to take power.

A stock 5.3 LS engine can hold that 1000hp that you hear, but for how long? Haha, you can run a lot of hp through any engine once. How long do you want it to last, that is the question. The LS blocks are more durable than the Gen3 Hemi blocks, but they weigh 100lb more. Stock parts will absolutely not reliably hold 1000hp, so take that talk with a grain of salt. You can build a Gen3 Hemi for 1000hp and it can be somewhat reliable with proper parts and a GOOD TUNE.