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Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram

Posted By: Jeremiah

Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 05/15/14 04:29 PM

Hey tunnel ram guys!

Should I be installing a burst plate on my indy tunnel ram? Should there be one in each end of the plenum? I'd rather spend $200 now than have to repair carburetors, etc.


Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 05/15/14 04:57 PM

I have never seen it done or heard about it being done. Burst panels are for blower applications.
Posted By: moderncylinder

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 05/15/14 05:34 PM

http://www.nitrousproflow.com/products/burst-panels/manifold-pressure-relief-valve.html

Always a good idea

Bob
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 05/15/14 06:42 PM

Yes you should.
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 05/15/14 07:58 PM

I thought these looked nice:

http://www.bmfperformance.com/bmf-burst-panel/

I have to call and see what physical dimensions are.

Should I run one on each end of the plenum (Indy tunnel ram) or should I put one in between the carbs on the top plate? I think there is enough room to run one.

My reason for even thinking about this was seeing a picture of an Indy tunnel ram with the front of the plenum all welded up.

Thank you for your insight.
Posted By: 64HemiSavoy

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 05/15/14 10:08 PM

Quote:

I have never seen it done or heard about it being done. Burst panels are for blower applications.



Obviously haven't kept up with the SS/AH crowd? Lots of them run burst panels.
Posted By: Dads426

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 05/16/14 02:55 AM

Quote:

http://www.nitrousproflow.com/products/burst-panels/manifold-pressure-relief-valve.html

Always a good idea

Bob


We use them on our Indy manifold. Not a whole lot of purge area, and I know they have not saved a manifold on some others cars, but better than nothing.

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Posted By: Hemi Allstate

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 05/16/14 05:24 AM

I put a pair on my old Rat Roaster.

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Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 05/17/14 05:44 PM

Thanks for the feedback. I will install them on both ends of the plenum.
Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 05/17/14 07:18 PM

Look at the size of a burst panel, compared to 8 throttle blades wide open.........less area. A burst panel usually only helps a light sneeze when trying to crank. For a big backfire they are useless. What we use on the Pro-Mod cars is plastic bolts for the top plate. If it sneezes it just sheers the bolts, you replace them and away you go.

On a blower car, in addition to burst panel, they also run alum blower studs. So even when it pops panel, it still lifts the blower. You are just hoping the combo of the two keeps it from destroying the intake

Monte
Posted By: jcc

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 05/17/14 07:35 PM

So if the burst panels are only a part solution, on your rat manifold, why not just mount the entire top panel spring loaded with similar bolts as burst panels, or would preventing linkage wide open throttle bind be too much of an issue/c concern?
Posted By: Hemi Allstate

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 05/18/14 12:43 AM


That's an interesting idea.
The Rat Roaster was known to have back fire issues, due to puddling fuel. I addressed that as well.

Mark

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Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 05/18/14 12:56 AM

Quote:

Look at the size of a burst panel, compared to 8 throttle blades wide open.........less area. A burst panel usually only helps a light sneeze when trying to crank. For a big backfire they are useless. What we use on the Pro-Mod cars is plastic bolts for the top plate. If it sneezes it just sheers the bolts, you replace them and away you go.

On a blower car, in addition to burst panel, they also run alum blower studs. So even when it pops panel, it still lifts the blower. You are just hoping the combo of the two keeps it from destroying the intake

Monte



When you say plastic bolts do mean nylon? I'll look into it.
Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 05/18/14 06:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Look at the size of a burst panel, compared to 8 throttle blades wide open.........less area. A burst panel usually only helps a light sneeze when trying to crank. For a big backfire they are useless. What we use on the Pro-Mod cars is plastic bolts for the top plate. If it sneezes it just sheers the bolts, you replace them and away you go.

On a blower car, in addition to burst panel, they also run alum blower studs. So even when it pops panel, it still lifts the blower. You are just hoping the combo of the two keeps it from destroying the intake

Monte



When you say plastic bolts do mean nylon? I'll look into it.

Yes, just use the nylon bolts. Problem solved

Monte
Posted By: moparx

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 05/18/14 01:00 PM

any recommendations for a maxie intake ?
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/11/14 03:56 AM

Update:

After spending some time with the nylon bolts I decided I didn't like the thought of the top plate popping off the intake. I can see where this might work in some applications however the older style Indy TR top is not one of them IMO.

We ended up putting a CFE (aka BMF) burst plate on each side of the manifold.

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Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/11/14 09:40 PM

What I do with the plastic bolts, to keep from blowing the top off and destroying linkage or lines, is one of two methods.....One is you can make 4 "tethers" from very small steel cable. Fab up some small brackets at the four corners and it lifts and sets right back down......Two, is at the 4 corners, you install what amounts to a carb stud. Secure the intake top with the plastic bolts and put a spring and nut on the 4 corner studs. You are essentially making the WHOLE top the burst panel.

I know LOTS of people use them, but those small burst panels are pretty much useless. It MIGHT and I repeat MIGHT help you with a small pop when cranking, but chances are still VERY good that even if they do open, you will still taco shell the throttle plates. I would lots rather have to replace some plastic bolts and reseal the top, than try to wrestle bent throttle blades from a carb.......especially a Dominator. If the you bend them bad, you usually have to cut the throttle shafts out to get them out. Then you are out blades AND shafts.

Monte
Posted By: Jamie McGrath

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/11/14 10:40 PM

I myself am just wondering how effective the burst plates are in the front side and the rear side of the RR intake, seems to me they would be more effective if they were on top of the lid more near the center?
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/12/14 01:26 AM

Quote:

What I do with the plastic bolts, to keep from blowing the top off and destroying linkage or lines, is one of two methods.....One is you can make 4 "tethers" from very small steel cable. Fab up some small brackets at the four corners and it lifts and sets right back down......Two, is at the 4 corners, you install what amounts to a carb stud. Secure the intake top with the plastic bolts and put a spring and nut on the 4 corner studs. You are essentially making the WHOLE top the burst panel.

I know LOTS of people use them, but those small burst panels are pretty much useless. It MIGHT and I repeat MIGHT help you with a small pop when cranking, but chances are still VERY good that even if they do open, you will still taco shell the throttle plates. I would lots rather have to replace some plastic bolts and reseal the top, than try to wrestle bent throttle blades from a carb.......especially a Dominator. If the you bend them bad, you usually have to cut the throttle shafts out to get them out. Then you are out blades AND shafts.

Monte



Thank you as always for your insight. My car is a street/strip deal so most of my reasoning for installing the burst plates is for lean backfires when I am warming up the engine (i.e. a cold fall morning putting to the track). As far as the nylon bolts I am having a hard time finding flat allen head (tapered seat) 10-24 machine screws in the harder, UV-proof nylon. I did find some that are made from white nylon however they are quite soft and the cone on the underside of the bolt head is no as large in comparison to it's steel counterpart. Where do you guys buy your nylon bolts? The only place I have found them is home improvement stores and hardware outfits (ACE is the place).

I like the idea of tehers.
Posted By: Hemi Allstate

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/12/14 04:11 AM

Quote:

I myself am just wondering how effective the burst plates are in the front side and the rear side of the RR intake, seems to me they would be more effective if they were on top of the lid more near the center?



I cannot answer your question with my own experience, as I have yet to use my RR intake. However, I placed them where they are, as recommended by a board member, with a lot of experience with the RR intakes and modifications to the same.
Mark
Posted By: jcc

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/12/14 04:28 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I myself am just wondering how effective the burst plates are in the front side and the rear side of the RR intake, seems to me they would be more effective if they were on top of the lid more near the center?



I cannot answer your question with my own experience, as I have yet to use my RR intake. However, I placed them where they are, as recommended by a board member, with a lot of experience with the RR intakes and modifications to the same.
Mark



Shooting from the hip here, but I think it might be important to try and not compare an intake back fire to a normal combustion chamber ignition event, mainly not compressed to 180+psi prior to ignition and only 2"? max flame travel vs a partial manifold vacuum with 12 or more inches of flame travel. I suspect also that we are not talking long ram style intakes which would develop a certain amount of column inertia during a backfire. The most important point I think to consider is the large partial vacuum intake plenum likely works as a pretty good pressure shock absorber as the backfire begins, and the burst reliever has a lot more time to vent this pressure as the backfire takes place, and the pressure is pretty well distributed because of the relatively large volume, and where the burst panel is located would should not be as critical, more will it flow enough outflow to keep pressure spike workable. Ideally though more centrally located would be best, but knowing in advance which cyl starts the back fire would also mean one knows which cylinder to focus on to prevent it, if it's only one. As much as I may be minimizing the pressures, it is still a large energy pulse. I also have a bridge for sale.
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/12/14 04:32 AM

Is this what your looking for but in a 10-24 size?

You want to use a 6/6 Nylon
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/12/14 05:01 AM

Hi Greg,

I will check and see exactly what I have out in the shop tomorrow. I think they are 10-24. Time for a cruise in the other 66 Dodge!

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Posted By: mac56

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/12/14 12:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I myself am just wondering how effective the burst plates are in the front side and the rear side of the RR intake, seems to me they would be more effective if they were on top of the lid more near the center?



I cannot answer your question with my own experience, as I have yet to use my RR intake. However, I placed them where they are, as recommended by a board member, with a lot of experience with the RR intakes and modifications to the same.
Mark


It should not matter where it is. The pressure will be equal in all direction. It is similiar to a relief valve in a hydraulic system. The relief valve can be anywhere on the pressure side of the system.
Posted By: David_in_St_Croi

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/12/14 03:39 PM

Try Mcmaster-Carr for the nylon machine screws. Here is the online page:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#machine-screws/=ssz3ew

Ar 6.42 for a bag of 100 1" long 10-24 in black you could replace them every 3 months for several years if you are worried about UV.

Since you are up in Babylon you can use UPS instead of the usual fight to convince companies (Mcmaster is actually better than most) to use the USPS and that the USPS CAN deliver to a USPS Post Office Box.......

Now you guys have me all nervous about my Weiand tunnel ram.....
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/12/14 03:46 PM

Quote:

Is this what your looking for but in a 10-24 size?

You want to use a 6/6 Nylon




Might help if I included the link
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00137OQTU/ref=...ASIN=B00137OQTU
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/13/14 07:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Is this what your looking for but in a 10-24 size?

You want to use a 6/6 Nylon




Might help if I included the link
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00137OQTU/ref=...ASIN=B00137OQTU



I see that is the metric equivalent. Is 6/6 UV protected? We have major issues with white nylon zip ties out here. They become brittle in less than a year when fully exposed. Being a streeter our car spends time parked at the growers market, etc. throughout the summer.
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/13/14 02:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Is this what your looking for but in a 10-24 size?

You want to use a 6/6 Nylon




Might help if I included the link
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00137OQTU/ref=...ASIN=B00137OQTU



I see that is the metric equivalent. Is 6/6 UV protected? We have major issues with white nylon zip ties out here. They become brittle in less than a year when fully exposed. Being a streeter our car spends time parked at the growers market, etc. throughout the summer.




Yes it's metric, just attached the link to see if it's the same head type your looking for (tapered?). They seem to be a little difficult to locate in SAE Tapered Seat.

The 6/6 Nylon is what they make valve stem seals out of, however they are 30% glass filled (fiberglass). Nylon valve seals are tough as nails and live in a very harsh environment hence my recommendation for 6/6 Nylon. I really have no idea what they make Zip Ties out of. Probably a lot of re-ground junk would be my guess.

My Yahoo search for "6/6 Nylon Machine Screws" turned up more than Google. You can also search "Images" and follow the links
Posted By: Porter67

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/13/14 03:28 PM

As stated they are not made for a full on nitrous backfire, however they do a fine job on a big plenum intake on choke less cold starts or until one gets the timing/carbs correct.

They do work, the self resetting part is 90% true so put them where you can reach them as the rubber O ring can get moved out of place.

I dont think the few brief cranking coughs back through the intake that did release through the plates would of been strong enough to hurt a carb.

But if it saves things one time, they were worth the cost and install time.

I like the plastic bolt idea on a track car that calls for it.
Posted By: DusterDave

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/13/14 06:04 PM

McMaster-Carr also sells aluminum and titanium bolts and studs. Just sayin'.
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/13/14 07:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Is this what your looking for but in a 10-24 size?

You want to use a 6/6 Nylon




Might help if I included the link
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00137OQTU/ref=...ASIN=B00137OQTU



I see that is the metric equivalent. Is 6/6 UV protected? We have major issues with white nylon zip ties out here. They become brittle in less than a year when fully exposed. Being a streeter our car spends time parked at the growers market, etc. throughout the summer.




Yes it's metric, just attached the link to see if it's the same head type your looking for (tapered?). They seem to be a little difficult to locate in SAE Tapered Seat.

The 6/6 Nylon is what they make valve stem seals out of, however they are 30% glass filled (fiberglass). Nylon valve seals are tough as nails and live in a very harsh environment hence my recommendation for 6/6 Nylon. I really have no idea what they make Zip Ties out of. Probably a lot of re-ground junk would be my guess.

My Yahoo search for "6/6 Nylon Machine Screws" turned up more than Google. You can also search "Images" and follow the links



I'll do a bit more research. My prior investigation also turned up lots of metric options for "flat" (tapered) machine screws as well. As far as the zip ties we use they are black UV resistant and about 50 cents a piece. They may be made out of recycled junk but they do their job in very harsh environments for years and years without becoming brittle or shearing. I'll look into that as well.
Posted By: jcc

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/13/14 08:10 PM

Almost anything black nylon has inherent UV resistance greater then white Nylon. can;t imagine under hood UV on a bolt head of nylon would ever succumb to UV issues. They are cheap enough to toss rather then reuse.

Awhile back it was mentioned the manifold issues are similar to "hydraulics", if you discount the the concept that a liquid is for all intents and purposes non compressible and air is, and the speed of the pressure spike is much faster in a liquid (for example speed of sound in air 343 m/s vs 1461 m/s in oil), allowing less time for flow to displace volume/pressure thru the burst panel.

Nobody has an issue with a partially separated TR top acting like a WO stuck throttle?
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/13/14 09:53 PM

So sad... only 2 choices:
Do nothing (always popular), or spend $75 × how many?

No engineers here? Not sure which side of the boat hull to put the patch on?
Since there isn't any positive pressure unless something goes wrong (the complete opposite of a blower manifold) a holesaw and a big piece of duct tape works just fine. Fails instantly with any cough (which the small panels won't do until their pre-set is reached).
Wonder why they put stuff down a demo hole after the dynamite? Because the expansion in the first few milliseconds is very important.
Just imagine the facial expression when a sneeze wrecks the carbs, dents the hood, bends up the linkage and tears the fuel line off!!!

Well, except for the annoying comments of the skin-packaged billet color-anodized speed equipment enthusiasts...

[/rant]
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/14/14 08:46 AM

Quote:

Almost anything black nylon has inherent UV resistance greater then white Nylon. can;t imagine under hood UV on a bolt head of nylon would ever succumb to UV issues. They are cheap enough to toss rather then reuse.

Awhile back it was mentioned the manifold issues are similar to "hydraulics", if you discount the the concept that a liquid is for all intents and purposes non compressible and air is, and the speed of the pressure spike is much faster in a liquid (for example speed of sound in air 343 m/s vs 1461 m/s in oil), allowing less time for flow to displace volume/pressure thru the burst panel.

Nobody has an issue with a partially separated TR top acting like a WO stuck throttle?



1) My tunnel ram will not be under the hood. UV protection is important.

2) If the car backfired and popped the manifolds lid off the mixture is going so lean it's not running anymore...I think?
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/14/14 08:51 AM

Quote:

So sad... only 2 choices:
Do nothing (always popular), or spend $75 × how many?

No engineers here? Not sure which side of the boat hull to put the patch on?
Since there isn't any positive pressure unless something goes wrong (the complete opposite of a blower manifold) a holesaw and a big piece of duct tape works just fine. Fails instantly with any cough (which the small panels won't do until their pre-set is reached).
Wonder why they put stuff down a demo hole after the dynamite? Because the expansion in the first few milliseconds is very important.
Just imagine the facial expression when a sneeze wrecks the carbs, dents the hood, bends up the linkage and tears the fuel line off!!!

Well, except for the annoying comments of the skin-packaged billet color-anodized speed equipment enthusiasts...

[/rant]



I'm not sure if you are saying I am smart of retarded for adding burst plated. I have considered playing with the springs to see how light I can go without causing a vacuum leak.

If you wanted to avoid bending butterflies on your Quickfuels at 6am on the way to work when the lean misfire occurs (stick car) what would you do? Please write this response in English. I don't speak /rant.
Posted By: Porter67

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 07/14/14 11:16 AM

You can set them as far as the small lock nuts will back out against the stud/bolt but it makes them harder to reset themselves.

Possibly if a person used RTV or something to keep the o ring in place on the one side it fits in it might be the ticket.

I have mine in each side and even with them fully cranked so they can just open a bit does let them reset and still work. Last time I popped a bit the one I could see just was a quick small flash then reset.
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram - 10/03/19 03:44 PM

I am bringing this thread back from the dead after a mishap this weekend at the local track. We had a no prep deal at #medforddragstrip and one of, if not the nicest car there had a n20 backfire and blew a lexan t-ram carb scoop all over the track. We were the next car in staging and had lexan chips raining all over about 150' from the starting line.

Car had no burst plates and I was told steel fasteners. Read this thread; protect that $$$ induction system!

Thank you for reading this PSA.

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