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Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear?

Posted By: Jeremiah

Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/21/14 04:25 AM

I know they make a polycarbonate gear for the brand x cars. Do they make anything like that for a big block Chrysler?

If my options are still bronze or the new coated gear does anyone have any experience with the coated gear?

I treed to get a billet roller cam with a pressed on cast gear but that is not an option for Chrysler stuff.



Posted By: BradH

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/21/14 08:21 PM

I don't believe the composite gears are available for any Mopar applications.

I looked into the coated gears and decided to try out a bronze gear and be very careful to limit the distributor shaft vertical play using a slip-on (screw-type) collar on the shaft. Can't tell you how that's working out, yet, though.

The coated gears have warnings against using them w/ high oil pressure, same as the composite gears. I've been cranking 60-65 psi hot and don't want to find out the hard way what their true limit is for handling that sort of load on the gear.
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/21/14 08:42 PM

Well I went ahead and ordered a coated gear and hardened shaft from Kevin at Hughes this morning along with a stack of Superformance gaskets. I don't mind being the guinea pig for some of this new stuff. When my car hits the street we will have some empirical data. Thanks for the feedback Brad!
Posted By: mshred

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/21/14 11:31 PM

I made a post about this last week I think....not many replies, but they do make them for mopars, although they say NOT to use them with HV pumps
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/22/14 01:08 AM

Quote:

I made a post about this last week I think....not many replies, but they do make them for mopars, although they say NOT to use them with HV pumps



Are you speaking of the coated gear or the elusive composite?

I think I have two of each style of pump so that is not a huge deal. I will also give Hughes a call and see what they know.
Posted By: mshred

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/22/14 02:23 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I made a post about this last week I think....not many replies, but they do make them for mopars, although they say NOT to use them with HV pumps



Are you speaking of the coated gear or the elusive composite?

I think I have two of each style of pump so that is not a huge deal. I will also give Hughes a call and see what they know.



Good question lol...All I know is its a crane gear, and now that I am thinking about it, maybe it is just coated. I will call hughes tomorrow as well and see if they have one of these composite gears for small blocks...might be the ticket for the HV pump and the roller cam- for a street car, having a gear that doesn't wear itself in to the engine oil would be nice
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/22/14 02:58 AM

Hughes sells the coated gear.
Posted By: mshred

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/22/14 07:20 AM

Quote:

Hughes sells the coated gear.



I will have to see if it is compatible with an HV pump..they don't warn against it, so maybe it is?
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/22/14 06:57 PM

Let me know what they say when you talk to them.
Posted By: mshred

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/22/14 09:58 PM

Quote:

Let me know what they say when you talk to them.



I wasn't able to speak to them (called a couple times and no answer), but from some research I have done, it seems to be the exact same gear as the crane gear but marketed as theirs- as in coated (atleast for SB). Crane says to not use coated gears with used camshafts as it will not wear the teeth in properly and can damage the gear...they also caution against using it with an HV pump, whether the shaft is hardened or not, as the stress from the HV pump will wear it out ( I read of one story on the bullet that scared me away from the composite/coated gear and HV pumps).

I ended up with a Milodon bronze gear and hardened shaft setup from Summit (I had a 10% off coupon that I used). Sorry if I wasn't much help- I would have tried the coated gear if my cam was brand new, but it is used (and appears to be pretty old at that) and I am running an HV pump. Would rather not take any chances.

If you talk to them, let us know what they tell you.
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/22/14 10:08 PM

I think they are at the big expo show at Pheasant Run this weekend. I'll hit them up on Monday and see what the deal is with running a HV pump. I can't imagine it would be that much more force to drive a HV pump over the standard volume unit. If I remember right the HV's are designed to pump 25% more volume. Edit: I checked the Melling website and the HV spec is 25%.
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/22/14 10:37 PM

Here is the flyer from Crane.

Attached File
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/23/14 05:34 AM

Is melonized(SP?) steel a new word for composite materials? I seem to remember that you can use a steel gear, not iron, on a steel billet cam with no problems I had a customer do that years ago on a street steel hydraulic roller cam for a 302 Ford, Comp Cams change the firing order on that cam to the Windsor firing order There where some other problems do to his inexperience on steel camshaft cores, he ate two of the stock distributor gears before buying the correct steel one
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/23/14 05:54 AM

How often are you guys going through the bronze gears..
so far I never have.. the one in my 395 engine has
about 900 passes on it and it has minimal wear.. I
thought about using it in my 416 in the Rampage(street
car) but I found a new one in my stash of junk... it
better last a FEW thousand miles
Posted By: dannysbee

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/23/14 06:28 PM

Here is some interesting information on selection and set up.

http://www.stangtv.com/tech-stories/elec...ut-the-details/
Posted By: BradH

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/23/14 06:49 PM

Quote:

Is melonized(SP?) steel a new word for composite materials?


No. The composite gears are different, "non-metallic" IIRC.

I had a conversation w/ Dwayne Porter on the idea of trying one of the new Crane melonized gears. We came to the conclusion that if I did encounter some wear issues due to oil pressure load on the shaft or whatever, that the resulting particulate that comes from a bronze gear would probably do less damage than what would come off some type of treated steel gear.

End decision was to run a bronze gear, but (as I noted above) be careful during set-up to minimize vertical play of the gear. Can't add anything else now since my junk's still not running again.
Posted By: dannysbee

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/23/14 07:06 PM

I am just thinking out loud here but why not run the brass gear for a little bit to run it in. Then remove it and have it cryogenic treated or some other process that would make it last longer.
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/23/14 07:40 PM

That is good thinking. I am going to give the steel gear a go. If anything I always have an identical spare short block.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/23/14 08:22 PM

My 518 pump gas motor had a new bronze gear put in it when I assembled it in 2004 the first time, it had the same gear in it with no noticeable wear when I sold it last year
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 02/23/14 09:08 PM

Quote:

My 518 pump gas motor had a new gear put in it when I assembled it in 224 the first time, it had the same gear in it with no noticeable wear when I sold it last year



That is good to know Cab. I guess if the coated steel gear doesn't work out I'll shoot for the bronze unit on "take 2".
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 03/01/14 12:15 AM

Yo,

I finally had time to call around today and have yet to talk to any shop that has heard of or experienced problems with the coated gear. It seems that as long as the 10lb / 1000 RPM rule is followed, oil gets warmed up prior to abuse, and a reasonable viscosity is used no problems would be expected. If you have 100 psi cold at 100 rpm with 20w50 and hammer it out of the shop two minutes after start up this gear is not for you. Hope this helps out.
Posted By: mshred

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 03/01/14 02:26 AM

Quote:

Yo,

I finally had time to call around today and have yet to talk to any shop that has heard of or experienced problems with the coated gear. It seems that as long as the 10lb / 1000 RPM rule is followed, oil gets warmed up prior to abuse, and a reasonable viscosity is used no problems would be expected. If you have 100 psi cold at 100 rpm with 20w50 and hammer it out of the shop two minutes after start up this gear is not for you. Hope this helps out.



Did you speak with Crane at all? None of them cautioned against using them with HV pumps? If that is the case, I am going to cancel the order on my milodon gear tomorrow, as it hasn't even shipped yet (out of stock).

Thanks for the info!
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 03/01/14 09:14 AM

I have not had much success asking anything of Crane in the past so I tried to talk to people that were using and supporting the product.

It's your turn to call somebody.

Tim at Hughes told me they don't even sell 20w50 racing oil these days because the thinner stuff works fine. He also advised me to run synthetic unless my application diluted the oil (aka alcohol) and in that case run mineral based on cost, etc.

I'll be interested to see how it all works.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 03/02/14 05:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Hughes sells the coated gear.



I will have to see if it is compatible with an HV pump..they don't warn against it, so maybe it is?



I looked at the link , it doesn't say anything about oil pumps but if you look at the coated gear and shaft assemblies for Big blocks it says this ...

Quote:

High volume, or high pressure oil pumps are not recommended as they accelerate wear on the cam gear and oil pump drive gear.




Posted By: Skeptic

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 03/02/14 05:50 AM

That is a dangerous oversight on the website that could lead to an expensive problem for the unwary. I did send them an e-mail about this.
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 03/02/14 04:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Yo,

I finally had time to call around today and have yet to talk to any shop that has heard of or experienced problems with the coated gear. It seems that as long as the 10lb / 1000 RPM rule is followed, oil gets warmed up prior to abuse, and a reasonable viscosity is used no problems would be expected. If you have 100 psi cold at 100 rpm with 20w50 and hammer it out of the shop two minutes after start up this gear is not for you. Hope this helps out.



Did you speak with Crane at all? None of them cautioned against using them with HV pumps? If that is the case, I am going to cancel the order on my milodon gear tomorrow, as it hasn't even shipped yet (out of stock).

Thanks for the info!




Chase and I were " chewing the fat" recently on this topic, and here are some notes:


First, if it’s a new steel roller camshaft, prior to installation, put the wire wheel on the bench grinder, and THOROUGHLY burnish the gear surfaces. This will really help distributor gear life.

If the new roller cam is already in the engine, the coated steel gear should be good to use with any material camshaft, when using a sane oil pump. If you have a reasonable performance pump (plus 10-20 pounds), the coated gear should still be acceptable. If you have a HVHP oil pump (40-60# at idle, 100+# at 5000) with stock/near-stock bearing clearances, you’re going to need a bronze gear, and check it frequently to gauge the wear rate. Way too much load for reasonable longevity. The bottom line is, too many people really run TOO much oil pressure, and its a feel good maneuver many times more than anything. With the quality of todays oils, I dont think its half as much as important as people think.

If it’s a used roller cam, the bronze gear is necessary so it can mate to the existing worn cam gear surfaces.

Not all “bronze” gears are the same. Crane’s gears are a high grade of silicon bronze, that are a bit tougher than some of the softer items out there.I have seen some of the " bargain" bronze gears, and I wouldnt put them on a Fisher Price built car.Junk.I would have to confirm this to be 100% accurate, but my own research tells me there are only a few companies actually making the GOOD bronze gears for everyone. The Crane has always been my favorite, but cant say I have had problems ever with Milodon and MP as well. Setting up thrust and having a tight bushing helps.


Crane does offer small block MOPAR roller camshafts with pressed-on iron distributor drive gears, so a standard distributor gear can be used. I think some others do as well.

In a street driven application, a bronze gear may just simply be considered a consumable item over time. They can last from 10,000 to 40,000 miles, and perform perfectly fine in that period. Hell, if you changed it our every three years, big deal.

The influx of new camshafts, cores, hydraulic roller popularity as well as other industry changes, simply has made the need for a more universal gear show up. ( my opinion). That being said, the manufacters tried to develop a more, one size fits all cam gear. That and the fact people thought bronze gears were only for race cars, and, expensive, certainly came into play.
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 03/02/14 07:51 PM

Thank you for the info. I am running a high volume pump and will make sure the engine has 30 or so at idle and no more than 75 at 7500 RPM. I'll also go .003 on the mains. If that doesn't work at least someone will have tried and failed instead of talked about it.
Posted By: mopar400

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 10/12/14 08:43 PM

Anyone have first hand experience to report on the coated Crane gear yet?
Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 10/12/14 11:10 PM

If you can find me a machine shop within 4 hours (with a dyno) that turns around work in less than three months I'll be right on it!



Attached picture 8298289-IMG_20140923_112445_356_resized.jpg
Posted By: mopar400

Re: Does anyone make a composite intermidiate gear? - 10/14/14 04:20 AM

Quote:

If you can find me a machine shop within 4 hours (with a dyno) that turns around work in less than three months I'll be right on it!





I'm interested in your results or anyone else. I think I may just skip the composite this time around since there is little feedback on them. I'm worried about the Crane gear possibly causing wear to the cam gear. Money is too tight right now to risk it.
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