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Alcohol for a 572 Wedge ?

Posted By: Edge

Alcohol for a 572 Wedge ? - 10/24/13 08:27 PM

Been following a number of posts that have been indicating that alcohol is not the way to go with larger CID NA combination. I am curious as to the specific reasons why gas would be preferable outside of the maintenance/start up/cold weather challenges associated with running methanol in a 15:1 combination. Yet to get my combination down the track but it is a 572 B1 15:1 EFI combo running methanol. I kind of liked the idea of running cooler and the consistency that methanol offers but I am open to understand any reasons why I might expect improved performance from gas.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Alcohol for a 572 Wedge ? - 10/24/13 08:33 PM

You can make more power with race gas NA, but there are other reasons to run alcohol. All depends on what is important to you.

Alcohol is less expensive than race gas even though you use twice as much so that is one factor. It also runs cooler so if you race in hot weather you might be able to save money/weight on things like the radiator and water pump and stuff like that. But alcohol requires extra maintenance on the fuel system so it takes more time and can cost more to replace parts and such.
Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Alcohol for a 572 Wedge ? - 10/24/13 08:45 PM

Quote:

You can make more power with race gas NA, but there are other reasons to run alcohol. All depends on what is important to you.

Alcohol is less expensive than race gas even though you use twice as much so that is one factor. It also runs cooler so if you race in hot weather you might be able to save money/weight on things like the radiator and water pump and stuff like that. But alcohol requires extra maintenance on the fuel system so it takes more time and can cost more to replace parts and such.




Be prepared,oil changes and other maintaince can be costly.
Posted By: Swedcharger67

Re: Alcohol for a 572 Wedge ? - 10/24/13 08:51 PM

Quote:

... but I am open to understand any reasons why I might expect improved performance from gas.


I'm also very interested in understanding why race gas would improve performance compared to alcohol??
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Alcohol for a 572 Wedge ? - 10/24/13 09:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

... but I am open to understand any reasons why I might expect improved performance from gas.


I'm also very interested in understanding why race gas would improve performance compared to alcohol??



I don't believe this to be the case?
Posted By: Performance Only

Re: Alcohol for a 572 Wedge ? - 10/24/13 09:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

... but I am open to understand any reasons why I might expect improved performance from gas.


I'm also very interested in understanding why race gas would improve performance compared to alcohol??



It's not that simple. The difference in power can be very combo specific. To keep it simple, if you have enough port volume for the lbs/hr. it takes to run alcohol it's doubtful you'll see a drop in power. In most cases you'll see an increase in power.
Posted By: challenger1320

Re: Alcohol for a 572 Wedge ? - 10/24/13 09:25 PM

I have a buddy that I race with he has a 588 B1 M/C on Methenol. I have a 572 B1 on C14. We race all the same races together. This year he used 74 gal of fuel at 3.33 a gal I used 54 gal of fuel at 12.29 a gal. His car runs low 4.60's my car runs high 4.70's. He changed his oil one time this year and has had zero fuel system problems. Needless to say I am changing to methenol next year. I think the key is in the fuel delivery. If you are fat it is going to give you trouble.
Posted By: BJS racing

Re: Alcohol for a 572 Wedge ? - 10/24/13 09:31 PM

Quote:

I have a buddy that I race with he has a 588 B1 M/C on Methenol. I have a 572 B1 on C14. We race all the same races together. This year he used 74 gal of fuel at 3.33 a gal I used 54 gal of fuel at 12.29 a gal. His car runs low 4.60's my car runs high 4.70's. He changed his oil one time this year and has had zero fuel system problems. Needless to say I am changing to methenol next year. I think the key is in the fuel delivery. If you are fat it is going to give you trouble.



Very true. and do not start the car unless you can allow the engine to get to operating temp. If you just fire it up and load it or unload it you will start getting milky oil. Ask me how I know that one. Once we stopped doing that we would do juat as mentioned. Once a year and we were good.
Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: Alcohol for a 572 Wedge ? - 10/24/13 10:40 PM

Quote:

Been following a number of posts that have been indicating that alcohol is not the way to go with larger CID NA combination. I am curious as to the specific reasons why gas would be preferable outside of the maintenance/start up/cold weather challenges associated with running methanol in a 15:1 combination. Yet to get my combination down the track but it is a 572 B1 15:1 EFI combo running methanol. I kind of liked the idea of running cooler and the consistency that methanol offers but I am open to understand any reasons why I might expect improved performance from gas.



Don't believe that about the large engines,I have over a 100 cu in on you with my smallest(only have 2) engine and run 2 Terminators on Tunnel Rams on both engines.

PS I forgot about my 540 Indy engine with 440-1 heads,I only have 1 Toilet Bowl on it & it performs great.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Alcohol for a 572 Wedge ? - 10/25/13 12:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

... but I am open to understand any reasons why I might expect improved performance from gas.


I'm also very interested in understanding why race gas would improve performance compared to alcohol??

If your asking about a N/A combination I would think that the BTU per gallon makes the differences in HP on the dyno. I did a dyno test on a low compression motor, 10.78 to 1 comp. ratio pump gas 518 C.I. motor, and saw that both race gas and pump gas made more HP than E85 jetted for best performance, the E85 did make more torque with a little less HP. I would assumed, based on Methanol having around 85,000 BTU per gallon compared to 83,000 BTU for Ethanol that straight Methanol might almost make as much or maybe a tiny bit more HP than race gas and the E 85 does I run the new car on pump E85 and I like it, that motor(505 C.I. bracket motor) has a little more compression than the pump gas motor did The one thing I don't like about running straight Methanol is the stinking fumes and watery eyes
Posted By: steeldust

Re: Alcohol for a 572 Wedge ? - 10/25/13 03:06 AM

I did run Alcohol on my 572 and I changed my oil after 2 or 3 races and I run it for about 15 years on my bird and I loved it but I went NO2 with new motor on a fogger but I run some nitrous on my 572 with a plate with c16 for nitrous and motor on Alcohol and I may go back the same way spray with gas and run motor on Alcohol it`s hard to beat Alcohol but I run Rupperts carb and belt pump

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Posted By: Edge

Re: Alcohol for a 572 Wedge ? - 10/25/13 04:14 AM

thanks for the feedback, there are definetly some differnt views on this one, going to try the methanol set up next spring and will report back
Posted By: Swedcharger67

Re: Alcohol for a 572 Wedge ? - 10/25/13 08:07 AM

Quote:

thanks for the feedback, there are definetly some differnt views on this one, going to try the methanol set up next spring and will report back



If you take the BTUs of alcohol per gallon, compare it to race gas BTUs, and take into account that you need more gallons of alcohol, you will see that alcohol will give you more power.
As always, your engine needs to be set up for the proper air/fuel mixture.
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Alcohol for a 572 Wedge ? - 10/25/13 01:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

You can make more power with race gas NA, but there are other reasons to run alcohol. All depends on what is important to you.

Alcohol is less expensive than race gas even though you use twice as much so that is one factor. It also runs cooler so if you race in hot weather you might be able to save money/weight on things like the radiator and water pump and stuff like that. But alcohol requires extra maintenance on the fuel system so it takes more time and can cost more to replace parts and such.





Be prepared,oil changes and other maintaince can be costly.


Oil lasts longer than in a gas motor once you understand how to run Methanol. Run the motor HOT. That is where it wants to run best anyway. I stage at 185, and let the motor heat up to 210 on the return road. The oil stays clear, no contamination from water or fuel, and especially no contamination from gasoline. The engine temp is easily managed. Lean out the motor for warm up, and because you run it hot hot lapping it isn't a problem. At the end of the day, be sure there is no fuel lingering in the cylinders. I have an injector, and I need to crank it with the fuel shut off a couple of times while the lines drain out through the nozzles. It can take twenty to thirty seconds before it all runs out.
I was told by my first engine builder that there is a cross over point with alky Vs gas. He claimed 7500 rpm or there abouts. Seeing the results of those that switch from gas to alky, I can buy into that. So is race gas a better fuel? Not in my mind. To get max Hp you need the best gas, and that costs a lot. If you are willing to run E85, it will handle up to around 13/1 compression, makes similar power to gas,(maybe a touch more) and is dirt cheap by comparison. Methanol will work well up to about 15.25 to 15.5 to 1. After that the tuneup needed starts taking power away and parts start getting hurt more often.
Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: Alcohol for a 572 Wedge ? - 10/25/13 03:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

You can make more power with race gas NA, but there are other reasons to run alcohol. All depends on what is important to you.

Alcohol is less expensive than race gas even though you use twice as much so that is one factor. It also runs cooler so if you race in hot weather you might be able to save money/weight on things like the radiator and water pump and stuff like that. But alcohol requires extra maintenance on the fuel system so it takes more time and can cost more to replace parts and such.





Be prepared,oil changes and other maintaince can be costly.


Oil lasts longer than in a gas motor once you understand how to run Methanol. Run the motor HOT. That is where it wants to run best anyway. I stage at 185, and let the motor heat up to 210 on the return road. The oil stays clear, no contamination from water or fuel, and especially no contamination from gasoline. The engine temp is easily managed. Lean out the motor for warm up, and because you run it hot hot lapping it isn't a problem. At the end of the day, be sure there is no fuel lingering in the cylinders. I have an injector, and I need to crank it with the fuel shut off a couple of times while the lines drain out through the nozzles. It can take twenty to thirty seconds before it all runs out.
I was told by my first engine builder that there is a cross over point with alky Vs gas. He claimed 7500 rpm or there abouts. Seeing the results of those that switch from gas to alky, I can buy into that. So is race gas a better fuel? Not in my mind. To get max Hp you need the best gas, and that costs a lot. If you are willing to run E85, it will handle up to around 13/1 compression, makes similar power to gas,(maybe a touch more) and is dirt cheap by comparison. Methanol will work well up to about 15.25 to 15.5 to 1. After that the tuneup needed starts taking power away and parts start getting hurt more often.



the oil in mine if anything looks clearer on alcohol than race fuel.The 15-1-15.5 CR is perfect.I run only the very best alcohol in my engines VP M1 it is a little higher than the standard but still in the $170-$180 range.A while back we bought 5 drums of VP M1 @ $160 each,that might be the better way to buy it.
Posted By: julian2007

Re: Alcohol for a 572 Wedge ? - 10/25/13 06:28 PM

I have been running alky for five years on three different engines and never used twice as much. All the motors I have used it on loved it and only used a small amount more than gas. Most of peoples maintenance issues with alky is do to being WAY too fat at idle.

It should heat up like gas and should not cool down coming down the return lane if it does its too fat. I stage mine at 160 and go threw the traps at 170 and when I get back to the trailer its 180.

The oil looks like new all the time and it is deadly consistent. Use a good top lube and empty out your system every year and clean it out with wd 40. Also monitor your vacuum if it drops off down track it is too fat.

For me alky is a set and forget it kind of fuel system but that came from talking to real alky pro's like AED and Aeromotive

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