Posted By: bobs69
Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/24/13 05:05 AM
Have you had any trouble running alcohol with an aluminum cell?
Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol?
Posted By: slippery440
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/24/13 02:01 PM
I have been running E85 for 3 years with aluminum lines with no problem. I leave the fuel in all winter.
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/24/13 03:04 PM
Quote:
I have been running E85 for 3 years with aluminum lines with no problem. I leave the fuel in all winter.
Sorry but you will have problems sooner than later.
Methanol/ethanol will corrode the aluminum eventually. It's best to drain the cell after use.
I ran aluminum fuel cells for 20 years and drained it after every weekend.
Plus storing alcohol fuel in a vented fuel cell allows water to get into your fuel and then corrosion will be 10X worse.
Posted By: greendart408
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/24/13 07:24 PM
I have ran methanol for 4yrs now. Made a front mounted alum cell. I leave it full yr rnd and when parked and vent plugged. Have zero corrosion issue. I do run a top lube and store car in a zero moisture building fwiw.
Posted By: rck850
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/24/13 07:35 PM
Kinda side tracking but What about those new Holley Ultra HP carbs that are all Aluminum? How are they going to hold up? I know they make an Ultra HP E85 carb now but what about the standard on and this crappy pump gas we have?
Posted By: slippery440
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/24/13 09:28 PM
I hear all the horror stories but not had a problem. Took the carb apart after sitting all winter(2 years) and found it clean. I changed the filter and I do use a micron filter and that was fine(2 years). I did use a stabilizer in the fall.No problem with the fuel pump witch is also aluminum.My car sits in a unheated pole barn all winter.
I test the fuel and not found any differance from stored to new from pump.If e85 is going to effect aluminum we better switch back to iron heads and manifolds.
I test the fuel and not found any differance from stored to new from pump.If e85 is going to effect aluminum we better switch back to iron heads and manifolds.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/24/13 10:16 PM
Quote:
Have you had any trouble running alcohol with an aluminum cell?
With a vent on the tank/cell the alky/E-85 WILL
suck up moisture and moisture is what corrodes the
alum..
if you keep the air away the alky/E-85 wont do anything
Posted By: jcc
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/24/13 10:59 PM
Quote:Quote:
Have you had any trouble running alcohol with an aluminum cell?
With a vent on the tank/cell the alky/E-85 WILL
suck up moisture and moisture is what corrodes the
alum..
if you keep the air away the alky/E-85 wont do anything
Well yes and no, the moisture and alcohol combine to form an acid that corrodes the alum. Keeping them separate is the solution, but very difficult.
I think this best describes the reaction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprotonation
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/24/13 11:35 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
Have you had any trouble running alcohol with an aluminum cell?
With a vent on the tank/cell the alky/E-85 WILL
suck up moisture and moisture is what corrodes the
alum..
if you keep the air away the alky/E-85 wont do anything
Well yes and no, the moisture and alcohol combine to form an acid that corrodes the alum. Keeping them separate is the solution, but very difficult.
I think this best describes the reaction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprotonation
I have 4 test samples still running(2 with E-85 and
2 with alky) 1 of each is air tight in alum the 2 others
are in a vented alum... the air tight shows ZERO corrosion
and the vented shows very little above the fuel level
(this has been 4 years now).. thats with topping
off both vented samples
Posted By: jcc
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/25/13 02:25 AM
Well there is an explanation for everything, not sure I am sharp enough to explain your experiment's results so far. But since you have a technical background, how do you observe corrosion inside an airtight alum container?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/25/13 02:38 AM
Quote:
Well there is an explanation for everything, not sure I am sharp enough to explain your experiment's results so far. But since you have a technical background, how do you observe corrosion inside an airtight alum container?
All 4 alum tanks I made with a real short filler neck
and gas caps(production stuff) and 2 have vents..
I just open the cap and look in with a flash light..
then change the fuel and put the cap back on.. pretty
simple... (to keep it air tight, fill it all the way up)
Posted By: cudasteve68
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/26/13 05:28 PM
Quote:Quote:
Well there is an explanation for everything, not sure I am sharp enough to explain your experiment's results so far. But since you have a technical background, how do you observe corrosion inside an airtight alum container?
All 4 alum tanks I made with a real short filler neck
and gas caps(production stuff) and 2 have vents..
I just open the cap and look in with a flash light..
then change the fuel and put the cap back on.. pretty
simple... (to keep it air tight, fill it all the way up)
I would anodize the tank. It is cheap to get done & you have a few choices of what colors you can get done. All of the race/street fuel fittings we make at work for customers are anodized for this reason. Mainly the import guys that run E-85
Posted By: dizuster
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/26/13 06:27 PM
I know that the one time I left e85 in my carb for the winter it corroded like crazy in the bowls. Lots of guys don't have issues but I sure did.
Posted By: dartman366
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/26/13 07:11 PM
Quote:I would say some of it is where you live and race too, race in a higher humidity area then your system would be more likely to capture moisture if it wasn't well sealed from the humid outside air, if you live in a dryer warmer climate you probably won't have near the issues,,I know guys that in the winter their garage floors would become wet if the temps during the day would rise up past the freezing point, I keep mine heated in the winter and have no issues with that, I believe that has a lot to do with individual result's.
I know that the one time I left e85 in my carb for the winter it corroded like crazy in the bowls. Lots of guys don't have issues but I sure did.
Posted By: Copper Dart
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/27/13 02:45 AM
Quote:Quote:
I have been running E85 for 3 years with aluminum lines with no problem. I leave the fuel in all winter.
Sorry but you will have problems sooner than later.
Methanol/ethanol will corrode the aluminum eventually...............................
Plus storing alcohol fuel in a vented fuel cell allows water to get into your fuel and then corrosion will be 10X worse.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/27/13 03:02 AM
Quote:
I know that the one time I left e85 in my carb for the winter it corroded like crazy in the bowls. Lots of guys don't have issues but I sure did.
The first year I ran E-85 I left it in the carb and
had the same issue... because its vented.. since then
I run gas through the system and run it dry then pour
in some Stabilizer
Posted By: dennismopar73
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/27/13 03:03 AM
When sitting for time we drain rinse and repeat,
sorry thats shampoo! lol
we drain and fill with reg gas run motors till the die on fuel put away for the winter ,seams to work well!
as for venting all fuel cell are vented same for all carbs ! they all can draw moisture since even reg gas has at least 10% alcohol, just remember alcohol is a drying agent not your friend on rubber products ,
sorry thats shampoo! lol
we drain and fill with reg gas run motors till the die on fuel put away for the winter ,seams to work well!
as for venting all fuel cell are vented same for all carbs ! they all can draw moisture since even reg gas has at least 10% alcohol, just remember alcohol is a drying agent not your friend on rubber products ,
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/27/13 05:54 AM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
Well there is an explanation for everything, not sure I am sharp enough to explain your experiment's results so far. But since you have a technical background, how do you observe corrosion inside an airtight alum container?
All 4 alum tanks I made with a real short filler neck
and gas caps(production stuff) and 2 have vents..
I just open the cap and look in with a flash light..
then change the fuel and put the cap back on.. pretty
simple... (to keep it air tight, fill it all the way up)
I would anodize the tank. It is cheap to get done & you have a few choices of what colors you can get done. All of the race/street fuel fittings we make at work for customers are anodized for this reason. Mainly the import guys that run E-85
You should have all of your fittings hard anodised , all of the aluminum lines done inside and outside as well as the cell inside and outside 
Posted By: Copper Dart
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/28/13 01:37 AM
You think that just a little 10% or so shouldnt hurt! Think again, this is the second tank i'm having to replace.
REC90 is all i'm going to use if I have my choice.
REC90 is all i'm going to use if I have my choice.
Posted By: Copper Dart
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/28/13 01:43 AM
the float almost completely disolved!
you go ahead and take your chances with that BUNK science that ethanol is a good thing for the Earth.
I will be making me some spending money replacing
"others" classic cars tanks very soon.
Heck, I just might become a Spectra Dealer. 
you go ahead and take your chances with that BUNK science that ethanol is a good thing for the Earth.
I will be making me some spending money replacing
"others" classic cars tanks very soon.
Heck, I just might become a Spectra Dealer.
Posted By: Copper Dart
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/28/13 01:45 AM
and another!
Posted By: Copper Dart
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/28/13 01:50 AM
Well maybe the insides of the fuel lines arnt affected nor are the insides of the say,..... fuel pump, float bowl, filler tubes, vent lines.
Naw, everything is working just fine right now. You don't know what you are talking about.
Naw, everything is working just fine right now. You don't know what you are talking about.
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/28/13 01:56 AM
Quote:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Well there is an explanation for everything, not sure I am sharp enough to explain your experiment's results so far. But since you have a technical background, how do you observe corrosion inside an airtight alum container?
All 4 alum tanks I made with a real short filler neck
and gas caps(production stuff) and 2 have vents..
I just open the cap and look in with a flash light..
then change the fuel and put the cap back on.. pretty
simple... (to keep it air tight, fill it all the way up)
I would anodize the tank. It is cheap to get done & you have a few choices of what colors you can get done. All of the race/street fuel fittings we make at work for customers are anodized for this reason. Mainly the import guys that run E-85
I looked into having the inside of my handmade tanks done on the inside and found out it was not able to be done at a affordable price.
This place did that kind of work as they applied dow7 to my mag dragster body, but was not able to hard anodize the inside of my fuel tanks at any price.
Kinsler Fuel injection is who warned me of the problem many years ago when they did my injection.
These are tanks out of my early TADs, the later tanks have a internal vent that went out of the bottom, very trick.
And a 632 donovan big chief injected on methanol, 1993. This car had a plastic Jaz fuel cell in it, perfect for alky use IMO. Actually this car had 2 fuel cells in it, the second held racing gas for the nitrous injection.
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/28/13 02:07 AM
And on the fittings, used to be the better "cutter" designed fittings were hard anodized. I used nothing but KB fittings and whoever was making them before KB I can't remember the name right now.
Then regular fittings were not hard anodized and were fine for gasoline use. But try using them with straight alky without top lube and they would get ate up in just a couple months. Even with top lube alky must be respected.
Then regular fittings were not hard anodized and were fine for gasoline use. But try using them with straight alky without top lube and they would get ate up in just a couple months. Even with top lube alky must be respected.
Posted By: cagebob1
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/28/13 03:03 PM
I've been watching this quite closely, as I will need to choose a fuel tank for my project soon. I was thinking that stainless was my only choice, as I plan on e-85 or methanol. Are you saying that a plastic fuel cell is an acceptable choice? Should the fuel lines be stainless also? This car probably won't get run each and every weekend, so it will sit around for periods at a time. 
Posted By: 23T Hemmee
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/28/13 04:18 PM
Quote:
Sorry but you will have problems sooner than later.
Methanol/ethanol will corrode the aluminum eventually. It's best to drain the cell after use.
There is no real timetable because every situation is different but it will happen. The top lubes today definitely do help but won't totally stop it. An old trick that I learned from an alky racer back in the 70's was to "pickle the tank" with a mix of 1 gallon of vinegar to 3 gallons of water, let it sit overnight or longer. I had a Moon T-tank on my dragboat that had started to corrode, don't ask me what the chemical process is, I don't know but it worked. Could go a whole season without getting any chalky residue in the fuel filter, which for me was the warning sign that corrosion was starting. Treating the tank at beginning and end of season has become a regular part of preventive maintenance program.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Aluminum fuel cell with alcohol? - 08/28/13 06:35 PM
Quote:
Well maybe the insides of the fuel lines arnt affected nor are the insides of the say,..... fuel pump, float bowl, filler tubes, vent lines.
Naw, everything is working just fine right now. You don't know what you are talking about.
Those are all steel part that you show.. so its rust
and rust is caused by water and air.... in the fuel
lab we went to stainless tanks when we first started
the methanol(M-85) program but when we went to E-85
we changed over to blow molded plastic tanks with a
vapor barrier inside to control the permeation of
the fuel through the plastic(vapors seep through)
and kill the emissions that we had to play with..
there is a few ways to eliminate the corrosion...
either eliminate the water, or eliminate the air...
in reality you cant do that so plastic is the easiest
way to eliminate the corrosion