440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs.

Posted By: viperblue72

440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/11/13 06:17 AM

I'm trying to build a 440 on a budget. All machine work is done, and with ARP bolts the mains checked fine without honing. My question is how far can I go before I should worry about taking it further to studs?
And or what is your theory or experience?

Posted By: Nitrojunkee

Re: 440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/11/13 02:17 PM

Quote:

I'm trying to build a 440 on a budget. All machine work is done, and with ARP bolts the mains checked fine without honing. My question is how far can I go before I should worry about taking it further to studs?
And or what is your theory or experience?

Imo, if you're staying under 500hp, bolts are probably fine. I chose to have my 496" raised deck build align honed with studs. But for what I'm doing, the extra $300 for the studs and hone, weren't a big hit for my budget. Especially for the added piece of mind. That said, if you can swing it, go with studs and have it align honed with them.

Posted By: '72CudaRacer

Re: 440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/11/13 02:36 PM

If you're going to the trouble and added expense of main studs, this is also the time to add a stud girdle. I agree, under 500 hp, none of it is needed.
When I built my current engine I went with main studs, but not the girdle. One season of racing, and I found #2 main cap broke in half. Luckily, I found it before anything else got damaged. This engine made approx 580 hp.

Brian

Posted By: rck850

Re: 440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/11/13 06:14 PM

This thread really has me kinda worried. I've got factory bolts holding the crank in my 440 and this year I went from stock heads and mild cam to RPM's, .557 cam and large tube headers. I'm probably between 520 and 550hp. This motor is in no way due for a rebuild, I don't race or really hammer the car but I don't drive the grandma either.

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: 440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/11/13 06:50 PM

Did some work on a BB Chevy a while back w/George Koopal and this puppy had the stock main bolts and went 7.? in the 1/4 mile in a dragster. Not sure of hp but well over 700...........

I personally run studs in all of my junk and the arp`s in my 400 block go WAY back 15+ years from my 360.........

Posted By: viperblue72

Re: 440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/14/13 05:33 AM

Do you guys think I will be okay with this combo?
10.25 compression
290-300 cfm 440source heads
mild street solid roller like a xr286
rpm intake
950 carb

Posted By: Sport440

Re: 440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/14/13 06:16 AM

Quote:

Do you guys think I will be okay with this combo?
10.25 compression
290-300 cfm 440source heads
mild street solid roller like a xr286
rpm intake
950 carb

\
ARP bolts will be fine for your combo. Studs will be a whole lot more work and not needed at your level.

Posted By: MoparBilly

Re: 440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/14/13 07:15 AM

Quote:

I'm trying to build a 440 on a budget. All machine work is done, and with ARP bolts the mains checked fine without honing. My question is how far can I go before I should worry about taking it further to studs?
And or what is your theory or experience?

Anytime I do a BB these days, it gets studs.

But my experience is this: If you are conservative on ignition timing, and avoid detonation, you can make plenty of power with ARP, or Stock bolts.

My first 440 was stock bolted mains, crank, stock rods with Mopar Performance bolts, and .030 over Sealed Power forged pistons with no valve reliefs. It had 346 heads with stock valves and a 284/484 purple shaft cam, stock intake with a phenolic spacer and a 750DP.

This was in my daily driver 73 Cuda, and went 13.31 with 3.91 gears in 1986.

We moved from Oklahoma to Phoenix, in 1987, and I put 30,000 street miles on that engine from '86-91. In 1987 I added a torker II, and taller 28X9 slicks and eventually ran a best of 12.81-107.6. In 1991, I traded for a small plate system, and with 125HP went 11.93-114.8, and got booted from the track for no roll bar.

My Wife insisted that I build a dedicated drag car, and leave my street racing days behind. So I picked up a 69 Road Runner with a cage, and pulled the 440 out of the Cuda.

While I had the 440 out, I slid in new rod bearings, but left the mains alone. I added a 292/509 purple shaft, ported 906's with 214/181 valves, and ran 100's of 11.70-11.90's over the next 3 years from 1992-1995. The nitrous plate had a plugged N20 filter that limited me to a best of 11.10-120 in the 20 or so nitrous passes during this time.

After the 1995 season, I sold the shortblock to my youngest brother. He added ported 915 heads, an M-1 intake and an 850 DP. In his street driven 76 Duster, it ran 11.60s to 11.80's, and went 10.90's with a plate system. He sold the Duster less engine a year later, when he had the opportunity to buy a back-halved 70 AMX. With the engine out of the car, another brother borrowed it to get his back- halved 69 Coronet on the track. It went 11.70's as well, and 10.56-126 on squeeze. In 1998 youngest brother finally dropped the 440 in his 2850lb backhalved, ladder barred 70 AMX, with a powerglide trans and 9 inch rearend. He could barely run SST with that engine, usually between 10.85-10.95-122 range. At the 1999 Monster Mopar race, the 13 year old engine laid down a 9.74-134.2 on a single plate system. In the 2000 season, it developed an annoying habit of losing oil pressure on deceleration, then it began to slow down. We pulled it out and retired it. When we removed the crank, the main bearings fell out on their own, having no tension left in them, 1 lobe on the 292/509 was going flat but everything else checked out fine. It's still on my back porch awaiting it's chance to go again.

Posted By: viperblue72

Re: 440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/14/13 07:35 AM

Thanks- that was an interesting story of a 440s life.

Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: 440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/14/13 08:02 AM

The ARP bolts will be fine. The studs are better, but may require line hone of the mains?

Posted By: Nitrojunkee

Re: 440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/14/13 03:04 PM

Quote:

The ARP bolts will be fine. The studs are better, but may require line hone of the mains?

Yes. You definitely want to have your block align honed WITH the studs you're going to use.

OP, you'll get tons of opinions on which way to go. Everyone uses what has worked for them in the past, which is totally cool. I like studs. But I do think girdles are kind of overkill. If you're going to make over 700hp, an aftermarket block is probably the way to go, instead of band aiding with a girdle...JMO.

Posted By: Von

Re: 440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/14/13 08:51 PM

Studs or bolts...doesnt matter...they arent the weak link.

Girdles=waste of money, another bandaid...

Posted By: '72CudaRacer

Re: 440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/15/13 12:01 AM

Quote:

Studs or bolts...doesnt matter...they arent the weak link.

Girdles=waste of money, another bandaid...

Really???
Nice to find out that I wasted $400 on a main stud girdle. I guess that I should have spent $4000 on a aftermarket block to have a 580 hp engine that would live.
The OP stated that he's trying to stay on a budget. He's cirtianly not trying to make 700 hp. All of us don't have an unlimited supply of $$$$. If we did, we would all have KB alum blocks.

Brian Dunnigan

Posted By: viperblue72

Re: 440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/15/13 12:30 AM

I am going to stick with the bolts for now guys. I realize studs would be better.
I also think bolts will be fine, just wanted opinions. I do only plan on making 550 horsepower.
I'd be willing to bet that many 440s were making more power than that before quality bolts even existed.

Posted By: Von

Re: 440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/15/13 02:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Studs or bolts...doesnt matter...they arent the weak link.

Girdles=waste of money, another bandaid...

Really???
Nice to find out that I wasted $400 on a main stud girdle. I guess that I should have spent $4000 on a aftermarket block to have a 580 hp engine that would live.
The OP stated that he's trying to stay on a budget. He's cirtianly not trying to make 700 hp. All of us don't have an unlimited supply of $$$$. If we did, we would all have KB alum blocks.

Brian Dunnigan

IMO, yes....you did waste 400 on a girdle. Whats the weak link now and probably was the weakest link to begin with??? But hey, if it makes you feel good, its your money. I stated my opinion, you stated yours. No biggie.

When one of the most respected builders on here says they are a waste...they most likely are.

Posted By: bcrproducts

Re: 440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/15/13 06:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Studs or bolts...doesnt matter...they arent the weak link.

Girdles=waste of money, another bandaid...

Really???
Nice to find out that I wasted $400 on a main stud girdle. I guess that I should have spent $4000 on a aftermarket block to have a 580 hp engine that would live.
The OP stated that he's trying to stay on a budget. He's cirtianly not trying to make 700 hp. All of us don't have an unlimited supply of $$$$. If we did, we would all have KB alum blocks.

Brian Dunnigan

IMO, yes....you did waste 400 on a girdle. Whats the weak link now and probably was the weakest link to begin with??? But hey, if it makes you feel good, its your money. I stated my opinion, you stated yours. No biggie.

When one of the most respected builders on here says they are a waste...they most likely are.

When one of the most respected builders on here says they are a waste...they most likely are.

Hmm who are we referring to and what grounds are they speaking from. I have sold hundreds of sets of caps and girdles to very happy customers that are making 650 plus hp with stock blocks. Are some going to fail--likely but even race blocks have failures. Race blocks are not in the budget of all. There is a time and a place for an aftermarket block but there is a time and place for the girdle set up we developed. Bring me facts before you poopoo a product.

Greg

Posted By: Nitrojunkee

Re: 440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/15/13 09:14 PM

I don't think anyone was bashing "your" product. The guy simply doesn't feel they are worth the money, and I agree with him.

You said yourself that some of the customers you've sold aftermarket caps and girdles to will incur failures in spite of the addition of those parts... You kind of proved his point. Parts break. If you've built higher horsepower engines in the past without said parts, and have not experience breakage, then why change what you're doing and spend money on parts that you've never needed from your own personal experiences? Just my opinion.

Posted By: Jerry

Re: 440 w/ ARP Main Bolts vs. Studs. - 08/15/13 10:04 PM

As with anything performance built there are going to be risk and also you trying to minimize the chance of failure. did you get lucky and not need a girdle and happen to catch cap walk before your block failed? maybe. is the average guy who buys a girlde to push his engine a little harder going to pulling it apart at the end of every season to inspect it? probably not. this is the guy the girdle kits are marketed towards, the kit was developed to put the best possible parts in combination to help hold your engine together at higher than stock power levels. there is no doubt that a girdle will help keep your main caps from dancing around, the only question remains is will you catch your caps before they fail if you don't have a girdle.

and back to the ops original question, you'll be fine with the bolts at 550 hp. studs would be better, but your arp bolts are not the weak link at that power level. good luck with your engine project and if you see cap walk next time you tear it down, know that we are here to help with an in budget solution to the problem.