Lost another cam

Lost another cam - 07/10/13 05:11 AM

So...after losing a couple of lifters last year- pushrods popped through the disc on a couple of my old Comp lifters- and bending a couple pushrods, I upgraded to a set of Ferrea tool steel lifters and .145 wall chromoly pushrods. Sure enough, in spite of a diligent lifter break-in I appear to have wiped a couple of lobes. Again. The lash was still where I had set it before we went to the track, yet when relashing tonight, I discovered that one exhaust was only opening just over .400" and another was even worse.
So. It's roller time. Does anyone make a small block roller lifter that literally drops in to a non-bushed block? There are two Comp Cams grinds that would allow me to use my current springs and rockers without using up my valve-piston clearance.
Aaaaaargh!

Posted By: mopardude318

Re: Lost another cam - 07/10/13 06:04 AM

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=192303

http://www.MRLPERFORMANCE.com/

Posted By: royalflush

Re: Lost another cam - 07/10/13 06:42 AM

what oil are you running?

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Lost another cam - 07/10/13 01:22 PM

The Comp 828 will work.. its a solid body... dont
know if you need push rod oiling

Posted By: mopar dave

Re: Lost another cam - 07/10/13 02:06 PM

when you get your new lifters in leave the intake off and prime the engine while turning over by hand. get each lifter at the tip of each cam lobe and look for oil leakage out the bottom of each lifter bore. I had that problem 8-10yrs back before Mikes MRL lifters were available. I tried cranes and comp roller lifters and they both leaked bad. I ended up with a PBM lifter made by Morel,which is a great lifter for $250 maybe $300 now. erson cams carrys them. my next set will come from MRL since I really like the bearing getting oiled directly. never an issue with the PBM's with 600# spring pressure and some street driving thou. i'm sure Mikes wont have that problem,but never hurts to check with a non bushed lifter bore. just a heads up.

Posted By: mopar dave

Re: Lost another cam - 07/10/13 02:12 PM

Mike, I believe the comp 828 is one that leaked like a sieve. the other was a crane pro $880 set. the PBM's are non pushrod oiling.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Lost another cam - 07/10/13 02:23 PM

Quote:

Mike, I believe the comp 828 is one that leaked like a sieve. the other was a crane pro $880 set. the PBM's are non pushrod oiling.

I was running them for years in my back up W-2 engine..
always had good pressure... if you look at my lifter
post you can see them... thats at .640 lift(valve)
so if you go more you MIGHT uncover the bottom

Posted By: mopar dave

Re: Lost another cam - 07/10/13 02:54 PM

cant remember what lift I had then,but I think it was about .650. may be more of an issue with the block. mine is a 71 360 block.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Lost another cam - 07/10/13 03:05 PM

Quote:

cant remember what lift I had then,but I think it was about .650. may be more of an issue with the block. mine is a 71 360 block.

Those oil passages are sorta random to where they
end up at since its part of the casting... mine is
a 68 or 69 340 block

Posted By: Triple Threat

Re: Lost another cam - 07/10/13 05:58 PM

The Comp 828's require grinding on the block. Comp 8043's have the inverted link bar and will clear.

Posted By: mopar dave

Re: Lost another cam - 07/10/13 07:11 PM

the morels/pbm required minor grinding also.

Posted By: bill_greenwood

Re: Lost another cam - 07/11/13 06:59 AM

I use Pennzoil 20w50 race oil, plus applied copious amounts of cam break-in lube on lifters and lobes. If there's an upside, I have enough spring to upgrade to a mild roller, and shouldn't really need to go to a bronze dist. gear. I'm more annoyed than anything. This was supposed to be at least as low maintenance as my old 340 car, and I will be pulling the motor for the fifth time in 7 years......

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Lost another cam - 07/11/13 02:44 PM

Quote:

The Comp 828's require grinding on the block. Comp 8043's have the inverted link bar and will clear.

I did very little grinding to get them to fit... I
did some grinding on the heads so I could make sure I
could get them all out with the heads on.. thats a must
for DW... just in case

Posted By: racerhog

Re: Lost another cam - 07/11/13 07:11 PM

Get rid of the Pennzoil..... I lost 2 motors from there crap... And 4 motors from Union 76's crap..
I went to Kendall and never looked back...
Just my 2 cents.
Oh and I run Castrol in all street cars....

Posted By: mopar dave

Re: Lost another cam - 07/11/13 07:14 PM

20/50 brad penn and now 15/50 amsoil. good stuff

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Lost another cam - 07/11/13 08:08 PM

Kendal oil years ago now called Brad Penn. 20-50 or 10-30 to get my pressure dialed in and never lost a solid cam in 38 years. Never even removed the inner spring for breakin but if the cam was over 600 lift I would recommend that step. Matt's solid cam is on its third rebuild (7 plus years) of racing every weekend from May to the middle of November.

Posted By: Crizila

Re: Lost another cam - 07/11/13 09:27 PM

Quote:

I use Pennzoil 20w50 race oil, plus applied copious amounts of cam break-in lube on lifters and lobes. If there's an upside, I have enough spring to upgrade to a mild roller, and shouldn't really need to go to a bronze dist. gear. I'm more annoyed than anything. This was supposed to be at least as low maintenance as my old 340 car, and I will be pulling the motor for the fifth time in 7 years......

IMO, you never solved the problem from the first cam failure. Are the lifters / lobes that failed on the same lifter bores for both failures? Look closely at the sides of the lifters that failed for vertical scratching that the other lifters don't have. You might consider burnishing the lifter bores. Excessive spring pressure, worn out lifter bores, dirt, lack of lube, improper break-in, can all be causes, but IMO, the lifers that failed weren't turning in the lifter bores - as being the most likely.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Lost another cam - 07/11/13 10:31 PM

Quote:

I use Pennzoil 20w50 race oil, plus applied copious amounts of cam break-in lube on lifters and lobes. If there's an upside, I have enough spring to upgrade to a mild roller, and shouldn't really need to go to a bronze dist. gear. I'm more annoyed than anything. This was supposed to be at least as low maintenance as my old 340 car, and I will be pulling the motor for the fifth time in 7 years......

With all the cam troubles you've had why would you even thnk of not running either a bronze or phenolic distributor drive gear

Same thing on the springs, to little, not enough, spring pressure kills roller liftesr

When we, you and me, cut corners, Mr Murphy will kick our tails

Do it correctly once

BTW,sorry for your cam troubles

If you race long enough you will have parts fail

BTW, I would shoot for 250 lbs on the seats and at least 550 lbs opened over the nose of the cam, max lift. Best bet is to follow the cam makers recommendations on spring pressures.

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Lost another cam - 07/12/13 12:45 AM

Quote:

Get rid of the Pennzoil..... I lost 2 motors from there crap... And 4 motors from Union 76's crap..
I went to Kendall and never looked back...
Just my 2 cents.
Oh and I run Castrol in all street cars....

People make a big deal out of Pennzoil, I've never thought it to be anything special, and most lab tests prove it to be just a standard name brand oil.

Run VR1, Brad Penn, or Cam2 Blue Blood. The Cam2 claims to have 2100 ppm zinc and 1800 ppm phosphorous.

And I'd break the cam in with a special break-in oil.

Whats the Pennzoil racing stuff? Is that their synthetic or something?

Posted By: Twostick

Re: Lost another cam - 07/12/13 05:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I use Pennzoil 20w50 race oil, plus applied copious amounts of cam break-in lube on lifters and lobes. If there's an upside, I have enough spring to upgrade to a mild roller, and shouldn't really need to go to a bronze dist. gear. I'm more annoyed than anything. This was supposed to be at least as low maintenance as my old 340 car, and I will be pulling the motor for the fifth time in 7 years......

IMO, you never solved the problem from the first cam failure. Are the lifters / lobes that failed on the same lifter bores for both failures? Look closely at the sides of the lifters that failed for vertical scratching that the other lifters don't have. You might consider burnishing the lifter bores. Excessive spring pressure, worn out lifter bores, dirt, lack of lube, improper break-in, can all be causes, but IMO, the lifers that failed weren't turning in the lifter bores - as being the most likely.

Kevin

Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Lost another cam - 07/12/13 06:45 AM

If you've had this many cam issues with this block, something else is wrong. I'd lose the block before assuming its the cams fault, and investing in an even more costly cam setup in the same block.

Posted By: bill_greenwood

Re: Lost another cam - 07/14/13 10:21 PM

I think the cam loss this time around is strictly due to the new lifters failing to mate properly to the cam. The first cam loss was probably my fault, and I've used this current cam since then. It even went back in after blowing it up once and has given no issues. I decided to go with new lifters (Ferrea tool steel with the EDM oil hole) as the original MP lifters (I mistakenly claimed them to be from Comp Cams) had failed. Last year I had the pushrods blow through the disc on three. Replaced those with used ones I scrounged from a friend with no issues. I had also experienced some pushrods grief with my old .080 wall 5/16 chromoly units, so I replaced both, hoping to gain a measure of reliability.
I will take look at valve springs, but at this point I'm not convinced I need a big jump in spring pressure to run a mild roller that has a very similar profile to my current flat tappet. Ditto for the bronze distributor gear, but I'll give it a good deal of thought. FWIW I'm giving serious thought to Comp's .550 lift "street roller" that has a profile no terribly unlike te MP 528 solid I currently run. I have good valve-piston clearance now, and would maintain most of it with this cam. They also have a .575 roller that has a nice profile, but would require going back to 1.5 rockers in order to maintain a suitable vtp clearance. Has anyone here run either of those cams?

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Lost another cam - 07/15/13 12:45 AM

Bill, once you see a roller cam lobe of similar lift and duration compared to the lobes of a solid lifter or hydraulic lifter you will see why you will want to have the opened and closed pressures the cam maker recommends

You can do more damage to the valve train when using a solid roller cam by running to little pressure, not so by running 50+lbs or more spring pressurres

Same thing on the pushrod diameter and wall thickness, bigger and thicker is better and stiffer

Good luck, regardless of your choices

Posted By: 68 HEMI GTS

Re: Lost another cam - 07/15/13 01:03 AM

Quote:

FWIW I'm giving serious thought to Comp's .550 lift "street roller" that has a profile no terribly unlike te MP 528 solid I currently run. I have good valve-piston clearance now, and would maintain most of it with this cam. They also have a .575 roller that has a nice profile, but would require going back to 1.5 rockers in order to maintain a suitable vtp clearance. Has anyone here run either of those cams?

i've ran both those cams in the same mild 440. they ET'd the same in my car. overall i liked the .550 better (street car), is made good torque down low and was just a happy running cam all around.

Posted By: Commando1

Re: Lost another cam - 07/15/13 01:01 PM

Quote:

Mike, I believe the comp 828 is one that leaked like a sieve. the other was a crane pro $880 set. the PBM's are non pushrod oiling.

From personal experience and from reading an awful lot over the years, the problem starts with using Comp anything.
I may be totally wrong but I'm never using Comp anything again.