Moparts
440 Stroker Build Questions
Posted By: tywebb2
440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/10/13 11:29 PM
I came across a 4.380 stroke Callies forged crank and was wondering how much block clearancing I would need to do (440)? I have been thinking about doing a Stroker build for a while but wasn't going to go that long on the stroke.
Can I still use the original oil pick up or will I need a special setup? Would that crank need special pistons or rods?
This is going to go in a 72 cuda that currently has a 440 in it running a best of 11.673 but is mostly street driven. Would the 4.380 crank be too much/overkill?
Posted By: B G Racing
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/10/13 11:42 PM
You didn't mention what journal size but at any rate if you have stock mopar journal you will grind too much at the oil pickup port and have too much tube interference.With that big a stroke I would opt for external oiling.
Posted By: 383man
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/11/13 12:01 AM
Myself I would pass on it if you are looking to just build a nice stroker for your street car. Thats gonna be a bit of work trying to make it work in a stock block if you plan to use a stock block. I went with w 4.15 crank in my stroker as it cleared good in the 440 block I used and was only close at my oil pick up. I use a .030 over 440 with the 4.15 crank for 493 cubes. I wanted to keep mine very simple and easy so it did not run into alot of money. Just my oinion but it sounds like that would be alot more work going with that much stroke. Ron
Posted By: tywebb2
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/11/13 01:36 AM
The crank has been sitting in the guys garage for a while and has some light surface rust on the journals. He said if they were turned down to .010 it would be a good piece.
Even for cheap it sounds like I should pass on it. I was originally wanting to do something like your engine Ron but when the oportunity came up to get this crank for a couple hundred bucks I thought it might be worth a shot. I really don't want to fool with external oiling in my street car. The block would be a stock 440 block. Bore is currently stock but next time around will most likely end up 030 over.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/11/13 02:14 PM
Quote:
The crank has been sitting in the guys garage for a while and has some light surface rust on the journals. He said if they were turned down to .010 it would be a good piece.
Even for cheap it sounds like I should pass on it. I was originally wanting to do something like your engine Ron but when the oportunity came up to get this crank for a couple hundred bucks I thought it might be worth a shot. I really don't want to fool with external oiling in my street car. The block would be a stock 440 block. Bore is currently stock but next time around will most likely end up 030 over.
How much HP do you want to make and more importantly why has a crank that expensive been sitting in this guys garage rusting for a couple years? What did it come out of ?
I wouldn't even consider buying it without a magnaflux test. Since it needs to be turned .010 you might consider cutting it down to 2.2 rod size as that opens up your rod selection immensely. But yes that is custom piston territory unless you get lucky and there is a shelf piston/rod combo that would work with that.
Posted By: tywebb2
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/11/13 05:45 PM
I didn't end up picking up the crank today but did get a 440 short block so let the games begin
it's a '76 vintage with stock pistons, crank and rods. I am thinking about either a 4.15 or 4.25 stroker crank.
I am not sure what hp I want but I would like to build a solid street/strip stroked 440 that doesn't require a lot of maintenance.
Right now I have a standard stroke 030 over 440 with trw six pak pistons (not zero decked), 84cc eddy heads, 509 cam, eddy rpm intake, mighty demon 850, in my 72 cuda. It has been in the car for 10 years and am just looking for more.
I have the following parts that I will move over from my existing engine and/or are already in the car
- 84cc eddy heads
- eddy rpm dual plane or mopar m1 single plane
- 850 mighty demon
- comp cams pro mag rockers
- msd 6al
- msd billet distributor
- hooker 2" primary headers into 3" full exhaust
- 727 w/reverse man valve body and 10" turbo action vert
- 4.10 gears
- 28" tire
- pump gas
Based on the parts above would you go with a 4.15 or 4.25 stroke crank?
Any cam recommendations?
Posted By: 383man
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/11/13 07:01 PM
I cant tell you what crank to use but I used the 4.15 crank in my .030 440 block for 493 cubes. Your eddy heads should work fine but I would have a nice porting job done on them if not already done. I used Indy EZ heads because I may want to step it up more in the future and I feel with good porting they have more potential then the RPM heads. But a good ported set of RPM heads will work good. I use a solid flat tappt cam speced by Dwayne Porter and I used the 440Source 4.15 stroker kit. The specs are 264 & 270 @ .050 with .585 & .592 lift. I use Hughes 1.6 rockers for about .630 lift and its has a 110 LSA and I have the cam on a 106 centerline. I had to use dished pistons with the 75cc EZ heads to get pump gas 10.6 and good quench as they have a quench pad on them. I went with the Indy dual plane intake that looks like an RPM intake on steroids. It has an 850 DP and 2" TTI headers with 3" TTI exh and the X pipe. Your combo sounds like it will work ok as long as you get the right cam and port the RPM heads. Good luck with it and I hope to see you at Cecil sometime as I plan to go next Saturday. Ron
Posted By: domingo
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/11/13 07:06 PM
4.25 with small chevy journals and rods.
Or 4.15 with chrysler journals and rods.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/11/13 08:18 PM
Quote:
4.25 with small chevy journals and rods.
This
Posted By: FastmOp
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/11/13 08:26 PM
I love my 440 source 4.500 stroke crank. Hi fives in the 1/8 and still getting faster.
Posted By: tywebb2
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/11/13 09:34 PM
I was kinda leaning towards the 4.25. Would it be bad if I didn't port the eddy heads? I was just hoping to build a good bottom end and then bolt on the heads/intake/carb from my existing setup to save some $. I figured that alone would be far better than what I have now.
Any other cam recommendations?
Posted By: Sport440
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/11/13 11:01 PM
Quote:
Quote:
4.25 with small chevy journals and rods.
This
I dont know what to tell you on the cam, Im thinking 265* @.050 .600 lift for something mild or 270*@ .050 .625 lift for more race then street. Id use the Comp SQ designs.
Posted By: dogdays
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/12/13 01:58 AM
Back up! a Callies crank for a couple of hundred dollars and you didn't buy it? Let someone in on the deal then. If it is Chrysler journals it can be reground to a whole bunch of different strokes using Chevy rod journal sizes.
R.
Posted By: Twostick
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/12/13 02:37 AM
I would buy the Callies crank conditional to it passing inspection on my dime and go from there. No replacement for displacement.
Kevin
Posted By: Sport440
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/12/13 03:23 AM
Quote:
I love my 440 source 4.500 stroke crank. Hi fives in the 1/8 and still getting faster.
I see that 440 source does have the 4.5 stroke crank for a RB block, thats news to me.
Can it be used with with the stock internal oil pickup as the OP desires. If so that would be a viable option for the OP, IMO
But ,Im going to guess not.
Fill us in Fastmop
Posted By: Scott58
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/12/13 04:07 AM
My stock 440 block stroker uses a 4.375 crank with chevy rod journals, .030 over gives 520 CID. Muscle Motors (steel rod) stroker kit (they built the short block). I had MCH port the "stealth" heads, used a stock Hemi pan, stock 1/2" pickup, it all fit fine, used the MP stroker windage tray out of the box with no mods. With stock steel valve covers (I did have to do interior mods to the valve covers for fit) and blue paint, it looks like a pup. In your cuda high 10's should be possible if you can get the torque to the ground! The heads are a little small for that displacement (it's definitely NOT a "race effort" type engine), but it sure does pull down low and is a great street/strip engine! Spend as much as you want on valvetrain, I went with 1.6 rockers and a .590 MP solid, a Street Dominator intake and 950 HP, and 2" headers. Runs 122 in the quarter in my 70 RR, your car should be lighter.
Scott
Posted By: FastmOp
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/12/13 04:33 AM
I run an external line pickup. But I also run an Aluminum rod between 440source crank and rods. So I'm not a good one to say. But if 440source says u can then u can. I think I had to grind the pickup boss about the same as my 4.150 Chrysler journal motor but its been a few years lol
Posted By: tywebb2
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/12/13 05:21 AM
If I remember the story right the crank was out of an alcky car and the guy said after a season of the rods smacking on the crank journals they develop cracks. Said if I had It manga fluxed it would show cracks but if it was turned down it would be fine for a pump gas car. That scared me a bit so I didn't pull,the trigger on it. IDK...does hat story sound right? How much would I have tied up in machining the used crank vs buying a new one?
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/12/13 06:23 AM
Quote:
If I remember the story right the crank was out of an alcky car and the guy said after a season of the rods smacking on the crank journals they develop cracks. Said if I had It manga fluxed it would show cracks but if it was turned down it would be fine for a pump gas car. That scared me a bit so I didn't pull,the trigger on it. IDK...does hat story sound right? How much would I have tied up in machining the used crank vs buying a new one?
cracks are cracks , you made a wise choice.
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/12/13 11:26 AM
That old crank can be a real can of worms with a lot of work to bring it into usable shape. But if it is center counter weighted, that is worth a VERY good look. Those center counter weights take a lot of stress out of the combo, and help a stock block live a lot. So for my $$ I would see if the current owner will go along with the plan of having it magged, to make sure it will clean up when stroked. Then tally all the expense of making it useable, and see where it compares to an off the shelf crank.
I would put the biggest stroke in it that will work with what ever oiling system you are willing to run. Check into all of your options on external oiling systems before saying no to the idea. In a street car, big cubes are the best for all around driveability and low rpm torque. You can run a very tight converter and still ET very well. A 4.5+ stroke motor makes a real impression on you when you hit the loud pedal. And with rpm heads and a 4.5+ stroke, you can shift it below 6,000 rpm and run like a scalded cat! Look at the 4.5 stroke kit from 440source for piston and rod options. I believe they have a long rod, dished piston combo for streetable compression.
Posted By: Defbob
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/12/13 05:38 PM
I would go with the 4.25 stoker kit.
Here is a link to my motor build
511ci build
Posted By: Challenger
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/13/13 12:35 AM
I don't think those alky cranks have the flywheel ring on the back of the crank to center the flywheel? But I could be wrong!
Posted By: dmking
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/13/13 01:10 AM
is this 76 block at least the one with the thicker mains and wider bore supports?
just watch what amount you want from the 440 block in the end
i split mine up through the middle 3 mains on a 73 block. i am using a thicker 76 but this is the last 440 based block i build. i got lucky it did not destroy anything parts wise.
on my a body i had to remove the stock engine mount on driver side with the external oil pickup.
if you are starting from scratch build a 400 low deck stroker.
Posted By: 74-440Charger
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/13/13 01:29 AM
Congrats on a nice build. I am curious about the headers you used and how you got them to clear the head studs, it looks like they will hit.
Posted By: tywebb2
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/13/13 02:20 AM
Why would you go with a stroked 400 over a 440? I thought there was no replacement for displacement? I have the 440 block now..... what is the advantage of the 400?
Posted By: ahy
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/13/13 02:46 AM
Rule of thumb, the stock block starts getting iffy around 600 HP without extra effort like girdles and block fill. Low decks have their + and -. The shorter bores are stiffer which is a plus. On the minus side, a stroker needs a shorter rod, short piston (low compression height) or both.
With Eddy heads, you will be under 600 HP unless its a max effort, fully ported big cam build.
For what you are doing the RB should be fine. The longer rod/taller piston can help it last longer.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/13/13 04:11 AM
Quote:
Why would you go with a stroked 400 over a 440? I thought there was no replacement for displacement? I have the 440 block now..... what is the advantage of the 400?
The stock bore size on the 400 is 4.342, correct? 
As already said the 400 blocks are a lot stouter(thicker) in the main webs than the same year 440 blocks are so it is a better peice to start with 
My current 400 block with a 4.25 stroke crank in it(11.29 to 1 comp. ratio, 505 C.I.) has made 687 HP at 6300 RPM with a set of Eddy RPM CNC ported by Jeff at MCH with a Mopar 4500 M1 intake and a Holley 1050 CFM Dominator on it Better heads and more compression would make more power 
My 518 motor made 727 HP with a set of Indy SR max wedge ports and the same carb. as this one ran on Oregon pump gas
Posted By: 383man
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/13/13 04:35 AM
The 440 block will work fine up to 600 hp or a bit more. I used the 440 in case I want to run a crossram intake one day. I never dynoed mine but I would guess about 600 hp to push my 3700 lb 63 to 10.70's at almost 125 mph thru the pipes on 92 pump. Ron
Posted By: tywebb2
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/13/13 04:59 AM
600 hp is more than enough for my cuda. Running best of 11.673 now and would like to be able to run low 11's without breaking a sweat while keeping it streetable. I have caltracs with mono leafs so hopefully I can get the extra torque to the ground? Will an 8.75" rear hold up though?
How many hp would you estimate my current 440 is making? It .030 over, stock crank, stock rods, trw six pax pistons (not zero decked), 9.9:1 compression, ootb eddy 84cc heads, rpm intake, comp pro mag rockers, 850 mighty demon, msd 6al, 2" primaries to 3.5" collector with 3" exhaust, 509 hyd cam.
Posted By: CSK
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/13/13 05:13 AM
guessing on 3700 with driver ? 474 hp ie wallace calculator .
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/13/13 05:34 AM
Quote:
I was kinda leaning towards the 4.25. Would it be bad if I didn't port the eddy heads?
yes
Posted By: Defbob
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/13/13 11:47 AM
Quote:
Congrats on a nice build. I am curious about the headers you used and how you got them to clear the head studs, it looks like they will hit.
I the car has some old Hooker Super Comp 1-7/8" headers and they cleared the studs with no problem. Motor needs 2" or 2-1/8" headers.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/13/13 02:40 PM
Quote:
600 hp is more than enough for my cuda. Running best of 11.673 now and would like to be able to run low 11's without breaking a sweat while keeping it streetable. I have caltracs with mono leafs so hopefully I can get the extra torque to the ground? Will an 8.75" rear hold up though?
How many hp would you estimate my current 440 is making? It .030 over, stock crank, stock rods, trw six pax pistons (not zero decked), 9.9:1 compression, ootb eddy 84cc heads, rpm intake, comp pro mag rockers, 850 mighty demon, msd 6al, 2" primaries to 3.5" collector with 3" exhaust, 509 hyd cam.
What's in your motor for parts doesn't help HP calculation , your MPH is in your sig 115 and change , what does the car weigh with you in it ?
Posted By: tywebb2
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/13/13 05:42 PM
It has been many years since I weighed the car but it is a full interior car with alum heads, prostar wheels, and caltracs. Can't think of any other areas where I would have shaved considerable weigh off. I weigh 150 so I am guessing the car with me in it is around 3600lbs.
Posted By: Defbob
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/13/13 06:46 PM
Vfn dash, vfn pro nose, vfn trunklid, glass rear bumper
Posted By: BradH
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/13/13 07:53 PM
OK, here's the dissenting opinion about to rear it's ugly (and balding) head: If all you want is low 11s (per your above statement), you don't need to build a stroker. A stronger stock-stroke 440 will get you there, plus your current 4.10 gear & 28" tire combination will be well suited to the shorter-stroke combination's RPM range on the track.
IMO, you should...
- port the E heads
- run a fairly aggressive solid flat-tappet cam
- run a good single-plane intake (not sure what you have now)
- build for about 10.5 CR to stay safe on 93-octane pump fuel
A 440 in that HP range would probably be just as happy (maybe happier) w/ 1-7/8" headers. But since I think you said you already have 2", run what you got.
You may need to change converters, but that depends on how your current one works w/ the new engine. The biggest hit on performance will be if the 10" doesn't let you 60-ft. as well as something a little looser.
FWIW, this is both opinion and fact-based from the results I've seen on my own builds.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/13/13 09:21 PM
Quote:
OK, here's the dissenting opinion about to rear it's ugly (and balding) head: If all you want is low 11s (per your above statement), you don't need to build a stroker. A stronger stock-stroke 440 will get you there, plus your current 4.10 gear & 28" tire combination will be well suited to the shorter-stroke combination's RPM range on the track.
IMO, you should...
- port the E heads
- run a fairly aggressive solid flat-tappet cam
- run a good single-plane intake (not sure what you have now)
- build for about 10.5 CR to stay safe on 93-octane pump fuel
A 440 in that HP range would probably be just as happy (maybe happier) w/ 1-7/8" headers. But since I think you said you already have 2", run what you got.
You may need to change converters, but that depends on how your current one works w/ the new engine. The biggest hit on performance will be if the 10" doesn't let you 60-ft. as well as something a little looser.
FWIW, this is both opinion and fact-based from the results I've seen on my own builds.
He seemed set of going with a stroker and the thinking now is bigger is better ...
Posted By: tex013
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/13/13 10:51 PM
either motor will do it,the stroker easier. if starting from scratch the stroker is a no brainer.personally thinking running low 11's high 10's shouldn,t be a problem .
my 440 has run 10.99 pb and will normally run around
11.1@120mph,this is at around 3720lbs(68 Satellite).
no high end gear but well sorted.
Tex
Posted By: tywebb2
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/14/13 12:16 AM
I hate to say it but the thought also crossed my mind after reading 600hp is the limit, etc. with the 440 block. Could a stroker be overkill for my application and just open up other cans of worm? I'm curious....what hp is my 8 3/4 rear good too? I have no interest in upgrading to a dana.
The major issue I have with my engine now is the TRW pistons. The valve notches are too small for the Eddy valves and I am at the limit of my valve clearance and my compression is a bit low (9.9:1) with pistons down in hole (bad quench height).
Would it make more sense just to swap out the stock rods with H-beams and get a new set of pistons....then possibly CNC porting the heads? Would I still need to zero deck the block or could I buy pistons off the shelf that would put me where I need to be out of the box? Then with my piston-to-valve clearance opened up I could go with a different cam.
I put the numbers in a hp calculator and it came back at 519hp if my weight figure is correct. How much do you think I would pick-up (hp and et) getting the proper quench height, 10.5:1 compression, better cam, cnc ported eddy heads?
Posted By: Defbob
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/14/13 12:49 AM
The block will be safe at 600hp. If you get a stroker kit, you will end up with a larger motor that will bring the rpm range of the power band down, helping the block live a longer life as a side effect. The stroker kits have lighter pistons that will help the motor rev quicker and free up a few ponies as well.
Posted By: dmking
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/14/13 12:51 AM
ty the reason i am on my last 440 build is the smallest area at the mains is .380ish and the thicker 440 i have is about .511 the bore supports are now a tad over 3" from less than 2". i have 14lb hard block and a 3/4" gurdle.
the 400 blocks mains at the thin point is over .600" and supports are 3.5"
i dodged a big one not messing anything up.
my parts list is 440 .030 over. 263/265 110Ls 630lift cam old indy heads flow about 335cfm 49cc chambers 270cc runners about 13 to 1 compression. m1 dominator intake with a 1050. 2" old proparts headers 9" with 4:30 gears 30"x10.5" hosiers caltracks with the monoleaf all in a duster @3170lb with me in it. it split the block at cecil,md just after a 132mph pass. oiled the track non the less.
if starting from scratch leave your self some room to grow with out making a bomb. check out that newer block you have and see if it is the thicker one. i am crossing my fingers on mine and it is the last one i worry about.
next one for me is a 470" 400 block stroker with 440-1 heads.
Posted By: ahy
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/14/13 01:29 AM
Quote:
I hate to say it but the thought also crossed my mind after reading 600hp is the limit, etc. with the 440 block. Could a stroker be overkill for my application and just open up other cans of worm? I'm curious....what hp is my 8 3/4 rear good too? I have no interest in upgrading to a dana.
The major issue I have with my engine now is the TRW pistons. The valve notches are too small for the Eddy valves and I am at the limit of my valve clearance and my compression is a bit low (9.9:1) with pistons down in hole (bad quench height).
Would it make more sense just to swap out the stock rods with H-beams and get a new set of pistons....then possibly CNC porting the heads? Would I still need to zero deck the block or could I buy pistons off the shelf that would put me where I need to be out of the box? Then with my piston-to-valve clearance opened up I could go with a different cam.
I put the numbers in a hp calculator and it came back at 519hp if my weight figure is correct. How much do you think I would pick-up (hp and et) getting the proper quench height, 10.5:1 compression, better cam, cnc ported eddy heads?
A big benefit of the aluminum heads is quench area. This allows higher compression and power on pump gas. To get the best quench you really need to zero deck or close. Its likely possible with stock pistons but will take some deck milling. If it hasn't been squared up already, it needs milled anyhow since factory dimensions varied a lot.
For the rear, its largely a matter weight. With 3700# and 11'ish second 1/4 I think you are living on the edge already. I run an 8 3/4 behind my 496 but that's road driven only. No strip, no slicks.
Posted By: 383man
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/14/13 01:49 AM
I still have an 8-3/4 in my 63. So far its held up but I only race about 2 times a year. If I raced alot I would be more worried about it and I would go for a Dana. If you go low 11's at your weight and only race a few times a year you may get away with it like I have so far. On my 440 block I went with main studs and as I said I dont race it alot as it has held up fine for 2 years so far. Ron
Posted By: Twostick
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/14/13 03:05 AM
Quote:
OK, here's the dissenting opinion about to rear it's ugly (and balding) head: If all you want is low 11s (per your above statement), you don't need to build a stroker. A stronger stock-stroke 440 will get you there, plus your current 4.10 gear & 28" tire combination will be well suited to the shorter-stroke combination's RPM range on the track.
IMO, you should...
- port the E heads
- run a fairly aggressive solid flat-tappet cam
- run a good single-plane intake (not sure what you have now)
- build for about 10.5 CR to stay safe on 93-octane pump fuel
A 440 in that HP range would probably be just as happy (maybe happier) w/ 1-7/8" headers. But since I think you said you already have 2", run what you got.
You may need to change converters, but that depends on how your current one works w/ the new engine. The biggest hit on performance will be if the 10" doesn't let you 60-ft. as well as something a little looser.
FWIW, this is both opinion and fact-based from the results I've seen on my own builds.
He also said mostly street driven. 500+ cubes makes it easier to keep all the compromises less compromising if you will.
Kevin
Posted By: tex013
Re: 440 Stroker Build Questions - 05/14/13 06:49 AM
my 8 3/4 called i quits for the second time in the 11.4 range
i put a strange dana in it through drdiff
Tex