HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car??

Posted By: Hemi_Joel

HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/20/13 03:29 PM

I know a few guys who have tried it, but never got it to run on the street. They did the surge tank under the hood to gravity feed the injector pump, but they say the system is like an on - off switch with no part throttle. And no accelerator pump so they had to spray gas down the stacks to start it. Not good for a street car!
I remember an article in Hot Rod many years ago where they claimed someone had it working good. Someone tried it on a hot rod at drag week in 2010, but they had problems and dropped out.

Has anyone here made it work reliably on the street?

EFI is out.

Thanks, Joel

Posted By: 1Fast340

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/20/13 03:55 PM

http://www.nitroz.se/ click on "Film" and scroll down to White lightning and you will find some video of a non mopar running it on the street back in the day,yes it works. just got to work everything out and not be sceared of doing whatever it takes.

Posted By: 23T Hemmee

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/20/13 04:24 PM

Quote:

Has anyone here made it work reliably on the street?

EFI is out.

Thanks, Joel

It kind of depends on how much aggravation you're willing to put up with. The starting problem can be fixed with a small electric primer pump tee'd into the main supply line between the mechanical pump and the barrel valve. It is absolutely essential that you have a 1-way check valve protecting the electric pump when the engine fires. I used a pushbutton starter button to activate the electric pump for a few seconds, which will push the fuel into the main line, then up through the barrel valve and into the individual nozzles, most importantly purging all of the air out of the system. Obviously not very scientific, something you'll just have to learn by trial and error. I did this in a jet boat and had the advantage of being able to hear the fuel going into the nozzles so was able to figure out pretty quickly how long to hold the primer button. The boat had twin side tanks that were well below the level of the injector pump and this system worked flawlessly for the cost of a cheap electric pump and a -6 check valve.
Unfortunatley, the lack of accellerator pump is the issue with injection on the street. To get the drivability, you have to lean the barrel valve out enough to keep from loading up and throwing black smoke out the exhaust but then you'll get stumble if you go from idle to WOT. If you fatten the valve up enough for performance, you'll probably be chugging black smoke like a deisel at idle. It is possible to find the happy medium but its a very small window and changes with the temperature. I used to carry a couple of 7/16ths with me on the boat at all times so I could adjust the barrel valve at a moments notice if needed. Thats the aggravation I mentioned in the first paragraph, I didn't mind it 30 years ago when I was younger, not sure I'd have the energy to do it now..... lol

Posted By: Slingshot383

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/20/13 05:05 PM

With E-85 your tuning window would be bigger, but the only way around the barrel valve rich/ lean idle issue would be to use something like Waterman's Injectorator that Bill Mitchells Performance used to sell.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/20/13 06:48 PM

I have seen several sets of Hilborn and Enderle stack injectors converted to EFI for street use, they flat out worked well

The new EFI systems in closed loop are just like all the new cars are, throttle position sensors,MAP sensors, wide ban reading and so on, they are the cats meow

Posted By: scatpacktom

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/20/13 06:56 PM

Why is EFI out? A friend of mine is the tech guy for Hillborn. I don't know why you would want to run that old stuff, the new stuff looks just like it. Call Andy he will straighten you out

Posted By: 6PKRTSE

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/20/13 08:04 PM

Quote:

Why is EFI out? A friend of mine is the tech guy for Hillborn. I don't know why you would want to run that old stuff, the new stuff looks just like it. Call Andy he will straighten you out

I agree, or Kinsler Fuel Injection here in Michigan can give you the ole school 8 stack look with today's EFI.

Posted By: dogdays

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/20/13 11:55 PM

I also agree, EFI is THE way to go to drive those cool stacks on the street. But be prepared to open your wallet to something like $3500, IIRC.
R.

Posted By: Big Squeeze

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/21/13 12:08 AM

Quote:

... To get the drivability, you have to lean the barrel valve out enough to keep from loading up and throwing black smoke out the exhaust but then you'll get stumble if you go from idle to WOT. If you fatten the valve up enough for performance, you'll probably be chugging black smoke like a deisel at idle. It is possible to find the happy medium but its a very small window and changes with the temperature....

A way to do that would be to have it fattened up and use the fuel pump on/off lever to lean it out while idling or cruising...I know Joel has an O2 sensor so what I'd do is mount it on the dash and when you come to a stop just push the lever forward to a "stop" that's preset so it'll idle clean...before you take off pull the lever back to the other stop that's the "all the way open setting"...at cruise put it somewhere between while watching the O2....now all the car would need is a Lenco, spool, street legal soft sidewall tires, a four link and have it run on race gas to be a REAL man's car!!! LOL....talk about a handful on the street!!! LOL

Posted By: Hemi_Joel

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/21/13 02:14 PM

Thanks for all the replies. One thing I am learning is that I have a lot to learn if I want to try this. Sounds like a real process.

Posted By: polyspheric

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/21/13 03:08 PM

drive those cool stacks on the street

For the complete experience, drop a handful of dirt down the stacks every few weeks.

Posted By: Dragula

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/21/13 03:32 PM

My set-up...Seems a lot of people commenting that don't own one...

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/21/13 03:53 PM

The big problem is it is what it is, a steady state direct injection. So idle is super fat, as described, off idle will also be very fat, leaning out to max hp rich if you use a racing barrel valve for fuel metering. The first thing I would do would be to get a properly sized barrel valve for your particular motor combo on gasoline. E85 won't be consistent enough unless you buy it by the barrel and test it for percentage of Ethanol. The next two problems to overcome are the pump shot and lean cruise. I think the simplest would be to use an electric leanout solenoid sold by some of the fuel injection companys, like Rons', set to come on at off idle, the off being at 1/4 to 1/3 throttle. To keep some of the look and save the motor, some type of aircleaner element will need to be put in each stack. Another idle bypass run electrically with a switch in the linkage to shut it the instant the throttle is moved would lean the idle enough to not kill the motor with too much idle fuel going into the crank case and dropping the fuel consumption to acceptable levels. A small, cone shaped filter (Briggs and Stratton racing? Motorcycle?)out of pleated material that could be mounted upside down in the opening or bell of each stack will keep the air clean. I believe this can all be done!

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/21/13 04:00 PM

Quote:

My set-up...Seems a lot of people commenting that don't own one...

I see wires and electrical injectors. How does that relate to the OPs post?

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/21/13 04:07 PM

Quote:

My set-up...Seems a lot of people commenting that don't own one...

I see electronic injectors in those pictures so technically you don't own one either ...

Posted By: Mopar_Rich

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/21/13 04:37 PM

Quote:

Has anyone here made it work reliably on the street?

Thanks, Joel

The simple answer is no! Too many issues, most of which are mentioned above, to get mechanical injection working stable with gas on the street. You can get it to work with Methanol because the tuning window for methanol is so wide that it can tolerate the fat idle, but not with gas. That's why street versions of stack systems are EFI.

One significant consideration that EFI takes advantage of, is to time the injection pulse to occur just as the intake valve is starting to open. This eliminates the "pop back" that can happen when untimed fuel is sitting in the runner waiting for the valve to open and cam reversion causes the pop back.

Posted By: bigtimeauto

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/21/13 04:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Has anyone here made it work reliably on the street?

Thanks, Joel

The simple answer is no! Too many issues, most of which are mentioned above, to get mechanical injection working stable with gas on the street. You can get it to work with Methanol because the tuning window for methanol is so wide that it can tolerate the fat idle, but not with gas. That's why street versions of stack systems are EFI.

One significant consideration that EFI takes advantage of, is to time the injection pulse to occur just as the intake valve is starting to open. This eliminates the "pop back" that can happen when untimed fuel is sitting in the runner waiting for the valve to open and cam reversion causes the pop back.

c'mon 20 spring loaded bypass's a few electric controlled ones a electric fuel pump with a popet.......

Just get Electronic and be done with it!

Posted By: Dragula

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/21/13 05:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

My set-up...Seems a lot of people commenting that don't own one...

I see electronic injectors in those pictures so technically you don't own one either ...

Mine is efi...Its the best way to make mfi work on the street!

Posted By: 23T Hemmee

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/21/13 05:40 PM

Drag,
You've got an awesome looking setup, but you need to get the return spring on the same arm as the throttle cable, otherwise, you're twisting the throttle shaft everytime you open it up. Won't happen today, but somewhere down the line, it will eventually break the shaft at one of the butterfly slots......don't ask me how I know.....

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/21/13 06:56 PM

One more thing that would make the setup easier to live with; a dial-a-pill system for tuning easily for big weather swings. Pop the hood, twist the knob to a leaner or fatter jet, good to go! It will take a little thought to get all this plumbed out of sight, but I am looking forward to a post on it.

Posted By: Dragula

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/21/13 07:15 PM

Quote:

Drag,
You've got an awesome looking setup, but you need to get the return spring on the same arm as the throttle cable, otherwise, you're twisting the throttle shaft everytime you open it up. Won't happen today, but somewhere down the line, it will eventually break the shaft at one of the butterfly slots......don't ask me how I know.....

Its on my wish list along with a better cable than a lokar, and to have it be allowed as legal in the Gasser Racing Series I race in...

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/21/13 07:20 PM

When I see a street car with a Bugcatcher, Birdcatcher or Buzzard injector hat I really cringe and feel sorry for the driver of that car

The first blown street hemi motor I assembled for a customer had one of those (Bird or Bugcatsher on it with EFI, I don't remember which size one now:o , 3300 CFM at WOT

) and it was a real bear and painful to drive at slow speeds on the street

OP, if you do decide to buy a set of stack injectors and there is a choice on the butterfly sizes, smaller maybe easier to drive on the street

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/21/13 07:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

My set-up...Seems a lot of people commenting that don't own one...

I see electronic injectors in those pictures so technically you don't own one either ...

Mine is efi...Its the best way to make mfi work on the street!

I agree with you , I was just pointing out the irony of your reply ...

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/21/13 07:46 PM

One of the big injection companys has a diagram of linkages (Kinsler?)that produce extremely slow opening of the butterflys at off idle, and speed up to go one to one at WOT. That ought to solve that problem.

Posted By: Dragula

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/22/13 12:05 PM

Quote:

When I see a street car with a Bugcatcher, Birdcatcher or Buzzard injector hat I really cringe and feel sorry for the driver of that car The first blown street hemi motor I assembled for a customer had one of those (Bird or Bugcatsher on it with EFI, I don't remember which size one now:o , 3300 CFM at WOT ) and it was a real bear and painful to drive at slow speeds on the street OP, if you do decide to buy a set of stack injectors and there is a choice on the butterfly sizes, smaller maybe easier to drive on the street

Here is a vehicle startup and idle on a cold wintery day as we pulled our trailers into the convention center for a March indoor car show here in buffalo. I pushed the car out the trailer and hit the key...Ice cold! Most of the high end cars wouldn't even fire up...My trailer took two days to dig it out where I had it parked just prior to that show. The cam is a nice mild .+750" lift nasty with over 270� duration at 50...

Posted By: Bad340fish

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/22/13 01:38 PM

What kind of ET did it put down with that combo?

Posted By: Dragula

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/22/13 02:28 PM

Quote:

What kind of ET did it put down with that combo?

I will have to get back to you on that...It was in the high 10's in testing, but it was killing valve train parts like they were candy with that cam. It should have been running low 10's high 9's, but coulda shoulda woulda.

Since then I have detuned the cam, ported the heads a little more, put all new valve train in and currently running a Prosystems carb to be legal. Its already back in the 10.90's and should be in the 10.70's when we get it back out next month.

If they allow Nostalgic looking efi into the GRS, then it will go back on with an XFI self learning computer instead of the current FAST batch fire computer....Either way, its a lot easier on parts, very drivable and still pretty fast for pump gas.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: HIlborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car?? - 03/22/13 03:08 PM

Quote:

My set-up...

Now that looks cool.
Is it running alcohol or gasoline? OK, now I see your last post, gasoline. Much easier to start in cold weather than alcohol. My drag car has a gasoline primer system to make starting easier, then push the alcohol fuel shut off lever to ON for racing.