SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? *UPDATE*

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/13/13 11:10 PM

That may be alright with an aftermarket steel or billet cap but I didn't want to put a hole all the way through a stock cast cap, even if it was small.

No I wouldnt do that on stock caps

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/13/13 11:17 PM

Quote:

That may be alright with an aftermarket steel or billet cap but I didn't want to put a hole all the way through a stock cast cap, even if it was small.

No I wouldnt do that on stock caps

So now we're back to the original question, are aftermarket caps worth the money and effort? Will it buy me more time, help some, or other wise am I better off just leaving it and crossing my fingers until I can get a better block?

Posted By: MattW

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/13/13 11:23 PM

Why put the money and effort if your going an R3?
Run it stock and hope for the best. It would be a shame to put caps on along with the machining expense if something were to go boom.

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/13/13 11:27 PM

Not sure about the small block stuff but I`ve been beatin on the stock caps in my 470 w/ARP studs for 13+ years and Jason Pettis said he`s seen way worse cap walk on other motors and these studs even spent years in my 360..........

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/13/13 11:30 PM

Quote:

So now we're back to the original question, are aftermarket caps worth the money and effort? Will it buy me more time, help some, or other wise am I better off just leaving it and crossing my fingers until I can get a better block?

Why put the money and effort if your going an R3?
Run it stock and hope for the best. It would be a shame to put caps on along with the machining expense if something were to go boom.

Because except for the line bore I can do it all myself. I have no idea how long I'll need to use this block because the economy isn't getting better and there is a change in ownership here at the dealership waiting in the wings. In the meantime it looks like a ghost town here. Just trying to get by the best I can for now.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 12:06 AM

I've never had cap walk on any of my small blocks

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 01:03 AM

After seeing a stock 360 block at Bob Georges that had the extra two bolts added I wouldn't even do it if someone offered to do it for free. It still gives me a good laugh.

Posted By: turboplymouth

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 01:07 AM

Little off topic, but why aren't aluminum caps utilized on the sb like many use on the bb's?

Posted By: moparman89

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 01:24 AM

Quote:

Little off topic, but why aren't aluminum caps utilized on the sb like many use on the bb's?

Because the cylinders fall out before the caps walk/distort.

Posted By: BPE

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 01:34 AM

Take this for what it is, but I would not put 4 bolt caps on a stock block. I just don't think it's worth the time or money spent for actual strength gain. However, I would put billet 2 bolt caps (2 through 4) on a stock block if I thought it was needed for the application. How was your last block done?

Rod

Posted By: Crizila

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 02:12 AM

Quote:

Trying to figure things out on my new LA SB, are aftermarket main caps woth it or should I just stick with the stock caps. We've all heard the 4 bolt caps weaken the block but does anyone have any actual experience with this? Any help is appreciated.

Got about 16 runs on mine so far with no problems (probably in the 650HP range). Block is filled though.

Attached picture 7625061-4bltmains.jpg

Posted By: J_BODY

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 04:28 AM

I've got a set of two bolt caps that BCR did many moons ago. They aren't pretty, but our main bearing looked really good in our 340 stroker everytime we tore it down.

Posted By: J_BODY

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 08:00 AM

These were from the original company. The holes were crooked in a couple caps and we had to ream and elongate a couple holes for proper fitment. Pain in the butt, but other than that they seemed pretty stout.

Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 10:15 AM

Mike makes a set of 2 bolt caps FYI.

Link here

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 01:07 PM

Quote:

Mike makes a set of 2 bolt caps FYI.

Link here

They look nice, thanks for the info.

Posted By: 1967dartgt

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 02:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Mike makes a set of 2 bolt caps FYI.

Link here

They look nice, thanks for the info.

I think that is your answer for a stock block.Looks good with the gridle.

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 02:50 PM

Quote:

After seeing a stock 360 block at Bob Georges that had the extra two bolts added I wouldn't even do it if someone offered to do it for free. It still gives me a good laugh.

That's the point,it's wortlhless on a stock webbed block.There is no material to hold the bolts and sometime adding the 3/8 outer bolt can crack the block webbing.I used the four bolt caps on another block with out using the bolts and that engine ran 9.50s with no issues.

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 03:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Mike makes a set of 2 bolt caps FYI.

Link here

They look nice, thanks for the info.

I think that is your answer for a stock block.Looks good with the gridle.

If that would make the block safe to 700hp that should be good for quite awhile then. I'm thinking this engine should make at least 650 and maybe 675 but I'm not going to turn it over 7500 and more likely only about 7000.

Thanks to all for the info and suggestions.

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 03:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

After seeing a stock 360 block at Bob Georges that had the extra two bolts added I wouldn't even do it if someone offered to do it for free. It still gives me a good laugh.

That's the point,it's wortlhless on a stock webbed block.There is no material to hold the bolts and sometime adding the 3/8 outer bolt can crack the block webbing.I used the four bolt caps on another block with out using the bolts and that engine ran 9.50s with no issues.

Same issue trying to do it to a stock 440 block. Just not enough meat there to do any good.

Posted By: J_BODY

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 03:10 PM

Posted By: Crizila

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 04:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

After seeing a stock 360 block at Bob Georges that had the extra two bolts added I wouldn't even do it if someone offered to do it for free. It still gives me a good laugh.

That's the point,it's wortlhless on a stock webbed block.There is no material to hold the bolts and sometime adding the 3/8 outer bolt can crack the block webbing.I used the four bolt caps on another block with out using the bolts and that engine ran 9.50s with no issues.

Same issue trying to do it to a stock 440 block. Just not enough meat there to do any good.

I went along with my machinists opinion, which was opposite the above - over 600HP on a stock block he suggested it along with a filled block, forged rotating assembly. He was not a fan of girdles for sm blks based on what was available. As I said, I only have about 16 runs on it so the verdict is still out IMO. Screamed it up to 7700 once and 7500 several times. Have since switched to different gears as I was running out of motor too soon - obviously

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 05:59 PM

So I messaged Mike at MRL about those main caps and this was his response.

Quote:

We no longer make them. The company I was working with has since gone under and I can not find anyone who will make them for a reasonable price, as of yet. Sorry.

BTW, they have been field tested to 700hp in a stock 360 block, and its still going strong to this day. That was back in 2009.

So that idea is out the window.

Posted By: Jerry

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 06:14 PM

not necessarily. we can turn out a few sets reasonably. let me know what you need, what material, 2 bolt probably.

Jerry

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/14/13 07:38 PM

Quote:

not necessarily. we can turn out a few sets reasonably. let me know what you need, what material, 2 bolt probably.

Jerry

Thanks Jerry, I sent you a PM, you may even want to talk to Mike at MRL.

Posted By: emarine01

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 12:00 AM

Quote:

Take this for what it is, but I would not put 4 bolt caps on a stock block. I just don't think it's worth the time or money spent for actual strength gain. However, I would put billet 2 bolt caps (2 through 4) on a stock block if I thought it was needed for the application. How was your last block done?

Rod

2 bolt program caps on apr studs... well over 600 passes to 7500 and mains look new...all the oil mods and bushed lifters

Posted By: J_BODY

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 01:11 AM

....and as I've pointed out in previous posts on this subject. Jerry's "BCR" product and my originals are two different pieces all together. Personally I think the two bolt cap is what you're after.

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 01:58 AM

I've been talking with Jerry about it so I guess we'll see what happens.

On another note is Pro-Gram Engineering still in business? The website is useless and emails are returned as undeliverable.

Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 02:02 AM

Yes - It's best to call them

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 02:39 AM

Ok, thanks.

I've been talking with Jerry at SD Concepts about making a modified BCR cap that is flat all the way across the cap to use with a Hughes girdle to provide a full contact across the width of the cap without shims. Similiar to the caps MRL was making. Anyone else interested in a set?

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 02:15 PM

OK, Jerry just gave me pricing for the caps, $450 a set. If he can run at least 5 sets the price drops to $350 per set. 360 or 340 main size. Anyone else want a set?

Posted By: mopar dave

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 02:38 PM

i'd be interested at 350 a set. i'm expecting 650-700hp after my next rebuild on my 71 360. my block is much like yours with block fill. would the 350 be just for the caps or are you getting the girdle also?

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 02:42 PM

Quote:

i'd be interested at 350 a set. i'm expecting 650-700hp after my next rebuild on my 71 360. my block is much like yours with block fill. would the 350 be just for the caps or are you getting the girdle also?

Just the caps, mains 1 through 4. The girdle is $279 from Hughes.

Posted By: mopar dave

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 02:52 PM

ok. do the girdles really hold everything in place? some believe with a girdle,if one main moves the rest will move with it because their all tied together. I have a machinest in Detroit that think their the best,if ya know what I meen. they don't believe in girdles,say girdles are for little old ladies. i'm using studs right now and thinking i'll just add the aluminum caps without girdle,unless someone can convince me girdles work on small blocks.

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 03:01 PM

Quote:

ok. do the girdles really hold everything in place? some believe with a girdle,if one main moves the rest will move with it because their all tied together. I have a machinest in Detroit that think their the best,if ya know what I meen. they don't believe in girdles,say girdles are for little old ladies. i'm using studs right now and thinking i'll just add the aluminum caps without girdle,unless someone can convince me girdles work on small blocks.

Dave, MRL has had an engine making 700 HP running since 2009 with a similiar cap and girdle setup. He says it's still going strong. The 4140 material is steel not aluminum. I would believe that with the girdle, since they are all tied together the others would help stop movement of the main and not cause the others to move with it.

Posted By: mopar dave

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 03:03 PM

don't get me wrong here. not sayin they don't work. just sayin I have a guy that builds hundreds of performance motors telling me girdles don't work in small blocks. does anyone have proof that they do work? i'd like to be convinced they do help.

Posted By: J_BODY

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 03:08 PM

My thought is that if the "girdle" was that good, we would have seen it incorporated into race blocks long ago. Invest your money elsewhere is what I've heard from a couple builders.

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 03:08 PM

Quote:

don't get me wrong here. not sayin they don't work. just sayin I have a guy that builds hundreds of performance motors telling me girdles don't work in small blocks. does anyone have proof that they do work? i'd like to be convinced they do help.

Unless you built an engine without a girdle and had cap walk then built it again with a girdle and it didn't how could you prove they did or didn't work? I certainly don't believe they would hurt but as proof? I don't know. You could use these caps with or without a girdle though.

Posted By: mopar dave

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 03:09 PM

yeah i'v talked to mike about those before. he lives close to me. maybe its the design of the girdle that determines if it does its job or not. I know the one mike had was thick,looked very strong.

Posted By: mopar dave

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 03:15 PM

its been 5 years since i'v talked with the Detroit shop about the girdle. maybe they changed their mind since then. you could give them a call and get their opinion now.
best machine (248) 987-6038. ask for chuck

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 03:26 PM

I LOVE it when someone says they have had one in an engine since 2009. A good Friend of mine has the same 454 big block, alcohol injected Chevy in his dragster since 1995. It never leaves the garage but its the same engine.

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 03:43 PM

Quote:

I LOVE it when someone says they have had one in an engine since 2009. A good Friend of mine has the same 454 big block, alcohol injected Chevy in his dragster since 1995. It never leaves the garage but its the same engine.

Who knows? I'm just looking to see if anyone else would be interested in a set. I'm not reselling them, this is the price straight from SD Concepts whom you would order from. I'm going to do it anyway whether or not anyone else is interested. This engine came with a girdle on it already so it won't cost me anymore money.

Posted By: mopar dave

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 04:09 PM

i'm interested for $350.

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 04:29 PM

Quote:

i'm interested for $350.

OK, I have a total of 3 guys so far.

Posted By: jp15

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 04:47 PM

Have ran a Hughes girdle on my 408 stroked 360ci for past 4 years, stock caps. I think it along with a 3/4 block fill has kept this 360 from gernading. shifted it @ 7,200 and crossed @ 8,000 ,around 700 H.P.( 8.85 @ 150 mph,N.A - 2,600 lbs)
Jim,

Posted By: dogdays

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 04:52 PM

My SHO motors, designed by Yamaha, have the main caps tied together by a girdle. Yamaha makes some pretty good engines, I'd say that is one vote in favor. The girdle is a casting.

R.

Posted By: mopar dave

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 05:54 PM

sounds good 700hp and 8000rpm. the [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] build a good motor. just sold a 08 gsxr 750,ran flawlessly. very impressed with their motors. redlined at 14,500rpm.
best rated my 408 at 680hp@7500 with just studs and stock caps and block fill as the max on block.
aluminum main caps will be alittle insurance.

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 06:11 PM

Quote:

sounds good 700hp and 8000rpm. the [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] build a good motor. just sold a 08 gsxr 750,ran flawlessly. very impressed with their motors. redlined at 14,500rpm.
best rated my 408 at [Email]680hp@7500[/Email] with just studs and stock caps and block fill as the max on block.
aluminum main caps will be alittle insurance.

Dave, these main caps will be 4140 steel, not aluminum. They should have the same thermal expansion rate as the block.

Posted By: Jerry

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 06:26 PM

I can make steel or aluminum. everyone can order direct and if you have 3 people already i'll suck it up and make the other two sets to put on the shelf. I would like everyones contact info and credit card info so as soon as they are ready we can ship. we don't bill anything until the parts are ready to go to ups.

also i don't believe the girdles help on the small block unless you can find away to integrate it into the pan rail. which as far as i know no one has done yet. I thought about doing it, but in reality not that many people have seen cap walk on a small block and the cost of tooling up for a limited market would be prohibitive. i haven't given up on the idea, but if there is some interest we can give it a go.

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 06:41 PM

Excellent, thank you Jerry. I'll give you a call.

Posted By: mopar dave

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 06:48 PM

Ill give ya a call about 4 today. Are you in troy on elliot?

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 07:21 PM

I'm all in guys. Jerry said it would only take about 2 weeks for these to ship.

Posted By: Jerry

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 07:22 PM

yes we are in troy Mi on elliott Drive. if your in the area we would be more than happy to show you around our shop and what we have cooking for the mopar crowd.

big block cap and girdle kits
mopar serpentine belt drive kits )small and big block)
EFi conversions
megasquirt harness kits for mopars
and a few more things i don't want to let out of the bag just yet.

please call first to make sure i'm available when you want to come by.

Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 08:15 PM

While I dont need a set - Thanks Jerry for stepping up to the plate and getting something done on this.

Good Job!

Posted By: L4staero

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 08:22 PM

Jerry im happy to put my hand up for a set if your happy to ship to australia for me.

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 08:35 PM

Quote:

Jerry im happy to put my hand up for a set if your happy to ship to australia for me.

There ya go. USPS ships all over the world and I've found them better for overseas shipping than UPS.

Posted By: Jerry

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 08:36 PM

We ship to australia all the time. as long as your willing to pay the shipping i'm happy to get them down there for you.

Posted By: L4staero

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/15/13 09:02 PM

Yep no problems jerry. Count me in then. If you can send me a pm when its all a go and i will call through my credit card number. Cheers

Posted By: J_BODY

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/16/13 12:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Jerry im happy to put my hand up for a set if your happy to ship to australia for me.

There ya go. USPS ships all over the world and I've found them better for overseas shipping than UPS.

...and on a different note, I take it you decided to keep the W5's in the family.

...and on the integrated girdle I'm betting a fairly heavy cast aluminum pan with the girdle built in is what you are possibly thinking of, but where do you draw the $$ line.

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/16/13 12:09 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Jerry im happy to put my hand up for a set if your happy to ship to australia for me.

There ya go. USPS ships all over the world and I've found them better for overseas shipping than UPS.

...and on a different note, I take it you decided to keep the W5's in the family.

...and on the integrated girdle I'm betting a fairly heavy cast aluminum pan with the girdle built in is what you are possibly thinking of, but where do you draw the $$ line.

Yes the W5's are going on this engine. It might not be ideal but I can get my big cam in there and still keep the compression around 12.5.

Jerry would like to do a small block girdle that ties into the pan rail but there doesn't seem to be much of a market for that. Once you start spending so much money on a stock block you might as well just pop for the R or Ritter block.

Posted By: Racebuddy

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/16/13 01:22 AM

I am having Milodon caps put on my 340 stroker @ Dargie Racing Engines right now.

This is the first time I have ever done that to a block. Hope it does me good.

Chaka Khan
Its playin on the 80's station @ high voloume, Chaka Khan

Posted By: Jerry

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/25/13 07:23 PM

Just wanted to follow up with everyone. we had a really go response to the first order of the small block main caps. we are currently finishing the programming and these will be going on the cnc on wednesday. prototypes will be done on friday and the first productions units will start no later than monday. most of the customers want 4140 steel. some are going for aluminum. i will post some pics as soon as i get the first ones off the machine.

Jerry

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/25/13 07:28 PM

Quote:

Just wanted to follow up with everyone. we had a really go response to the first order of the small block main caps. we are currently finishing the programming and these will be going on the cnc on wednesday. prototypes will be done on friday and the first productions units will start no later than monday. most of the customers want 4140 steel. some are going for aluminum. i will post some pics as soon as i get the first ones off the machine.

Jerry

Thanks for the update Jerry! I just dropped my heads off at Mike Ford's racing engines to have them cut and talked to him about line boring and honing the block. I'm getting excited now...

Posted By: BPE

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/09/14 06:29 PM

Did these caps ever get made?

Rod

Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/09/14 06:40 PM

Quote:

I have 1 340 stock block with big 4 bolt steel main
caps.. the outer bolts are 3/8 but I still feel it
helps spread the load... but at a point its not the
main caps that are the weak point... I've had more
blocks crack a cyl wall than hurt stock caps

Exactly...your more likely to break the block than the cap!

Posted By: J_BODY

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/09/14 07:16 PM

Quote:

Did these caps ever get made?

Rod

want a set to play with?

Posted By: BPE

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/09/14 07:42 PM

Are the ones you have for a 340? I am looking at a stock block but some of the caps are missing. Are these for sale and are they aluminum? Just considering my options.

Rod

Posted By: J_BODY

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/09/14 09:32 PM

yes 340. sent you a pm with the good, bad, ugly.... well nothing too ugly, but always liked that reference.

Posted By: J_BODY

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/09/14 09:35 PM

...once upon a time.

Posted By: Jerry

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/09/14 09:57 PM

yes the caps got made, I'm running another set of 340 caps this week in 4140 steel. so if anyone else wants small block caps now is the time to get them going. I still have a few sets of 4140 360 caps available as well. there maybe a set of aluminum 360 caps here to I have to check.

Posted By: BPE

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/09/14 10:29 PM

Thanks for the reply Jerry.

Rod

Posted By: dOoC

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/09/14 10:50 PM

Quote:

Yeah, I know I'm flirtin' with a grenede,

GEEtar .... so you are BACK with the old GF ? .... or is this anutter moder issue ?? .... HECK ... it is fixed, then it is broken THEN fixed again ...

Wasssupy ?

Posted By: slammedR/T

Re: SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? - 03/12/14 07:03 AM

stock 360 magnum block with half fill, stock main caps, hughes main stud girdle since 2005. No issues but didn't start making over 500whp with it till 2010. many 200 shot bottle pass' just went 9.262 @ 145 letting off the nitrous at 3200lbs. race weight guesstimate of 800whp and turning 8000 rpm. Could reuse the main bearings a THIRD time. Last time I reused them from 2012 when I put my Indy 360-1 cnc heads on the motor.

SB aftermarket main caps, waste of money? *UPDATE*