4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI

Posted By: domingo

4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/06/13 09:31 PM

Hi!

I am going thru a set of used carbs that I bought for my 528 HEMI equipped with a Stage V Rat Buster Dual Inline Intake Manifold.

I dissassembled the Vacuum Secondaries Diaphragms and turns out Im missing the check ball:

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/howto/155_0506w_holley_4160_short_bowl_conversion/photo_08.html

Do you think it will be a problem? All my Holley books and the Mopar Muscle article say you should not take it out or it will make the engine bog.

Where can I find these if I want to replace them????

Thanks!

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/06/13 09:47 PM

You should be able to find them at a hardware store or industrial supply house local to you , it's just a ball bearing .

Posted By: domingo

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/06/13 09:53 PM

I hope I find the right size one......

I think I know where to go look for em locally.....

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/06/13 09:55 PM

Can you measure the spot it drops in with a drill bit ? Or maybe someone can measure one for you .

I have a 4160 at home in pieces , if I can remember I'll measure the ball for you and post if no one comes thru.

Posted By: domingo

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/06/13 10:00 PM

I guess all it has to do is drop in the hole, snug but without getting trapped....right????

Or i bet its the same as the 6 pack carbs diaphragms???? If so I have some used 6 pack carbs laying aroung I can probably take those check ball off from....

Posted By: lewtot184

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/06/13 10:21 PM

don't put those balls in there, unless you have a death wish.

Posted By: domingo

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/06/13 11:01 PM

Quote:

don't put those balls in there, unless you have a death wish.

please elaborate....

Posted By: lewtot184

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/06/13 11:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

don't put those balls in there, unless you have a death wish.

please elaborate....

the check balls will delay the closing of carbs at WOT, at best, and may completely prevent the throttle from closing at WOT. don't believe me?, then try it. been there done that, and survived. if they were designed to delay opening wouldn't they delay closing?

Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/07/13 12:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

don't put those balls in there, unless you have a death wish.

please elaborate....

the check balls will delay the closing of carbs at WOT, at best, and may completely prevent the throttle from closing at WOT. don't believe me?, then try it. been there done that, and survived. if they were designed to delay opening wouldn't they delay closing?

i never had that happen when running the balls. yes, they are to "control" the opening of the secondaries, but they have nothing to do with throttle closure. if you're saying they'll trap the vacuum above the diaphragm, no. there is a small channel to bleed that off on trailing throttle. if your throttle stuck, it was for a different reason, i think.

Posted By: 383man

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/07/13 04:27 PM

The main reason they use a check ball is to have the right size to open them and when you let off the throttle the check ball lifts and makes the opening larger so they close fast enough. If they just had the hole the size for opening the secondaries without the check ball they would not close fast enough. If you leave the check ball out you will have a larger port which should open them real fast and close like they should. As far as I have heard the check ball is there to lift off the gas and make the port larger so they close fast enough. Its gives the right size to open them and then gives the larger size when closing to bleed off the vacum fast enough. Ron

Posted By: domingo

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/07/13 04:32 PM

So??? I should put them back in I guess.....

Domingo

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/07/13 04:49 PM

The balls are usually removed in many race applications since with large cams and high compression piston there is minimual vacume to control the diaphram.The spring is then used for primary control(holding the plates closed) the signal from the manifold and cylinders draw them open.The stronger and quicker the signal the sooner the plates open.With a race engine at high idle or launch rpm or transbrake,two-step luanch or other means of leave negates any effect that vacume has.Just like any sring control on a AVS,Thermoquad controls the flapper wich are under tension the pod spring under compression has the same effect.Vacume tends to only effect mild engines that are footbraked at low rpm and when the engine adverages or exceeds 15inchs at lowrpm.
As far as plates sticking open,this will not happen unless the spring is removed or cut short as to not push the diaphram.Usually when the throttle is released the secondary relaxes to the closed position.To test the diaphram and spring open the throttle by hand and open the secondary,release the secondary and it should retract with the spring.

Posted By: domingo

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/07/13 05:02 PM

Yes, they return no problem with just the spring action in the vacuum diaphragm.

This car will use a trans brake too. No footbrake (maybe on accassion).

Cam is not wild, but not stock either:

Intake- 248@.050 & .604lift
>Exhaust- 254@.050 & .591lift
>Lobe sep is 114
>lobe #`s: 4875B/4876B sn#-A6105

Compression is 10.5:1

Posted By: domingo

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/07/13 05:06 PM

besides, the secondarys will be closed by the primaries via the over ride linkage on the throttle lever when you lift off the throttle.....So I dont think the ball has nothing to do with the secondarys closing too slow.

Posted By: domingo

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/07/13 05:17 PM

What Im thinking is that YES without the check ball the secondaries will open faster because the vaccum signal from the venturi will be pulling air from inside the diaphragm thru a larger hole, rather than from the tiny air bleed groove at the seat of the check ball. They will close just as fast with or without the check ball cause when the vacuum sinal weakens it will just blow the ball off the seat.....

Now the only thing I think it might happen is that you might have a BOG from the secondaries opening too fast????? Maybe on a stock engine, but on a high horsepower, BIG CUBES, high intake charge demand engine it wont be a problem????

I mean, I dont think that even without the check ball the vacuum secondaries cant open as fast as a carb with mechanical secondaries.....

Posted By: domingo

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/07/13 05:22 PM

Also, I think that the bleed port for the vacuum secondaries is above the throttle plates near the venturis, so its unafected by idle vacuum or pulsating vacuum like on race cammed engines......they only work when the vacuum singal is strong when throttles are open and engibe is revving.....

So the balls are there just to restrict excessive singal to the diaphragm to prevent a BOG due to the secondaries opening too fast (on a mild engine), and to open up the bleed passage to aid in faster closing of the secondaries when singal at the venturi drops to atmospheric.....

I guess Im cool leaving those out as long as my HEMI doesnt bog when those things open fast!

Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/07/13 05:24 PM

Yep, one possible consequence of removing the balls is a bog when the secondaries open too quickly. Easy enough to rectify.

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/07/13 05:27 PM

Quote:

Also, I think that the bleed port for the vacuum secondaries is above the throttle plates near the venturis, so its unafected by idle vacuum or pulsating vacuum like on race cammed engines......they only work when the vacuum singal is strong when throttles are open and engibe is revving.....

So the balls are there just to restrict excessive singal to the diaphragm to prevent a BOG due to the secondaries opening too fast (on a mild engine), and to open up the bleed passage to aid in faster closing of the secondaries when singal at the venturi drops to atmospheric.....

I guess Im cool leaving those out as long as my HEMI doesnt bog when those things open fast!

I think you just answered all your own questions.You even figured out the linkage bar.It can be adjusted to even help facitilate opening the secondarys.

Posted By: domingo

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/07/13 05:29 PM

Quote:

The main reason they use a check ball is to have the right size to open them and when you let off the throttle the check ball lifts and makes the opening larger so they close fast enough. If they just had the hole the size for opening the secondaries without the check ball they would not close fast enough. If you leave the check ball out you will have a larger port which should open them real fast and close like they should. As far as I have heard the check ball is there to lift off the gas and make the port larger so they close fast enough. Its gives the right size to open them and then gives the larger size when closing to bleed off the vacum fast enough. Ron

That is right!

Now the question is: do you think my engine will bog from too fast opening rate???

528 HEMI
10,5:1 compression
solid roller cam
Intake- 248@.050 & .604lift
>Exhaust- 254@.050 & .591lift
>Lobe sep is 114
>lobe #`s: 4875B/4876B sn#-A6105
CNC ported heads flowing over 430 cfm intake 250 cfm exh
2,25" headers
stage V duial inline intake with dual 4160 750 holleys

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/07/13 05:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The main reason they use a check ball is to have the right size to open them and when you let off the throttle the check ball lifts and makes the opening larger so they close fast enough. If they just had the hole the size for opening the secondaries without the check ball they would not close fast enough. If you leave the check ball out you will have a larger port which should open them real fast and close like they should. As far as I have heard the check ball is there to lift off the gas and make the port larger so they close fast enough. Its gives the right size to open them and then gives the larger size when closing to bleed off the vacum fast enough. Ron

That is right!

Now the question is: do you think my engine will bog from too fast opening rate???

528 HEMI
10,5:1 compression
solid roller cam
Intake- [Email]248@.050[/Email] & .604lift
>Exhaust- [Email]254@.050[/Email] & .591lift
>Lobe sep is 114
>lobe #`s: 4875B/4876B sn#-A6105
CNC ported heads flowing over 430 cfm intake 250 cfm exh
2,25" headers
stage V duial inline intake with dual 4160 750 holleys

Only way to find out is the run it , if it bogs change the springs .

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/07/13 05:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The main reason they use a check ball is to have the right size to open them and when you let off the throttle the check ball lifts and makes the opening larger so they close fast enough. If they just had the hole the size for opening the secondaries without the check ball they would not close fast enough. If you leave the check ball out you will have a larger port which should open them real fast and close like they should. As far as I have heard the check ball is there to lift off the gas and make the port larger so they close fast enough. Its gives the right size to open them and then gives the larger size when closing to bleed off the vacum fast enough. Ron

That is right!

Now the question is: do you think my engine will bog from too fast opening rate???

528 HEMI
10,5:1 compression
solid roller cam
Intake- [Email]248@.050[/Email] & .604lift
>Exhaust- [Email]254@.050[/Email] & .591lift
>Lobe sep is 114
>lobe #`s: 4875B/4876B sn#-A6105
CNC ported heads flowing over 430 cfm intake 250 cfm exh
2,25" headers
stage V duial inline intake with dual 4160 750 holleys

Only way to find out is the run it , if it bogs change the springs .

Start with a lite spring and give it a whirl.Too lite or two heavy will both cause it to bog.Find that sweet spot.Good tech question and good info.

Posted By: domingo

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/07/13 05:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The main reason they use a check ball is to have the right size to open them and when you let off the throttle the check ball lifts and makes the opening larger so they close fast enough. If they just had the hole the size for opening the secondaries without the check ball they would not close fast enough. If you leave the check ball out you will have a larger port which should open them real fast and close like they should. As far as I have heard the check ball is there to lift off the gas and make the port larger so they close fast enough. Its gives the right size to open them and then gives the larger size when closing to bleed off the vacum fast enough. Ron

That is right!

Now the question is: do you think my engine will bog from too fast opening rate???

528 HEMI
10,5:1 compression
solid roller cam
Intake- [Email]248@.050[/Email] & .604lift
>Exhaust- [Email]254@.050[/Email] & .591lift
>Lobe sep is 114
>lobe #`s: 4875B/4876B sn#-A6105
CNC ported heads flowing over 430 cfm intake 250 cfm exh
2,25" headers
stage V duial inline intake with dual 4160 750 holleys

Only way to find out is the run it , if it bogs change the springs .

yepper....will do that.

Mopar Muscle article has the check balls withj the yellow spring.

Ill try the red spring without the balls and go from there....

Posted By: 540DUSTER

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/07/13 08:13 PM

Back in the old school days,we used to block off the kill bleed leading to the secondaries and increase the hole to the pri.To get rid of the bog we used big pump shot like .050" with 50cc pump diapham.Could get a vac. 750 carb to run within 5/100ths of a double pumper.We kept the ball in the mix.In the first direct connection books they outlined how to do this to vac. carbs.

Posted By: 383man

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/08/13 01:41 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The main reason they use a check ball is to have the right size to open them and when you let off the throttle the check ball lifts and makes the opening larger so they close fast enough. If they just had the hole the size for opening the secondaries without the check ball they would not close fast enough. If you leave the check ball out you will have a larger port which should open them real fast and close like they should. As far as I have heard the check ball is there to lift off the gas and make the port larger so they close fast enough. Its gives the right size to open them and then gives the larger size when closing to bleed off the vacum fast enough. Ron

That is right!

Now the question is: do you think my engine will bog from too fast opening rate???

528 HEMI
10,5:1 compression
solid roller cam
Intake- [Email]248@.050[/Email] & .604lift
>Exhaust- [Email]254@.050[/Email] & .591lift
>Lobe sep is 114
>lobe #`s: 4875B/4876B sn#-A6105
CNC ported heads flowing over 430 cfm intake 250 cfm exh
2,25" headers
stage V duial inline intake with dual 4160 750 holleys

Only way to find out is the run it , if it bogs change the springs .

yepper....will do that.

Mopar Muscle article has the check balls withj the yellow spring.

Ill try the red spring without the balls and go from there....

You wont have any balls !!!!

All kidding aside I agree you will have to try it and see how it works. Good luck , Ron

Posted By: domingo

Re: 4160 Holleys missing check ball on the Vac Secs: HEMI - 02/08/13 02:34 AM

LOL!!