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1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ?

Posted By: sublimehemi

1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 01/30/13 08:10 PM

i have read that some of the guys here have ordered 1/2 stainless fuel line from fine lines that was pre bent...how did it fit?????

i am also considering ordering the return line in 3/8...i konw our cars came with 3/8 fuel with 1/4 return and i am wondering if 1/2 fuel and 3/8 return will fit with minor tweaking in factory location ???

i really want this set up to work for my 700hp efi project...any thoughts will help.i posted this under question and answer and got no response so any info will help...
Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 01/30/13 08:58 PM

Just my opinion but I'd try and package both supply and return lines as the same size.

I was considering your route with my FAST Efi but was notified that it could potentially cause a pressure situation, especially at idle with a smaller return.

I went with 3/8 supply and return and have never had an issue.

Might I also suggest a rock valley tank? It has a baffle and setup for a tank mounted pump. Best move I made.

Posted By: sublimehemi

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 01/31/13 05:32 AM

will 3/8 main and return line support 700hp efi??if i can get away with running 3/8..... i will....im sure 3/8 main and return lines will most likely fit in factory location...

how much horsepower will 3/8 main and return handle on a efi application???
Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 01/31/13 05:57 AM

Quote:

will 3/8 main and return line support 700hp efi??if i can get away with running 3/8..... i will....im sure 3/8 main and return lines will most likely fit in factory location...

how much horsepower will 3/8 main and return handle on a efi application???



I'd say you are good to 700+ HP with 3/8" lines on a EFI return style system.

But I'd like to hear if someone has used the 1/2" finelines steel lines too. I asked Right Stuff if they could make them and they told me they could not....
Posted By: sublimehemi

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 01/31/13 07:07 AM

i called fine lines yesterday and talked to rick and he said they can do stainless in 1/2 but not steel....he does not sock 1/2 steel...anyways he said he makes them exact...and sells them alot.

i too am interested in pics..
Posted By: 540challenger

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 01/31/13 02:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

will 3/8 main and return line support 700hp efi??if i can get away with running 3/8..... i will....im sure 3/8 main and return lines will most likely fit in factory location...

how much horsepower will 3/8 main and return handle on a efi application???



I'd say you are good to 700+ HP with 3/8" lines on a EFI return style system.

But I'd like to hear if someone has used the 1/2" finelines steel lines too. I asked Right Stuff if they could make them and they told me they could not....



I used 1/2 SS from inline tube fit great however get ready for a fight to straighten it out.
Posted By: jbc426

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 01/31/13 05:21 PM

I'm upgrading the fuel system in my '68 Barracuda to run EFI. The stainless lines are hard to manipulate when installing them or when just straightening them out after shipment. It can be done, but it is a job especially under the car.

I'm using a surge tank system with stock fuel tank, 3/8" pick-up and return lines on the sending unit, to a 2 micron fuel water separator canister filter, to a a low pressure electric pump through 3/8" aluminum supply and return lines plumbed to a surge tank at the front of the car. The high pressure pump is mounted inside the surge tank. I'm using a smaller Duetschworks DW 200 pump that's rated to 650 horspower with this system.

There are much stronger single pumps and dual pump set-up that fit in the surge tank that will flow enough to make much more than that, even with only 3/8" low pressure lines. If you run 1/2" line you will easily be up other the 1000 hp mark.

Attached picture 7568550-SurgeTank.gif
Posted By: jbc426

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 01/31/13 05:26 PM

Here's a picture of the components. Because of the design even with a stock unbaffled tank at low fuel levels, this system is much more resistant to any air cavitation on the high pressure side than the currently available modified tanks available. It's also much easier to install and significantly less expensive.

My engine only has 300 something horspower, so I an using a smallish low presssure pump. It still flows a significant volume of fuel to the front of the car and back to the tank, but at nearly 0 psi.

There are many ways to skin a cat, but you can buy your entire surge tank fuel system for the price of just a custom tank, and it will out perform it too.



Attached picture 7568555-IMG_3226(Large).JPG
Posted By: jbc426

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 01/31/13 05:32 PM

This is the high pressure side of my system. The EFI pump is inside the black surge tank, and the bypass regulator is on top of the tank.

Attached picture 7568562-IMG_3209(Large).JPG
Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 01/31/13 05:37 PM

While you claim it outperforms a single tank style, which is probably never going to be answered, I like the single pump for packaging, as Mine fits up under everything and cannot be seen.

Aside from the single pump just being tucked away better, there is the room the other setup takes up - I know on my early A with duals, rear sway bar etc I have no for for all that stuff...lol

The only other thing is wiring it as well, I only have one wire going back to the fuel pump and while another wire is not a deal breaker the entire package would be a huge cumbersome effort to get up into the bottom of my car.
Posted By: jbc426

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 01/31/13 05:51 PM

There's no question it's still up in the air as far as the outcome of doing an actual side-by-side comparison tests between the two styles of plumbing older cars with retrofit EFI fuel systems, at low fuel levels.

But there's little question in my mind that a surge tank system will be pumping solid fuel though the high pressure side while a minimally baffled tank mounted pump system, especially without a sump and trap doors will be sucking air.

The low pressure side of the surge tank sytem will also be sucking air, but that air is separated from the inlet of the high pressure pump in the surge tank.

If you ever do have issues at low fuel levels under high G situations, you could always and a surge tank without a pump to your current system and it would out perform almost anything available.

I agree, it is tight up under there! Aside from the front mounted surge tank, this is simply the way you would mount a traditional electric fuel pump system. That's what's nice about it from a retrofitting stand point. If your car was already plumbed for this, all you would need to do to convert to EFI would be to ad the high preesure side up front.

No matter which way anyone decides to go, It's a nice, lower cost alternative for a lot of guys looking to convert their old Mopars to a high performance EFI fuel system without having to buy custom tanks.

Pic = high flow 2 micron fuel filter/water seperator.

Attached picture 7568590-IMG_3257(Large).JPG
Posted By: jbc426

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 01/31/13 05:53 PM

Dual exhaust and swaybars don't make it any easier either.

pic = fuel pump, low pressure side, pushes fuel to surge tank at front of car and back to tank.

Attached picture 7568593-IMG_3256(Large).JPG
Posted By: jbc426

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 01/31/13 05:55 PM

The stock tank and modified sending unit.

Attached picture 7568600-IMG_3258(Large).JPG
Posted By: jbc426

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 01/31/13 06:26 PM

High pressure pump mounted inside surge tank at front of car. Sucks fuel from the bottom of the surge tank, away from any air bubbles/cavitation. As you can see, you can run 0,1, or 2 pumps. With no pump inside, you use a tank mounted or external EFI pump to fill the surge tank. In this case, a long tube picks up fuel from the bottom of the surge tank avoiding the introduction of any air to the injectors.

Fuel flows in from low pressure side, fills up surge tank and pushes any captured air that floats to the top of the surge tank immediately back to the main fuel tank at high volume @ near 0 psi.

Attached picture 7568640-Surge_tank_internals.jpg
Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/11/13 10:08 PM

Quote:

This is the high pressure side of my system. The EFI pump is inside the black surge tank, and the bypass regulator is on top of the tank.



Does this mean the surge tank is fully presurized by the rear pump then?
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/11/13 11:05 PM

Quote:

The stock tank and modified sending unit.



Is your 2 micron filter on the suction side ?
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/11/13 11:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

This is the high pressure side of my system. The EFI pump is inside the black surge tank, and the bypass regulator is on top of the tank.



Does this mean the surge tank is fully presurized by the rear pump then?



I don't know if it's actually pressurized unless there is some type of regulator in the return to the tank ? It looks like by his schematic that the tank gets filled and continually pumps fuel back to the tank.

If it were me I'd have a lot less rubber line and clamps in a system like that , one line lets go and there is going to be lots of fuel pumping where you don't want it ???
Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/11/13 11:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

This is the high pressure side of my system. The EFI pump is inside the black surge tank, and the bypass regulator is on top of the tank.



Does this mean the surge tank is fully presurized by the rear pump then?



I don't know if it's actually pressurized unless there is some type of regulator in the return to the tank ? It looks like by his schematic that the tank gets filled and continually pumps fuel back to the tank.

If it were me I'd have a lot less rubber line and clamps in a system like that , one line lets go and there is going to be lots of fuel pumping where you don't want it ???



I agree on the rubber lines...hardline or PTFE braided would be the way to go for me....

It just seems like the return would be gravity fed back to the tank and wouldn't keep up with the return flow unless the whole surge tank was totally filled and ultimately pressurized at least to some degree..
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/11/13 11:47 PM

Can't see it getting pressurized very much over whatever the pump feeding it is ?
Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/12/13 01:29 AM

Quote:

Can't see it getting pressurized very much over whatever the pump feeding it is ?



Ahh...your right, after thinking about it...without a regulator or restriction after the pump, there would be no real pressure.
Posted By: wldtm

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/12/13 04:48 AM

Quote:

i have read that some of the guys here have ordered 1/2 stainless fuel line from fine lines that was pre bent...how did it fit?????

i am also considering ordering the return line in 3/8...i konw our cars came with 3/8 fuel with 1/4 return and i am wondering if 1/2 fuel and 3/8 return will fit with minor tweaking in factory location ???

i really want this set up to work for my 700hp efi project...any thoughts will help.i posted this under question and answer and got no response so any info will help...



I wanted to run stainless with the factory style quick connects on my efi system, and not use any AN adapters, but I could not flare the stainless with the hyrdaulic tool.

I went with aluminum, used scotch bright and put a brush finish on it. Now no rust on the inside or out, its easier to manipulate that steel or stainless, and was cheaper.

My opinion.

I also used the rock valley set up. Very happy with their set up.

JM
Posted By: jbc426

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/13/13 01:53 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Can't see it getting pressurized very much over whatever the pump feeding it is ?



Ahh...your right, after thinking about it...without a regulator or restriction after the pump, there would be no real pressure.



The low pressure side is at or very near 0 psi. Using EFI rated rubber line with a 200 psi working pressure limit and EFI rated fuel line clamps, I'm sure this set-up will be safe, especially at such low working pressures. I did buy an Earl's tubing beader and put beads on all the line ends.
Posted By: jbc426

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/13/13 02:06 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The stock tank and modified sending unit.



Is your 2 micron filter on the suction side ?



It is a 2 micron filter/water seperator. These filters are 30 GPH flow with a very low restriction. I'm running a second one up front just before the surge tank.

http://shop.perma-cool.com/media/300016%20rev3.pdf
Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/13/13 02:07 AM

I'm sure It's functional....but NHRA only allows 6" total on the car unless the hose is on their approved list...if you don't race, then that won't matter.
Posted By: jbc426

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/13/13 02:33 AM

I thought it was 12 inches total. I still have more aluminum line, but it would be hard to get the total ruber line down to 6 inches. I bet I could do it with less than 12 inches with the addition of a bit more aluminum hardline and a few more clamps, but that seems worse than what I have.

It's a just bit more $ to replace these lines with braided stuff or braided pushlock, which is no doubt better, but I'm not going to any NHRA tracks with this car.

This is a street car that may see very occasional time on a road course with minimal tech inspections.

The whole reason I went this route instead of the custom baffled fuel tank route was lower cost and better EFI fuel system performance with less than a full tank of fuel.
Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/13/13 04:55 AM

Quote:

I thought it was 12 inches total. I still have more aluminum line, but it would be hard to get the total ruber line down to 6 inches. I bet I could do it with less than 12 inches with the addition of a bit more aluminum hardline and a few more clamps, but that seems worse than what I have.

It's a just bit more $ to replace these lines with braided stuff or braided pushlock, which is no doubt better, but I'm not going to any NHRA tracks with this car.

This is a street car that may see very occasional time on a road course with minimal tech inspections.

The whole reason I went this route instead of the custom baffled fuel tank route was lower cost and better EFI fuel system performance with less than a full tank of fuel.



Oops...your right, it's 12" for NHRA (I double checked)....and I'm not saying anything bad at all about the way you did it. I have a sumped and baffled aluminum Hot Rod Shop tank myself....but I needed a new tank anyways due to rust and it was only like $350 or so. It isn't for EFI....so I bought a Bosch 044 external inline pump and will just mount it as low as possible. I was just considering the idea of making my front mounted Nitrous enrichment fuel tank into a surge tank, but it has a o-ringed screw cap and was worried that it would leak if pressurized.....but I think I'm going to skip the surge tank since my tank is baffled and sumped.
Posted By: jbc426

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/13/13 05:42 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I thought it was 12 inches total. I still have more aluminum line, but it would be hard to get the total ruber line down to 6 inches. I bet I could do it with less than 12 inches with the addition of a bit more aluminum hardline and a few more clamps, but that seems worse than what I have.

It's a just bit more $ to replace these lines with braided stuff or braided pushlock, which is no doubt better, but I'm not going to any NHRA tracks with this car.

This is a street car that may see very occasional time on a road course with minimal tech inspections.

The whole reason I went this route instead of the custom baffled fuel tank route was lower cost and better EFI fuel system performance with less than a full tank of fuel.



Oops...your right, it's 12" for NHRA (I double checked)....and I'm not saying anything bad at all about the way you did it. I have a sumped and baffled aluminum Hot Rod Shop tank myself....but I needed a new tank anyways due to rust and it was only like $350 or so. It isn't for EFI....so I bought a Bosch 044 external inline pump and will just mount it as low as possible. I was just considering the idea of making my front mounted Nitrous enrichment fuel tank into a surge tank, but it has a o-ringed screw cap and was worried that it would leak if pressurized.....but I think I'm going to skip the surge tank since my tank is baffled and sumped.




I started out with a 1968 carburated slant six fuel system, so I had to change almost everything when I decided to put a 5.9 Magnum and run the EFI. I intitially thought about going with stainless lines, but found out how hard it is to work with steel lines. It's tough to bend, straighten and manipulate into position etc. Aluminum can be challenging enough, but can be done neatly and safely. The larger the tubing the tougher the job, so 1/2 inch stainless line, even the pre-formed stuff would be tough to install.

I found out about the whole surge tank thing from the import tuners. They have problems with their fuel system sucking air with their factory baffeled fuel tanks, so they use these. I haven't seen another Mopar with this type of full-return flow set-up yet, and thought it was a good performance oriented alternative to what a lot of guys are doing to upgrade their fuel systems to support EFI.

The nice thing about it is that if you already have a return fuel system with a rear mounted electric pump and want to upgrade to EFI, all you need is a front mounted surge tank with an internal pump, a few feet of braided line, fuel rails, some fittings and a bypass regulator.

If you ever have problems with sucking air in your current system when the tank gets low, you can always add a simple surge tank. It makes things pretty simple and you wont need to touch the main tank.
Posted By: 74yellowduster

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/13/13 01:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The stock tank and modified sending unit.



Is your 2 micron filter on the suction side ?



It is a 2 micron filter/water seperator. These filters are 30 GPH flow with a very low restriction. I'm running a second one up front just before the surge tank.

http://shop.perma-cool.com/media/300016%20rev3.pdf



should be 100 micron before the pump. 85 maybe. but not 2! 10 micron after the pump is sufficiently small, but never run a fine filter before the pump. 30GPH sounds kind of small, considering most pumps will put out 100GPH or more.
Posted By: jbc426

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/13/13 02:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The stock tank and modified sending unit.



Is your 2 micron filter on the suction side ?



It is a 2 micron filter/water seperator. These filters are 30 GPH flow with a very low restriction. I'm running a second one up front just before the surge tank.

http://shop.perma-cool.com/media/300016%20rev3.pdf



should be 100 micron before the pump. 85 maybe. but not 2! 10 micron after the pump is sufficiently small, but never run a fine filter before the pump. 30GPH sounds kind of small, considering most pumps will put out 100GPH or more.



It is on the small side, but according to the calculations I've found on-line, 30 GPH filtered down to 2 microns is sufficient for 400 hp with a BSFC of .45. My motor is only going to have about 300hp for a while.

I'll have to add another pre-filter and install a larger low-side pump when I upgrade the motor.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/13/13 03:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The stock tank and modified sending unit.



Is your 2 micron filter on the suction side ?



It is a 2 micron filter/water seperator. These filters are 30 GPH flow with a very low restriction. I'm running a second one up front just before the surge tank.

http://shop.perma-cool.com/media/300016%20rev3.pdf



How is that 30GPH restriction going to effect a pump that is probably capable of sucking 90GPH - 110GPH ???

I see someone beat me to it ...

You need a bigger filter on the suction side , I assume you already have a filter sock on the pickup ?
Posted By: 74yellowduster

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/13/13 04:03 PM

what i was trying to say is this: 10micron after pump (fine particles) 100 micron before pump. you never want a fine 10 micron (or 2 micron!) on the suction side of a pump. it will cause the pump to overwork, overheating, cavitation at the pump inlet section and will damage the pump.

here's an example of how to set it up from holley's site.

aeromotive says the same thing. 100micron or bigger before pumps, 10 micron after.

Attached picture 7586728-filters.JPG
Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: 1/2 stainless from fine lines for efi ? - 02/13/13 04:13 PM

Quote:

what i was trying to say is this: 10micron after pump (fine particles) 100 micron before pump. you never want a fine 10 micron (or 2 micron!) on the suction side of a pump. it will cause the pump to overwork, overheating, cavitation at the pump inlet section and will damage the pump.

here's an example of how to set it up from holley's site.

aeromotive says the same thing. 100micron or bigger before pumps, 10 micron after.



I had these exact problems when I used a 40 micron Mallory cartridge style filter before my pump (carbed application). And thats exactly the way they show you to install it in the Mallory instructions too. It caused all kinds of problems after about 1/2 hour of running.....

First time I pulled the cartidge filter out, it was half collapsed too. Put a new cartridge in and had the same issues again until I fixed my installation (put it post pump).
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