Doing It Right The First Time

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Maybe someone knows how to make these type of rockers work under a small block stroker and a 557 or 590 lift purple shaft cam. Rpm range around 6800-7200. Hp maybe like 450 hp.

Econo W2 and a stroker, yor really going to have to mess that combination up to have it only make 450 HP using a Mopar cam is a good start to acheive that goal

Cab, Brock lives app one hour from me and I TRIED to point him in a direction that he could build a low maintenance engine on a budget that would run 10's. Pump gas, 6400-6500 rpm, 520-550 lift solid cam, his W2 heads and a good intake (I like the W2 Victor). Hopefully his chassis works well enough and a 5200-5500 convertor. In his 2800# car that combo should go 10.20's-10.50's

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I had to edit this to add that I also recommended using a H beem connecting rod instead of wasting money reconditioning stock rods.

If he changes rods will he not need a re-balance??? Good rod bolts and a re-size will work at that RPM.........
What pistons?? how heavy are they??

I will NEVER recommend someone that is building a 10 second engine to use stock reconditioned rods. Why would you ever want to. Put a good rod in it an put the money that you would have spent on a junk set of rods toward the cost. That way the hardest part of the build is done. You can always port or change out the heads at a later date and not worry about the rods being able to take the added HP.

And a race build running 10's should be balanced by a machine shop, not a factory balance job.

Yes I agree it should not have the factory balance........ Stock rods in that combo are absolutely not an issue, but if you are going to balance and re-size the factory rods... the Chinese H beams are not much more money in the big picture........... I'm not convinced the Chinese rods are any better than a factory rod.........

Posted By: 70AARcuda

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 01:39 AM

If those are your heads...better take a good look at them... cause it looks like the shafts go through stands...they are not bolted to a pedestal...NOT Econo heads...

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 01:44 AM

I'll take a H-beam over the factory rod any day... I
put a new set of Viper rods(they are shot penned and
magnafluxed before they go into the viper engines)
in a 340...I tore one in half on my small block at
7500 rpm... I havent broke any Eagle H-beams yet at
a much higher rpm(they are the older Eagles which
to me were better quality.. but I cant say for fact)

Posted By: 340_Dart

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 01:44 AM

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If those are your heads...better take a good look at them... cause it looks like the shafts go through stands...they are not bolted to a pedestal...NOT Econo heads...

I thought i saw bolt on stands, which means they're a long valve race head with open chambers.

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 01:54 AM

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If those are your heads...better take a good look at them... cause it looks like the shafts go through stands...they are not bolted to a pedestal...NOT Econo heads...

I thought i saw bolt on stands, which means they're a long valve race head with open chambers.

I thought he said in the one post they were supposed to have 2.05 or 2.08 valves in them. Pretty sure all the econo's have 3/8 (2.02) valves. Mine did.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 01:58 AM

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If those are your heads...better take a good look at them... cause it looks like the shafts go through stands...they are not bolted to a pedestal...NOT Econo heads...

I thought i saw bolt on stands, which means they're a long valve race head with open chambers.

Yeah those are the race heads..... NOT the econo's
the one set I have is the econo long valve but another
set is the standard econo... which to my understanding
has a different pedestal height and location

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 02:02 AM

I thought he said in the one post they were supposed to have 2.05 or 2.08 valves in them. Pretty sure all the econo's have 3/8 (2.02) valves. Mine did.

You could get the econo in a 2.08, thats what I
have... they are the long valve but came in 3/8

Posted By: Hot 340

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 02:04 AM

The OP is like a chicken with his head cut off. 20 different directions at once. All the advice seems to be bouncing off his head.

Start with a wiring harness and a good set of headers. Leave your rockers alone.

Posted By: 70AARcuda

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 02:28 AM

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If those are your heads...better take a good look at them... cause it looks like the shafts go through stands...they are not bolted to a pedestal...NOT Econo heads...

I thought i saw bolt on stands, which means they're a long valve race head with open chambers.

Yeah those are the race heads..... NOT the econo's
the one set I have is the econo long valve but another
set is the standard econo... which to my understanding
has a different pedestal height and location

got a set of each long valve and standard length valve econo w2, yes you can see the pedestal are higher on the long valve one...

you can put a 2.05 or 2.08 in either head...plus change the valve stems to 11/32...

Posted By: 10.90 Racer

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 02:36 AM

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Yes I agree it should not have the factory balance........ Stock rods in that combo are absolutely not an issue, but if you are going to balance and re-size the factory rods... the Chinese H beams are not much more money in the big picture........... I'm not convinced the Chinese rods are any better than a factory rod.........

That's interesting ......where did the rod break??? Did you upgrade the rod bolts?? I thought all factory rods were shot peened??

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 02:38 AM

I know you can have the guides bushed to 11/32 but
wasnt sure if the location of the stand is different
or its just the angle and the height of the stands..
whats the installed spring height on the standard..
is that 1.88... so if you put the long valve in dont
you run into a issue of the rocker not lining up right

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 02:45 AM

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Yes I agree it should not have the factory balance........ Stock rods in that combo are absolutely not an issue, but if you are going to balance and re-size the factory rods... the Chinese H beams are not much more money in the big picture........... I'm not convinced the Chinese rods are any better than a factory rod.........

I'll take a H-beam over the factory rod any day... I
put a new set of Viper rods(they are shot penned and
magnafluxed before they go into the viper engines)
in a 340...I tore one in half on my small block at
7500 rpm... I havent broke any Eagle H-beams yet at
a much higher rpm(they are the older Eagles which
to me were better quality.. but I cant say for fact)

That's interesting ......where did the rod break??? Did you upgrade the rod bolts?? I thought all factory rods were shot peened??

Good bolts.. no, not all factory rods are shot penned
and my rod was still bolted to the crank but the
other end and chunks of the piston came out of the
block... it trashed everything in that engine
EDIT
tore it in half right in the middle

Posted By: 10.90 Racer

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 03:24 AM

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Yes I agree it should not have the factory balance........ Stock rods in that combo are absolutely not an issue, but if you are going to balance and re-size the factory rods... the Chinese H beams are not much more money in the big picture........... I'm not convinced the Chinese rods are any better than a factory rod.........

I'll take a H-beam over the factory rod any day... I
put a new set of Viper rods(they are shot penned and
magnafluxed before they go into the viper engines)
in a 340...I tore one in half on my small block at
7500 rpm... I havent broke any Eagle H-beams yet at
a much higher rpm(they are the older Eagles which
to me were better quality.. but I cant say for fact)

That's interesting ......where did the rod break??? Did you upgrade the rod bolts?? I thought all factory rods were shot peened??

Hmmmmmm I measured the cross section of a SB rod and compared it to a BB rod the cross section was very close..... making me think if it will survive in a 440 with 1000g pistons ........... it's a cake walk in a SB........

You never know, maybe something else went wrong........ That said I have H beams in my 408 and the good Manley's I Beams in my 360.

Posted By: Sb Valiant

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 02:32 PM

LOL I was told they were Econo W-2's. Alot of this confusion I get is off the parts we even have! If they are really the race W-2's that would be cool! I started working on the heads and I'll post some before and after pics up maybe later tonight!

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 02:42 PM

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LOL I was told they were Econo W-2's. Alot of this confusion I get is off the parts we even have! If they are really the race W-2's that would be cool! I started working on the heads and I'll post some before and after pics up maybe later tonight!

Its easy to tell the difference... the race head has
a flat pad the rocker support bolts to... the econo
had a tall stand with the 1/2 round cut in it for
the rocker shaft to mount on

Posted By: slippery440

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 04:19 PM

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The OP is like a chicken with his head cut off. 20 different directions at once. All the advice seems to be bouncing off his head. Start with a wiring harness and a good set of headers. Leave your rockers alone.

So far you guys have put a dremel tool in this kids hands to ruin the heads. Then you have him buying rods and HS rockers and preaty soon he will be asking about pistons if he has'nt already. Then a cam and there will be 100 differant ideas for that.
Sb how about telling these guys how much money you have right now for this project? That will get all these guys in the ballpark. You seam to have unliminted time on your hands as in your working on this project everyday and asking more questions every day. Not to be a A/H but when do you work at a real job?
How about taking all the parts to a real machine shop and find out what is usable and what needs to be replaced.I can tell you one thing I do know is to leave the dremel on the bench and be happy with what you have or send the heads out to a profesonal head porter.These guys are not mentioning how easy it is to get the ports to big and hit water or after you get done and the head cracks after a few pass's.

Love how guys here on moparts are so egger to help a young guy. Which is great!! But no one ask the hard questions like How much money you have today to spend on this? What is your goal? What is the time frame? How much experance do you have with rebuilding motors from the ground up? Some of you guys just take it for granted all the guys that have Mopars are road scholars.
I am in the process of building a motor now and I am in over thousand dollars in parts in rotating assembly. All new stuff guys never used but was told they needed. Looking at thousand dollars for machine work.Could be more? Anouther 600 to 800 in rod bearings and rings and gaskets. Probly on the cheap side. Cam / lifters and push rods used roller will waste 400 to 500 dollars. Used rollers rockers 300 dollars and these are for just a stock replacement rocker add 200 dollars for W2s / Indy or B1s. Where am I going with this? The OP has not answer any question pertaining to questions that was asked about this.
So Sbvaliant do you have a plan and time table? Do you have around 4 grand to spend? This is using new/used parts. How many motors have you put together? Just count the ones that stayed in one peice.
Answer three questions and you will find you will get alot better answers,

Posted By: Sb Valiant

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 04:33 PM

Hey guy I don't know why you are trying to attack me or other people all I am trying to do is learn and they are trying to help! So I don't know what your deal is?

You want the honest truth I have 700 bucks and growing so far of cash to spend. I have a cam I have lifters. Just need some minor machine work done and a rotating assembly. I messaged Mr P Body and told him our heads had so much carbon build up that when they started to clean up it looks like the heads have atleast already been bowl blended. So very minor work needs done to the heads. While I am at it I'll get the intake to match. I have a guy that does heads for a living for the past over 30 years and lives 30 min from me and does good work for a very reasonable price! Then I plan on buying a rotating assembly. Possibly from summit where I can save money. I have a bunch of summit bucks that needs used up plus if I buy a scat crank I can get 50 summit back. So I am trying to play it smart and save money that way. The summit in Ohio is only about 40 min from my house so it's not like it will hurt me to either drive there or ship it. I got some guys buying parts off me which is helping me build up some cash. All and all I used was some brake cleaner and a rag to help clean up the heads? I'll take some steel wool to get the rest of it off Idk what the big deal is there? I don't have a Job some yes it's pretty tough coming up with the money. I am 17 years old and I go out to my 76 year old grandmas every night to help her during the week after school and on the weekend and that's where the car and part's happen to be. I have people to vouch for me on here that I do this! I sell spare part's that we either have that we used and don't want anymore or stuff that just didn't work or stuff that's laying around that we never used. Yes I will have like 3500 dollars in this engine but I do have a few ways of saving money so it won't be all that bad! Also about the machine shop they are 15 min away and they do good work and are reasonable as well! Last but not least some of the other little things I need I can get from summit as well like I said I can save by having the summit bucks and you can call it what ever you want but every little bit count's for savings for atleast for me!

Posted By: Sb Valiant

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 05:06 PM

Like I said numerous times the goal is to go into the 10's in the 1/4!! The car is 2800 lbs race ready so we have a big advantage and don't need as much motor as some. We have had 3 engines through out 6 years and 2 ran ok and 1 didn't. My plan is to build probaly a real small stroker maybe just a 372 cubic inch engine. I don't need 416 to run in the 10's. Time table is to be out in the month of June. No I do not have 4k to spend off hand but if you give me 3 months that will be a different story. This engine will be built with mostly new parts. I plan on running some crane gold roller rockers and probaly selling the ductile iron rockers. I am way better off then you think I am from the way you are acting and making it sound. But Time Will Tell Won't It!

Posted By: slippery440

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 05:12 PM

Not attacking you at all!!! Now all these guys know what you have to work with and now can help you within your budget and time frame. One last bit of advice. Spend money where you need to to get this car to the track.No more!!! Get to the track as often as you can and have fun. Then when you get to the ripe age of 21 and have a job you can add to what you have. Thats if you don't have a girl friend

Posted By: Triple Threat

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 05:26 PM

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My plan is to build probaly a real small stroker maybe just a 372 cubic inch engine. I don't need 416 to run in the 10's.

Its going to cost the same amount of money to build a 416 as it would to build the 372. The 416 would require less RPM to run the same ET as the smaller motor, therefore it would be easier on parts. For a bracket car, you're better off building the bigger engine and turning less RPM, its going to be easier on valve train and everything else.

My last engine was a 318 with a 4" crank = 390" it went 10.75@123 shifting at 6600RPM at 3500#, a similar engine in your car will go 10.0

Posted By: Sb Valiant

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 05:44 PM

The thing that gets me is yes I would like an engine to turn less rpm and be easier on parts but I don't want the engine to be a 10.0 engine because the car itself won't make it there the way it is now. It might be good for 10.40-10.50's and that's if we get everything we have now set right. Anything past this I can't see happening without getting a way better suspension then what we got!

Posted By: moparguy7074

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 05:54 PM

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The thing that gets me is yes I would like an engine to turn less rpm and be easier on parts but I don't want the engine to be a 10.0 engine because the car itself won't make it there the way it is now. It might be good for 10.40-10.50's and that's if we get everything we have now set right. Anything past this I can't see happening without getting a way better suspension then what we got!

Dont be sure about that. I have a buddy that has a 72 Duster, stock front suspension and super stock springs on the rear, nothing special, that has gone low 10.20's. His car weighs 3200 and he has a 408.

Posted By: Sb Valiant

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 06:05 PM

You know what maybe I should just forget about the roller lifters and roller cam. Just get a set of crane gold roller rockers. Run my 557 or 590 purple shaft. I can always go to a 1.6 rocker and make the cam I have now bigger! Build a 416 stroker I have a 750 cfm carb I can use for now and later upgrade to a 850 or 950. I have a set of headers but they are just to far out there to run. I'll build another set. Do very little work to heads and intake. Get some 4.56 gears for the car and new shocks and run her. Does this sound 10 second worthy and on a budget? I am only looking for mid 10's at best.

Posted By: Triple Threat

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 06:06 PM

So you can either put less camshaft in it, short shift, pull timing, limit throttle or do many other things. Its really easy to slow a car down if you need to.

Heres what I would do if I was you;

408-416"
10:1 compression
Scat rotating assembly
Camshaft around [Email]250@.050[/Email] 550 lift
Your W2's cleaned up with springs to match the cam
Your intake
750 carb is plenty
a GOOD 8" converter ~5000 stall

Gear/ tire it so you cross the stripe just a touch higher than where you shift.

That combo will go high 10's at 2800# with EASE, and live for years. It will also run on pump gas which will save you money and allow you to race more often. You don't need 12:1 compression and you don't need or want to turn 7000+ if you don't have to.

That's my opinion, I'm a 26 year old kid who has been racing since I got my license. I have raced on a tight budget and have been in your shoes before. I'm a bracket racer and put 200-300 runs a year on my car, so I've learned what it takes to get the job done.

Posted By: Sb Valiant

Re: Doing It Right The First Time - 01/21/13 06:33 PM

I like this combination.

I am glad you know where I am coming from!

The purple shaft cam that I have is either a 252 at .050 or 265 at .050. Depending on the lift of the cam wether it's the 557 which has the 252 or the 590 which has the 265. This cam I have is in very reasonable condition and if it wouldn't be to bad for this combo I would love to use it! Getting heads and intake to match the cam and getting the right springs won't be a problem! I like the fact of saving money and being out more often running the pump gas! I really can't put up a grand for a new converter so there is 2 options there. Have the converter reworked if I have the extra money or just run it the way it is. It's a tci 10" 4000 stall. The tire is a 29.5x10.5 hoosier.

Doing It Right The First Time