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MoPig oil system --> NOW WITH PICTURES!!! 8^)

Posted By: BradH

MoPig oil system --> NOW WITH PICTURES!!! 8^) - 11/28/12 04:13 PM

What I ran before on the 440 that pushed my 3750# Challenger into the mid-10s was the MP Street Hemi replica pan w/ a OEM-type windage tray modified by me to have some additional drainage louvres, and a 1/2" OEM-type pickup. Pretty basic stuff, really.

However, I'll be the first to admit that's an unsophisticated oil system for a 600+ HP engine and am looking to improve it while staying w/ a simple(r) low-profile system, rather than start fearing every parking lot speedbump crushing a deeper 7" pan.

So I...

1. got a Milodon Street Hemi replica pan because it's made better than the spot-welded POS that MP sells

1. got an Ishara-Johnson crank scraper to help strip oil off the crank and keep it down in the bottom end

2. got a full-length louvred windage tray from 440 Source (a less expensive Milodon-style tray) to replace my home-louvred MP tray

3. added perimeter oil drainage passages to the windage try that are already present in the I-J crank scraper; also I added a few more to the scraper than it came with, since I thought there was room for improvement in helping drain oil that collected on the edge of the block rather than going down into the windage tray

4. added more louvres to the windage tray where I thought it made sense, primarily to give the oil coming back down from the crank scraper an exit path

5. had a local race shop fabricate & install a larger accel/decel baffle over the open center sump area to provide more coverage of the sump during hard g-forces

6. had that shop also fabricate & install some drainage dams to help channel the oil being pulled off by the windage tray back towards the center sump (inspired by some BMW oil pan pictures I saw)

All of this is in the hope of ending up w/ a more effcient oiling system that still uses an OEM-type low-profile pan. Only time will tell...

Yes, I'll post some pictures when there's time to take 'em and install the new photo manager software on our "rebuilt" home computer."
Posted By: Chris2581

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/28/12 10:11 PM

Looking forward to the work. I'm using the I-J scraper but without a windage tray.8qt Moroso pan,but I want to go with the 6qt Milodon as I too want to avoid the crushing of a deep pan.
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 12:51 AM

Sounds good Brad
I am also tired of hearing my aluminum oil pan scrape on the manhole covers
I was wondering about the quality of the cheap imitations out there
So the Milodon it is then with a crank scraper
Gus

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Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 05:26 AM

Old pan: MP Street Hemi replica (unmodified)

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Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 05:27 AM

View 2 of MP pan

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Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 05:28 AM

Modified Milodon Street Hemi pan shown here. Standard baffling is basically (not exactly) the same as the MP piece, so the additional sump cover and drainage dams stand out pretty clearly.

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Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 05:29 AM

Top view of Milodon pan w/ mods.

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Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 05:30 AM

OEM-type windage tray to which I added some louvres.

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Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 05:31 AM

Another view of modified OEM windage tray that I used to run w/ the MP Street Hemi pan.

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Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 05:32 AM

440 Source Milodon-type windage tray to which I added perimeter drainage holes matching the I-J crank scraper.

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Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 05:33 AM

A different view of new modified windage tray.

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Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 05:35 AM

I-J crank scraper mocked up on block.

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Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 05:36 AM

Different perspective on crank scraper showing the deflector tabs used to catch oil on the "down swing" vs. the tabs used on the other side to scrape it off on the "up swing.

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Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 05:38 AM

Tray mocked up in pan.

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Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 05:39 AM

Scraper on tray mocked up in pan.

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Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 05:40 AM

View from other side.

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Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 05:44 AM

Just for the he11 of it, a less-than-focused picture that shows the profiling I did to the leading edges of the Eagle crank 'cuz the original "square as a brick" corners didn't sit well with me.

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Posted By: Kevins493

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 06:41 AM

You did this after it was balanced, didn't you Brad?
Looking forward to seeing the Challenger at the track again!! Let me know if you need a hand with anything.. I'm only an hour away at most and my last-ever winter break is fast approaching.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 06:52 AM

Quote:

Just for the he11 of it, a less-than-focused picture that shows the profiling I did to the leading edges of the Eagle crank 'cuz the original "square as a brick" corners didn't sit well with me.

Never seen a scraper that covers the whole pan rail before...........I like it and it looks like you bend that inner ledge to profile to your crank if I`m seeing that right.
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 02:38 PM

I looks to me like you have a great combo there. The only thing left that could be done would be a side bucket on the pan if this system still has oil pressure loss at any point. I once put an oil pressure gauge on a motor with huge (3/16?) line and a larger inlet hole on the gauge. You could see the oil pump pulse at idle. That and an an in car video will tell the tale! What weight oil do you run?
Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 08:17 PM

Answers to misc. questions / comments above:

- Yes, the crank balancing was done AFTER the profiling of the throws

- I was considering pulling the deflector tabs out a little further to put their edges even closer to the crank

- If I still see evidence of pressure loss (my biggest concern is under hard deceleration), I'll add an Accusump, which I'd been consdering even before deciding to do all these mods

- I've traditionally run 15w50 or 20w50, but will also be adding an oil temp gauge to see how much heat the oil really holds on the long drives to & from the track. If it's not getting as hot as I suspect, I'll consider dropping down to a 10w40 or 15w40 (but nothing thinner).
Posted By: VernMotor

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/29/12 09:00 PM

So the only part of this I don't understand is the drainage dams.. could you expain this ? thanks
Posted By: davenc

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/30/12 03:07 AM

Is the windage tray tall enough to sit down in the oil in the pan?
Posted By: 52savoy

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/30/12 07:21 AM

I understand the angled dams in the rear but wouldn't be better if they were curled?

Use 1" thin wall tubing and cut it length ways,using the 180degrees to channel oil to the sump. That way when the oil hits the modified tube it's channeled to the pan without splashing off and or up.

I've made similar mods to stock small block pans.

Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/30/12 02:59 PM

Quote:

So the only part of this I don't understand is the drainage dams.. could you expain this ?


The intent is they “should” help direct the oil back towards the main sump that's being collected through the windage tray vents & drains, rather than just pool up and splash around.

Quote:

Is the windage tray tall enough to sit down in the oil in the pan?


Not sure if I understand your question, but the tray should NOT be deep enough to get into the oil. The tray is intended to help remove oil caught up in the spinning crank assembly and allow it to drain back down to the sump where it can actually do some good.

Quote:

I understand the angled dams in the rear but wouldn't be better if they were curled?


Maybe, but the examples of dams that I saw in other pans that gave me the ideas for these were all simply tabs.

FWIW, I looked at a whole bunch of pans for different engines and saw some features which I decided could be of help w/ this OEM-type design. I made a bunch of poster board templates for the sump baffle and the drainage dams, mocked 'em up to make sure the windage tray would still be able to fit properly in the pan, and took the pan, templates, and windage tray to the shop. Their shop foreman (who happens to run an Outlaw 10.5 truck) looked over what I'd proposed and said “No problem, I can do this.”

You're seeing the final product above.
Posted By: Von

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/30/12 03:30 PM

Just a thought...have you checked that the pickup clears the tray? I used a source tray and had to hack a large portion of it to get the pickup (source also) to work.
Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/30/12 03:59 PM

Using the Milodon pickup and there are no clearance issues. I don't have the picture showing everything mocked up on the block w/ the pickup installed on this 'puter, but it all fits w/o any issues.
Posted By: Von

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/30/12 04:24 PM

What pump are you going to use?
Posted By: Bigfury

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 11/30/12 10:08 PM

No girdle
Posted By: davenc

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 12/01/12 04:00 AM

Quote:



Quote:
Is the windage tray tall enough to sit down in the oil in the pan?


Not sure if I understand your question, but the tray should NOT be deep enough to get into the oil. The tray is intended to help remove oil caught up in the spinning crank assembly and allow it to drain back down to the sump where it can actually do some good



Sorry, my question wasn't clear. I understand the tray should not be deep enough to get into the oil. In one of your pictures it looks like the tray goes deep into the pan, to about the height of the dams you added. Of course it is really had to tell from a picture. How high is the oil level in the pan when filled with 6 quarts? I'm thinking it is above the baffles in the sump. I was trying to question whether the tray would get to the oil level.
Posted By: 67_Satellite

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 12/01/12 08:08 PM

Look very closely at the main caps and the side of the block.
Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 12/06/12 11:27 PM

Quote:

... How high is the oil level in the pan when filled with 6 quarts? I'm thinking it is above the baffles in the sump. I was trying to question whether the tray would get to the oil level.


Good question: I'll have to dump 6 qts of something into the pan and see where the level comes up to. It's a factory 6-qt design, so I'd ASSume that much oil woiuld be below the original baffles in the sump... but I'll check to be sure.
Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 12/06/12 11:29 PM

Quote:

No girdle


Not on that block. That particular one has the Pro-Gram cross-bolted conversion caps installed on #2-4.

My other block (work in progress) that's already been fitted w/ aluminum main caps will be getting a main cap girdle (unless I change my mind before I bolt it all together).
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 12/07/12 12:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

... How high is the oil level in the pan when filled with 6 quarts? I'm thinking it is above the baffles in the sump. I was trying to question whether the tray would get to the oil level.


Good question: I'll have to dump 6 qts of something into the pan and see where the level comes up to. It's a factory 6-qt design, so I'd ASSuME that much oil would be below the original baffles in the sump... but I'll check to be sure.



A 6qt pan would have 5, plus whatever wasn't in the full size filter, in the sump.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 12/07/12 03:47 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

... How high is the oil level in the pan when filled with 6 quarts? I'm thinking it is above the baffles in the sump. I was trying to question whether the tray would get to the oil level.


Good question: I'll have to dump 6 qts of something into the pan and see where the level comes up to. It's a factory 6-qt design, so I'd ASSuME that much oil would be below the original baffles in the sump... but I'll check to be sure.



A 6qt pan would have 5, plus whatever wasn't in the full size filter, in the sump.

Not true, the Mopar Hemi/440-6pak oil pan held 6 quarts in the pan plus one in the filter You could put 5 quarts in the early street Hemi pans also, some put 6 quarts in them after checking how much they would hold in the pan safely on the bench
Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 12/07/12 03:30 PM

Milodon lists the 30761 pan as 6 qts + filter, just like Cab mentioned about the Street Hemi pan.

I have wondered when using the Street Hemi pan before if that's actually a little more than ideal, considering my OEM standard-pan dipstick indicated 5 quarts in the MP Street Hemi pan was right on the "full" mark, too.
Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 05/04/15 07:10 PM

bump from waaaay back (2012 eek).

The old combination was spinning 6600-6800, depending on track / air quality / MPH, but I'm expecting the new one to bump up the MPH enough that it may be seeing 7K+.

I'm interested in whether people think the oil system mods outlined above (description & pics attached) should be acceptable for 7000-7200 RPM on the big end.

Still considering an Accusump as a possibility, too. Thanks!
Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 05/04/15 07:21 PM

Originally Posted By BradH
Quote:
... How high is the oil level in the pan when filled with 6 quarts? I'm thinking it is above the baffles in the sump. I was trying to question whether the tray would get to the oil level.

Good question: I'll have to dump 6 qts of something into the pan and see where the level comes up to. It's a factory 6-qt design, so I'd ASSume that much oil woiuld be below the original baffles in the sump... but I'll check to be sure. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scope.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I did this check and never posted on it. Putting 6 qts in the empty pan resulted in the oil level being ABOVE the factory baffle level by a good bit.

However, some amount would be left circulating in the engine after starting it, plus if a 7th quart would really captured in the filter, then I'd expect it should drop down at least close to the baffle level. The plan is to run it w/ 6 + 1 in the filter at this point.
Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 05/04/15 07:25 PM

Originally Posted By Von
What pump are you going to use?

The ubiquitous Melling 63HV, although it's going to need some casting cleanup to the passages. "Out of the box" they're pretty crusty these days and will require some grinding time before it gets installed.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 05/04/15 09:11 PM

Looks good Brad, be interesting to see how it works. I've been trying some different scraper setups on my dyno mule. It is always hard to tell what works and what doesn't.

I've run an Accusump on my street car for years. I like it primarily for the pre-lube function but it has come in handy a few times when I uncovered the oil pickup in a poorly designed oil pan.

For your car I think the best oil pan would be the Milodon road race. But those pans are expensive and they take up a fair amount of room. What you've built there should do a pretty good job. I say bolt it on and see how it works.

One scary way to so some testing is to keep lowering the oil level until you start to see some oil pressure loss under braking. Other than that, it is hard to tell if the pan is working or not.
Posted By: Chris2581

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 05/04/15 09:43 PM

I decided to add the windage tray after seeing your pics. Otherwise we have the same parts. I'm not spinning my 440 as high as you are,only to 6500.I think it all will work very well.
Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 05/04/15 10:12 PM

Originally Posted By Chris2342
I decided to add the windage tray after seeing your pics. Otherwise we have the same parts. I'm not spinning my 440 as high as you are,only to 6500.I think it all will work very well.

How consistent is your oil pressure, especially coming down from speed? That's a big reason why I focused on improving drainback to the pan, even w/ that simple OEM-type Street Hemi replica.
Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 05/04/15 10:14 PM

Originally Posted By AndyF
Looks good Brad, be interesting to see how it works. I've been trying some different scraper setups on my dyno mule. It is always hard to tell what works and what doesn't.

Yep. It's basically an experiment based on stuff I saw that supposedly worked w/ other applications. luck
Posted By: AndyF

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 05/05/15 12:29 AM

One advantage I have on the dyno is that I have a flow gauge for the oil pump as well as a sight gauge on the oil tank. I can also change the gear ratio on the oil pump in 5 minutes and watch what happens. Even with all of that it is still a little hard to figure out what the engine really wants.

Are your lifter bores bushed? From what I can see, that is probably the biggest improvement that can be made in a BB Mopar engine. Bushing the lifter bores gets rid of a lot oil flow which means more oil in the pan and less windage.

If the lifter bores are not bushed then you're just spraying the oil around with 16 leaks and trying to control all of the windage.
Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 05/05/15 03:54 AM

This block, the 4.380" 440 being freshened up for the 3rd(?) time, has bushed lifter bores. My newly machined 4.375" bore 440 block does not, although that is something else I had considered doing to it.
Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 05/05/15 05:47 AM

If I remember rite, been awhile ,Chrysler did a oil test in the 60s with the hemi. They found that at 7000 rpm 5 quarts of oil was still up in the engine and 1 was in the pan. The reason for the 10 quart pans with swinging pickups, it was hard to make that engine live above 6500 with just the single pickup tube in the block. My thinking would be to address drain back in the engine along with the pan. The pan system you have made up is going in the right direction for oil control in short duration blasts. But one of the main benefits of oil is for coolant of parts in the engine, especially valve springs, so the oil splashing around is needed on long hauls to the track or street crusing, so maybe the improvements you have done would be good for drag racing but not so good for street, just my opinion,
Posted By: Chris2581

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 05/05/15 09:48 PM

Originally Posted By BradH
Originally Posted By Chris2342
I decided to add the windage tray after seeing your pics. Otherwise we have the same parts. I'm not spinning my 440 as high as you are,only to 6500.I think it all will work very well.

How consistent is your oil pressure, especially coming down from speed? That's a big reason why I focused on improving drainback to the pan, even w/ that simple OEM-type Street Hemi replica.


Since the addition of the scraper,the oil pressure is rock steady.I haven't run the engine yet using the scraper and the windage tray,but the engine looked great when I pulled it down.I tore it down to install new pistons to increase the compression.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 05/06/15 03:22 AM

Thanks for posting. Always interesting to hear what others are doing.

I've never had a oil pressure loss problem but I'm not decelerating as hard either. Bearings look perfect when I took it apart.

I have the MP hemi pan, 1/2" pickup and std volume pump ported pretty well.

I use the std Milidon tray (fit fine even with my stroker crank) I-J custom scrapper made from my home made template and then hand fit every crank/scraper clearance point. Added some additional drain back, but not nearly to the extent that you did. Use 5-30 synthetic oil.

My biggest concern is the Eddy head drain back holes. I radiused the holes and ground the block to match the drain back holes in the head for better drain back. But I still don't think it is enough. I have full time oiling to the rocker shafts.
Posted By: varunner

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 08/14/17 01:25 PM

First off, great thread. I really appreciate when someone goes into detail with pics on their projects. Ok, simple question, hopefully simple answer.

If you did the exact same mods with a 4 quart pan and used the scraper, would you see any meaningful different on the dyno ? assuming a 500 hp engine.
Posted By: hemi-itis

Re: MoPig oil system --> NOW WITH PICTURES!!! 8^) - 08/14/17 03:53 PM

Andy,what does a performance big block actually flow? I know my pump will move over 20 GPM,the filter will handle 29 GPM,but what does one actually flow?

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Posted By: BradH

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 08/14/17 11:51 PM

Originally Posted By varunner
First off, great thread. I really appreciate when someone goes into detail with pics on their projects. Ok, simple question, hopefully simple answer.

If you did the exact same mods with a 4 quart pan and used the scraper, would you see any meaningful different on the dyno ? assuming a 500 hp engine.

Holy Crap! This thread is almost 5 years old! And my junk STILL ain't back together... whiney

I don't know if anything I did as covered above would show up much on the dyno, other than maybe "something" from the crank scraper & windage tray. My concern was primarily oil control, since I'm working with an archaic oil system design.

Not sure I'd even bother w/ a 4-quart pan, either. The RPM at which any improvements are likely to show up would be beyond the range which I'd feel comfortable spinning with that small of a pan.
Posted By: varunner

Re: MoPig oil system --> Preview of coming attractions 8^P - 08/15/17 01:56 AM

Good point. I'd be interesting to see how much and where on the rpm scale any gains would show up. All the work you did, it'd have to be worth something !
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