Moparts
360 testing begins,....
I recently began testing on my little 360 street engine and thought I would share a couple things.
The basic rundown for initial testing is;
Stock low mileage77 bottom end, small valve j heads with decent valve job,8.75 to 1 ( for now).
I started testing with an M1 dual plane, MP 450/455 hydraulic cam, 670 Street Avenger,1 5/8" generic headers.
This engine is not very exciting,but is a basis for future improvements.
After dialing in timing and jetting,it makes 360 lbs-ft torque and 310 horsepower.
I am running a stock truck style oil pan,standard oil pump, and started doing some oil testing.
The engine pulled well up to 5500 with the pan filled to one pint below the add mark . I added one pint to bring it up to the add mark,no change. One more pint to bring it above that mark,and the engine starts to lose poor hard above 5000.
It also starts losing a little pressure when coming off the high rpm,then settles back down,must be foaming the oil.
No windage tray,15/40 Rotella
More to come as time allows.
Keith
Posted By: Crizila
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/21/12 04:11 AM
Interesting stuff. Can't wait for the next "installment".
Posted By: RAMM
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/21/12 04:42 PM
This will be fun. Thankyou for taking the time to do this. I loved that cam back in the day. What RPM are you starting the pulls at? J.Rob
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/21/12 05:31 PM
I am pulling it down to 2000 and the torque is good right out of the gate. I need to adjust the capacity valve and start a little lower.
I would like to at least start low enough to see where the torque starts to climb. Basically 350 lbs-ft from 2-4000 rpm with little variance.
Keith
Posted By: HotRodDave
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/22/12 01:10 AM
What changes do you have in mind? I would be curious how a real manifold like a RPM would do on that combo
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/22/12 02:17 AM
Quote:
What changes do you have in mind? I would be curious how a real manifold like a RPM would do on that combo
Intakes,cams,headers carburetors,and whatever else I come up with. Doing some oil viscosity testing first.
Keith
Posted By: sshemi
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/22/12 07:23 AM
Windage tray?
Posted By: ademon
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/22/12 08:05 AM
i would love to see what happens with the pint over but with a windage tray added.
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/22/12 03:13 PM
Most likely will run a tray,and possibly some other oil system mods. Will be interesting to see if it does much with a relatively low rpm engine.
Keith
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/27/12 02:00 AM
Did a little oil testing today, I started out with Rotella conventional15/40. Consistently made 360 lbs-ft and 305 hp.
I then switched to Rotella synthetic 5/40 oil and ran it at the same oil and coolant temps. Consistently made 366 lbs-ft and 309 hp.
I also adjusted the dyno water brake to allow me to pull the engine down to a lower rpm.
At 1500 rpm,it makes 305 tq and dips to 290 at 1800, then rises quickly to hit 355 by 2200 rpm.
I plan on doing more oil testing at a later date but need to work on some testing for an article so it may be a couple weeks.
Keith
Posted By: Rapid340
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/27/12 03:31 AM
Thanks for the data.
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/27/12 05:03 AM
Quote:
i would love to see what happens with the pint over but with a windage tray added.
The smallblock REALLY needs a crank scraper by it`s design and crank location in the block. 
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/27/12 05:27 AM
Quote:
Thanks for the data.
Glad to share,hopefully some things I share will help somebody.
As far as trays are concerned,I have a couple designs and ideas to try eventually.
Keith 
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/27/12 05:48 AM
I`ve read anywhere from 10-30+ hp w/a tray and good pan. Cool thing is you get to play with this stuff and see what your results are..............have fun.
Posted By: Rapid340
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/27/12 03:43 PM
Effects of pans, scrapers and trays will be different on dyno than on the track.
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/27/12 05:09 PM
Maybe so but you can`t tell me the small block won`t pick up at the track w/good oil and windage controll...........that`s what the tray was designed for....Racing not dynoing..........
Posted By: Rapid340
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/27/12 05:30 PM
Quote:
Maybe so but you can`t tell me the small block won`t pick up at the track w/good oil and windage controll
My point: measuring the effects of some oil control mods may be hard to see on the dyno but very effective under the dynamics of 1/4 mile racing.
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/27/12 05:32 PM
Since I have already seen windage problems on this engine,I have no doubts we can see results on the dyno. The problem will only be worse at the track.
Most testing that ever shows improvement on the dyno ends up tested at the track later. But who is going to pull their pan and swap trays for back to back track testing on the same day?
Keith
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/27/12 05:32 PM
Maybe but didn`t you read his results of TOO much oil?
Posted By: dannysbee
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/27/12 05:40 PM
I have seen airation problems in very mild small block combos.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/27/12 07:25 PM
Quote:
Since I have already seen windage problems on this engine,I have no doubts we can see results on the dyno. The problem will only be worse at the track.
Most testing that ever shows improvement on the dyno ends up tested at the track later. But who is going to pull their pan and swap trays for back to back track testing on the same day?
Keith
I don't even like changing jets at the track.
Posted By: Seth_Jones
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/27/12 09:54 PM
So as a rule does everybody at leat run the factory windage tray?
Posted By: skrews
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/27/12 10:31 PM
always wanted to try adding a few rows of scraping louvers to a stock tray, sorta like the Milodon tray
Posted By: fasteddie
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/28/12 02:59 AM
A few years ago when I built the current motor the concensus was to run no tray but a deep 8 qt. pan with only 5 qts in it. I would like to see that tested.
Posted By: Brian Hafliger
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 11/28/12 08:32 AM
Quote:
A few years ago when I built the current motor the concensus was to run no tray but a deep 8 qt. pan with only 5 qts in it. I would like to see that tested.
Exactly...most common problem is overfilling a pan.
First you have to pour the pan and measure how much water it will hold up to the top of the sump. Then add 1Qt for the engine system and filter and 1/2Qt to keep the level consistent while running.
Most guys who run a 7Qt pan end up with 8Qts of oil in the engine and nothing will hurt power and bearings quicker!!
Windage trays that are bolted to the main caps and not in the pan hold too much oil too close to the crank allowing the crankshaft to pull the oil back up on it instead of allowing it to flow into the sump.
So if this happens on the dyno, you can bet it's gonna happen much worse on a drag strip!
Brian
Posted By: dogdays
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 12/03/12 06:42 PM
Mu Mercedes 2.8 six has a cast aluminum oil pan with scraper fingers cast into the bottom of the pan. They also are turned to direct the scraped-off oil into the sump. This is a short stroke engine and there must have been a reason they went to all the trouble...
R.
Posted By: aspenrt360
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 12/17/12 02:59 AM
anything new to report?
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 12/17/12 03:10 AM
Actually,quite a few things.
I have been testing on this engine at least 3 or 4 days a week testing multiple things. I need to go in for a total shoulder replacement surgery in a couple weeks. My goal is to get all my testing done beforehand so I can write a couple articles and update you guys while I recover.
I will tell you now that it's at 365 hp and 402 lbs-ft with a cam and intake change.
The oil testing showed small gains with every drop in viscosity but had minimal oil pressure drop even down to 5-20.
Ill try to update things a little better when I can.
Keith
Posted By: aspenrt360
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 12/17/12 08:24 PM
thanks a lot for the reply i am going to follow this thread it looks to be interesting.
good luck with your shoulder!
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 12/17/12 08:42 PM
Good luck with the Surgery, Keith!
Oil windage to me
seems a lot less like a power adder compared to years past when oil was 40 and 50 weight, even todays race oils are a lot thinner and if you keep the foaming down it seems harder to find the measurable gains we used to see in decades past. Not saying it's not worth persuing but the big WOW type gains (or loss reductions) seem harder to come by. Surfactants have come a long way...all the way down the driveline too.
I'd like to find somebody to deepen and baffle a 318 truck pan for me and extand the pick-up the equal amount, since I can run one on my bracket toy, the advantages of a rear sump seem like a slam-dunk for drag racing.
Posted By: Paul_Fancsali
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 12/17/12 08:58 PM
Just a thought.The 15wt 40wt being a diesel base oil were not really intended for higher RPM and possibility of foaming. Lesson learned by me I will use any oil depending on temp and weather conditions, but curious how well it pulls with 5-20 or the 5-30. Valvoline makes a 10wt 30wt racing oil that seems to do the trick My 10 cents
Posted By: Triple Threat
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 12/17/12 11:03 PM
Quote:
Just a thought.The 15wt 40wt being a diesel base oil were not really intended for higher RPM and possibility of foaming. =
I know a guy with a 900" Sonny's engine. The car goes well into the 6's. They told him to run Rotella in it, so he does. 
Posted By: Locomotion
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 12/18/12 02:12 PM
Quote:
I'd like to find somebody to deepen and baffle a 318 truck pan for me and extand the pick-up the equal amount, since I can run one on my bracket toy, the advantages of a rear sump seem like a slam-dunk for drag racing.
Milodon has a deep, rear sump truck pan for 318/340 applications.
Milodon 30980 318 truck pan
I'm sure there are others available if the Milodon is too deep.
Related to the original thread topic, I've been using 5w-20 Amsoil Dominator synthetic oil with a scraper on my 360 and have been very happy. I've even seen changes in idle speed when switching from thicker conventional oils used for break-in to the 5w-20. From straight 30w or 40w, it was obvious. From 15w-40, I believe it was slight.
Posted By: 65signet
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 12/18/12 11:27 PM
Posted By: cudadoug
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 12/25/12 12:42 AM
What 65 said above...
Posted By: sixpackbee
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 12/25/12 05:24 AM
Quote:
But who is going to pull their pan and swap trays for back to back track testing on the same day?
Class racers
Posted By: Duner
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 12/26/12 04:40 AM
I'm watching this thread for ideas...
My non-race truck engine has seen 7,000+ rpms all too many times on 15/40 Rotella without any issues ever. No windage tray or scrapers - just the factory Dakota pan. I've often wondered if lighter oil would yield performance benefits - but have been hesitant to change or try a lighter oil since it's been so trouble free.
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/15/13 08:37 PM
Lets see if these attachments will show up,.......
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/15/13 08:40 PM
Last one was horsepower here is torque,.....
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/15/13 08:43 PM
In graph form,sorry the pictures aren't the best. I'm a one armed photographer for a while yet,.......
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/15/13 08:52 PM
These tests were just basic store shelf Valvoline . I used 10w40 10w30 and 05w20. Each was run with 160 degree coolant and 190 degree oil temps +/- 2 degrees throughout the pulls.
A few things are different on this engine from the first tests I talked about.
Keith
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/15/13 08:52 PM
Is that 15W40 vs 5W/30?
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/15/13 11:19 PM
Hey,Bobby!
You must have been typing at the same time as me. I posted right above yours ,there are three tests there. One is pretty hard to see on the graph. I tried to make the file names self explanatory ( 10w40oil) etc.
Keith
Posted By: davenc
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/16/13 04:24 AM
It is a little hard for me to read from the photos but it appears the 10W30 outperforms below the torque peak, and the 0W20 outperforms above the torque peak. It makes sense to me that the lighter oil does better at high revs. Any thoughts on the 10W30 results at lower RPM?
Posted By: aspenrt360
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/16/13 08:30 PM
glad you are back and able to post!
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/16/13 08:57 PM
Thanks!
davenrc,
I would take the rel low rpm stuff and ignore it. Most dyno operators don't bother starting tests below 3-3500 rpm. I do with these street engines because there is a lot to be learned below that point.
I have to run extra water through a valve on the back of the dyno to do it and the adjustment can be sensitive .
It probably vibrated and moved a little.
I have since these tests figured out a way to lock the setting in while testing a few camshafts in this engine between 1800-5800 rpm.
Keith
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/16/13 09:05 PM
Keith,
EXACTLY how much oil are you putting in the motor?
I run a stock truck pan on my 414 with exactly 5 1/2 quarts w/filter and it clears the rods/crank. I would actually prefer to modify this pan to be deeper before the sump with just a screen/baffle, very simple to fab but I can't find anyone local I trust to do it for me, probably wind up doing the Milodon. I have no cross-member below the block so it's wide open. The way the motor is set inthe Rocky my center link actually passes across the gap between the front of the block/pan and the harmonic balancer
I ALWAYS prefer a rear sump pan for drag racing (so long as the chassis/steering linkage will accomodate one, no matter how good or deep the front sump design may be.
Posted By: emarine01
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/16/13 09:19 PM
The way the motor is set inthe Rocky my center link actually passes across the gap between the front of the block/pan and the harmonic balancer
... Thats where the front drive axle goes
....
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/16/13 09:29 PM
Well the front axle used to go there
You can see the center link in the pic I think, the horizonal bar below it I added to keep the lower control arm pivot points from spreading apart when the wheelie is over
Posted By: Winchester 73
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/17/13 08:00 AM
Quote:
i would love to see what happens with the pint over but with a windage tray added.
i think its kind of a moot point considering data from a stationary engine on a dyno is different from a motor moving and the oil sloshing up into the crank.
Posted By: Winchester 73
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/17/13 08:13 AM
intrested in testing a set of old school iorn adjustable rockers for free?i got pushrods too.you pay shipping from wa state?
been trying to get rid of these damn things forever
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/17/13 01:31 PM
Slosh and windage both cause issues. Builders have tested trays and baffles for years on dynos with good results
Anyway ,I have been using 5 1/2 quarts with the filter. That is right at the add line on this dipstick .
I do plan on testing a factory tray and a design of my own later,I have heard that tray ad scraper design can be very humbling .
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/17/13 01:36 PM
Winchester73, I am interested in your rocker arms,I have looked at some on here but have not pulled the trigger .
I have a couple of small solid lifter cams I want to try in this later. I'll be in touch.
Keith
Posted By: Duner
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/17/13 04:14 PM
Obviously it's your testing and about what you want to test...
but I'm still curious about Rotella 15/40 vs lightweight oils. I've had great luck with keeping my junk together while running it - but wonder how much HP I am leaving on the table as well, or really whether it even needs this heavy weight of oil. Mine isn't a race car or even close to one - but it does get put thru it's paces once in a while.
Posted By: Winchester 73
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/23/13 02:40 AM
Quote:
Winchester73, I am interested in your rocker arms,I have looked at some on here but have not pulled the trigger .
I have a couple of small solid lifter cams I want to try in this later. I'll be in touch.
Keith
sorry it took so long to get back on-
dont dare buy any.REALLY no body wants mine.ive got a full set ov good rockers and a set minus one of some really hi po p-rods(7/16" thick and light)and a full set of stocker 273 rods.mix and match big on intake small on exhaust or get a replacement to fix the good set
ide try running these on a hyrd cam first-ive alwaye heard adj rockers make power even not on a solid cam becose the lash is better?
Posted By: cudadoug
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/23/13 02:46 AM
Quote: "I will tell you now that it's at 365 hp and 402 lbs-ft with a cam and intake change."
I'll bite: Change to WHAT cam and intake??
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/23/13 11:05 PM
Winchester73,
Several days ago I tried to p.m. you about buying your rocker arms. A notice popped up saying you were not accepting p.m.'s. I then emailed the address in your profile and never heard back??
I didn't expect them for free but I am interested.
Keith
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/23/13 11:10 PM
Quote:
Quote: "I will tell you now that it's at 365 hp and 402 lbs-ft with a cam and intake change."
I'll bite: Change to WHAT cam and intake??
I'm testing a few cams for Mopar Muscle in it. The one in it when I wrote that statement was a Comp Cams Thumper.
I also had a Torker2 intake on it then.
Keith
Posted By: Winchester 73
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 01/24/13 12:40 AM
sorry i never check my email,ill try to change my profile and get it to accept pms so i can get an address.gave up smallblocks.
Posted By: Dirt Slinger
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 02/03/13 07:03 PM
Any updates?
Very interested building a 9-1 500cfm 4412 engine per our rules (IMCA Northern Sport Mod). Like to see a intake comparison (stealth, victor jr. and X-celerater). Need to make about 400hp 360ci plus over bore NO head porting.
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 02/04/13 06:21 AM
I'll see if I have anything interesting I can post soon.
A lot of testing has been done,but most of it was for a couple of articles. I am sure I can come up with some tests to post though.
I started out with the M1 dual plane and switched to a Torker2. Surprisingly,it lost almost nothing down low but saw nice gains up top. I will post that up soon.
I have a couple other intakes to test too.
Keith
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 02/06/13 05:37 AM
Here is the same 360, Comp Cams Thumper .
The First line is with the M1 dual plane,second line is an Edelbrock Torker2. Horsepower comparison ,
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 02/06/13 05:42 AM
Torque comparison
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: 360 testing begins,.... - 02/06/13 05:45 AM
Graph. The Torker2 line is the lighter one.
Keith
