Moparts
Gen3 question 6.1
Posted By: Garry Owen
Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/18/12 09:48 PM
Looking for some recommendations on a cam. It's not going to be a track car, but I do want a healthy cam. Where I want to end up is a something that will kill on the street but still have some get up on the highway. I'm a cheap [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] so I've layed out some end items to base the cam question and ptv clearance. End product will be an airhammer cai, heartthrob catback, tranzformer, 180 thermostat, udp, and 11.1 compression and a cam with tune. So there's the basic "what cam?" question but also what's the best route with bumping up the compression? Thinner gasket or milling the heads, and the ptv issues that might show up with said cam. Thanks in advance
I asked this on lxforums but wound up getting the basic vendor call me answer. I really want to know what issues I would run into with milling the heads or thinner gasket to increase compression. I don't want to notch the pistons, due to budget. Is this even possible and could there be a cam to run in it?
Posted By: MattW
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/18/12 09:49 PM
Maybe ZIPPY will chime in
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/18/12 10:06 PM
HHP offers some BES designed grinds in stage 1,2 and 2r.
Posted By: Garry Owen
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/18/12 10:14 PM
Guess I should be more specific. With an off the shelf cam and milling/gasket sizing to 11:1 comp, are the valves going to smash into pistons? Or am I into a custom cam that might be a pita to tune. Or is it as easy as custom length pushrods?
Sorry, I havent cracked an engine open in about 10 years. I'm relearning
Posted By: FastmOp
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/20/12 01:35 AM
Call Comp and have them run your combo through there computer. They can tell you if it needs checked.
Posted By: AlexP
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/20/12 03:39 PM
DO NOT MILL 6.1 HEADS.
You only need to run something about a 219/223. That has taken LX's into the low 11's with heads
The 6.1 doesn't need the higher compression. You can't run bigger than about 223/227 without running into serious piston to valve clearance issues.
Posted By: Garry Owen
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/20/12 06:19 PM
Thanks Alex. So what's the thinnest gasket I can run and still run an off the shelf cam.
Posted By: AlexP
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/20/12 08:09 PM
I wouldn't worry about swapping gaskets. If you want compression, put a set of stock eagle heads on it. It will accept your stock intake and headers with no issue. That would be a 13:1 E85 sipping monster. Look up Buckeyeguy on lxforums for a guy running our stage 2 eagles on a stock 6.1 shortblock and running 11.70's with a tiny c am.
You could de-shim the stock MLS head gaskets if you really wanted compression, but truthfully with such small cam profiles on an already high CR motor....there is no need.
Plus, hemi's get into weird valve train noise when you change geometry. I wouldn't mess with any of it.
Port the heads, throw a cam in and be done.
Posted By: Garry Owen
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/20/12 08:32 PM
I had thought about going the e85 route but being moved around so much it becomes an availability issue. I've been looking at a couple cams and trying to wade through the hype vs. Real word gains. Since I'm moving back to Texas at the end of the month I'll see if I can make a few shop visits.
Posted By: AlexP
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/20/12 09:19 PM
I can help. I still have a ton of connections in the hemi market.
E85 still isn't readily available enough to daily drive on around here.
Posted By: WO23Coronet
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/20/12 09:51 PM
Quote:
DO NOT MILL 6.1 HEADS.
You only need to run something about a 219/223. That has taken LX's into the low 11's with heads
The 6.1 doesn't need the higher compression. You can't run bigger than about 223/227 without running into serious piston to valve clearance issues.
When u day not to mill 6.1 heads is it because the decks are to thin? Or does it take away to much piston to valve clearance? Also, why does the Gen III get noisy valve train if you mess with the geometry? Sorry for the rapid fire questions just trying to learn about these engines
Posted By: AlexP
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/20/12 10:00 PM
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Quote:
DO NOT MILL 6.1 HEADS.
You only need to run something about a 219/223. That has taken LX's into the low 11's with heads
The 6.1 doesn't need the higher compression. You can't run bigger than about 223/227 without running into serious piston to valve clearance issues.
When u day not to mill 6.1 heads is it because the decks are to thin? Or does it take away to much piston to valve clearance? Also, why does the Gen III get noisy valve train if you mess with the geometry? Sorry for the rapid fire questions just trying to learn about these engines
1. 6.1 heads are expensive and not getting any cheaper. No reason to cut them. There is plenty of room and material to tailor compression in there without cutting the deck.
2. They aren't thin. Only the 5.7 eagle is thin in a few spots, but nothing really critical.
3. Most all hemi cams are ground on a 6.1 base circle. To compensate, a 5.7 block with a 6.1 cam would use 6.1 pushrods as a general rule of thumb to prevent uncessesary lifter movement.
Posted By: Garry Owen
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/20/12 11:31 PM
Once I get settled in, I'll get in touch with you. Still trying to dig through the wheat and chaff over on lxforums about the best performing cam.
Posted By: AlexP
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/20/12 11:34 PM
All of the vendors are using the same lobes for their cams.
A 214/218 from Inertia, HHP, PWR and any number of others will all make the same HP within 5-10%.
After working for a major Hemi Vendor for years, I can say these facts without a doubt in my mind.
Finding a good tuner is where your time should be spent.
Posted By: Garry Owen
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/20/12 11:36 PM
Tracking. I have a few tuners in mind right now.
Posted By: AlexP
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/20/12 11:41 PM
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Tracking. I have a few tuners in mind right now.
Jerseyboy, Hemituner and lafrad all come to mind as really good tuners.
Posted By: Garry Owen
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/21/12 12:30 AM
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Tracking. I have a few tuners in mind right now.
Jerseyboy, Hemituner and lafrad all come to mind as really good tuners.
Those and I heard Johan is pretty decent.
Posted By: Moparmal
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/21/12 03:24 AM
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Tracking. I have a few tuners in mind right now.
Jerseyboy, Hemituner and lafrad all come to mind as really good tuners.
Just wanted to say great info - and kudos for helping the OP out...I have been reading the "run around" he was getting on the other forum.
Posted By: Garry Owen
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/21/12 04:26 AM
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Quote:
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Tracking. I have a few tuners in mind right now.
Jerseyboy, Hemituner and lafrad all come to mind as really good tuners.
Just wanted to say great info - and kudos for helping the OP out...I have been reading the "run around" he was getting on the other forum.
Well, I guess some message boards aren't for messaging.If I wanted to just call vendors I would have to start with. I was trying to reach out to the end user or someone who had tried something similar. I know there's some good guys over and some that are on both boards, that's why I threw out the question both places. Other than buying parts, I think I'll stick with moparts for answers.
Posted By: Lightning
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/22/12 06:27 PM
I've got a stupid question about the Gen 3's: How come they don't seem to need the bigger duration like the older engine's do?
Posted By: patrick
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/23/12 01:25 AM
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I've got a stupid question about the Gen 3's: How come they don't seem to need the bigger duration like the older engine's do?
better port design....if you have a head that flows 320cfm with good port velocity and strong low lift flow, you don't need nearly as big of a cam as you do if you have a head that flows 220....
Posted By: WO23Coronet
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/23/12 03:53 AM
Plus I think I read that once duration gets too high, the stock Gen III engines run into piston to valve clearance issues, someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's an issue as well
Posted By: Moparmal
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/24/12 11:47 PM
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Plus I think I read that once duration gets too high, the stock Gen III engines run into piston to valve clearance issues, someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's an issue as well
Spot on - 228 Intake is about the limit with the 6.1
The Arrington ST3-A runs this intake duration and AJ from that company confirmed to me that P-V was pretty tight but they get away with it.
But back to the duration question - these are Hyd roller profiles...so its apples and oranges comparing to the old LA flat tappet. 
Posted By: AlexP
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/26/12 09:43 PM
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Plus I think I read that once duration gets too high, the stock Gen III engines run into piston to valve clearance issues, someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's an issue as well
Spot on - 228 Intake is about the limit with the 6.1
The Arrington ST3-A runs this intake duration and AJ from that company confirmed to me that P-V was pretty tight but they get away with it.
But back to the duration question - these are Hyd roller profiles...so its apples and oranges comparing to the old LA flat tappet.
This.
Posted By: Garry Owen
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/26/12 09:55 PM
Alex, are you still in standing with Franks?
Posted By: AlexP
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/26/12 10:55 PM
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Alex, are you still in standing with Franks?
On a business level, no. Personally, yes. 
I can help you either way.
Posted By: Garry Owen
Re: Gen3 question 6.1 - 11/26/12 11:09 PM
Just comparing cams, I know Fri had some pretty good cams.
So far I've got a couple in mind.
Comp 268
Spartan Max
Arrington st3a
And something comparable in a Fri.