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Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411

Posted By: 1Fryedfish

Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/03/12 12:17 AM

Hey guys i am looking to get some info on timing and tuning my 440-4bbl. Its a mildly rebuilt 440 with some minor add ons. I am getting ready to fire it up and want to get an idea of what to do since i dont really know.

First...

What should my plugs be gapped at?

As far as timing, what should i look for. What do i need to disconnect as far as vacumn lines?


Then as far as tuning the 4bbl, how do it do this. The more detailed the better this is my first attempt...

Thanks!
Posted By: RodStRace

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/03/12 01:02 AM

I would suggest having an old hand help you out on this, since it's your first go-round and a second set of eyes is always helpful. I could type a long story as I'm sure most here could, but This is not the time to have printed instructions in one hand and the ignition key in the other...
Posted By: 1Fryedfish

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/03/12 10:14 PM

I am just looking for some basic info. If you could just give me some pointers that would be great!
Posted By: RodStRace

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/03/12 10:37 PM

non-EI gap is .035" stock EI is happier with .038"
Point gap is ~.018" Dwell is 30 degrees
Timing can be dead timed at spec or about 8-10 BTDC so it runs a little cooler while breaking in. you do not want retarded timing.
Ensure there are no electrical issues and no vacuum leaks. Set base idle at about 1/2 to turn in from touching for a start. A flat tappet cam requires break-in, so this is something to adjust ASAP. Have the screwdriver handy. Idle mixture will not affect break-in much, I prefer to run a bit rich rather than lean. I'd go 1.5 -2 turns out on the mixture screws.

Have a helper nearby with a hose and an extinguisher. Have you timing light connected and ready. You want 30-35 during the break in @ 2500 RPM. Also have a tach and make sure the oil pressure and coolant temp gauges work.

Once running, you want to keep an eye on the underside for leaks, the pressure and temp, the RPM, the carb, any and all smoke sources, the belts and accessories, listen for any noises, ensure the thermostat opens and the coolant level doesn't drop, and vary the RPM.
Posted By: RodStRace

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/03/12 10:50 PM

Oh, and if it catches fire, it's your fault.
If it pukes oil out and welds itself together, it's your fault.
If there is a big air bubble in the cooling system and it overheats and/or scalds you, it's your fault.
If you have the adjustments off and it's not running right it could hurt itself, it's your fault.
If you don't have all this stuff right and have to keep shutting it off and restarting, it's your fault.
If you left anything flammable where operation could ignite it, it's your fault.
If the cam goes flat during break in, it's your fault.
If you don't know how to set up firing order and dead time it, then crank it for long periods of time before it starts and runs, it's your fault.

All of these can cause expensive damage to the engine or engine and the car.
If you haven't done all this stuff on a running engine before, you will skip or miss something and not be sure how to do it all.

All of us had that first engine fire up. Most of us got through it, either due to help, smarts, blind luck or all three. Some of us didn't. That is an expensive lesson.
Posted By: Dodgeguy101

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/04/12 01:45 AM

Quote:

Oh, and if it catches fire, it's your fault.
If it pukes oil out and welds itself together, it's your fault.
If there is a big air bubble in the cooling system and it overheats and/or scalds you, it's your fault.
If you have the adjustments off and it's not running right it could hurt itself, it's your fault.
If you don't have all this stuff right and have to keep shutting it off and restarting, it's your fault.
If you left anything flammable where operation could ignite it, it's your fault.
If the cam goes flat during break in, it's your fault.
If you don't know how to set up firing order and dead time it, then crank it for long periods of time before it starts and runs, it's your fault.

All of these can cause expensive damage to the engine or engine and the car.
If you haven't done all this stuff on a running engine before, you will skip or miss something and not be sure how to do it all.

All of us had that first engine fire up. Most of us got through it, either due to help, smarts, blind luck or all three. Some of us didn't. That is an expensive lesson.




AMEN
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/04/12 04:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Oh, and if it catches fire, it's your fault.
If it pukes oil out and welds itself together, it's your fault.
If there is a big air bubble in the cooling system and it overheats and/or scalds you, it's your fault.
If you have the adjustments off and it's not running right it could hurt itself, it's your fault.
If you don't have all this stuff right and have to keep shutting it off and restarting, it's your fault.
If you left anything flammable where operation could ignite it, it's your fault.
If the cam goes flat during break in, it's your fault.
If you don't know how to set up firing order and dead time it, then crank it for long periods of time before it starts and runs, it's your fault.

All of these can cause expensive damage to the engine or engine and the car.
If you haven't done all this stuff on a running engine before, you will skip or miss something and not be sure how to do it all.

All of us had that first engine fire up. Most of us got through it, either due to help, smarts, blind luck or all three. Some of us didn't. That is an expensive lesson.




AMEN

I agree to a point but YOU can make it happen if absolutely necessary...........who taught the first guy to do something he never tried before. This is more like a scare tactic stating there`s NO WAY you can make this happen. Have someone there if possble and follow those steps and you should be fine but at least make sure they have an understanding of how a "first fire up" works and what to look for.
Posted By: 1Fryedfish

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/04/12 04:19 PM

Thanks for the pointers and explanations. Its much appriciated. The motor was broken in prior and ran for awhile before the guy upgraded to a bigger motor. I just got it and wanted a rough idea of where to start.

It fired right up on the first crank and i had no leaks of any kind and got it sounding pretty decent to my ears, and after timing its at 12*btc. The only thing that i noticed is a white haze coming from the exhaust. Running rich possibly? as far as the carb ajustments going the idle screw is adjust by my mixture screws are having no effect all the way in or out? whats your thought on that?
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/04/12 05:09 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the pointers and explanations. Its much appriciated. The motor was broken in prior and ran for awhile before the guy upgraded to a bigger motor. I just got it and wanted a rough idea of where to start.

It fired right up on the first crank and i had no leaks of any kind and got it sounding pretty decent to my ears, and after timing its at 12*btc. The only thing that i noticed is a white haze coming from the exhaust. Running rich possibly? as far as the carb ajustments going the idle screw is adjust by my mixture screws are having no effect all the way in or out? whats your thought on that?

This changes everything..............WAY easier at this point as long as the motor is sound, you`re just looking at some "tweeks" to fine tune it. Haze out the ex. could be a few things and base timing looks ok but total is where it`s at and I`d say to safely set it at 35 total and go from there. As for the carb, get it warm and adj. the idle first then the mixture screws for the best/cleanest idle and driving. Good luck............you can do this........
Posted By: RobX4406

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/04/12 05:35 PM

Get the initial timing sorted out so you can properly tune the carb. If the mix screws aren't changing anything, you have a problem.

If it's got any kind of cam in it, 12 degrees is likely not enough for it to run cleanly.
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/04/12 06:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Oh, and if it catches fire, it's your fault.
If it pukes oil out and welds itself together, it's your fault.
If there is a big air bubble in the cooling system and it overheats and/or scalds you, it's your fault.
If you have the adjustments off and it's not running right it could hurt itself, it's your fault.
If you don't have all this stuff right and have to keep shutting it off and restarting, it's your fault.
If you left anything flammable where operation could ignite it, it's your fault.
If the cam goes flat during break in, it's your fault.
If you don't know how to set up firing order and dead time it, then crank it for long periods of time before it starts and runs, it's your fault.

All of these can cause expensive damage to the engine or engine and the car.
If you haven't done all this stuff on a running engine before, you will skip or miss something and not be sure how to do it all.

All of us had that first engine fire up. Most of us got through it, either due to help, smarts, blind luck or all three. Some of us didn't. That is an expensive lesson.




AMEN

Man This is some scary stuff
Posted By: 1Fryedfish

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/04/12 06:54 PM

OK ill see what i can come up with trying that. I know its got a cam, not sure i think it was the purple shaft one .509 with the lifters. If thats any kind of help...
Posted By: RobX4406

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/04/12 07:22 PM

if it's a 509, at least 20 degrees initial!

Limit mechanical so the total isn't out of range.
Posted By: RodStRace

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/04/12 09:56 PM

Glad to hear it went well, and a said, a run in motor bolted is a whole lot different!

Sorry for the but I'd rather anyone get a bit of "what if" rather than blindly ruin an engine that probably cost every penny they had.

What RPM is it idling at? When idling, look down the carb. Is there any fuel dribbling down the boosters?
Posted By: 1Fryedfish

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/04/12 10:15 PM

Thanks for the input guys i will be trying these things tomorrow and updating you. I closed up shop for the day, had to do a little paint work in the trunk...
Posted By: RobX4406

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/05/12 12:12 AM

Next time you can blow up a mopar running 20* of initial timing, please let me know. If it starts with 20* without killing the starter... DO IT!

Here's another that is STRAIGHT FROM MSD as they've finally seen the light. Put as much initial timing on the engine as the starter can handle.

See bottom of page 2...

http://www.msdignition.com/uploadedFiles/MSDIgnitioncom/Products/distributors/8386_instructions.pdf

Even stock 318's run like junk at idle with 8-10 BTDC... just the way it is. I don't think any 318's I have/had run less than 14 initial.

This engine has a cam in it, needs more initial. 20 initial and 16 mechanical will run one heck of a lot better than 10 initial and 26 mechanical... but what do I know! LOL

He has no control over the idle mixture... what's that tell you? If floats are set correctly and no dripping boosters, my guess, the throttle plates are too far open, getting into the transfer slot. Common problem with the total timing/not enough initial, gas out the neighborhood crew because the car runs like junk at idle.
Posted By: topbrent

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/05/12 08:42 AM

Yup, that .509 will want as much initial as you can throw at it. Also, if you have a loose enough converter to actually make that cam happy you will want to have the total advance come in fast as well.

If you are using a old or new electronic Mopar distributor, shorten the advance slots in the distributor and crank up the initial to 18°-20°. The FBO advance limiter plate kit from FBO works great and is very easy to use. http://www.4secondsflat.com/Ignition.html

The reason for restricting total timing is if you try and set the initial timing at a happy 18°-20°, when all of the mechanical advance kicks in with its additional 26° you will end up with 44°-46° of total timing and you will/could rattle the engine to death with detonation. The only way to fix this is to weld the slots, or install the plate kit from FBO.

Posted By: 1Fryedfish

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/05/12 01:41 PM

Thanks guys, i will try it out, i am using an msd pro billet. Will i need to do any work to it on the inside of the distributor as i know you can adjust the advance with that...
Posted By: RobX4406

Re: Timing and Tuning For Dummies...Give me the 411 - 08/05/12 04:15 PM

Read the instructions for the distributor. What you need to do is laid out pretty clearly.
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