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Stroker or forced induction?

Posted By: herkamer

Stroker or forced induction? - 07/19/12 07:54 PM

Thinking about how I can hop up my Dakota. Right now it's a stock 120k mile 360 with Edelbrock tubular headers and a full 3" exhaust. Runs good for what it is, but at 5200' it's lacking what I think it could do. I have an SCT tuner at my disposal, but no tunes to load. I had planned on going with their Pro-Tuner package so I can tune myself without relying on a dealer to build tunes.

Been pondering a single or twin turbo system, but also have recently been thinking about going with a 408/426 SB setup instead. Still has to pass the communist emissions test here. Luckily I can fast pass by hitting the roadside stations.

What say you? Displacement or forced induction and why.
Posted By: DragDart360

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/19/12 08:07 PM

At your alt. I would consider a stroker with a supercharger. I don't care for turbos in a street combo. Would also make it easier to pass emissions.
Posted By: Triple Threat

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/19/12 08:25 PM

Turbo(s) without a doubt. And I have a stroker.
Posted By: bigsbigelow

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/19/12 08:34 PM

Pick one to start with and then build with future upgrades in mind, example 1: build stroker now with low or lowish comp so you can turbo later example 2: turbo now but with a turbo large enough to support a stroker bottom end for a future upgrade.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/19/12 09:52 PM

Its gonna cost either way you go but myself I would
go turbo due to it not robbing HP to drive a blower...
strokers are nice and simple but it'll NEVER make the
power a pressurized engine will
Posted By: mshred

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/19/12 09:54 PM

Quote:

Turbo(s) without a doubt. And I have a stroker.



This!

This is what I should have done with my 360 last year when I bent a valve...it already had the compression for it, coulda strapped on a turbo, made gobs of power with a safe tune, and ran a streetable gear to cruise the thing anywhere.

Sure those stock cast pistons aren't the best, but they will work for now at lower boost levels- when you want more, yank it and do the bottom end, but even at lower boost levels you should be fine and still have a TON of fun

thats my
Posted By: 6bblFLASH

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/19/12 10:17 PM

Once you have boost,,,,you`ll want MORE

My way of looking at adding a blower or turbo is:
you can unbolt the parts and put them on another engine or even car.
Waste an engine,sell the car swap all the hardware and go.
Does`nt take much boost to make a BIG difference.
I`m only seeing 5-lbs,man what a performance gain. Well over a second in a heavy car and a stock motor.

Attached picture 7299584-DSC00004.JPG
Posted By: Dan Halen

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/19/12 10:24 PM

Boost is best.

Strokers are harder on the bottom end, especially on small blocks.

A well planned turbo set up will live forever and make more power

than you expect.

Check out STS Turbos for some ideas.
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/19/12 11:11 PM

Quote:

Thinking about how I can hop up my Dakota. Right now it's a stock 120k mile 360 with Edelbrock tubular headers and a full 3" exhaust. Runs good for what it is, but at 5200' it's lacking what I think it could do. I have an SCT tuner at my disposal, but no tunes to load. I had planned on going with their Pro-Tuner package so I can tune myself without relying on a dealer to build tunes.

Been pondering a single or twin turbo system, but also have recently been thinking about going with a 408/426 SB setup instead. Still has to pass the communist emissions test here. Luckily I can fast pass by hitting the roadside stations.

What say you? Displacement or forced induction and why.

Both - so you can keep up with me
Posted By: bigtimeauto

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/20/12 12:50 AM

biggest bore you can get and just enough stroke, then the blower. Turbos are ok but nothing is like the instant boost of a blower.
Posted By: JackGTX440

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/20/12 03:15 AM

Quote:

Pick one to start with and then build with future upgrades in mind, example 1: build stroker now with low or lowish comp so you can turbo later example 2: turbo now but with a turbo large enough to support a stroker bottom end for a future upgrade.



Never in a million years would you need to stroke it with the turbo. For 800ish and less horsepower, more cubes would just make turbo selection harder. For 400 cubes, you'd want probably at least a 94mm turbine. This puts you in the 1000+ hp turbo range.
Posted By: bigsbigelow

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/20/12 01:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Pick one to start with and then build with future upgrades in mind, example 1: build stroker now with low or lowish comp so you can turbo later example 2: turbo now but with a turbo large enough to support a stroker bottom end for a future upgrade.



Never in a million years would you need to stroke it with the turbo. For 800ish and less horsepower, more cubes would just make turbo selection harder. For 400 cubes, you'd want probably at least a 94mm turbine. This puts you in the 1000+ hp turbo range.



I am just throwing ideas out there. No need to single some one out just to shoot down their two cents. If I wanted to be put down I would just have a conversation with the "Vice Pres" at my job. What if the OP eventually wants 1,000 hp?
Posted By: ScatPackNick

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/20/12 01:38 PM

boost it


Posted By: Crizila

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/20/12 02:26 PM

Quote:

Thinking about how I can hop up my Dakota. Right now it's a stock 120k mile 360 with Edelbrock tubular headers and a full 3" exhaust. Runs good for what it is, but at 5200' it's lacking what I think it could do. I have an SCT tuner at my disposal, but no tunes to load. I had planned on going with their Pro-Tuner package so I can tune myself without relying on a dealer to build tunes.

Been pondering a single or twin turbo system, but also have recently been thinking about going with a 408/426 SB setup instead. Still has to pass the communist emissions test here. Luckily I can fast pass by hitting the roadside stations.

What say you? Displacement or forced induction and why.

You really need to start out with a plan ( blank sheet of paper) before you can answer your questions. First you need to look at what you want in the end - drag car, street car, combo? How much $ do you have to spend? How much HP do you want to make? How fast do you want to go? Cost of "supporting cast" ( rollbar, drivetrain, etc). Reliability / maintenance fits in there also. Answering some of those questions will lead you to YOUR correct path. BTW, there are considerable foundation differences between building a NA motor and a blown motor, so that should be an up-front decision. Don't break the bank and have fun
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/20/12 02:37 PM

I put a twin screw on a 4.6 Mustang, 7 psi. All I can say is Wow! Just like the motor went from 281 to 425 cubes. Torque is right there, starting at 2,000 rpm where the bypass shuts. Your converter will also stall a bit higher, negating the need for a different one. I went to the track and ran a 12.42 on STOCK rubber and everything else, at 115mph. Gained 15 mph and 1 second ET. With slicks the car would probably run very high elevens on a good day.
Your truck would show the same percent gain with 7 psi.
Given your altitude, you could also get more aggressive with boost. Just don't go over a recommended amount.
Posted By: herkamer

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/20/12 03:06 PM

This is all part of the planning. Wanted to feel out what others have done. I have a turbo car so I know the potential. I'm also working on a 500" stroker for my convertible so I will have both to compare even though this would more of an apples/oranges comparision.

It's quite obvious that it can go way overboard on either type of build with parts. Cams, heads, intakes, etc etc. I've been leaning turbo for quite awhile because of a couple things:
1. Parts can be sourced relatively cheaply.
2. You can run boost on a stock engine and still maintain reliability. Add parts as needed.
3. Once installed you can dial it up to bigger power levels provided the hardware will support it.

My goal is to have a fun street vehicle that will actually get out of it's own way. 500 horse would most definitely be fun and easily accomplished. And it realistically could be done on the cheap with used parts.
Posted By: Adobedude

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/20/12 03:27 PM

You'll need more than a stock Magnum 360 for any power adder, especially with 120K on the clock and looking for 500 hp at the crank. 500 RWHP is going to break stock parts that move.

I'd say build a forged 408 with M1 4bbl, 58 TB, Spintech mid length headers Eddy Heads etc... $$$

The SCT is going to be a big learning curve, not as user friendly as a standalone like a FAST XFI.
FYI, the 426 kit is for NA applications only.

My NA 408 Dakota runs 11.7s at 8600'...But it's strip only. I'll spray it into the 10s later this year, but the engine was built for it.

Check out the Dakota R/T forum for more info.
Posted By: 1Fast340

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/20/12 05:00 PM



build a reliable short block and just screw it
Posted By: JackGTX440

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/21/12 02:53 AM

Quote:

I am just throwing ideas out there. No need to single some one out just to shoot down their two cents. If I wanted to be put down I would just have a conversation with the "Vice Pres" at my job. What if the OP eventually wants 1,000 hp?



Not singling out, just trying to educate a little and help out the OP. He's not looking for 1000hp. He said he had to pass the communist emissions. If he stroked it, the turbo that would be an efficient, well matched turbo for those cubes would end up making power levels that will require all forged lower end, aftermarket block, billet main caps, etc... That is a lot of coin...

You could put together a kick ass 500 rwhp street turbo build using a lot of very much stock parts, purrs like a kitten and do it relatively easy and affordable. He already has the exhaust manifolds that most turbo small block guys use up to like 750hp (the hard part of the hot side is already done), and already has EFI.

If that were my engine, all I'd do is change cam, rods, pistons, ARP fasteners, 4150 style single plane EFI intake and throttle body, stainless valves, and possibly roller tip rockers. Could run stock manifolds with two used HX35's off of a Cummins. It would be a total sleeper street ripper, with a tall gear and tight convertor. Could also run something like an affordable MP70 single turbo.
Posted By: JackGTX440

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/21/12 02:56 AM

Quote:



build a reliable short block and just screw it



What blower is that? What did you do for an intake manifold? A twin screw would be another awesome choice, but would be more expensive that the turbo...
Posted By: 1Fast340

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/21/12 03:31 AM

Quote:

Quote:

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build a reliable short block and just screw it



What blower is that? What did you do for an intake manifold? A twin screw would be another awesome choice, but would be more expensive that the turbo...



its a lysholm 3.3 twinscrew:) the intakemanifold is a custom billet piece done by a local machineshop,not cheap at all and a cheaper solution would have been to make a adaptorplate to put on a low singleplane intakemanifold but i realy wanted it as low as it can possibly be to hide it under a low scoop. also using a low singleplane with a adaptorplate could create some trouble since the outlet of the blower is in the bottom of the front 1/3 of the case but im sure it could be solved. also indys modman intake could probably be used with a good adaptorplate

i realy hope its a good choice lots of time spent on this build, but the screw has some very good advantages compared to roots blowers and turbos have always seemed alitle harder to get to run just right
Posted By: JackGTX440

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/21/12 04:39 AM

Quote:


its a lysholm 3.3 twinscrew:) the intakemanifold is a custom billet piece done by a local machineshop,not cheap at all and a cheaper solution would have been to make a adaptorplate to put on a low singleplane intakemanifold but i realy wanted it as low as it can possibly be to hide it under a low scoop. also using a low singleplane with a adaptorplate could create some trouble since the outlet of the blower is in the bottom of the front 1/3 of the case but im sure it could be solved. also indys modman intake could probably be used with a good adaptorplate

i realy hope its a good choice lots of time spent on this build, but the screw has some very good advantages compared to roots blowers and turbos have always seemed alitle harder to get to run just right



It looked like the intake was billet. Very nice!
Posted By: racer_amx

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/21/12 03:32 PM

Im voting for turbos
Posted By: JackGTX440

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/21/12 04:03 PM

Agreed. He could have the performance of a ten second truck with the drivability of a 13 second truck.
Posted By: challengermike

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/21/12 09:15 PM

I say turbos. I just sold a turbo buick and i miss having something thats very mild to drive on the street and halls on the track.
Posted By: SLOW67

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/22/12 04:24 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Turbo(s) without a doubt. And I have a stroker.



This!

This is what I should have done with my 360 last year when I bent a valve...it already had the compression for it, coulda strapped on a turbo, made gobs of power with a safe tune, and ran a streetable gear to cruise the thing anywhere.

Sure those stock cast pistons aren't the best, but they will work for now at lower boost levels- when you want more, yank it and do the bottom end, but even at lower boost levels you should be fine and still have a TON of fun

thats my



Since you are already fuel injected I will more than agree with this. If you can do the fab work and are willing to run cheap chinese parts you can have a nice single setup dirt cheap. I've got $1300 in hard parts counting my fuel system (carb). I have gotten very lucky so far with a stock all cast bottom end. I've been as high as 18lbs on pump gas with 28 degrees of timing when my wastegate line blew off with no parts loss. I can't stress enough to match your turbine a/r, converter, and rear gear all up together or it will be a lazy turd (like mine) until it builds boost. Untuned and not reaching full throttle my car ran 87 mph in the 1/8th. Last week with alittle tuning I went 92 mph but my 60ft still sucks because the converter is wayyy too tight.
Posted By: Adobedude

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/22/12 01:55 PM

He is talking about a Dakota with the stock JTEC PCM...So adding any type of boost is going to be tricky using a SCT with the PRP package so he can do it himself.

Even the SCT tuners whom do email tunes have a problem with tunng these things for boost, but Chris at Performance Injection Equipment is getting it down...I'm getting my NA 408 tunes from him. Sean Powell is another good one to get tunes from...Goes by "Hemifever".

If he has someone local to him with a dyno and can tune his Dodge PCM, he should go that direction. here in ALB, NM. no one can tune my truck with an SCT, which is the Dakota R/T owner's only option other than a standalone. He go cheap if he has the knowledge and use a Megasquirt. But the tune is going to be critical with a stock bottom end.
Posted By: herkamer

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/22/12 06:03 PM

I'm about a 1/2 mile from both an engine and chassis dyno. I have been looking at some of the bigger Holset turbos or some of the Precision rebuilt units and have the ability to do all the fab work. I have Megasquirt experience, but prefer not to go with a standalone right now unless it's absolutely necessary. I know others have been doing well with the SCT and forced induction. Also with the Pro package, they do an online training class so that should help with the learning curve. I really don't care about the stock engine and would build something better if it blows. This is mostly a summer play toy.
Posted By: Adobedude

Re: Stroker or forced induction? - 07/22/12 07:44 PM

Then you should be good to go on the tuning end.

I have a FAST XFI I plan to put on ths winter also have complete carb set up, I'm all about NA and it's not legal for the street...sooooo.

All I really need is WOT.
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