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1st time on track little dissapointed

Posted By: T-bar

1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 02:50 AM

Hey all, i had my 70 Cuda out for the first time at an 1/8th mile track on the weekend and was a little disappointed on the results. I know this can be open ended question but can you give me some ideas on what i can do to get the times lower.
The best time was 7.57 at 92.98 mph and 60ft 1.72.
A few of the other runs were close to that area as well.
Now the combo is
496rb
10.5 compression
flat tappet .565" lift on both and .274 deg @ .50
eddy rpm performer heads with light porting (no flow numbers)
440 victor intake
1050 quick fuel carb 4150
converter stalls around 3500 (unsure)
727 full manual
3.91 diff gears
295/65r15 mickey thompson et's
So any thoughts?
Posted By: 69dart

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 02:58 AM

Needs 4.10 gear or more and about 5000 stall converter. Not ideal for street driving though.
Posted By: mopar400

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 03:07 AM

Congrat on getting to run your car! The 60ft seems a little slow. What is done to the suspension? What does the car weigh? I'm guessing you're giving up a good amount of time with the wrong torque converter (in the 60ft). Kevin
Posted By: T-bar

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 03:09 AM

Thanks for the reply, i don't really want to get lower gears but i was thinking of a 28" tall tyre would that get the gearing down enough? Was also trying to get a higher stall but don't want to buy new just yet because thinking of upgrading the cam.
Posted By: Von

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 03:13 AM

Unless you have alot of glass components....too much cam for a heavy car...

Not enough gear, converter or compression for that cam...

4.10s at a minimum, 5k flash at a minimum and IMO 11.0-11.5 comp.

4.10s and a quality 8inch WILL drive fine and dandy on the street....Although IMO with 500 cubes the gear isnt the deal breaker w 28 inch tire...with 30 inch tires 4.10s-4.30s.

Your combo (when right and if the heads are decent to good) should go 10s...
Posted By: moparmanjames

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 03:14 AM

Quote:

Thanks for the reply, i don't really want to get lower gears but i was thinking of a 28" tall tyre would that get the gearing down enough? Was also trying to get a higher stall but don't want to buy new just yet because thinking of upgrading the cam.



You might want to go with a little less duration at .050" and a tighter lobe separation, say 265* at .050" and a 106 to 108 lca advanced 4* to really provide some grunt for those gears and converter.
Posted By: T-bar

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 03:15 AM

Hay Kevin, yes it's been two years since i got the car and had a ball racing again as it's been about twenty years between runs. The car weighs 3630 with me in, standard springs that have been reset down, with kyb gas adjustable shocks on rear and standard shocks on the front. It launched fairly even and straight.
Posted By: T-bar

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 03:26 AM

I've had thoughts on pulling the heads have some more work done and bumping the compression up and changing to a roller cam in the future. So would a gear and convertor change bring the time down much? in it's current state.
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 03:31 AM

1) 60' is too slow ( gear and converter plus.....)
2) carb is too big
3) I dont think the cam is that big of a problem
( at this point, albeit a 496 could handle more cam, but you dont have a lot of compression, so there is a compromise going on there)

Work on 60' first, then the rest will come around. Your MPH indicates low 11's, but wont get there with that 60'

Make one change at a time. Dont overcam the heads, if they havent really been ported.

What LSA is the cam, and how is it installed?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 03:34 AM

What kind of distributor/ignition and curve do you have in it?

I've seen guys drop loads of money on engine, trans and a gear only to put a stock advance distributor in the hole.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 03:39 AM

Quote:

Hay Kevin, yes it's been two years since i got the car and had a ball racing again as it's been about twenty years between runs. The car weighs 3630 with me in, standard springs that have been reset down, with kyb gas adjustable shocks on rear and standard shocks on the front. It launched fairly even and straight.




I agree on the duration being big for you...get the front
loose so it will lift and transfer the weight.. that
will help your 60'(your probably spinning with a 1.72)
Posted By: cheapstreetdustr

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 03:39 AM

yes a gear will be easy and make a huge difference,
have you gotten alot of wheel spin? on that 1.76 launch?
its a heavy car but at the cubes your using...it should go faster for sure..
Posted By: T-bar

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 03:49 AM

The info of the internals of the motor are what the bloke i bought it off said it was so i can only go on this but the cam is degreed at
-3.0 and with 114lc thats all i got in that regards. The ignition is an electronic msd unit with 6a box and blaster 2 coil. I did have the car on a chassis dyno before i raced it and the a/f ratio was good but it did only manage 385 rwhp at it's best.
Posted By: mopar400

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 03:49 AM

Quote:

1) 60' is too slow ( gear and converter plus.....)
2) carb is too big
3) I dont think the cam is that big of a problem
( at this point, albeit a 496 could handle more cam, but you dont have a lot of compression, so there is a compromise going on there)

Work on 60' first, then the rest will come around. Your MPH indicates low 11's, but wont get there with that 60'

Make one change at a time. Dont overcam the heads, if they havent really been ported.

What LSA is the cam, and how is it installed?




I was thinking the same thoughts by comparing his times to my car. My car weighs the same and just has a mild 440 with 11:1 comp., iron 452 heads and a 509 purple shaft, 4.30 gears and 29.5 slicks. It would run 7.20's pretty consistant (best 6.99). I would think he would be making a good deal more power. His 1/8 MPH is pretty good. I think he should be doing atleast low 1.6's in the 60ft. I would do some suspension tweaking and maybe some 28" slicks to start.
Posted By: T-bar

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 03:53 AM

On the first run i did have a lot wheel spin so dropped the tyres down to 15lb and pretty much fixed the spin. If it did spin it would of being tiny. I haven't raced for so long i was still trying to get my self settled as well.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 04:11 AM

Quote:

The info of the internals of the motor are what the bloke i bought it off said it was so i can only go on this but the cam is degreed at
-3.0 and with 114lc thats all i got in that regards. The ignition is an electronic msd unit with 6a box and blaster 2 coil. I did have the car on a chassis dyno before i raced it and the a/f ratio was good but it did only manage 385 rwhp at it's best.




With the specs you said, that cam is for a blower engine...
you dont want a 114 LSA cam and with that duration
your cylinder pressure is WAY down... the piston is
up to far in the bore when the intake valve closes
Posted By: mopar400

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 04:21 AM

Quote:

The info of the internals of the motor are what the bloke i bought it off said it was so i can only go on this but the cam is degreed at
-3.0 and with 114lc thats all i got in that regards. The ignition is an electronic msd unit with 6a box and blaster 2 coil. I did have the car on a chassis dyno before i raced it and the a/f ratio was good but it did only manage 385 rwhp at it's best.




Wow. With that info I agree with the others! It's time for a cam swap!
Posted By: RobX4406

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 05:25 AM

If that cam is installed 3 degrees retarded from the 114 LSA, it's NEVER gonna run without about a 300 hit of juice at the hit!

92mph in the 1/8th with a 496??? It's SLOW. 3300# a bodies with 450-480hp run in the 95-98 range.
Posted By: dartman366

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 06:24 AM

I agree with Mike, you may see a big improvement in bottom end with just re setting the cam straight up or a couple of degree's advanced, it's alot cheaper than a bunch of new parts.
Posted By: T-bar

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 08:40 AM

Well that gives me a good place to start thanks for the replies. I'm gonna get some 28" tall tyres as a start but i think i will do some investigation in the cam area. Again thankyou.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 12:09 PM

looks like your 60 foot can be better.cI'd think if you could get it down to 1.60 your et would really pick up. What were you hoping for? I'm running a turbo Action 3800 stall and it works well on the street and at the track. Did you try launching it different? Mine 60 foot is better from off idle (1500rpm) and dead stomping it than loading up on the converter. Takes time to figure all that out. You might also want to add or take out some timing..It's not something you are going to get the 1st time out, unless you get 15 runs.
Posted By: StandOnIt

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 12:32 PM

My car is 3300 lbs with me in it. 5.9 magnum with a 4" crank making 406" hyd roller (limited lift with factory lifters) motor, 904 basicly stock with TA vb with 4.10 rear gear with 29" tires. I had a BTE 9.5" converter handing out a 1.58 60 ft time with a 11.50's 1/4 et in good air and 11.70's in heat. Changed to a TA 8" verter and car went (good air) 1.44 60 ft with an et of 10.92 at 122 mph, (heat / bad track prep) 1.49 / 1.50 60 ft, 11.03 1/4 mile at 119 mph. A good converter will make you think you are in someone elses car, haha. Old verter stalled around 3300 flashing at 4000 or so. 8" is stalling 4200 or so with a flash around 4900 rpm. Buy a good one and you are done with that area. If you buy 2 or 3 cheap ones, you could have had 1 good one and didn't have to pull trans many times. talk to the RB guys and find what is working with your numbers.
Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 02:07 PM

MPH is down. I suggest tuning before spending money, ripping the heads off, or doing any other parts swapping.
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 02:27 PM

Now that you provided some more cam info ( exactly where I was headed when asking the LSA), you do have better choices in a camshaft. Especially if its installed retarded 3 degrees? I've said it a gazillion times on here, if you dont 60', you are going to maximize your combination. Its all starts with the 60'. Your still going to have issues with the other items as noted. I still believe the carb is oversized as well.

Dont forget strokers " eat up camshaft " duration, so the larger cam specs arent always quite so detrimental, but a 114 LSA is in your case, and then in at 117(?), thats killing low end power and torque, which also kills torque converter stall and 60'.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 04:09 PM

Well advance that cam to 106 install to start should wake it up a hole bunch. Must be flat as pizz on a platter now.

Yes on the 4200 to 4500 stall.


Yes on full port on the heads and milling .050 to get the compression up to at least 11.5 to 1

better cam when possible.
Posted By: mopar400

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 04:39 PM

We need to see some pics of the car!
Posted By: T-bar

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 10:12 PM

Is it worth the time in advancing that cam if the duration is to wide? or should i change it out? I don't have anymore info on it then what i've listed. I thought i had the tune down pretty good from the chassis dyno. I did try different launch rpm's and shift points. I do understand that the 60' is critical and until i sort that it's gonna be slow. With a correct cam for this engine wouldn't it be ideal to have the heads flowed?
Posted By: 70blackfish

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 11:00 PM

if your going to stick with 1/8 mile...more gear would be way better.
and I have a 8 inch ATI converter 4500 stahl...drives great on the street low tranny temps too. Never over 180 F.,
Posted By: bentwheel43

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 11:19 PM

Hi T,I want to add some things that we done.I passed a friend's car a BBC and looked at his tack.He was shifting at 5200 I asked is at all,he said yeah it didn't matter if he shifted at 5200 or 6000 same mph or et. in the 1/8. So I was shifting at 6000 and went to 5200 then 5000 down to 4700 and picked 5 mph.Both cars had 410 gears I guess it was in 3rd.
longer .The car had a .555" solid cam.Your car will come arould I think you need slicks.~~ Bent
Posted By: moparmanjames

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/08/12 11:42 PM

Quote:

Is it worth the time in advancing that cam if the duration is to wide? or should i change it out? I don't have anymore info on it then what i've listed. I thought i had the tune down pretty good from the chassis dyno. I did try different launch rpm's and shift points. I do understand that the 60' is critical and until i sort that it's gonna be slow. With a correct cam for this engine wouldn't it be ideal to have the heads flowed?




Flowing the heads would cost money that you could be putting into the cam.
I would change the cam out with one that has a 106 to 108 lobe separation angle, and a duration at .050 of around 260 to 270 @ .050" lift, preferrably 260 for great mid range torque.
Advance it 4 degrees if it doesn't already come that way (advance ground in)and hang on.
You're converter will stall higher, you won't have to change gear or tire.
Posted By: T-bar

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/09/12 12:08 AM

I will probaly change my tyres for the strip anyway because i got bit carried away with the burnouts and took a fair bit off my normal drive tyres. I will definately sort the cam area. It's great being a part of this forum the help is fantastic!
Posted By: viperblue72

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/09/12 05:26 AM

I agree with everybody that the stall speed and gearing isn't optimum, but should work fine with 496 cubes. I believe the real problem lies with the camshaft.

Posted By: Evil Spirit

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/09/12 05:52 AM

Quote:

Hey all, i had my 70 Cuda out for the first time at an 1/8th mile track on the weekend and was a little disappointed on the results. I know this can be open ended question but can you give me some ideas on what i can do to get the times lower.
The best time was 7.57 at 92.98 mph and 60ft 1.72.
A few of the other runs were close to that area as well.
Now the combo is
496rb
10.5 compression
flat tappet .565" lift on both and .274 deg @ .50
eddy rpm performer heads with light porting (no flow numbers)
440 victor intake
1050 quick fuel carb 4150
converter stalls around 3500 (unsure)
727 full manual
3.91 diff gears
295/65r15 mickey thompson et's
So any thoughts?




Pretty amusing - all those replies about tossing a bunch of parts or changes at the car, and NOBODY asked 1 important question - what are you running for exhaust?
The ET times and chassis dyno numbers are spot on for your combo if you are still running manifolds or a restrictive exhaust. I've seen the cheap repop chrome exhaust tips with only about a 2" inlet pipe choke a healthy big block up pretty badly.
Posted By: StrokerAspen

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/09/12 06:01 AM

Quote:

I will probaly change my tyres for the strip anyway because i got bit carried away with the burnouts and took a fair bit off my normal drive tyres. I will definately sort the cam area. It's great being a part of this forum the help is fantastic!




Ah yes, the big Auzzie burnouts eh? Showing off to the Sheila's watching?! Everyone loves a big burnout! hard on the tire life though!

I think you are headed in the right direction. A set of 28" tall tires for starters. I would look at suspension stuff too. The cam isn't perfect, but I think the combo has a bit more in it. Look at a GM LS7 in the C6 ZO6... it is running 120LSA, and it isn't a boosted or sprayed deal.

-Kenny
Posted By: T-bar

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/09/12 11:41 AM

Got to do a half decent burnout a few times lol. The exhaust is Hooker supercomp 1&7/8 into 3' full exhaust to the back bumper with 40 series mufflers. Will get a set of 90/10's and try that as well.
Posted By: deaks

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/09/12 01:10 PM

The calvert front shocks would help the launch on your car, although one or two guys have tried them
on heavier cars and not liked them.
Personally i love mine.
Mick
Posted By: Evil Spirit

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/09/12 04:27 PM

There's a lot of posts suggesting jacking the camshaft around - yet nobody has mentioned that would be foolish without seeing what kind of valve clearance you have now. Just because it should have clearance with the parts listed doesn't mean it does . Since you don't really know whats inside the motor and are going on the sellers word, I'd stick with tuning carb, timing, suspension, tire pressures etc., before I would mess with a cam degree change that may break a bunch of parts.
Posted By: StrokerAspen

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/09/12 07:23 PM

Quote:

There's a lot of posts suggesting jacking the camshaft around - yet nobody has mentioned that would be foolish without seeing what kind of valve clearance you have now. Just because it should have clearance with the parts listed doesn't mean it does . Since you don't really know whats inside the motor and are going on the sellers word, I'd stick with tuning carb, timing, suspension, tire pressures etc., before I would mess with a cam degree change that may break a bunch of parts.






I have a brand new big solid roller for a 59 degree small block sitting on the shelf because she no fit. I knew it would be close. Turned out I had about -.005" clearance on the intake valve So, Logically, I bought a second car to build around the camshaft... it's going to be a while before I use that cam. OR we can always use it in a customer's car.

-Kenny
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/09/12 07:30 PM

Quote:

Turned out I had about -.005" clearance on the intake valve



that's not enough.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/09/12 09:41 PM

There is ways of checking valve clearance assembled. my guess is with uncut eddies and pistons with valve notches he could advance it a lot from where it is now 106 to 108 will be a huge power shift!
Posted By: BSB67

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/10/12 12:56 AM

Quote:

Hay Kevin, yes it's been two years since i got the car and had a ball racing again as it's been about twenty years between runs. The car weighs 3630 with me in, standard springs that have been reset down, with kyb gas adjustable shocks on rear and standard shocks on the front. It launched fairly even and straight.




Hmmm. Twenty years....Maybe go back to the track a couple more times just to get more seat time and your driving skills sorted out....launch, shift points maybe a couple of carb adjustments before you go making engine changes.
Posted By: GwaiiEagle

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/10/12 01:38 AM

Quote:


Now the combo is
496rb
10.5 compression
flat tappet .565" lift on both and .274 deg @ .50
eddy rpm performer heads with light porting (no flow numbers)
440 victor intake
1050 quick fuel carb 4150
converter stalls around 3500 (unsure)
727 full manual
3.91 diff gears
295/65r15 mickey thompson et's
So any thoughts?




Something is Wrong here.

Here's my combination which ran a best of 7.43 at 92 mph with a 1.62 60 ft.

Not really loading up on the car.

'74 Duster
448 0.020 over 3.75 stroked 400 block.
OOTB 84 closed chambered Eddy heads
KB 280 with quench dome milled off. 10.2:1
Magnum series Comp Cams 282S (236 at 50 .528 lift with a 1.6 ratio rocker arm).
Performer RPM 383
Holley 850DP 1 inch 4 hole spacer.
727 w/11 inch converter
1.75 headers to a 3 inch exhaust.
28x9 slick on a 3.91 gear.

Your mill is better all around than mine must be a tuning thing or you`re not launching hard enough.

What altitude is the track, not 4000ft or something...
Posted By: 7e5dartsport

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/10/12 01:49 AM

tbar,i looked at cam-quest6 for a cam that migth better fit your combo. comp cams xs290s is the best solid i found .they recommend 3500 stall and 10.5 compression, which would work with what you already have. it would even be streetable and you could probably reuse your valve springs. no head machining necessary either( around same lift as the old cam). i know you would prefer a solid roller, but you could just slip this one in and it would improve torque a bunch and probably hp too. both of which should improve your 60 foots.but, if it was me, i would fine-tune the advance curve in the distributor( locked-out?) and tailor the carb`s accelerator pumps before the cam change.
Posted By: T-bar

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/10/12 09:06 AM

I ended up having 12 or so runs for the weekend, had my reaction times down pretty good too. I tried different launch rpm's as well as a couple of short shift's. I never changed timing at the track but when it was on the chassis dyno we tried more and less from what it set at (36 total) and never changed anything there. I know the dyno is not the same but would it make that much difference
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/10/12 12:13 PM

You might want to try 38* early like 2200rpm. Did you run it w/ or w/o an air filter? Depending on the elemnet you might pick up a tenth or 2 w/o it. I also think 15lbs for drag radials is low. That might be causing the tire to "cup" Radials don't act like the old bias plys, try a few more lbs of air. I run my hoosier drag radials at 17 (still a WIP) I'd think your car should be in the 1.60 range or better. Don't worry about your "light" just work on your launch and shift points.
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/11/12 11:56 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Is it worth the time in advancing that cam if the duration is to wide? or should i change it out? I don't have anymore info on it then what i've listed. I thought i had the tune down pretty good from the chassis dyno. I did try different launch rpm's and shift points. I do understand that the 60' is critical and until i sort that it's gonna be slow. With a correct cam for this engine wouldn't it be ideal to have the heads flowed?




Flowing the heads would cost money that you could be putting into the cam.
I would change the cam out with one that has a 106 to 108 lobe separation angle, and a duration at .050 of around 260 to 270 @ .050" lift, preferrably 260 for great mid range torque.
Advance it 4 degrees if it doesn't already come that way (advance ground in)and hang on.
You're converter will stall higher, you won't have to change gear or tire.




The cam, compression, head work and converter all effect on another, and the dominator is going to like lots of stall. In order of what to do, I would go with a cam first, compression and some port work next, then match the converter with plenty of stall to work well with the dominator. Gears would come last, as they won't be worth near as much in ET gain if the converter is stalling up where it needs to be.
Posted By: T-bar

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/11/12 08:13 PM

Will be doing something with the cam definately and the heads may come off too. Just a side note the carb isn't a dominator it's Quickfuel 4150 base 1050cfm. Thanks again for the replies.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/11/12 08:31 PM

If your looking for something to pick it up and get out for a few more hits advance the cam up to 108 to 106. it will give you a big wow factor.

If you are done for the season and looking to sort out over winter different cam, get at the heads, (mill and port) maybe a new torque converter and so on!
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/11/12 08:43 PM

where that cam is installed now makes your dynamic compression about 7.5 to 1 and cranking compression is likely about 145

advance it to 106 and your dynamic will go to about 8.3 and cranking to 165 assuming it is 10.5 to 1.
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: 1st time on track little dissapointed - 05/11/12 08:59 PM

The 274 duration at 0.050" is a little on the high side for only 10.5 CR, but with 496 CID it might be OK. However, that much duration will really like more stall speed, 4000 minimum and the more the better. That should enable 1.5x sixty foot times (2 tenths right there).

Get the cam position checked. If it is retarded, that is killing it. If it really has a 114 lobe separation angle (lobe centers), then 3 degrees retarded would put the intake lobe installed position at 117 degrees after top center (ATC). Just moving it to 108-110 ATC would help some. Maybe the guy meant 114-3= 111 ATC which is OK. This can be checked with some timing tape on the damper and a dial indicator on the pushrod. Piston to valve clearance will be changed by advancing the cam...

I think the 3.91 gear is fine even if a little more might be optimum. I estimate that tire is close to 30" dia, so a little shorter will act like more gear ratio.

Although the Victor is a great intake, the Edelbrock RPM dual plane will work great up to around 6000 rpm and improve low rpm drivability also.

My suggested order:
1) Check cam, set installed position if off
2) Swap intake, easy and not expensive
3) It really needs more converter stall speed
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