The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block

Posted By: ZIPPY

The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/05/12 03:07 PM

This has annoyed me for years, and I never came up with a way to take care of it or asked before...

Has anyone developed a method to cool the hot spot in the center of the head and/or center of the deck surface?

Right between 4 and 6, and between 3 and 5.

Other than relocating the ports....any known tricks, etc?

Last night I started tearing down the 440 that I ran in the GTX for like 14 years, and it's just like every other B-RB motor I have ever worked on.....right in the middle of the deck surface, there are signs of heat and a possible small amount of head gasket movement.

This is an 8.8:1 484 purple shaft engine, and it isn't like it was highly stressed. I used steel shim head gaskets and copper coat the last time I had the heads off....the copper coat is still there all around the deck surface, but right in the middle it's blackened and there are definite signs of the head gasket moving around.

It didn't leak that I could detect, but leakage between cylinders only when running can be difficult to find.

Every one I have worked on did not look as nice as I would like in that one spot....stock, modified, my engines, other peoples engines, composite gaskets, steel shim gaskets, does not seem to matter....gaskets don't like the heat from the two center exhaust ports. It always changes color in that spot.

I've never used mls other than gen 3 hemis, not sure if those gaskets will take the heat better? But it seems to me it would be preferable to cool the metal off somehow....

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/05/12 03:32 PM

It used to be common on hard hit nitrous motors for people to drill and tap a 4an fitting in between and below those exhaust ports in the heads and run lines to the thermostat housing.

Posted By: hemi-itis

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/05/12 05:54 PM

Wonder if the reverse water pump deal would help

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/05/12 09:42 PM

Quote:

It used to be common on hard hit nitrous motors for people to drill and tap a 4an fitting in between and below those exhaust ports in the heads and run lines to the thermostat housing.

That's interesting, I have never seen that.

I wonder if the drilled passage should turn 90 deg. down and through the deck surface of the block......or if it would just circulate outward from the head?

seems like it should go through the block....

Seems like reverse cooling should help the overall head temp, and might be enough to take care of it also, maybe?

Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/05/12 10:48 PM

Quote:

Seems like reverse cooling should help the overall head temp, and might be enough to take care of it also, maybe?

What if you could add lines that direct coolant fluid right out of the waterpump housing to that area of the head??? Instead of letting more coolant flow out of there, let cooler fluid in, being the idea.

Posted By: moparacer

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/06/12 02:07 AM

My old W7 aluminum small block engine had -4 lines running from the block up to the head just under the exhaust ports for that.

Posted By: rebel

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/06/12 02:42 AM

Quote:

Wonder if the reverse water pump deal would help

i feel it does, when i fitted my reverse flow pump i had on the previous build drilled thru my head gasket in this area, with the reverse flow pump it dropped 20* on the pyros & with the previous std flow pump it also had dropped nearly 20*, so its a total of almost 40 all up. they (the pyros)still run a little warmer in this area.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/06/12 03:11 AM

Rich, my B1 heads were tapped to 1/8 pipe right above
the head surface for a #4 or #6 line then into the pump

Posted By: topside

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/06/12 04:42 AM

As I understand it, the whole point of reverse-cooling is to feed the heads first. IIRC, that's another thing Smokey Yunick pioneered decades ago.
Didn't I just read something about drilling the block & head decks to move water through that location?

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/06/12 05:03 AM

HA found a pic...

Attached picture 7194191-25220230-685-499-Mopar-B1-nitrous-1500HP.jpg

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/06/12 05:06 AM

You can see here where the lines go into the pump housing...

Attached picture 7194197-25220038-663-499-Mopar-B1-nitrous-1500HP.jpg

Posted By: 70Cuda383

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/06/12 01:09 PM

since most fixes seem to be in the cooling system, it must be due to lack of coolant flow, but my initial thoughts were "that's where the exhaust ports open up to flow out and across the intake manifold" could it be exhaust port design/location that makes that section hotter?

Posted By: dwayne welder

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/06/12 01:38 PM

Hello all; there are somr people on here that now me!!!! Her's my fix fore your problem!!! Has anyone ever look at the deck of a small block chavy??? I believe all big block mopar's and aftermaket iron and aluminum blocks have a cooling hole between were the exhaust passage's are! I drill the head's , iron and aluminum 1/2 inch' to help flow more wate here. I have seen many year's ago at friend's shop were this would torch the head in this area, on iron head's. Hope this help's, good luck!!! OOOO buy the way get ride of that purple shaft and get a real bump shaft!!!!

Posted By: MattW

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/06/12 01:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It used to be common on hard hit nitrous motors for people to drill and tap a 4an fitting in between and below those exhaust ports in the heads and run lines to the thermostat housing.

Quote:

It used to be common on hard hit nitrous motors for people to drill and tap a 4an fitting in between and below those exhaust ports in the heads and run lines to the thermostat housing.

That's interesting, I have never seen that.

I wonder if the drilled passage should turn 90 deg. down and through the deck surface of the block......or if it would just circulate outward from the head?

seems like it should go through the block....

Seems like reverse cooling should help the overall head temp, and might be enough to take care of it also, maybe?

Zippy go to Moparchats . com there a section about smallblock cooling.
It address this issue and maybe helpful to you

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/06/12 01:49 PM

Electric reverse flow pump and plumbing lines right to the heads like the photo of 73Swingers' has got to be the best fix of them all. Fresh coolant right out of the radiator to the hot spot first. That extra flow is really needed on a gas burning deal with two cylinders exhaust being right side by side from the valve seats to the outside of the head. Not nearly as much coolant can get there as the next best spot which would be the end of each head. Where the intakes are paired, I'll bet the temps run several degrees cooler than the average.

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/06/12 04:05 PM

Quote:

could it be exhaust port design/location that makes that section hotter?

Absolutely, I am pretty confident in saying that's what causes it....two exhaust ports right next to each other. There is coolant flow in the block below it, and coolant flow in the head above it, but the two aren't connected.

Why not? No clue there

If connected per dwayne welder's comments, that would probably take care of most of it. That + the external plumbing is attacking it two ways, and bet that would do it 110%. Great food for thought there, thank you.

As far as getting a real cam, c'mon now, I'm running around on the street with a .631 solid roller these days

If I get a minute later might put up some pictures so folks understand what I am talking about....but it seems like many of us would already be familiar with it (?)

Thanks for the input all, might have to put these ideas to work sometime.

It seems like a weak point in the engine design that usually is not addressed....but maybe it should be, even for mild engines, just for reliability's sake.

Posted By: Sport440

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/06/12 06:18 PM

There is a old trick that I read about from Paul Rossi. He would drill a hole to make a water port dead center in both the bottom of the head and top of the block. In the article he stated that MP did in with some heads used on motorhomes.

He had pics of the Motorhome head and the ones that he modified to match. I did that mod to my eddies too. I may still have that artcle around. I dont know how well it works though. But Paul did recomend it. mike

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/06/12 07:10 PM

Quote:

Zippy go to Moparchats . com there a section about smallblock cooling.
It address this issue and maybe helpful to you

I was wondering if the small block stuff at moparchat would apply here, since I don't really know 440s yet

He recommends drilling I think a 1/8" hole between the cylinders through the deck, gasket, and head. It seems like that would be a pretty simple mod to match what the other cylinders do, and get a little coolant through. Seems like it shouldn't hurt at any rate.

Posted By: MattW

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/06/12 10:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Zippy go to Moparchats . com there a section about smallblock cooling.
It address this issue and maybe helpful to you

I was wondering if the small block stuff at moparchat would apply here, since I don't really know 440s yet

He recommends drilling I think a 1/8" hole between the cylinders through the deck, gasket, and head. It seems like that would be a pretty simple mod to match what the other cylinders do, and get a little coolant through. Seems like it shouldn't hurt at any rate.

I think it was also for air pockets.
I was thinking about doing this to my Indy smallblock heads.

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/07/12 02:41 AM

Sorry for the picture quality. I'm probably going to round up some more gear to improve that aspect...a light, a tripod, and a background would probably do wonders....but for now this will have to do.

Stock block, nothing there in the middle, no coolant passage. I cleaned up the burned copper coat but wish I had left it....did not plan on taking any pics...

Attached picture 7195191-DSC00687.JPG

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/07/12 02:46 AM

Mopar Performance Wedge block. Note the water passage in the middle, below where the 2 center exhaust ports would go.

This is a very nice improvement, but if the gasket and the head don't match, then the flow of water stops right there.

There isn't much meat between the cylinders at 4.500!

Attached picture 7195196-DSC00685.JPG

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/07/12 03:01 AM

I had forgotten the old 440 had mismatched heads on it, and that was all I had to use in 1988 when dinosaurs roamed the earth.

It had 346 on one side and 213 on the other....same basic ports, just different numbers. This is the 213 head.

Look how the copper coat is intact between the two outside cylinders and the two inside cylinders......but right in the middle, it's black and burned.

Heat: It's got nowhere to go.

Attached picture 7195219-DSC00690.JPG

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/07/12 03:14 AM

And if you're still with me, here's the gasket, same thing. Copper everywhere, but in the middle it's black. It did appear to still be holding, but there's room for improvement.

To me this looks terrible, but after seeing a few like this I got the "they're all like that" mentality. And I have to admit this never caused me any problems or worry, but the more I mess with these things the more it bugs me.

If I had the resources I think it would be interesting to see what the temperature is right there, then modify with cooling holes and/or hoses, and measure again.

That one spot is usually the first place a head cracks, which I feel is no coincidence.....

Attached picture 7195237-DSC00691.JPG

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/07/12 03:19 AM

On dwaynes comments:

It looks like sbc had a couple different approaches to the same problem. One big hole with two little ones flanking it...

Attached picture 7195246-sbcgasket.jpg

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/07/12 03:24 AM

Or, just two little holes.

Attached picture 7195255-sbcgasket2.jpg

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/07/12 03:26 AM

Food for thought

Posted By: Sport440

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/07/12 04:50 AM

Quote:

And if you're still with me, here's the gasket, same thing. Copper everywhere, but in the middle it's black. It did appear to still be holding, but there's room for improvement.

To me this looks terrible, but after seeing a few like this I got the "they're all like that" mentality. And I have to admit this never caused me any problems or worry, but the more I mess with these things the more it bugs me.

If I had the resources I think it would be interesting to see what the temperature is right there, then modify with cooling holes and/or hoses, and measure again.

That one spot is usually the first place a head cracks, which I feel is no coincidence.....

As you see in this photo none of the other water jackets are opened up. But , as I stated earlier, other pioneers of the trade have drilled steam/water holes through that center hole between the two siamiesd exhahust ports.

Is it needed, Probably not! If your worried about it Zip, go ahead and do it.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/07/12 05:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

And if you're still with me, here's the gasket, same thing. Copper everywhere, but in the middle it's black. It did appear to still be holding, but there's room for improvement.

To me this looks terrible, but after seeing a few like this I got the "they're all like that" mentality. And I have to admit this never caused me any problems or worry, but the more I mess with these things the more it bugs me.

If I had the resources I think it would be interesting to see what the temperature is right there, then modify with cooling holes and/or hoses, and measure again.

That one spot is usually the first place a head cracks, which I feel is no coincidence.....

As you see in this photo none of the other water jackets are opened up. But , as I stated earlier, other pioneers of the trade have drilled steam/water holes through that center hole between the two siamiesd exhahust ports.

Is it needed, Probably not! If your worried about it Zip, go ahead and do it.

The one thing I wonder about is sealing it , the head gasket is embossed around the other water holes but it wouldn't be arounsd this hole .

I know others have drilled a hole where the head gasket blocks off the lower holes between 1 and 3 and 5 and 7 but the gasket is embossed around those holes.

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/07/12 01:57 PM

Same here, was thinking a good quality sealer would likely hold it although it probably wouldn't be considered ideal.

Need to take a look at some different gaskets and see what's out there. Will start with the ones in inventory...

Thought: there might be an off the shelf gasket that could be used as a guide... For small blocks, one of the Mopar manuals recommends using a certain Cometic gasket as a drill template...maybe the same exists for B/RB?
And that would definitely seal since the gasket was designed for it.

That same manual recommends drilling the passage to the outside of the head as shown on the pic of the KB block, but instead of running the water lines to the pump they run them to the center freeze plug of the block....

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/07/12 02:34 PM

Rich I worked on a project engine for DCAE... it was
2 teams of engineers that would build a race car/truck
and we ended up drilling coolant holes in the heads..
holes were in the block... we tried a few different
sizes to get the flow and cooling right... that ended
up in the production engine(I believe it was a 3.5L
but I dont recall).. made a big difference on the
dyno when we were buzzing it hard and made more power

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/07/12 02:58 PM

Yeah Mike, I can see how experimenting with that could pay off big time. Even if the result isn't anything earth shattering...like maybe the valve job holds up slightly longer/better seems it would be worth it.

For a guy working at home in the garage, seems like it would be simple to add holes here and there but maybe not so easy to measure improvement though?

Backyard approach I guess would be try it, run it for awhile and inspect the head gaskets....at one time I used to have a hookup for thermocouples, not anymore

It does look to already be a proven mod on both RVs and race engines though.

Found some gaskets on the web that have the cooling hole, but I'm not sure I trust the pictures....they're usually wrong...but it's all I've got.

summit1

this one looks like it might match up to the Mopar performance block...but if it doesn't match the head, then?:
summit2

Posted By: dartman366

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/07/12 03:03 PM

Quote:

Yeah Mike, I can see how experimenting with that could pay off big time. Even if the result isn't anything earth shattering...like maybe the valve job holds up slightly longer/better seems it would be worth it.

For a guy working at home in the garage, seems like it would be simple to add holes here and there but maybe not so easy to measure improvement though?

Backyard approach I guess would be try it, run it for awhile and inspect the head gaskets....at one time I used to have a hookup for thermocouples, not anymore It does look to already be a proven mod on both RVs and race engines though.

Found some gaskets on the web that have the cooling hole, but I'm not sure I trust the pictures....they're usually wrong...but it's all I've got.

summit1

this one looks like it might match up to the Mopar performance block...but if it doesn't match the head, then?:
summit2

would the motorhome block have the cooling holes you guys are talking about, if they do and you need a pic I can do that.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/07/12 03:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Yeah Mike, I can see how experimenting with that could pay off big time. Even if the result isn't anything earth shattering...like maybe the valve job holds up slightly longer/better seems it would be worth it.

For a guy working at home in the garage, seems like it would be simple to add holes here and there but maybe not so easy to measure improvement though?

Backyard approach I guess would be try it, run it for awhile and inspect the head gaskets....at one time I used to have a hookup for thermocouples, not anymore It does look to already be a proven mod on both RVs and race engines though.

Found some gaskets on the web that have the cooling hole, but I'm not sure I trust the pictures....they're usually wrong...but it's all I've got.

summit1

this one looks like it might match up to the Mopar performance block...but if it doesn't match the head, then?:
summit2

would the motorhome block have the cooling holes you guys are talking about, if they do and you need a pic I can do that.

the only holes I have seen on motorhome blocks are the extra holes along the outer edge that correspond to certain heads, Fel Pro 8519 gaskets have the passages in them already. I just worked on a 440 build that had a set of 452's with the holes and just by chance the block I ended up supplying for the build had the holes already in it.

Posted By: 2734bbl

Re: The hot spot in the head and deck surface, big block - 05/17/12 03:51 PM

Any updates on this? I'm switching from 906 to 915 in a few weeks and if it's a good mod I was going to do it.

Thanks