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Demon front end work

Posted By: Moparnut426

Demon front end work - 04/30/12 08:14 PM

Currently I have a stock manual steering box and stock /6 torsion bars. The car has been aligned a few times, but I can never get it perfectly in spec. If I were to upgrade the front end on this car what would be the best bang for the buck? The car is rarely on a track, 94% is street cruising.

When the car was restored I replaced all fron control arm bushings, lower control arm bushings, and all tie rods, and idler arm parts with new rubber bshings.

Just wnating a better feeling front end is all.

Thanks

Kasey
Posted By: rickraw

Re: Demon front end work - 04/30/12 11:18 PM

mine has the alterkation frt end. $$$, but a nice peice. move into the 20th century.
Posted By: JAKE68

Re: Demon front end work - 04/30/12 11:24 PM

I dont understand what you want. A better feeling??? What is that? Explain more what your looking for so I can answer your question.
Posted By: Leon441

Re: Demon front end work - 04/30/12 11:47 PM

Lower the rear about three inches.
Posted By: VoodooCLD

Re: Demon front end work - 04/30/12 11:51 PM

Stiffer torsion bars, how stiff depends on your engine and how soft a ride you require.
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 04:13 AM

OK, first off, I love how the car sits, so Im not dealing with that, and FEEL its pretty sloppy feeling, like theres a bunch of loose front end parts on the car. I would like to have a front end that works and feels like something thats not wore out.

I thought about going with adjustable upper control arms, and getting a steering box that has been rebuilt.

Wont a stiffer torsion bar make it transfer worse?

I was just asking if there was a kit, or a gathering of parts that will make it steer better, and be able to fully adjust my front end.

If I have to save up for an altercation, ore a magnum force front end, Ill do that, but if its not necessary ill just buy the parts to make it a better driving car.
Posted By: moparpollack

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 04:22 AM

Quote:

Lower the rear about three inches.



You can get weight transfer without having the rear end jacked up.
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 04:28 AM

I like the stance, its on SS springs, and until I get a cal trac set up, It gonna have to be this way, I dont think the rearend has anything to do with the way it is steering, Its not like its on 5" shackles. I really dosnt sit that high, the picture in my sig is taken on a chunck of really uneven ground. Yes its high, but not that bad.

Kasey
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 04:29 AM

Quote:

OK, first off, I love how the car sits, so Im not dealing with that, and FEEL its pretty sloppy feeling, like theres a bunch of loose front end parts on the car. I would like to have a front end that works and feels like something thats not wore out.

I thought about going with adjustable upper control arms, and getting a steering box that has been rebuilt.

Wont a stiffer torsion bar make it transfer worse?

I was just asking if there was a kit, or a gathering of parts that will make it steer better, and be able to fully adjust my front end.

If I have to save up for an altercation, ore a magnum force front end, Ill do that, but if its not necessary ill just buy the parts to make it a better driving car.



It sure sounds like you want a road racer and a drag
car... not gonna happen... stiffer bars will knock
out some of the roll rate... I would also bet you
have a bad toe curve... if you put a sway bar on it
for the street and unhooked it for drag racing that
would help but you want a 94% street car
Posted By: Bad340fish

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 06:43 AM

Being all jacked up in the back will make it harder to get positive caster which will really help the road feel. If you lower the rear it will help roll the upper ball joint back to help with positve caster.

I am running rms upper arms and strut rods on my barracuda. It has 5* of positve caster and it drives like a dream on the street and track.
Posted By: formula S

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 06:51 AM

Quote:

Being all jacked up in the back will make it harder to get positive caster which will really help the road feel. If you lower the rear it will help roll the upper ball joint back to help with positve caster.




Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 09:37 AM

It sounds to me like there's still some looseness that needs to be identified rather than shotgunning it and buying a bunch more parts.

Is the steering gear loose???

To much "toe-in" will make steering squirrely too.
Posted By: bigsbigelow

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 11:42 AM

When I had my front end aligned (with all the old "worn" out front end parts) I went from -1 degree caster to nearly +1 degree caster and that made a huge difference in the "tightness" of the steering. I also just adjusted my steering box and took a BUNCH of slop out of the steering wheel. Do you have skinny "front runner" type wheels and tires on the front?
Posted By: JCCuda

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 01:31 PM

I also agree getting the back of the car down will help with how the car drives. You can lower the back of the car a couple of inches by just flipping the front spring hangers upside down. To do this you just need to open up a couple of the mounting holes a little bit. Of course you will need to check your pinion angle afterwards. This car also has super stock springs.

Attached picture 7187294-DusteratE-town2011.jpg
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 01:34 PM

Front tires are skinny. I might need to rebuild the steering box, It is a little on the loose side, but not junk. The car has a set of SS springs, thats it, nothing more. Have a set of Calvert rear shocks, and I took the pinion snubber off.

You guys are talking to me like I have a 80 vintage hot rod with sky, jackers, 5" shackles, and have my rearend painted white with red lights on the traction bars, NOT THE CASE HERE.

We have a very old alignment rack here, I may have to take it to a friends shop who has a newer rack, like 20 years newer with better turning plates.

I guess Ill have to get it up in the air and check for shot parts. I did take my swey bar off last year, and honestly havent felt a difference.

Mr P I dont want a drag/course car, but I do want a car with a little better manners.

Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 02:12 PM

I might send a core steering box in to Firm Feel, and get one of their rebuilt boxes. That would be a good thing to do anyways.
Posted By: Bad340fish

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 02:56 PM

The steering box might help but it won't do near as much as caster. My steering box is loooossseee and with all the positive caster it doesn't wander or anything.

What size tires do you have on the back? IMO it sits way high in the back but it's your taste and your car so no big deal. It might take an adjustable upper arm to help get the caster you need for it to drive well.
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 03:01 PM

Rears are 265s MT ET radials.

Another issue ill have is if I get it too low in the ass, Ill be cutting the side wals. This car has a HUGE wheel well lip, and I didnt think of dealing with it until I got it all painted and got the new wheels and tires under the car.

I might see if I can find a set of these wheels with a tad mor back spacing then I could at least flip the hanger.
Posted By: bigsbigelow

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 03:24 PM

The skinny fronts may be contributing to the loose feel. Try adjusting your steering box and get an alignment with at least some positive caster (zero caster will feel better than -.25 degrees). When I adjusted my steering box I ran the adjuster screw all the way in and then backed it out 1 turn. I was able to turn the adjuster in another quarter turn from there without losing steering return. The last time I aligned my car, the factory stuff went to the +1 degree I described. I have offset Moog UCA bushings and I am going to shoot for at least +2 degrees when I get the front re-built. I hop eyou get everything sorted out. BTW I LOVE YOUR DEMON. I have a pic of it as one of my desktop backgrounds.
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 03:35 PM

Quote:

The skinny fronts may be contributing to the loose feel. Try adjusting your steering box and get an alignment with at least some positive caster (zero caster will feel better than -.25 degrees). When I adjusted my steering box I ran the adjuster screw all the way in and then backed it out 1 turn. I was able to turn the adjuster in another quarter turn from there without losing steering return. The last time I aligned my car, the factory stuff went to the +1 degree I described. I have offset Moog UCA bushings and I am going to shoot for at least +2 degrees when I get the front re-built. I hop eyou get everything sorted out. BTW I LOVE YOUR DEMON. I have a pic of it as one of my desktop backgrounds.



Thanks BTW,

I know its higher than most like, I understand that, but I have had a 72 Duster that sat the same way and it steered better, I think the skinnies dont help as a few have said. If I could find a tire that fit the 3.5 rims that were a tad wider that would help.

I wish I could fine some 4.5 or 5" MT et wheels like I have but they dont make them.

Ill just have to bite the bullet and get some nice upper control arms, and get to adjusting. I plan on taking all the rubber front end parts off and replacing them with stuff from just suspension or firm feel.

Posted By: Bad340fish

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 03:56 PM

Do yourself a favor and get the rms uppers and adjustable strut rods. Then the only bushing you will have left is the lower control arm. You won't believe the difference.

Posted By: bigsbigelow

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 04:00 PM

Quote:

Do yourself a favor and get the rms uppers and adjustable strut rods. Then the only bushing you will have left is the lower control arm. You won't believe the difference.






Just a side note, Magnum Force makes a double adjustable UCA with rod ends that can be adjusted without removing the UCA.



linky
Posted By: quick77rt

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 04:08 PM


Mr P.

It can be done to a point, with the alterktion and a diff set of rear springs, good shocks one can go fron one to the other in a day.

You can pull the #550 fronts, put the #300 pound springs, pull the zero arch rear springs and pop in the monoleafs, ditch the 17s and put the slicks/skinnies, reset the Qa1 double adjust to the right trim and hit the track.

Yes my vert is a lil high but for serious street driving but its not an issue.

If done right and a few extra parts you can have a decent car in both worlds.

Would be a good bit harder to change t bars and such without. But a coil over front and good shocks makes the world alot easier.



Quote:

Quote:

OK, first off, I love how the car sits, so Im not dealing with that, and FEEL its pretty sloppy feeling, like theres a bunch of loose front end parts on the car. I would like to have a front end that works and feels like something thats not wore out.

I thought about going with adjustable upper control arms, and getting a steering box that has been rebuilt.

Wont a stiffer torsion bar make it transfer worse?

I was just asking if there was a kit, or a gathering of parts that will make it steer better, and be able to fully adjust my front end.

If I have to save up for an altercation, ore a magnum force front end, Ill do that, but if its not necessary ill just buy the parts to make it a better driving car.



It sure sounds like you want a road racer and a drag
car... not gonna happen... stiffer bars will knock
out some of the roll rate... I would also bet you
have a bad toe curve... if you put a sway bar on it
for the street and unhooked it for drag racing that
would help but you want a 94% street car


Posted By: 8urvette

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 04:23 PM

FWIW, I hated the way my 68 barracuda felt while driving. super loose, slow on the steering input response, it just didnt feel all that safe. I had gone through and rebuilt the whole suspension with better bushings, balljoints, etc etc. I also have SS leafs and /6 torsion bars with a front sway bar. My steering box was rebuilt by me, i thought that may have been the issue and sent it to firm feel for a rebuild.

The box was NOT my problem. My car sits high in the rear too, i was told the way it sits it changes the "dynamics" of the front suspension. I also had 185 45 14's up front with a 26 x 11 in the rear. I went to much taller 15 inch wheel upfront, and got some more "stability" out of it. Much better feeling. I had paid numerous times to get the front end aligned... never did any good. Its better now, but far from great, i just chalked it up to ma mopar have sloppy front ends
Posted By: cagebob1

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 04:34 PM

why do you want to re-invent the wheel? If everything is in good shape, I'd bet that a dose of caster will give the results you're looking for. Moog makes upper control arm bushings that have the small sleeve offset. by rotating the bushing when you install it, you can get a whole bunch more caster than ma mopar ever intended. you will be amazed at the difference...without spending huge bucks!
Be aware that too much caster will make for hard steering effort
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 04:54 PM

For what its worth here is the Demons stance on level ground..

Attached picture 7187606-demon.jpg
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 04:59 PM

ANOTHER SHOT

Attached picture 7187617-189951_204337122927406_100000533597886_723143_3941101_n.jpg
Posted By: JAKE68

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 06:10 PM

Ok what kind of readings are you getting on the alignment rack with the car at that stance? I would like to see what your readings are.I would guess you are probobly not getting enough caster with the rear up.
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 06:12 PM

Dont have my readings in front of me, but I know I couldnt get caster in spec, I have toe dead on according to spec, and it still feels like it wants to go wherever it wants to. I know the caster is all jacked up. Causing the drift.

When I get the car back here in the shop, Ill throw it back on the rack and decide what to do.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Demon front end work - 05/01/12 08:34 PM

Quote:


Mr P.

It can be done to a point, with the alterktion and a diff set of rear springs, good shocks one can go fron one to the other in a day.

You can pull the #550 fronts, put the #300 pound springs, pull the zero arch rear springs and pop in the monoleafs, ditch the 17s and put the slicks/skinnies, reset the Qa1 double adjust to the right trim and hit the track.

Yes my vert is a lil high but for serious street driving but its not an issue.

If done right and a few extra parts you can have a decent car in both worlds.

Would be a good bit harder to change t bars and such without. But a coil over front and good shocks makes the world alot easier.



sure it can be done... just like you said... changing
over a bunch of parts... MOST people wont do that
Posted By: 72demon416

Re: Demon front end work - 05/02/12 01:19 AM

I can relate to what your feeling, I hate the way mine drives. I rebuilt the whole front end with rubber bushings and other than a used manual gear box it's all new. I have NO rake and if anything it might sit a little low in the rear (not a current pic) and I have 2.5 deg of positive caster(the max I could get with offset bushings) but it still drives like a bag of sh!t. In my case I attribute the steering to my polyglas tires and a worn gearbox. I will be going to tubular upper control arms when I change out the gearbox but the tires are here to stay- so I hope it's enough to at least make it feel safe and predictable.
Posted By: Bigbeep

Re: Demon front end work - 05/03/12 02:35 AM

I think it is your wheels! You better send them to me so I can evaluate them for you on my car! Those things look great on your car. Sorry for no real help, but I love those wheels. Beep
Posted By: W5Duster436

Re: Demon front end work - 05/03/12 02:48 AM

Quote:

why do you want to re-invent the wheel? If everything is in good shape, I'd bet that a dose of caster will give the results you're looking for. Moog makes upper control arm bushings that have the small sleeve offset. by rotating the bushing when you install it, you can get a whole bunch more caster than ma mopar ever intended. you will be amazed at the difference...without spending huge bucks!
Be aware that too much caster will make for hard steering effort



I can attest to this.. I put on the offset bushings and had a bit more caster put into it. With the skinny MT's up front when I go around a corner it really feels weird like i have to fight the car.. Was a real shocker. Hopefully it's the caster and not something else.
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Demon front end work - 05/03/12 03:34 PM

I wish that MT made a et drag rim in a 4.5 or 5" wide rim. Then I could have the look and a better tire.

Kasey
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