What Would Be The Ultimate Low Deck Engine Build?

Help me build the ultimate low deck engine with some of the parts I have

1. Indy Maxx Aluminum Block finished deck height 9.965(this is the 440 RB Block machined down to the low deck height uses the 440 2.943 main bore size) it has been stroke clearance. The engine was a 528 cu in with 4.50 bore x 4.15 stroke with 1.30 compression height with this combo the pistons set .020 in the hole. I am thinking of using a 4.50 crankshaft with the 6.570 rods with a 1.15 or 1.16 compression height piston. This combo will pull the piston down .130 further so that means the counter weights on the crankshaft would need turning down possibly .130. This should make a light weight rotating assembly.
Is this a possible build?

2. Indy 572-13 Heads full cnc ported with Jezel 1.7 x 1.7 rockers

3. New BME 6.575 aluminum rods.

4. I must buy the pistons. I am leaning toward a custom set of gas ported diamond pistons. What piston would everyone suggest using?

5. I must buy a crankshaft. I am planning on using a 4.50 crank but if that is not possible I will try to use a 4.375 I know a 4.25 crank will work, but I would like to have more cu in. What brand and what stroke crankshaft would everyone suggest?

6. I must buy a camshaft. I am thinking of using a Cams Motion CM3 rpm range 5200-7600 duration 284/300 lift 816/766. What camshaft would everyone suggest?

7. The Indy Maxx aluminum block uses the spraybar valve covers(which I already have). Should I convert it over to push rod oiling?

This is not a fantasy build, this will be a real build! If you all help me build the ultimate low deck engine, I will post everything from the beginning of the build, the dyno, to putting it in my dragster providing the ultimate results that really count - the ET!

Forget the long stroke engines. No need to use more than 4.25, the long stroke motors using the same heads doesnt run much if any better. I have built a few big bore and long 4.5 stroke engines both Hemi and wedge. The longer stroke is harder on parts for sure, lots more piston speed etc.
Build the largest bore engine you can get, use a 4.15 or 4.25 stroke, light weight stuff, and spin the engine some.
I would NOT use those heads in a "Ultimate Engine" however. No reason that they couldnt make 850+ HP pretty easy N/A though.
Set some power goals, and build around the heads.

I think my little low deck works pretty well Sell those heads and buy some good ones


525" KB Block, B1MC Oval ported heads flow 457cfm, 850 roller, 15-1 compression built using all the best parts yo ucan buy. Propels my hunk o junk to 8.0's and been 169.6 at 2940lbs. Needs more gear and better convertor to really run well.

As for the question BORE makes HP, stroke just moves it around and will ad some torque. To greatly over simplify thing. You do not need a ton of stroke to make big power. Both of my engines are short stroke big bore deals. At 1050+ and 1314hp they do ok. Both are also relatively small these days. Heck the 99 is smaller than most street BB's are anymore and the B1 is as well.

572ci low deck here.

My 557" with lowly -1 heads made 955hp...

I like the 4.5 bore w/ 4.375" stroke combo in a low deck with 6.635" rods.

No need for more cubes, just spin it up!

Cheers,

Arnie

THANKS everyone that's what I am looking for lots of advice and input from the people who build and run Mopar engines.I have a few good parts to begin the build and willing to spend some $$$ to try and build the "Ultimate" Low Deck engine.

Al if you have a spare set of them B1 MC heads you would like to donate to the project to prove your point I'll buy the pistons to use them.Are if want to get your hands on a nice set of 572-13 heads,who knows we might can do some trading. I just pick at you about your B1 stuff I know it is all Hi-$$$.I picked Indy over B1 because that's what everyone around here runs and knows how to make run. Better yet send me that L'ill Hemi engine(I always wanted a Hemi) to put in my light weight dragster and lets see just how fast it will run.

I think I can build anything from 528 cu in to 572 cu in. Everyone help me make the choice.

Definitely push rod oiling. I would build the motor with B1Mc heads, if I was doing it again. I left 150 hp on the table by staying with the 440-1 heads. My heads are all done at 900 hp.
What ever you do, keep the rotating weight down to a minimum. Spend the money on GOOD pistons, and head porting. I would be asking a lot of questions about still running stainless exhaust valves, going with Ti intakes. Set the Intake valve train up for some serious lift. If the heads flow better all the way to .900 , I would like to try a cam that could use them. That would mean a gross lift in the .950 range. To do that, an oversize cam core and bearings is probably needed. Only you can decide how far you want to go in that department. The higher the lift, the tougher it will be on parts. A tunnelram will make the most power. Dry sump would also help.
Edit; I see you already have 572-13s. They are short on port volume and limited on flow when you start talking all out best hp motors. They make good power to a point, but just can't compete with a bigger, straighter port and intake valve.

Thanks Greg, I am just about going to have to stay with the 572-13 heads.Having to buy a set of B1MC heads would take away to much of my $$$ and not leave enough to do much else.But might look into the Ti. intake valves. I already have a tunnel-Ram to use and will run alcohol,gas may be as good but I'm a Bracket-Racer and have to run the alcohol to keep it cool.My other engine has a true 15.3-1 CR, I should have ask this in the begining what is the best CR ratio to run?

Help me out everyone with some more good advice on the stroke,CR and camshaft choices. I want to get everything I can out of this build,with Horse-Power being #1 goal but do not want to go over the top and try and build a 9,000 RPM engine. I don't think 7200-7600 RPM would be to much.
This engine will be going in my dragster so it can handle all the HP a engine in this range can make and more.

Getting ready to start ordering parts 1st of next week to complete the build if. Still have not made my mind up on what cu in yet,I have a choice of 528 4.15 crank, 540 4.25 crank,558 4.375 crank, 572 4.50 crank.
Would a low deck 572 with the shorter rod,shorter pistons which should = much lighter bob weight with better rod geometry be more efficient than a RB with longer rod,s and pistons and a much heavier bob weight?

I have a fully counter weighted crower 4.25 stroke 440 main brand new in the box...if you go that way

Here is my 557ci build that made 955hp at 7,200rpm:

Bottom end:

Keith Black low deck (9.98") Aluminum block. 557ci w/ 4.5 bore.

4.375" stroke K-1 Crank counterwieghts turned .090" during balancing to clear bottom of piston skirt. Bobwieght is 2,221 grams.

Oliver Billet steel 6.635" rods w/ 2.20 rod journals, coated rod bearings.

Custom Diamond 15:1 compression pistons custom dome for -1 heads w/ 1.15" comp height, gas ported, H-13 tool steel .185" wall pins(fit at .002" for vaccuum pump) Total Seal .042" top ring/ .042" napier second ring and 3mm oil ring with 14# tension.

Charlies Alum oil pan w/ milodon dual #12 line, swinging pick up and Melling HV pump.

Top end:

2100cfm Ron's Terminator Alcohol Injection on a low deck Indy manifold (port matched).

440-1 Alum heads 345cc intake volume CNC ported by MCH, 382 cfm @ .800", K-Motion K-1000H Springs, Ti retainers.

1.7 ratio Jesel Pro individual shaft rockers, 7/16" .165" wall double taper Trend's w/ push rod oiling.

Custom LSM roller 288/304 dur @ .050", .875"/.867" lift, 114 lsa installed at 112 cl. 68 degrees overlap, 4/7 swap, 54mm core.

Headers: TTi 2" - 2 1/8" in chassis step headers 4" collectors, Star 4 vane Std Vacuum pump.

I ended up breaking the K-motion valve sprigs, so upgraded to #1224 PSI dual damperless springs, and Victory Titanium intake valves for this season. This should improve the reliability and spring life

Your heads have a little more potential if max ported, so you should be able to squeak out 1,000hp with a tunnel ram.

15 to 1 or as much as 15.5 to 1 is about right for Methanol IMO.

Cheers,

Arnie

Do a 572ci low deck and don,t look back.

cudabin,Thanks for sharing your build,it looks like you have a awesome engine. What lifters are you using,the Comp Cams lifters(may be the wrong choice for lifters) that oil through the lifters do not have the off-set? Thanks Again everyone for all the great info.

Yes they are Comp lifters, or at least built from the guy that makes them for Comp, and they pushrod oil and do have the offset intakes to straighten out the pushrods a bit...

They also oil the wheel to improve life expectancy, and the oil feed holes are parrellel to the wheel axle to restict oil to the top a little.

Got them from Brian and IMM ( OU812) I have 2 sets and will rotate them out after 150 runs...

I believe i have maxed out these heads, but a dry sump and a tunnel ram might pick it up a bit??

Should run 8.70's at 4,000 feet DA in my 2,850# Cuda if i can keep it hooked with the 10.5W's.

Good luck with the build.

Arnie

Thanks again cudabin,How do you get in touch with Brain and IMM? Thanks

cudabin, I found out how to get in touch with Brain,looks like he has a nice set of lifters for the Mopar engines.How many runs do you make before swapping out the lifters? I had a Comp lifter fail and was told I should never make over 125 passes before replacing them.

As for lifters what does everyone think about Crower Endurmax bushed roller lifters? Another member on here told me about them,but they are not cheap. I don't know if I can afford them or even need them with everything else I must buy.

Another question for everyone this engine has the Indy single line oiling system,I have been told in a 7000+RPM engine I needed to go to the dual line. Is this true? My other engine has the single line as well and has not given any trouble so far.But if it is needed I will change both of them over to the dual line system.

Hi,, i would go with the 4,530 ore 4,560 and a 4,375 stroke crankshaft with Chevy bb journals, and 6,635 Chevy BB rods in this low deck block.This is the perfect shortblock combo in my world.
Use K1 crank and rods if you go for steel rods. Oversize cambearings 55mm roller ore 60mm babbit, then you can go with allot off cam and spring pressure.
Piston with gas port and thin ,043 rings. Diamond ore Wiseco.
Do the short block right once, and then you dont have to rebuild it again.

Thanks Peter

I'm running behind but the block & heads are in the machine shop,in a few days I will post some flow numbers on the Indy c-n-c ported 572-13 heads.
I am having a little trouble finding 4.50 cranks with the standard Mopar rod journals.Also time to make my mind up on which brand crank to go with. Open to suggestions,I know a Callies is one of the best but also one of the highest price cranks.Not looking for the cheapest crank I can find,but would not mind one that would do the job just as well a few $$$ less. I have found a 4.375 crank,but was afraid I might give up a few HP by using it in place of the 4.50.
No finial decision on the camshaft,but must make one quickly. Open for suggestions.

Still looking for that Ultimate combination,before I finish buying all the parts!

Thanks again to everyone for their input and advise!

I would not go with the 4.5 crank. I would stick with the 4.375. With the 4.5 your pistons might stick to far out of the bottom of the bore. I had that problem with mine on the 4.375 and 6.535 rods. I now have 6.7 rods. The motor ran with the shorter rods fine, but upon teardown the piston skirts were skuffed from rocking at the bdc.

As far as counterweights hitting the piston at the bottom of the stroke, the typical problem is the piston pin boss, ie metal below the piston pin. This thickness varies a lot from one piston design to the next. My Ross 99496 pistons have 0.150", Wiseco K296A35 have 0.220", my Venolias have 0.180" (see attachment). Everything must be checked at assembly for clearance, but this is the math:

CWmax = Counter Weight max dia
Pthick= Piston thickness below the pin
Pin = Piston pin dia
Rod = Rod Length

CWmax = 2(Rod - Stroke/2 - Pin/2 - Pthick - Clearance)
For example:

CWmax = 2(6.575 - 4.50/2 - 0.990/2 - 0.180 - 0.60)
CWmax = 2(6.575 - 2.250 - 0.495 - 0.180 - 0.060 )
CWmax = 7.18" dia

That should work depending on the bobweight. I cut my Callies 4.250" down to 7.14" with a 2185 gram bobweight.

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The other concern is how far the piston will be pulled out the bottom of the cylinder with 4.50" stroke and 6.575" rod.

And the 4.375" stroke, 6.635" (BB Chevy journal) option:

CWmax = 2(Rod - Stroke/2 - Pin/2 - Pthick - Clearance)
For example:

CWmax = 2(6.635 - 4.375/2 - 0.990/2 - 0.180 - 0.60)
CWmax = 2(6.635 - 2.188 - 0.495 - 0.180 - 0.060 )
CWmax = 7.42" dia

The dia of the "cam cut" on my Callies 4.25" stroke crank was 7.32", with the rest of the counterweight larger. So you could design the piston with more meat, if desired (.220 vs .180)

My old pistons were 1.258 compression height with the 6.535 rods and 4.375 crank. Him wanting a 4.5 crank and his current rods 6.575 will give him a 1.155 compresion height. With alot less piston skirt to support at bdc from to short a rod letting the piston stick out at the bottom. The only way I could see him going with the 4.5 stroke is to get a longer rod at least a 6.635 which would give him a 1.095 compression height. With my 6.7 rod and 4.375 stroke I have a 1.093 compression height and the piston skirts are the same length. I am sure the engine will run with your current rods and the 4.5 stroke but with the pistons rocking at bottom you will eather have to rering it or get new pistons from time to time if they are out of shape from the rocking.

Thanks 440Jim,I have CP pistons now but was thinking about using Diamonds with this build.Now I will be checking the thickness of the pin boss when making my decision on which piston to use.Thanks Again!

Thanks Twin Turbo Mower, I do not want the pistons coming out the bottom of the bore far enough to cause a problem either. All of this is some very valuable information.Thanks again!

PS I am going to have to really do my home-work to stay on top of this build!

I used the diamond pistons both times. With the 6.535 rod I had to have the counter weights turned to clear the piston. I probably could have gotten away with it fine if I used the longer rod to begin with. The crank is a eagle crank with 440 mains and counter weights. The counter weights were turned down the the standard low deck size.

You mopar people crack me up!

Run titanium intakes valves, I ordered Victory intakes for my friend's B1 engine. They were really nice. I ordered him Isky Red Zone EZX roll lifters also, we will see how they go.

I too order a set of the isky redzone ez's a few weeks ago. Regular isky redzones are about 950, the solid busing option cost around 1350. I ordered the set with the offset intakes for my 572-13 heads. My old redzones were std seat location, that was with my 440-1 heads then. I would have just sent my old redzones in to get the solid bushing option but he said I had to order new ones since the could not change the seat location.

You are NOT loosing any HP on a 4.375 stroke compair to a 4.500,,, you got the same mabey moore but in a different rpm range.
K1 4,375 stroke with Chevy BB rod journal, the you have allot off rods to pick from.
4,500 stroke get you to short rods,,,,

I forgot to ask has you block been clearenced at the bottom of the bores where the main webbing is? If it is still square then you might have to do some grinding to clear the skirts of the pistons also.

Quote:

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1. Indy Maxx Aluminum Block finished deck height 9.965

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You didn't say, but unless you have a different INDY Maxx block than I have, there is no oiling to the lifter bores...so no pushrod oiling to the rockers is possible.