Moparts
ever hear a sound like this?
Posted By: 70Cuda383
ever hear a sound like this? - 02/26/12 09:29 PM
Tomorrow I'm going to get some rubber hose and see if I can narrow down the sound. Any of you heard anything like this?
first, no, it's NOT an accessory belt/pulley issue. I removed the belt and the sound was unchanged. I hooked the belt back up to circulate water with the pump after trying it without a belt.
Details are: stock 5.9L block, stock cast crank, new rods, new pistons, everything balanced together, edelbrock heads, and 1.6 adjustable roller rockers from Hughes. cam is 220/230 @ .050 114 LSA, hardened pushrods.
I didn't notice the sound initially, had some isues on first fire-up with the headers getting hot and starting to glow faintly, looked at cam timing and found it was 6 degrees retarded (never again will I just line up the dots!!!) advanced it with a different timing set and 2 degree key so it's now at 110installed centerline the way the cam card says it should have been originally.
noticed the sound after I got the rockers re-set and started the engine back up.
pulled the distributor out and spun it around, it feels fine, smooth, no squeeks when spun by hand. pulled oil pump drive shaft and it looks normal, wear marks are dead center on the teeth of the gear, and the bronze bushing in the block looks ok, so I don't think thats worn and causing mis-alignment issues.
tomorrow I'll pull the crank position sensor and check it just to be sure it hasn't moved and is rubbing on the flexplate, maybe kill a cylinder at a time and remove intake/exhaust to see if it goes away with any one cylinder, run a compression test, leak down test, and see where I'm at.
if I can't find anything, I'll probably be pulling the intake for a visual inspection, and probably take the timing cover back off again.
any ideas on what this sound might be? aside from the roller cam and rocker arms, the internals to this engine are the same as all the other LA small blocks out there.
http://youtu.be/oYVDffxuduk
Posted By: rickraw
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/26/12 10:03 PM
did u check to see if oil is getting to the top end??
Posted By: 340B5
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/26/12 10:10 PM
Kinda sounds like a dry rocker?
Posted By: chryco
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/26/12 10:15 PM
Your rocker shafts aren`t installed right and the sound is the rockers.
Posted By: VernMotor
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/26/12 10:16 PM
yea it sounds like something is dry. check all valvetrain and look at bushing in block for oil pump drive. maybe something rubing in the timing chain ? I have heard some strange noises out of fuel rails before also..But first hand I want to think it sounds like a dry rocker ??
Posted By: SCATPACK 1
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/26/12 10:25 PM
I thought rocker too. Can u pull a VC and try it to see if it is louder. Then try the other vc
Posted By: emarine01
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/26/12 10:30 PM
sounds bad.... I wouldn't run it too much, pull a valve cover and run the oil pump on a drill or @ least on the starter with the plugs out @ see if its oiling up top
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/26/12 10:34 PM
I'll check the rockers, I THOUGHT I remember seeing oil flying everywhere when I had it running -- I actually set the valve lash with it running, based on the advice of a lot of the other Dakota guys, got the stuff close enough to run, then as it was running, tightened down the lash and locked it up solid.
I sure hope it is just the rockers somewhere though, those are easy and right up on top!
the bronze distributor bushing looked good when I looked at it with a flashlight through the hole in the block, and like I said about the distributor/oil pump drive gear, the gear mesh pattern was right in the middle of the teeth, so I don't think the bushing is worn out causing slop there, otherwise the gears wouldn't be meshing properly, right?
these are the rockers I'm running:
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/produ...mp;partid=25423also appear to be the same as these cheap chevy rocker arms for $100 less:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SBC-GM-350-Chevy...ecc&vxp=mtr
Posted By: robnbird
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/26/12 10:39 PM
Quote:
I thought rocker too. Can u pull a VC and try it to see if it is louder. Then try the other vc
sounds like a rocker but did you take all of your belts off first just to see if that stops the noise. I have heard water pump brgs make that noise also.
Posted By: VernMotor
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/26/12 10:42 PM
do the heads have new guilds in them ? fresh heads ? maybe one of them is to tight ? just throwing out ideas here. new style heads so no rocker shafts right.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/26/12 10:44 PM
Quote:
do the heads have new guilds in them ? fresh heads ? maybe one of them is to tight ? just throwing out ideas here. new style heads so no rocker shafts right.
brand new edelbrock heads. stud mounted rockers, oil through pushrods.
and yes, although the belt is on in the video, I removed the belt, and the noise was still there
Posted By: VernMotor
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/26/12 10:51 PM
Well them heads are know to have to tight of guilds. OOB.. I took my apart before I put them on and check. my was ok. But I have read storys
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/26/12 10:57 PM
Quote:
Well them heads are know to have to tight of guilds. OOB.. I took my apart before I put them on and check. my was ok. But I have read storys
yea, so have I. might have just bit me in the butt, but my local machine shop shrugged and said "we run them out of the box all the time, they had problems when brand new, but they haven't had any quality problems in years." 
hope it's just rockers and not the valve guides.
is there a way to easily check that without taking the heads off? 
Posted By: VernMotor
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/26/12 11:18 PM
Well if you was careful.. and you got the tools to take the springs off. you could at lease get a feel for them. lot of diff ways to do this..I would not pull the head to check it out some.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/26/12 11:39 PM
Quote:
Well if you was careful.. and you got the tools to take the springs off. you could at lease get a feel for them. lot of diff ways to do this..I would not pull the head to check it out some.
I can use a leak down tester to pressurize the cylinder and keep the valves from dropping, right?
I have a "on head" spring compressor, ordered it for these types of heads (individual mounted rockers like on these Magnum engines) but I just haven't used it yet. what would I feel for though? just smooth movement? no binding or rubbing? how tight is "too tight"? --if the rockers all check out good...
Posted By: VernMotor
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/26/12 11:53 PM
well I would roll the cy up to TDC that I was checking and put some rope in the spark plug hole to keep the valve from falling. I say this because with air in there it is holding it tight and not let it fall down a little. so you can move it. you need to be able to slide is up and down and side to side to get a feel for it to see if it is to tight. I know this is not the corrected way to check them..but will give you some idea.I mean if you got push hard or pull hard to make it move you know it is to tight.
Posted By: moparacer
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/27/12 12:23 AM
Did you pull the belt off and try it?
I swear I have had idler pulleys screech just like that.
Posted By: emarine01
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/27/12 12:38 AM
I would think if you ran it with the covers off... you would remember cleaning up the mess
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/27/12 12:50 AM
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/27/12 12:51 AM
Quote:
I would think if you ran it with the covers off... you would remember cleaning up the mess
Not when you use a valve cover cut up to keep the mess down!
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/27/12 12:53 AM
Quote:
Did you pull the belt off and try it?
I swear I have had idler pulleys screech just like that.
I appreciate the help guys, but if you're not going to read what I have and have not done, then please don't bother. For the third time in this thread, yes I tried it with the belt off
Posted By: theraif
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/27/12 12:55 AM
is that one engine the wouldn't go above 3000 rpms?
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/27/12 01:20 AM
No. This one was reving great on the first fire-up. Straight to 5,000 rpm. But after headers were glowing a little, the guy who writes the EFI tune said that it's almost always from cam timing when the headers get hot like that,so i put a degree wheel and found that the dots lined up on this one put me at 116 installed intake centerline. Cam is on a 114 LSA, but is apparently supposed to be installed at 110, So I bumped it ahead 6 degrees.
The other engine I lined up the dots, but missed the correct dot, and ended up about 35 degrees off. THAT one wouldn't go over 3 grand, but is a-ok now
Needless to say, between these 2 trucks, it's been a rough couple weeks! And after these 2 engines, NEVER again will I just line up the dots!!
Posted By: 2QUICK4U
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/27/12 01:29 AM
almost sounds like the push rods are rubbing in the heads,is there enough clearence?
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/27/12 01:39 AM
Quote:
almost sounds like the push rods are rubbing in the heads,is there enough clearence?
I thought so, but will double check.
The heads do have guide plates though and I remember them looking tight in places, but it didn't feel like it was rubbing anywhere guess I can pull the pushrods out for signs of wear/rubbing
Posted By: Hot 340
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/27/12 01:49 AM
Well, did you pull the valve covers yet?
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/27/12 01:50 AM
Tomorrow
Family time tonight. Just getting ideas of things to look at tomorrow
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/27/12 08:34 PM
Ok, here's what I've found so far...
All rockers are getting oil it takes a few minutes of idle time, but eventually, oil flows through the rocker, fills up the middle and it spills over the roller tip and all over the valve.
pushrods do contact guide plates in a few spots, and have worn the black finish off in a few spots on the pushrods, but the metal is not galled up, there is no wear into the metal at all, it's still perfectly smooth to the touch. There is no room to adjust the guide plates, only option is to open the plates up a little bit so they don't rub.
LOTS of clearance through the head for the pushrods. holes are probably 7/16 or 1/2, and the pushrods are only 3/8, and are not anywhere near contacting the head anywhere, and there are no marks on the pushrods to indicate rubbing on the heads
removed the valve spring on the #2 exhaust valve, the valve is..."Sticky" is the best that I can explain it. I can move it up and down without much effort, but they do feel like they stick a little bit. without the valve spring on, I can let go of the valve, and it stays where I put it, it does not fall through at all.
--is that too tight? or "just right"?
there is wear on the valve stem from the roller rocker, indicating that the valves do not spin. should they spin like lifters do? I thought I've heard somewhere about valves rotating, but I don't see anything on this that would force them to rotate, especially with a roller rocker.
I'm going to open up the guide plates, maybe check a few more valves, and see what happens.
Posted By: FlyFish
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/27/12 08:58 PM
I heard this exact same sound years ago with a Mallory Unilite distributor. The rotor was sitting too low and rubbing the distributor body....not sure if this is your issue, but the sound is the same squeaking I remember.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/27/12 09:05 PM
Quote:
I heard this exact same sound years ago with a Mallory Unilite distributor. The rotor was sitting too low and rubbing the distributor body....not sure if this is your issue, but the sound is the same squeaking I remember.
stock distributor, EFI engine, but I'll check the rotor again. there's really nowhere for it to rub though, as there's the cam position sensor that's on a plate that's down into the body of the distributor, then the shaft sticks up 3 or 4 inches, and the rotor is up on top. there's nothing in between like on an electronic ignition distributor with the magnets and pick-ups etc.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/27/12 10:25 PM
did it again without the valve seal this time, and the stickiness is gone, but it's still..."firm" it moves smoothly, but it doesn't drop down under it's own weight.
Posted By: dvw
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/27/12 11:57 PM
I had a few GM engines with front cover oil seals that squeaked like your noise. Sometimes spraying the seal will temporarily quiet it to isolate the noise. I've had a few of them. Also had front axle seals with a similar noise.
Doug
Posted By: tubtar
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/28/12 02:18 AM
I'm thinking thvalve should drop from it's own weight , so the guide is definitely tight......that dimension shrinks up as the motor builds heat.
Whether it is too tight or not I don't know.
Or whether it would sound like that or not.
I think I'd be pulling the heads.
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/28/12 01:57 PM
IMO the guides are fine, you don't want them loose. 1.6 rockers take alot of clearancing to work right and cause extra wear, like I said in the past.
I don't see how you can set the valve lash accuratly with the engine running, almost impossible . IMO
I set mine with the intake off so I can see what I'm doing.
Good luck with it.
I now listened to your video, It sounds like the pushrods rubbing against the guide plates?
Can't believe Mopar went to stud mounted rocker arms and guide plates! chevy... I thought shaft mounted rocker arms was better??
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/28/12 01:58 PM
Quote:
I'm thinking thvalve should drop from it's own weight , so the guide is definitely tight......that dimension shrinks up as the motor builds heat.
Whether it is too tight or not I don't know.
Or whether it would sound like that or not.
I think I'd be pulling the heads.
Hmm...ok.
I'll check a set of stock magnum heads with 70K miles on them that I have here, and see how they feel so I have something to compare to, see if the valve falls through on it's own.
I think at this point, I'm going to finish trying to open up the pushrod guide plates so they don't rub, and run it, if it's still squeeks, then I'll pull the motor out, pull the heads and take them in for guide work, then pull the crank out and do the cam bearings, and then put it back together again.
I hate re-work!
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/28/12 02:23 PM
pull the valve covers and make sure your rollers clear. I had a set rubbing a set of moroso's...didn't sound like that but it was annoying.
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/28/12 03:27 PM
Wow. Sounds like there is a bird caught in there somewhere!
Only time I have encountered anything similar was with a 150,000 mile fan clutch, that would would lock up intermittantly....but you eliminated that kind of issue long ago.
I think you're looking the right place (stem to guide)
As a union trained master mechanic/machinist, tool and die maker with 30 years experience explained to me:
As a general rule of thumb, .0008" is a magic number as far as normal human, layman capability to "feel" clearance goes.
Clean, lightly lubed, near room temp, a wrist pin or a valve will usually fall through the hole under it's own weight at .0008".
If it wiggles, either it's looser than .0008" and/or the parts have an irregular shape (not straight/round).
If you have to push it through the hole with any pressure, it's going to be tighter than .0008" and/or the parts have an irregular shape (not straight/round).
That might sound silly but I have put it to the test, and have found it to always be correct.
I believe you're going to find the actual clearance is .0007, 7 ten thousandths of an inch or smaller.
Personally I want .001 to .0025-ish stem to guide for most street apps
To me, tight guides are an accident waiting to happen (what happens when a valve sticks open?) and could cost you an engine
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/28/12 04:14 PM
I have heard a similar noise from a chain tensioner in the timming set dry, dont know if your running that or not. Also have heard the converter bolts being a tad slightly loose, and causing a swueak. That was in a 4x4 truck, and he used lock tight and didnt really tighten them up good and tight, and they didnt bounce and knock, but squeaked a tad at idle.
Im sure you greased the oil seals before putting it together, or at least lubed them a bit, cause you would have burned the seal up if it was that dry and have oil everywhere. Also have replaced a few OE magnum distributors for a partially siezed/bent shaft causing the same noise.
Good luck, and BTW did ya take the drive belt off???
LOL
Kasey
Posted By: VernMotor
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/28/12 07:50 PM
Quote:
Good luck, and BTW did ya take the drive belt off???
LOL
Kasey
Dam you ! you made me get my keyboard wet !! LMAO
Posted By: Paul_Fancsali
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/28/12 10:14 PM
While you have th cap off oil the dist wick under the rotor. I had a noise like that and it was the dist itself making the squeeking. Ended up installing new bushings
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/28/12 11:02 PM
After some further inspection, the valve guides are not all that tight afterall. every one of the left bank is loose enough to fall though from their own weight. the #6 exhaust was tight, but after pushing it all the way in, and then back out, it's now loose enough to "fall through" I'm going to go back and double check the #2 exhaust to see if it's the same way, if maybe there's a speck of dirt or something thats making it a little snug.
so right now, 7 of the 8 valves on the even cylinders are loose enough to fall through the guide from their own weight.
here's how the pushrods look--the only sign of rubbing anywhere is on the guideplates that are secured by the studs that hold the rocker arms.
Still have the left/odd bank to go down...
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/28/12 11:05 PM
and, continuing the theme of my awesome luck... one of the rings on a valve seal broke.
I could replace it with one I have on the shelf here, but they are just a rubber cone, no rings.
if this one still holds tight to the valve and doesn't come up off the guide with the valve, would you run it, or replace it now?
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Posted By: rickraw
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/28/12 11:10 PM
those don't look like they would cause the noise. how's cam end play??
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/28/12 11:15 PM
Quote:
those don't look like they would cause the noise. how's cam end play??
I haven't pulled the timing cover back off yet, but if opening up the guide plates does nothing, I'll do that next.
what SHOULD the cam end play be? It has a plate that holds it in place, the only thing that really holds the cam is that plate that holds it from coming out the front, and the gear bolted to it that holds it from pushing in.
(edit, just looked it up, .002-.010)
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/28/12 11:33 PM
Boy that rear cam plug would have to be really F'ed up to cause a cam to be tight. Ive done it, and it sucks, but it didnt make that noise, it just made smoke come from the back of the engine where it was rubbing, then an oil leak from it spinning and falling out. BAD DAY by the way.
I hope ya find it, and hope its just not the headers/exhaust. My harley used to make some offley wierd noises from the exhaust, ended up being a bad header gasket is all.
Posted By: barracudabob
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 12:19 AM
I ran into one like this a few years ago. A guy had changed the lower pulley and used different bolts. They were too long, and hit the cover. They gouged out a nice circle in the cover(big block). Hope this helps, Bob
Posted By: JD Dart
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 12:23 AM
I had a noise like yours when I first put on guide plates and new push rods. Drove it around a bit noise went away.
Posted By: dvw
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 12:25 AM
Quote:
I have heard a similar noise from a chain tensioner in the timming set dry, dont know if your running that or not. Also have heard the converter bolts being a tad slightly loose, and causing a swueak. That was in a 4x4 truck, and he used lock tight and didnt really tighten them up good and tight, and they didnt bounce and knock, but squeaked a tad at idle.
Im sure you greased the oil seals before putting it together, or at least lubed them a bit, cause you would have burned the seal up if it was that dry and have oil everywhere. Also have replaced a few OE magnum distributors for a partially siezed/bent shaft causing the same noise.
Good luck, and BTW did ya take the drive belt off???
LOL
Kasey
Not true on the seals making the noise leaking. Every one I had was dry with absolutely no seepage.
Doug
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 12:31 AM
It definitely sounds to be central to rear of the engine. Sprayed WD40 in the distributor and put dielectric grease on the contacts of the distributor rotor and cam position sensor. No change. And there's absolutely no wobble/play in the distributor shaft
Tomorrow I'm going to pull the intake to look at the roller lifters. Maybe a roller is going bad
It's DEFINITELY not up front by the timing cover or dampner.
Posted By: tboomer
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 12:32 AM
Quote:
I ran into one like this a few years ago. A guy had changed the lower pulley and used different bolts. They were too long, and hit the cover. They gouged out a nice circle in the cover(big block). Hope this helps, Bob
Come to think about it...I had the same thing happen to me!! 
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 12:37 AM
Put that broken seal on the exhaust side
Posted By: hunterstroble
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 03:20 AM
possible a wrong cam bolt to thick hitting the cover? That happened to me once and it sounded similar. I doubt it but I was sure suprised to see what my noise was when I found it.
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 01:20 PM
Quote:
and, continuing the theme of my awesome luck... one of the rings on a valve seal broke.
I could replace it with one I have on the shelf here, but they are just a rubber cone, no rings.
if this one still holds tight to the valve and doesn't come up off the guide with the valve, would you run it, or replace it now?
I would use a peice of safety wire to hold that valve seal on. For the record, I'll bet there's nothing wrong with the valve guide clearance. I bet the noise is coming from the chevy guide plates.
When I installed my first set of Edlebrock heads, the guy on the tech line told me to run 1.5 rockers and use the cam with the lift and duration that I want. That way you don't have these issues.
Sold the 1.6 that I had and went with 1.5 crane gold rockers, all is well many years later.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 01:59 PM
Quote:
Quote:
and, continuing the theme of my awesome luck... one of the rings on a valve seal broke.
I could replace it with one I have on the shelf here, but they are just a rubber cone, no rings.
if this one still holds tight to the valve and doesn't come up off the guide with the valve, would you run it, or replace it now?
I would use a peice of safety wire to hold that valve seal on. For the record, I'll bet there's nothing wrong with the valve guide clearance. I bet the noise is coming from the chevy guide plates.
When I installed my first set of Edlebrock heads, the guy on the tech line told me to run 1.5 rockers and use the cam with the lift and duration that I want. That way you don't have these issues.
Sold the 1.6 that I had and went with 1.5 crane gold rockers, all is well many years later.
well, on the Magnum small blocks, factory ratio IS 1.6, with 1.7s being a common mod to make. so, I don't think I need to go to a 1.5 ratio rocker
the roller rockers I'm using are 1.6, the factory magnum ratio
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 02:02 PM
I was thinking that as I'm typing before, have never run magumun heads. I'll shut up now.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 05:03 PM
Have ya found anything else yet?
Just curious......
Posted By: emarine01
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 05:26 PM
Before ya get to the point of checking main bearings.... pull the plugs & valve covers and crank it on the starter
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 05:45 PM
I am CERTAIN he has done that already, probly a bunch of times.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 05:55 PM
problem is that I can't hear it over the noise of the starter, and when you rev it up, the exhaust noise drowns it out. I only hear it when running.
have not found it yet. pulled the starter/inspection cover and there are no signs of wear on the flexplate or cover.
today I'm going to try to eliminate lifters. I'm going to kill a cylinder at a time, unplug the injector so it's not shooting fuel, remove the spark plug so it's not building compression, and then remove intake/exhaust valve train one at a time.
Theory being that if it is a squeaky roller lifter, by taking the pressure of the valve spring off of it, that the noise might go away.
if that fails and I still hear the noise after releasing the load on all 16 lifters, one at a time, then I'm afraid I'm out of ideas on what to check, and will be forced to start taking stuff apart/off.
can a main bearing squeak like that? if a main was going bad/gone, wouldn't my oil pressure take a hit? pressure is solid and steady.
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 06:03 PM
Can't you run the engine without valve covers and listen with a peice of plastic tubing?
Is it possible to grab each push rod while it's running to see if anything changes?
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 06:25 PM
Quote:
Can't you run the engine without valve covers and listen with a peice of plastic tubing?
Is it possible to grab each push rod while it's running to see if anything changes?
I've been running it without the valve covers on. got a nice puddle of oil on the floor now from all the splash/splatter that flings off! haven't tried grabbing a pushrod though, I'm afraid to get TOO close to the moving parts and getting a body part pinched, cut, smashed, etc.
and it's hard to hold plastic tubing, screw driver, etc. up to a moving part to listen for the noise
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 07:31 PM
When the whole this is stone cold, have you gone over the exhaust pipes to see if they are rubbing on anything. I have a cummins exhaust clamp rubbing ever so slightly on a frame rail and it soulded like a robyn singing a song.
I know you said you checked the exhaust and stuff, but did ya check exhaust clearance?
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 07:37 PM
I haven't really fully checked all that out yet, but I know that statically, the exhaust doesn't touch anything. I've laid under it with it running to feel for exhaust leaks in the welds, so I had my hands around the pipes with it running, but I wasn't looking for contact/rubbing anywhere.
I can check that again as well, but I'm pretty sure that it's coming from inside the engine somewhere.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 08:50 PM
Just a thought. I know these things can drive you nuts!!
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 02/29/12 11:51 PM
man, thought I found it...but didn't.
passenger side header, the flange around the collector is up against the frame. hard.
loosened the header, slipped cardboard in there, fired it up. no noise.
wanted to duplicate the problem before calling it good.
loosened header again, removed cardboard, fired it up, and the chirping came back.
ok, so far so good...but paid close attention to that spot, and it really didn't sound like it was coming from there.
loosened header, slipped cardboard back in, and...chirping is still there.
all I proved with this, is that the noise is not there on cold fire up, but comes back when the engine gets some heat into it.
tried to kill a cylinder at a time with the plug out and one valve "in-op" by remving rocker and pushrod, but all that did was spray oil mist everhwere as the piston came up on every stroke.
might try again leaving the plug in this time, my only concern was pushing all that compression down past the rings without the exhaust vavle opening to bleed it off...maybe that's not actually going to happen, and it's no different than the normal compression stroke? (injector unhooked so it's not spraying fuel or firing at all)
used a rubber hose and listened EVERYWHERE I could stick that damn thing, and all I could hear through that was the "ocean sound" from sea-shells, and the faint "tippity-tappity" of the engine turning over. could not pick up a squeek through the hose from anywhere.
I'm trying to avoid pulling the intake, and I'd love to find the source of the sound before I pull stuff off/apart, but I'm running out of ideas here.
Posted By: rickraw
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/01/12 12:11 AM
i know u don't want to hear this, maybe pull engine & check everything out so u don't have some major malfunction.
i can't think of anything else.
Posted By: B_Body_Bob
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/01/12 12:32 AM
Quote:
used a rubber hose and listened EVERYWHERE
Borrow a stethoscope. Big difference.
Posted By: MoparDonny
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/01/12 12:47 AM
I know you mentioned you were going to, but did you end up checking the Crank sensor at the back of the block? Had many FWD's do that after putting them back in. They usually sound different than that but It would suck to pull it all apart for something on the outside. I wouldn't trust just looking at the flexplate for evidence, see if you can move it slightly away from the flexplate. The noise sounds way to constant to be a vlave guide or pushrod at that rpm.
Just ideas.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/01/12 09:39 PM
Quote:
I know you mentioned you were going to, but did you end up checking the Crank sensor at the back of the block? Had many FWD's do that after putting them back in. They usually sound different than that but It would suck to pull it all apart for something on the outside. I wouldn't trust just looking at the flexplate for evidence, see if you can move it slightly away from the flexplate. The noise sounds way to constant to be a vlave guide or pushrod at that rpm.
Just ideas.
I did check it and there was no signs of rubbing anywhere on it.
However,
I THINK I FOUND IT!!
#5 exhaust lifter...
tell me what you think...
http://youtu.be/AyMNnLeK17k
This thing had me about to go crazy today...I started it up and it ran for a good solid 10 minutes, with no squeak at all. I thought "that's weird...did it just go away?"
I was about to take it out and drive it around because after everything was good and hot, and several starts of the engine, I couldn't hear anything.
THEN it came back again.
ran the valves again on the passenger side, no change.
started to kill cylinders on the driver side and got to #5 and it went away.
a whole new set of lifters are on the way, and I'm not running this anymore before that #5 lifter drops the roller and bounces metal off the cam, crank, rods, etc.
Posted By: VernMotor
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/01/12 11:39 PM
wow ! well good you found it,,,get that intake off and look at that lifter..But you sure it not that rocker ?
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 12:01 AM
"wiping my forehead"
FEEEEW!!! Glad you found it!!
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 12:08 AM
Quote:
wow ! well good you found it,,,get that intake off and look at that lifter..But you sure it not that rocker ?
already swapped the rocker arm with another and the sound stayed with the #5 exhaust.
Posted By: rickraw
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 12:28 AM
nice trouble shooting. hope that solves the problem. let us know. seeya.
Posted By: CHAPPER
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 12:34 AM
Haven't commented on your problem,,just looking at the responses from time to time. Never actually had this problem or heard the noise in a 'running' engine,,but,,did have a friend have me come listen to an engine, on the assembly stand, no heads on it, and it made a squeeking sound once in awhile while being turned over by hand. I diagnosed it as a broken ring upon assembly. Turned out to be correct. Maybe when you are pulling plug wires and taking the pressure off that cylinder,,it is allowing the noise of a ring scrapeing the cylinder wall to go away..?? Maybe a leak-down test would show something
?? Just a thought...GOOD LUCK with your problem.
Posted By: Sport440
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 01:47 AM
In the Vid the #5 intake rocker is Barely moving compared to all the other rockers. That lobe may be shot as well. Unless its some kind of optical illusion.
Edit, Well , unless you disabled the intake rocker instead of pulling the plug wire to test that CYL.
Posted By: cudaboy
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 01:51 AM
I don't know, it still sounds like a belt noise to me. Did you remove the serpentine belt to see if that was it?????????
Dennis
LOL...
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 02:28 AM
Quote:
In the Vid the #5 intake rocker is Barely moving compared to all the other rockers. That lobe may be shot as well. Unless its some kind of optical illusion.
Edit, Well , unless you disabled the intake rocker instead of pulling the plug wire to test that CYL.
yup, #5 intake was backed off as well.
what I did, was I left the spark plug and plug installed, but unplugged the fuel injector so I wasn't spraying fuel at a cylinder I was "testing" I backed the intake rockers off first, then backed off the exhaust. On #5, once I heard the sound go away with the exhaust, I started playing with it, tightened it up, loosened it, tightened it, loosened it. every time it was tight with the valve working, the squeak was there. as soon as the exhaust valve was backed off, the sound went away.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 02:30 AM
Quote:
I don't know, it still sounds like a belt noise to me. Did you remove the serpentine belt to see if that was it?????????
Dennis
LOL...
Oh man, why didn't I think of that?! (runs out to garage to remove belt)
I'd have to go back and look at who said it again, I don't remember now, but the 3rd time someone said "look at the belt, it's probably the belt" when I clearly said in the opening post that I already tried that, and then said it again when someone missed the first post....I started to wonder if anyone knew how to read after the 3rd suggestion to remove the belt!
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 02:31 AM
OH, and believe it or not, I've actually re-tried it without the belt several more times since I started this post, just because I agree, it sounds like a dry pulley bearing!
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 02:40 AM
Quote:
Haven't commented on your problem,,just looking at the responses from time to time. Never actually had this problem or heard the noise in a 'running' engine,,but,,did have a friend have me come listen to an engine, on the assembly stand, no heads on it, and it made a squeeking sound once in awhile while being turned over by hand. I diagnosed it as a broken ring upon assembly. Turned out to be correct. Maybe when you are pulling plug wires and taking the pressure off that cylinder,,it is allowing the noise of a ring scrapeing the cylinder wall to go away..?? Maybe a leak-down test would show something ?? Just a thought...GOOD LUCK with your problem.
Thanks. I guess it couldn't hurt to run a compression and leak down test on that cylinder, but I'm not sure that holding the exhaust valve closed would take any pressure off the rings...
the sound was present with engine running and all 8 cylinders firing.
sound was present with engine running and #5 fuel injector unplugged, effectively creating a "dead" cylinder.
sound was still present after backing off the intake rocker, which I imagine, would have taken off ALL pressure from the rings, and actually put them into a massive negative pressure like when you downshift a manual transmission with a closed throttle.
sound finally went away once the intake rocker was backed off and the intake valve not moving, and the exhaust valve backed off and not moving. came back with just the exhaust rocker tightened back down, again, no fuel, no air just a "dead cylinder" with the exhaust valve opening once every 4 strokes.
but since I'll be pulling the intake, I might as well do a quick compression test, and a leak down.
by the way, on a leak down, does a piston really have to be at TDC, or can you just keep the valves closed by removing the rocker arms?
Posted By: Craig
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 02:58 PM
Quote:
by the way, on a leak down, does a piston really have to be at TDC, or can you just keep the valves closed by removing the rocker arms?
if the piston isn't right at TDC, the air pressure will push it down. Interesting read, and good troubleshooting, hope you are right about the lifter.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 04:17 PM
If you can lock the crank down some way from turning, its a good idea to do a leakdown in a few spots to see if there is cylinder taper, wear, or bumps.
They showed us how to do that at a Cummins training seminar, the "test" engine had zero leakage at TDC, but had a bad leak when the piston was about half way up. On a cummins you can lock the flywheel anywhere with a special cogged tool that goes in the flywheel.
You just have to make sure your in the compression stroke when you test this or the valves will bleed off all the air ofcourse.
Kasey
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 06:47 PM
I think it's safe to say at this point, that it's not a broken ring.
found most of it in the lifter valley laying in puddles of oil, but I'm gonna have to drop the pan anyway and have a looksee.
damn that's not going to be any fun, dropping the pan in the vehicle!
good news is that the cam survived fine. there is no wear into the cam at all. the lobe is still perfectly smooth to the touch, with just a visible wear pattern like all the other lobes. what's left of the roller was still rolling, which is probably what saved the cam. had that roller locked up and stopped turning, I may be looking at a full tear down, wash, re-assembly and cam swap.
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Posted By: pittsburghracer
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 07:03 PM
That's a good news bad news find. That could have turned real ugly real fast but at least now you only have a small amount of damage and expense. Good catch.
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 07:32 PM
Wow, from the looks of that picture...I don't see how the cam survived? And if it were me I take the whole thing out and apart and start over. You will never know if you got all the pieces out otherwise.
Proper lash/pre load is important.
Posted By: FastmOp
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 07:55 PM
Great save!
I thought it was a header rubbing.
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 08:00 PM
WOW! good save
Posted By: FlyFish
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 08:09 PM
Yikes! Well, at least you found your problem.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 08:48 PM
As long as there isnt any signs of very small metal filings, Id say you should be fine, but I think just for piece of mind, I would pop it appart, and check it closely.
Glad ya found it.
Kasey
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 09:17 PM
Quote:
Wow, from the looks of that picture...I don't see how the cam survived? And if it were me I take the whole thing out and apart and start over. You will never know if you got all the pieces out otherwise.
Proper lash/pre load is important.
the roller was still able to spin sitting like that. but it was rubbing and thus, the squeaking. the fact that the roller stayed rolling is what probably saved the cam. I already looked the cam lobe over very closely, wiped the oil away and felt with my finger. it is smooth to the touch, no signs of wear at all, other than the same visible wear pattern as what's on the rest of the lobes. if the cam had worn at all, it would have worn only as wide of a mark as that roller is wide, before getting into the rest of the lifter to start wearing the rest of the lobe. ...if that makes sense. the lobe is like, 1 1/4 inched wide, and the roller is only about 3/4 of an inch wide, and it rides right in the middle of the cam lobe. if the lobe had worn at all, it would have a big groove in it as wide as the roller.
no metal filings anywhere, just simple part failure and "big" metal pieces. I can see where the lifter body cracked and broke, allowing the lifter to come apart. oil is clean, not sparkley. so if there are any more pieces, they're at the bottom of the oil pan.
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 09:49 PM
The question is why did it happen in the first place?
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 09:54 PM
Quote:
The question is why did it happen in the first place?
one of 2 reasons I can figure.
A) I remember when I cleaned up the lifters (they were used before) one of them felt funny, sticky after I cleaned them and took them apart. however, after I re-oiled the roller, it felt normal, so I figured it was just a bit sticky from being dry.
maybe there was a bad needle bearing in the roller and it let go once it was subjected to the pressures of an open valve spring, and once that needle bearing failed, it took out the rest of the roller assembly.
or
B) when I re-did the cam timing (headers were glowing red initially, so I checked it and I was at an installed centerline of 116 on a 114 LSA, but turns out the cam SHOULD have been installed at 110 center line per the original cam maker) I might have knocked the side of the roller lifter from the cam lobe next to it, while the cam was sliding in and out of the block as I pulled and re-installed the cam gear several times, removed the stock cam key and installed a 2 degree offset key, etc.
Take your pick, but my money is one one of those 2 reasons right there, although I don't know for sure.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 10:15 PM
Quote:
can a main bearing squeak like that? if a main was going bad/gone, wouldn't my oil pressure take a hit? pressure is solid and steady.
I haven't read past this post but I know a rod bearing can , I spun a rod bearing and it made a noise just like that .
edit ... question , you say the roller still rolled ?? HOW with the axle gone ? or did you pop out the axle ?
Posted By: MattW
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/02/12 11:02 PM
Good find but after viewing the first video you need new wires. # 7 was arcing Bad against the valve cover
Matt
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/03/12 02:21 PM
Quote:
edit ... question , you say the roller still rolled ?? HOW with the axle gone ? or did you pop out the axle ?
I don't know how, the axle was gone, but apparently there was enough oil to allow it to keep turning. but when I pulled it out of the lifter bore, it would still rotate, it wasn't locked up solid.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/03/12 02:22 PM
Quote:
Good find but after viewing the first video you need new wires. # 7 was arcing Bad against the valve cover Matt
Um...they're brand new Firecore 50s, haven't even driven them yet. and where did you see arcing on the #7 plug wire I don't even see the #7 plug wire in the first video....
Posted By: MattW
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/03/12 02:40 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Good find but after viewing the first video you need new wires. # 7 was arcing Bad against the valve cover Matt
Um...they're brand new Firecore 50s, haven't even driven them yet. and where did you see arcing on the #7 plug wire I don't even see the #7 plug wire in the first video....
MY BAD # 8 around 1.22 into the vid. It LOOKS like it is arcing. Maybe I'm wrong.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/03/12 02:59 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Good find but after viewing the first video you need new wires. # 7 was arcing Bad against the valve cover Matt
Um...they're brand new Firecore 50s, haven't even driven them yet. and where did you see arcing on the #7 plug wire I don't even see the #7 plug wire in the first video....
MY BAD # 8 around 1.22 into the vid. It LOOKS like it is arcing. Maybe I'm wrong.
Ok, now I see it. I don't know....I'll have to ohm check the wire I guess, might have a bad one. if it is bad, I have no doubt that Rick will take care of it for me. like I said, this is a brand new set, zero miles, the only run time is the initial fire up on the engine and trouble shooting this sound.
I don't know that it's spark arching though, because that was a very rapid flashing, WAY faster than the engine RPM. not saying it's not the plug wire arching, but I don't see how it can be arching that "fast" when the engine is at idle
Posted By: MattW
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/03/12 03:05 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Good find but after viewing the first video you need new wires. # 7 was arcing Bad against the valve cover Matt
Um...they're brand new Firecore 50s, haven't even driven them yet. and where did you see arcing on the #7 plug wire I don't even see the #7 plug wire in the first video....
MY BAD # 8 around 1.22 into the vid. It LOOKS like it is arcing. Maybe I'm wrong.
Ok, now I see it. I don't know....I'll have to ohm check the wire I guess, might have a bad one. if it is bad, I have no doubt that Rick will take care of it for me. like I said, this is a brand new set, zero miles, the only run time is the initial fire up on the engine and trouble shooting this sound.
I don't know that it's spark arching though, because that was a very rapid flashing, WAY faster than the engine RPM. not saying it's not the plug wire arching, but I don't see how it can be arching that "fast" when the engine is at idle
I'm sure you will find out. Man that was a good catch on the lifter. I don't know If I would of found it before a major meltdown. GO BUY A LOTTO TICKET. 
What year is your truck? Matt
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/03/12 03:58 PM
mine is a 98. (5.9L Magnum whiplash cam, NV3500 stick shift, 3.92 gears, etc)
this one is a 99
I built this engine for a kid on the Dakota Forums, who lives up in Michigan. the whole thing started when he bought the cam off of me, and tried to have a local shop install it for him, they screwed everything up and he asked if I was willing to help him out, which snowballed into "hey, can you just pull the whole thing and rebuild it with edelbrock heads, more compression, etc"
stock stroke 360, Edelbrock magnum RPM heads, 10.7:1 compression, mid-length headers, dual 2.5" exhaust, 220/230 @ .050", 114LSA, installed at 110, it ought to be about a 450 crank hp engine, but going into a truck that's over 4000 lbs.
Posted By: sunroofgtx
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/04/12 06:12 AM
Wow, I saw that. I'm not that that was sparking. If it is, It's an amzingly hot coil. Good catch in the video. Amazing observation. Glad you caught that lifter.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/04/12 06:37 AM
Quote:
Wow, I saw that. I'm not that that was sparking. If it is, It's an amzingly hot coil. Good catch in the video. Amazing observation. Glad you caught that lifter.
Thanks Rick! I knew when I heard the squeak that something wasn't right. spent a solid week of frustration trying to figure it out. several times, I threw in the towel, said "_____ it" and went into the house to do something else.
glad I finally found it before it got REALLY bad! little bit of luck was on my side too, since when I found it, the axle and needle bearings were already gone, and it was just the roller and the lifter like in the picture. best I can figure, the only reason the roller stayed in place, was because it was "captured" by the lifter body, and held into place by the valve springs, and was getting enough oil to still allow it to spin, saving the cam.
As for the #8 wire sparking...I don't know that it was sparking, but then again, I don't know what that could have been on the video. I'll ohm the wires out and let you know what I find, but I think the wires are ok. the coil is NOT a "hot" coil by any means...it's the original 99 Dakota coil, same as all the other magnum engines, and it has 70K miles on it.
I was actually looking at getting a hotter coil like an MSD to bolt in place over the stock one, but don't know if it's a good idea to run an aftermarket coil on the stock ignition, and I don't know if the owner of the truck wants to spend money on an MSD6 box. I'd push him towards one of your coils so I could try them out, but we gotta keep the stock coil because that's where the cam position sensor is, which is what tells the computer when to fire the fuel injectors.
Posted By: Leigh
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/04/12 02:26 PM
Good to see it isn't something that will cost bookoo bucks. Too bad, it wasnt' the drive belt, eh?
Posted By: sunroofgtx
Re: ever hear a sound like this? - 03/04/12 05:54 PM
Tom, ohming the wires will not show if it is arcing through the insulation. Just look and inspect the wire around the suspected area. While idling, mist some water in there. You'll now right away if it is indeed arcing. I wonder if the sharpness of the valvecover cut in? If it is arcing, there will be gray streaks, and the silicone might be crispy. Let me know either way. Thanks. Good luck on start up.
