$10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/23/12 03:37 PM

You're just now noticing this?

Good morning, and welcome to 2006

The factory hasn't made any cheap, brand new 5.9s since 2002. MP used up everything the factory made for a few years, sold many $6000 dollar crate motors based on factory engines and when they were gone that was that, which was circa '06.

The foundation for the higher priced engines is a brand new
$3000 dollar race block, Scat/K1/Diamond forged lower end components, Edelbrock heads (in the case of the 440, a special casting), and they're built by Gary Stanton Racing Engines.

Please feel free to try to duplicate any of them with all brand new parts, paying a professional to machine, build, dyno test and warrantee it, and let us know how that works out

Meanwhile...if you want a lower priced crate motor, try a brand new 425HP 6.1 HEMI for $6440 retail. Anywhere a small block will fit, a 6.1 Hemi will fit. Ask Jegs to tell you all about P5155437. The factory doesn't make those anymore either, they switched to 6.4 so get one while they're hot.

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/23/12 03:48 PM

Mopar 6.1L Hemi
425 HP / 420 ft-lb Torque
Without Engine Management System

What's the "engine management system? Harness/computer? Can you get it w/ the injection?

Posted By: mr_340

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/23/12 04:03 PM

I can remember when the 426 crate Hemi's went for $9995 and thought the 528 crate Hemi's were crazy at $13,995. Going back to the 1970s, I remember seeing ads for Gratiot Auto Supply selling Hemi shortblocks for $800. I need to find Mr. Peabody and take a trip in the Way Back Machine.

Posted By: HPMike

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/23/12 04:07 PM

hmmmm....

Sounds like I don't charge nearly enough for my engine builds..

Posted By: MattW

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/23/12 04:30 PM

Quote:

You're just now noticing this?

Good morning, and welcome to 2006

The factory hasn't made any cheap, brand new 5.9s since 2002. MP used up everything the factory made for a few years, sold many $6000 dollar crate motors based on factory engines and when they were gone that was that, which was circa '06.

The foundation for the higher priced engines is a branyd new
$3000 dollar race block, Scat/K1/Diamond forged lower end components, Edelbrock heads (in the case of the 440, a special casting), and they're built by Gary Stanton Racing Engines.

Please feel free to try to duplicate any of them with all brand new parts, paying a professional to machine, build, dyno test and warrantee it, and let us know how that works out

Meanwhile...if you want a lower priced crate motor, try a brand new 425HP 6.1 HEMI for $6440 retail. Anywhere a small block will fit, a 6.1 Hemi will fit. Ask Jegs to tell you all about P5155437. The factory doesn't make those anymore either, they switched to 6.4 so get one while they're hot.

See what I mean.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/23/12 04:53 PM

Quote:

I can remember when the 426 crate Hemi's went for $9995 and thought the 528 crate Hemi's were crazy at $13,995. Going back to the 1970s, I remember seeing ads for Gratiot Auto Supply selling Hemi shortblocks for $800. I need to find Mr. Peabody and take a trip in the Way Back Machine.

There were probably guys standing around gas pump back then whining that $800 for a Hemi shortblock was too much money!

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/23/12 05:00 PM

I understand about the 10k but for that price bump up the cam and compression a little so the HP number does not look so lame, those parts could handle another 10-20 degrees duration, a tad more lift and another point of compression and another 50 hp would help them sell a bunch more and cost virtually nothing else. The only problem is the HP/$$ ratio is way out of whack.

As for the Hemi, it don't exactly go any where a SB will, that is a very deceptive statement, mabey the engine is cheaper but add in special motor mounts, headers, controllers, flex plate/flywheel, fuel pump... it adds up super fast and costs more than the 10k SB to go in the same car.

All those BB builds you guys are posting up that are cheaper are re-builds not new, a NEW BB will cost as much as the SB and make your car handle worse.

Posted By: viperblue72

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/23/12 05:58 PM

I agree that with all new parts the price goes way up fast. But my only point being the hp/$ is outrageous. Nobody in their right mind is gonna buy one.

Maybe its just generation hemi for the small block crowd

Posted By: 1Fast340

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/23/12 06:37 PM

great another thread full of mopar cheapskates.

those prices are not bad at all if you look at what you get for the money. they are actualy very reasonable especialy considering the low volume, if people stoped being so darn cheap and realise the value and buy them instad of bitshing about the price i could see the prices being possible ot bring down but not as long as everyone is just complaining when they get a pretty fair deal

Posted By: viperblue72

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/23/12 07:56 PM

Quote:

great another thread full of mopar cheapskates.

those prices are not bad at all if you look at what you get for the money. they are actualy very reasonable especialy considering the low volume, if people stoped being so darn cheap and realise the value and buy them instad of bitshing about the price i could see the prices being possible ot bring down but not as long as everyone is just complaining when they get a pretty fair deal

So buy a few up and take one for the team.

When I don't want to spend 10k for a 400 horse 360 I guess I'm just a cheapskate

I would call someone who would buy one foolish.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/23/12 08:58 PM

The point is that you really can't build a new engine using all new parts for any less than that. Sure, you can buy a core off of craigslist for $500 and put $5000 into it and have roughly the same power, but that isn't the same deal.

That 427 we did last year was all new parts and it was $18,000 out the door. It was a really good engine, but it wasn't Pro Stock type parts. It used a K1 and JE rotating assembly, CNC ported Edelbrock heads, roller cam, good valvetrain parts, Victor intake, Holley carb, etc.

Posted By: viperblue72

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/23/12 09:08 PM

NONE of those high dollar parts are at all necessary for a low horsepower 360. I think we all know where that engine program is going if something doesn't change. No ones gonna buy.
No offense but the 427 you built isn't a comparison. Its probably 50% more horsepower.

The last engine I built was a 408 with indybrocks and was very reliable and full roller. I had 6500 to 7000 in it.
If you all think 10k 360s that are 400 horsepower are gonna sell you're out of your minds.

Posted By: Duner

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/23/12 09:11 PM

The next time I need a "new" smallblock - I'm going with the 6.1 Hemi. SOOO much potential right from the start.

Posted By: dusturbd340W5

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/23/12 10:06 PM

Quote:

wow those are crazy prices. You could build a 700hp 440 for 10k. That's a ton of cash for a SB. Sorry 15-18k for a small block, unless it was a "rule" thing no way I'd drop that kind of cash into one. You could probably do a Hemi for that kind of money.
I thought there was a company selling a 500hp BB for 5k not to long ago?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Big-Block-Mopar-...=item5647506ae4 525HP just under 7k
http://www.ebay.com/itm/470-CID-Mopar-st...=item3cc294d4f8
600HP under $6000
Why on earth would anybody buy any of those units form MP?

Quality = $$$$$ look at those motors you listed not real high quality parts doing a quick look I seen they had cheapo KB hyper pistons a stock used crank and rods stock block I mean nothing special

now look at my quality race motor

1- 4 bolt X-block = 1800.00
1- new challies crank = 990.00
1- set custom diamond pistons = 1000.00
1- comp custom solid roller = 300.00
1- set crane solid roller lifters = 550.00
1- set scat h beam rods = 350.00
1- set CNC indybrock heads with
Ferria valves,pac springs,
pac titanium retainers = 3500.00
1- set harland sharp rockers = 700.00
1- billet roller chain and gears = 100.00
1- ATI dampner = 400.00
1- set ARP head studs = 150.00
1- set ARP main studs = 75.00
1- used M1 intake ported = 175.00
1- set Cometics = 150.00
1- oil pump = 50.00
1- used milodon pan/ new pick up = 150.00
1- new timing cover = 150.00
1- set manton push rods = 125.00
1- machine shop bill = 1100.00
-----------------
total 11,715

and that does not include the rest of the gaskets,or the valve covers,carb,distributor,plugs wires ect ect

but I had a motor making well over 600 hp that was very reliable always ran the number and had less than 3% leakdown after 150 passes and the new owner is still beating on it and as long as he takes care of it it will last a long time.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/23/12 10:09 PM

Quote:

NONE of those high dollar parts are at all necessary for a low horsepower 360. ...

That new MP block is way overkill for a 400 hp motor.

Why not build these lower HP motors out of the Mopar Reman. motor line/division?

Does Mopar sell Reman. LA360's?? If not, why not compete with Jasper and others?

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/23/12 10:21 PM

For comparisons...

What is the street price of Jasper's Panther 360 Crate motor? 375hp/423tq

http://www.jasperengines.com/pdf/MOPAR_360_Panther_Crate.pdf

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/23/12 11:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

wow those are crazy prices. You could build a 700hp 440 for 10k. That's a ton of cash for a SB. Sorry 15-18k for a small block, unless it was a "rule" thing no way I'd drop that kind of cash into one. You could probably do a Hemi for that kind of money.
I thought there was a company selling a 500hp BB for 5k not to long ago?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Big-Block-Mopar-...=item5647506ae4 525HP just under 7k
http://www.ebay.com/itm/470-CID-Mopar-st...=item3cc294d4f8
600HP under $6000
Why on earth would anybody buy any of those units form MP?

Quality = $$$$$ look at those motors you listed not real high quality parts doing a quick look I seen they had cheapo KB hyper pistons a stock used crank and rods stock block I mean nothing special

now look at my quality race motor

1- 4 bolt X-block = 1800.00
1- new challies crank = 990.00
1- set custom diamond pistons = 1000.00
1- comp custom solid roller = 300.00
1- set crane solid roller lifters = 550.00
1- set scat h beam rods = 350.00
1- set CNC indybrock heads with
Ferria valves,pac springs,
pac titanium retainers = 3500.00
1- set harland sharp rockers = 700.00
1- billet roller chain and gears = 100.00
1- ATI dampner = 400.00
1- set ARP head studs = 150.00
1- set ARP main studs = 75.00
1- used M1 intake ported = 175.00
1- set Cometics = 150.00
1- oil pump = 50.00
1- used milodon pan/ new pick up = 150.00
1- new timing cover = 150.00
1- set manton push rods = 125.00
1- machine shop bill = 1100.00
-----------------
total 11,715

and that does not include the rest of the gaskets,or the valve covers,carb,distributor,plugs wires ect ect

but I had a motor making well over 600 hp that was very reliable always ran the number and had less than 3% leakdown after 150 passes and the new owner is still beating on it and as long as he takes care of it it will last a long time.

but any of those BB's will run just as long and make more HP...with cheap pistons, stock re-used cranks and all. Even w/ new parts you can do it for way under 10k and have much more motor. That is a retail price. Nothing more.

Posted By: Performance Only

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/24/12 12:14 AM

it's interesting to see what the majority mindset is on a subject like this.
(1) not everyone has tons of used engine parts laying around to cobble a motor together.
(2) not everyone wants a used motor
(3) not everyone has the experience and tools to build a good engine on their own, for them a crate engine makes sense on a number of levels
(4) the MP crate motors aren't making big horsepower, but they start with a solid foundation that will respond very well to a variety of upgrades.
i could literally go on and on, but i know it would be pointless.

heaven forbid if MP (or anyone else) were to actually make a profit. i have a lot of Mopar customers and believe it or not, most of them are NOT Moparts members. sometimes it's easy to forget that the whole Mopar world does not revolve around this website.

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/24/12 12:38 AM

Quote:

it's interesting to see what the majority mindset is on a subject like this.
(1) not everyone has tons of used engine parts laying around to cobble a motor together.
(2) not everyone wants a used motor
(3) not everyone has the experience and tools to build a good engine on their own, for them a crate engine makes sense on a number of levels
(4) the MP crate motors aren't making big horsepower, but they start with a solid foundation that will respond very well to a variety of upgrades.
i could literally go on and on, but i know it would be pointless.
heaven forbid if MP (or anyone else) were to actually make a profit. i have a lot of Mopar customers and believe it or not, most of them are NOT Moparts members. sometimes it's easy to forget that the whole Mopar world does not revolve around this website.

I think the "jist" of the post is that is would be koo koo to pay 10k for a 405hp motor. I don't care who made it or what brand it is.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/24/12 12:53 AM

And the counterpoint is that it doesn't really matter what people think the price should be.

Like it or not, $10K is what it costs these days to build a non-production Mopar V8 engine with new parts in low volume.

Posted By: dusturbd340W5

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/24/12 01:35 AM

oh and trust me i shop everybody i could and got the best prices that could be had at the time.

Posted By: dusturbd340W5

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/24/12 01:37 AM

I have also seen more that 1 person post there big dollar BB builds here that didn't run as well as my little 416

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/24/12 02:09 AM

"well lets see the X-block will be here long after that stock BB has cracked the main webs any way you look at it the Callies crank is 10 times better than that heavy stock crap the forged Diamonds will last long after those KB's take a crap but to each there own but go out and buy the same quality parts for that BB and see what the total is.
I wanted top QUALITY and nothing less and that's what I had."

I don't think you need all that to make a reliable 400 hp even in a small block. Parts are pretty much the same cost give or take for BB vs SB. As is machine work. FWIW I wouldn't pay 10k for 500hp BB.

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/24/12 03:10 AM

To do reman, you need 1000 viable cores per year for 3 years, anything less is a waste of time. 360LA engines are out. You aren't going to get there with 360LA.

Next? 5.9 magnum. When the OE ran out of 5.9 engines, MP switched to .020 over reman with magnum RT heads and rated at 390HP. All new internals purchased at considerably higher prices than the OE, low volume machining, and resulting higher MSRP....but still very popular.

So popular, that backorders piled up. At one point there was an 8 month wait. Why? 4 out of 5 stock 5.9 blocks went to scrap because they were either cracked, overheated just shy of melting, or were too thin to go .020 over.
Core viability. Time to move on.

Reman does not work, the end

There is absolutely nothing deceptive about my statements
re: Gen 3 hemi. 6.1 or 5.7 fits in any car or truck that originally came with a 318, period.
If you're too cheap to buy headers, find some stock manifolds that will fit, cut and weld 6.1 tubular manifolds until they will work, or use Hooker headers instead of TTI. If you're too cheap to buy a computer, use a megasquirt, solder it together yourself at the kitchen table. If you're too cheap to buy two new carbs to put on an Edelbrock dual quad manifold, do like I did, buy a pair off ebay and rebuild them. If you're too cheap to buy motor mounts, buy the mounting plates off of ebay and weld them up yourself. Money can be saved in 1000 places and the end result can still be great. Still not reasonable enough? Then don't do it....but don't complain Gen 3 costs a fortune when you aren't willing to homebrew anything.

Those suggesting cams and compression are on the right track...but please try to consider the end result when a customer puts an 11.5:1, 260 @ .050, .650 lift 360 engine into his loaded b body with air conditioning, power brakes, a stock torque converter, a 600cfm carb, stock exhaust manifolds, 3.23 gears, puts 87 octane gas in it, and uses a Wal Mart motor oil with a Quaker State filter. Do you really think he will be happy with it? Do you think he has any clue how to tune it? How long do you think it will last in that application? Just because you and I know better doesn't mean everyone else does.

I know how to be cheap. I have maybe 5k into my 451 low deck, it has a very nicely machined 1972 engine block and a reworked 1969 crankshaft in it, as well as many other used/reworked parts. It also has 10.75:1, and .630 lift. I have fun with it, I think 123mph is fairly respectable for what it is, and having built it myself at home I take some pride in it. I also think it would be the most miserable crate engine you ever saw.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/24/12 06:13 AM

Quote:

To do reman, you need 1000 viable cores per year for 3 years, anything less is a waste of time. 360LA engines are out. You aren't going to get there with 360LA.

Next? 5.9 magnum. When the OE ran out of 5.9 engines, MP switched to .020 over reman with magnum RT heads and rated at 390HP. All new internals purchased at considerably higher prices than the OE, low volume machining, and resulting higher MSRP....but still very popular.

So popular, that backorders piled up. At one point there was an 8 month wait. Why? 4 out of 5 stock 5.9 blocks went to scrap because they were either cracked, overheated just shy of melting, or were too thin to go .020 over.
Core viability. Time to move on.

Reman does not work, the end ...

Thanks for the explanation. Makes since. So Mopar Reman. Div. doesn't even sell stocker roller 360 long/short blocks?

Zippy, what is the difference in the "breeding stock" from a core magnum block to the reman plant door as compared to a core the guy buys one out of the junkyard or swap meet.

I've got some assumptions on the differences, but I'd rather hear it from someone that is closer to the process.

Posted By: A57_RT

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/24/12 07:04 AM

Mixed thoughts on the prices but it is what it is. I find it odd we are all mopar guys and the constant "Well I could have a BB for that" gets a bit old.

Has some ever thought its a simple choice/preference to build and run small block strokers vs BBs or Hemis?

Does the 440 guy want a hemi even if the money is there, not all....

Would the 440 guy be thrilled with enough added stroke to end up with a 512 or 528 inch motor, yes, however then you have to build around the bigger stroke, heads, ect and it would all add up.

If your 528 could make 1.5 per thats almost 800hp to build around, I dont know if a stock 440 block could take that power level so here again build to the max power output. So more money.

Then is your trans up to it? Your rear...to take 800 hp and a boatload of tq? Chassis?

Yes these are all raw figures but weather a simple 600hp small block or a 800hp BB stroker, put in all the factors and its not cheap either way.

For most a high torque small block with a 4 inch or more stroke is more then enough for a a body, e body and even f body cars, and some at 1/2 inch more stroke then a std 440, but still a 440 inch motor off a 4.250 or so arm says alot in the tq dept. Gotta have the trans/rear to match it as well.

Sorry for the rant and a bit off topic but so many just dont understand its a choice to run a small block vs a BB, its not like they only sell 500 BB build cards a year and only the few get BB motors.

My point is at the end of the day, if a guy wants to dump 10. 15, 20 in a big inch small block, its his cash and choice to be different.

Really I dont see too many ford or chevy guys complain over the cost of there parts, not so much as they are way cheaper but its they are dedicated to there brand.

If running a mopar causes so much pizz and moaning over costs, cash in and build a cheaper chevy/ford.

Posted By: racealittle

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/24/12 02:12 PM

The cost of building a 5.9 OE for the factory was about $1,100 in 2010. That is the approximate figure that we used for all paperwork when I was a shipper at PRTAP (B van plant). That is why the original crate motors were affordable.

The average car guy only needs a crate motor to be happy with his ride. Many bought the more agressive crate 5.9 engines and detuned them. Not every one is a hard core racer that needs, wants, or even knows what to do with more power. The original crate motors were a bargain at $2-3,000. That was 12 years ago or more, get over it, the world has changed again.

Zippy is correct in his thoughts and observations. The new generation of hemi is the crate motor to look at now from a cost perspective for those who don't have 20 to 40 years of oldschool experience and thinking.

Mopar Performance is trying to provide what it thinks the market is asking for. Unfortunately, that is what it costs. Is your time, manpower, marketing, transportation, shop cost, etc. free?

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/24/12 04:36 PM

Not 100% sure on "pure" reman, last time I talked applications with someone in that group they did sell
1990-ish era la engines but that was two years ago.

Demand differences beween reman and performance crate engines...under the right conditions: low price, economy is not in the toilet, folks aren't scared off by new technology, gas isn't 5 bucks a gallon and so on.....are pretty dramatic.

Let's say I need a 5.9 core to build up. I might find a wrecked 2002 truck in a yard around here, though most yard vehicles are newer. I can see whether it has oil and coolant in it. I can see if it has been hit in the front.

The big volume salvage yards will sell everything they can get their hands on, whether it has been burned in a fire, it has oil or coolant or not, it has been hit really hard in the front, and so on. They don't care, they just want to get paid. Given the nature of their business, I can't blame them. Can't really control what comes in the door at the reman facility.

Posted By: 2734bbl

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/24/12 06:33 PM

I work at an all Chrysler/ Jeep / Dodge salvage yard I can tell 3.9/5.2/5.9 Magnum motors are getting hard to find and one under 100K is going to be expensive and the demand is growing everyday.

A lot of times these vehicles are hit in the front (duh) and the cooling is bad or the wiring is smashed. So as Zippy stated it's sometimes tough to determine the health status(cylinder head issues mostly) of the engine but I sell every one of them that comes through the door and our core buyers dont haggle on price they just take them all on site.

As a side I think 10K is alot of money for a "crate motor" but at least for us Mopar guys other than sourcing your own parts and taking them to a builder it may be the only way.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/24/12 07:27 PM

Quote:

Not 100% sure on "pure" reman, last time I talked applications with someone in that group they did sell
1990-ish era la engines but that was two years ago.

Demand differences beween reman and performance crate engines...under the right conditions: low price, economy is not in the toilet, folks aren't scared off by new technology, gas isn't 5 bucks a gallon and so on.....are pretty dramatic.

Let's say I need a 5.9 core to build up. I might find a wrecked 2002 truck in a yard around here, though most yard vehicles are newer. I can see whether it has oil and coolant in it. I can see if it has been hit in the front.

The big volume salvage yards will sell everything they can get their hands on, whether it has been burned in a fire, it has oil or coolant or not, it has been hit really hard in the front, and so on. They don't care, they just want to get paid. Given the nature of their business, I can't blame them. Can't really control what comes in the door at the reman facility.

That's sort of what I assumed. The bulk core business gets a lot of junk to weed through.

Although, Jasper obviously has a strong reman program in general. And I know they compete heavily with OE Remans for independent repair shop business. Wonder if Jasper have the same magnum 360 core issues.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/24/12 07:31 PM

Quote:

I work at an all Chrysler/ Jeep / Dodge salvage yard I can tell 3.9/5.2/5.9 Magnum motors are getting hard to find and one under 100K is going to be expensive and the demand is growing everyday.

A lot of times these vehicles are hit in the front (duh) and the cooling is bad or the wiring is smashed. So as Zippy stated it's sometimes tough to determine the health status(cylinder head issues mostly) of the engine but I sell every one of them that comes through the door and our core buyers dont haggle on price they just take them all on site.

As a side I think 10K is alot of money for a "crate motor" but at least for us Mopar guys other than sourcing your own parts and taking them to a builder it may be the only way.

Interesting info directly from that side of the business. Thank you.

Do you think the cly head issues wipe out a lot of potential 360 magnum cores?

Posted By: 2734bbl

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/24/12 08:37 PM

5.2 and 5.9 have the same head. There are a lot more 5.2 than 5.9 motors.

Me personally Ive had 12-15 vehicles with 5.2/5.9 motors and as yet not had one have a prob with the heads.I have a friend that works at a machine shop who claims to see it frequently.

I have however, had to fix the plenum gaskets on 5 or 6 and sometimes I think this is an useen factor to failure.When it goes bad it sucks oil out of the valley and into the intake manifold and is sometimes hard to detect by people who don't know what to look for. People just run them low or out of oil and burn them up, or when the gasket goes bad they run lean and detonate and people continue to drive them in disrepair.

3.9L dont seem to suffer these problems as much.

Posted By: dusturbd340W5

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/24/12 08:53 PM

Quote:

"well lets see the X-block will be here long after that stock BB has cracked the main webs any way you look at it the Callies crank is 10 times better than that heavy stock crap the forged Diamonds will last long after those KB's take a crap but to each there own but go out and buy the same quality parts for that BB and see what the total is.
I wanted top QUALITY and nothing less and that's what I had."

I don't think you need all that to make a reliable 400 hp even in a small block. Parts are pretty much the same cost give or take for BB vs SB. As is machine work. FWIW I wouldn't pay 10k for 500hp BB.

you dont need all that for 400hp but mine was pushing close to 650 hp and if I am going to do something I want the BEST that I can afford.
I had every billet and roller piece you can get in my 727 and I had 5000 in it and I ran a transmission shop so I got every thing as cheap as it could be gotten.But again it was the best you could get and as close to bullet proof as you can get.
But that is me build what I want how I want it and try to build it 1 time and never look back.

Posted By: dogdays

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/24/12 11:23 PM

Zippy, I salute you for daring to speak the truth. Another factor that no one mentioned is the Autozone short block doesn't have the expectations tied to it that a MP crate motor has, so your bulk rebuilder can probably use a lot more of the cores. And, for the homebuilder, your typical 25-year-old going into a yard picks the motor and doesn't look at it that hard, rebuilds it and has that pride of accomplishment that covers up all the little hiccups or side trips. So comparing the Autozone rebuilt engine or the self-built engine to a MP crate motor is fallacious.
Now I am interesteed to hear that the new Hemi will fit into anything that a 318 came in, saves a lot of checking. Looks like I'll have to start keeping an eye on the local Craigslist for the next good motor for my ride.

R.

Posted By: Pat_Whalen

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/25/12 12:19 AM

Quote:

Me personally Ive had 12-15 vehicles with 5.2/5.9 motors and as yet not had one have a prob with the heads.

I can personally guarantee you that at least one of, if not more than one, your 12-15 5.2/5.9 engines had a crack between exhaust seats

It is a very well known problem when looking for a viable core. It's also something that you most likely won't notice on a used engine until you're looking for a set of OE heads that can magnaflux and not be cracked.

Posted By: Crazy68Dart

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/25/12 02:14 AM

Whatever parts are involved, brand new, etc. most of the types that are going to go out and buy a crate motor, be it no time, convenience, no skills, etc, are going to look at this and scratch their head.

Given the parts I understand *why* it is 10k, but it is not good for the Mopar brand.

You can go get a bowtie or blue oval motor that makes the same power for approx half the cost. The majority of people don't necessarily care that it is a brand new block and all new parts. If it runs good and lasts 400 hp is 400 hp to most people.

Posted By: 11secdart

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/25/12 03:37 AM

Wow! my 360 crate short block was around $13-1500 ( I wish they were still available) and Yes It had to come apart before use.

Posted By: beezer

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/25/12 03:41 AM

Just for kicks I checked on the price of a V-10 as used in the Drag Pak Challenger and found out it was 37,000 and change. Yikes!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted By: viperblue72

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/25/12 07:46 AM

My only point to this thread was that from a marketing standpoint we all know this engine program is gonna choke.

I can also put a 10k paint job on a Geo metro. And I get a nice paint job. But what's the point?

Posted By: tubtar

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/25/12 03:35 PM

Quote:

My only point to this thread was that from a marketing standpoint we all know this engine program is gonna choke.

I can also put a 10k paint job on a Geo metro. And I get a nice paint job. But what's the point?

Point taken.

But it was still a good read......thanks to a couple you youse guys for " factory direct " insights.
I have the new Competition Products catalog in my reading room and noticed a " claimed " 440 horse 408 for just south of 7 k in there.
I bet it has parts in it that come from a place I try not to buy parts from though........I would bet the house on that.
I can see the value of the factory offerings........the quality or parts and build is beyond what you'll get in 99.9837521 % of the others.
So it is pricey , but you do get what you pay for.

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/25/12 05:10 PM

They have been for sale for 6 years.
I'm no expert but wasn't the choke point circa 2008?

Ya know, I've been talking to a 440 small block customer off and on for a few weeks, he bought it to put in his '65 Dart. He's got it home and has been rounding up the other pieces he needs.

Yep, he needs other parts...even though he is replacing a 273 he still needs to spend extra. He's buying TTI headers that cost exactly the same as headers for Gen 3 hemi. He's buying new motor mounts that cost the same as Gen 3 hemi conversion mounts. He needs a new flexplate, it costs the same, and so on.

With the 6000+ he could have saved by buying a 6.1 Hemi instead, I am pretty sure he could have bought a standalone computer, a fuel pump, a cable throttle body, and had a few thousand left over.

He's street driving only with normal radial tires, he isn't a racer. He wants it to hold up, and sound cool. He's not interested in scrounging up a used block and having it machined. He is a true median crate engine customer.

Does anyone think the big difference in torque between stroked LA and stock Gen 3 will matter much in his application? Will he even use the extra power for anything but smoke shows?

When gas is $6 a gallon, wouldn't he be better off with fuel injection? Injectors, rails, all the sensors, and the whole engine wiring harness comes already installed on the 6.1, use whatever pcm you want.

If the smooth idle turns him off, he can stab in a Comp 273 cam and it will idle about like a 340 with a .484 cam, and there's the cool sound. He can tune for the bigger cam with the aftermarket standalone computer.

He will still have thousands left over.

I explained all that to him, he did consider the Gen 3 but said he did not want to learn fuel injection. He also realized there was a cost associated with that being that the factory hadn't made a small block in 10 years. He wanted what he wanted, Mopar had it, he bought it.

Ain't that the way it is supposed to work?

Would it be better to not sell it at all, rather than give him the choice?

Good discussion but very time consuming LOL....glad I can type fast...

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/25/12 06:53 PM

Quote:

They have been for sale for 6 years.
I'm no expert but wasn't the choke point circa 2008?

Good point.

Quote:

...Does anyone think the big difference in torque between stroked LA and stock Gen 3 will matter much in his application? Will he even use the extra power for anything but smoke shows?

Then he would have been a great 360/380 hp customer for $5,000 in 2008. But the raw materials aren't there to do that now.

Quote:

When gas is $6 a gallon, wouldn't he be better off with fuel injection? Injectors, rails, all the sensors, and the whole engine wiring harness comes already installed on the 6.1, use whatever pcm you want.

Very good point. People miss the continual costs.

Quote:

Good discussion but very time consuming LOL....glad I can type fast...

But I think it gave great insight and explanation. Worth it to all your customers here.

Posted By: Performance Only

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/25/12 07:17 PM

Zippy,
i agree with you wholeheartedly. we build a lot of 360's, 408's and bigger using everything from LA blocks, Magnum blocks, R-3 blocks etc. i have a customers car in the shop right now that sounds very similar to what you mentioned. it's a 66 dart with a 360, magnum based motor but with good parts and better heads that flow in the 280's. TTi headers, Schumacher conversion mounts, etc. it'll likely never see a drag strip and the plan is to make it a daily driver. one of the MP crates would've worked fine for that. the Gen 3 hemi would be even better with the abilty to get better fuel mileage, better cold starts etc. etc. etc. fuel injection is the way to go IMO whenever financially feasible.
you simply can't please everybody, but there is still a market for crate engines IMO.
we've been extremely busy so i've only built a handful of 360/ 408 magnum crate combo's over the last few months and they're relatively mild at only 475-525 HP (depending on the combo) but i've sold every single one of them in a short amount of time. cost wise, they are more expensive than the MP crates. they are not racing engines, so to speak but will serve street/strip duty quite nicely with the parts they come with.

Posted By: racealittle

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/25/12 08:25 PM

A friend of mine runs a shop that caters to guys who cant do their own work. He is installing a gen 3 crate motor for a customer. Both spool and biscuit mounts come with the crate. It also looks like the factory header/exhaust pipe will work with the app. It seems to be a drop in.

I have recently decided to divest of all my good sb parts to make cash and gain space. I am down to one car and still have 6 bb engines with good parts. If I can whittle down to just a few engines, I may eventually make the change to a contemporary drivetrain for the car. It just makes sense to eventually go with fuel injection and 8 or 9 speed transmissions. It would be nice to get the basement and garage free of excess.

Posted By: viperblue72

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/26/12 02:23 AM

I agree! Good information here. At least I understand now why the prices are so high. I do feel it is very unfortunate that the prices have gone so high, and do appreciate any offerings at all from mopar performance, being that its amazing they are still in business.
Hopefully they will kick up the horsepower for the same price though and I think theyd sell more.
Most looking to spend 10k on an engine aren't seeking 405hp. They are seeking 500 or 600 or even more sometimes. A person seeking 400 doesn't need all those nice parts.
Well at least maybe the gen3 hemi will really take off and become even more affordable. that twin turbo 5.7 looks pretty sweet in this months car craft

Posted By: 70AARcuda

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/26/12 07:28 AM

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Performanc...238&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Performanc...ies&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Performanc...ies&vxp=mtr

are these the correct MP prices? or just at summit racing? and there are more examples of MP parts priced like that...

not going to sell many of those at that price...lol

Posted By: 2734bbl

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/26/12 05:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Me personally Ive had 12-15 vehicles with 5.2/5.9 motors and as yet not had one have a prob with the heads.

I can personally guarantee you that at least one of, if not more than one, your 12-15 5.2/5.9 engines had a crack between exhaust seats It is a very well known problem when looking for a viable core. It's also something that you most likely won't notice on a used engine until you're looking for a set of OE heads that can magnaflux and not be cracked.

Never had one over heat, lose coolant without an external leak or coolant foul a spark plug BUT,I do believe I posted "I have a friend who works at a machine shop and sees this condition FREQUENTLY "

maybe I'm just lucky

I get a few calls a week looking for cylinder heads but we recomend these customers either to the machine shop or buy EQ heads or similar.

If I were to buld one from scratch I would be getting a set of EQ heads and not bother with the stock heads for just that reason.

Posted By: RangerDan440

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/27/12 02:21 AM

FWIW, just the other day, my machinist quoted me a price of $7500 for a Magnum-based 408 with iron heads and a guaranteed minimum of 425 HP/500 ft/lbs, plus a core. Thats complete intake to pan, with paint and balancing.

I agree with Zippy that an all new engine is better when possible but I do think over $10K for a stock bore, 400 HP 360 is on the pricey side.

The early cylinder heads were the ones prone to cracking; Ive been through 3 1996 and later Magnums, all with over 100K and the heads were fine.

Posted By: patrick

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/27/12 02:20 PM

Quote:

Not 100% sure on "pure" reman, last time I talked applications with someone in that group they did sell
1990-ish era la engines but that was two years ago.

Demand differences beween reman and performance crate engines...under the right conditions: low price, economy is not in the toilet, folks aren't scared off by new technology, gas isn't 5 bucks a gallon and so on.....are pretty dramatic.

Let's say I need a 5.9 core to build up. I might find a wrecked 2002 truck in a yard around here, though most yard vehicles are newer. I can see whether it has oil and coolant in it. I can see if it has been hit in the front.

The big volume salvage yards will sell everything they can get their hands on, whether it has been burned in a fire, it has oil or coolant or not, it has been hit really hard in the front, and so on. They don't care, they just want to get paid. Given the nature of their business, I can't blame them. Can't really control what comes in the door at the reman facility.

I'm also guessing A LOT of core motors were lost in the cash for clunkers, since by law they had to be rendered inoperable, and had liquid glass poured into the cooling system, IIRC

Posted By: EchoSixMike

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/27/12 02:56 PM

Drain oil, add waterglass, run til destruction. Core is useless.

Most stupid waste of taxdollars ever.

Quite literally, that crime makes me think that bills of attainder should make a comeback. S/F....Ken M

Posted By: furious70

Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp? - 02/27/12 10:36 PM

So Zippy, when is the firesale on those old, obsolete, no good, worthless, scrap 6.1's gonna start?

I've got one EFI conversion under my belt, would love to have another

$10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?