318 build

well here I go again.

looking in the stash of engine parts I have I noticed almost all of the early to late 80s #302 heads are very poor castings with lots of core shift and bad looking port openings. some better than others with not so rectangle openings and casting slag all over, bowls look bad with seems mid way from core shifting when cast.

the couple #714 heads are from 90-91 engines and would be the last of the pre-mag heads produced when magnum came out 92-93

the #714 casting are better looking untouched than any of the #302 I have on hand. nice bowls not much slag, better looking machine work nice even/matching size on port openings ect..

so bust them down and off to machine shop. new OEM 360 valves and bare #714 casting heads in hand. 2 weeks later I pick them up and do they look good so far.

I had them back cut the 1.88-1.60 valves the unshroud the head around the valves a little, with 3 angle on intake and 5 angles on exhaust. now to do a little clean up in the bowls and blend the machine cuts into the bowls with a gasket match to intake and headers.

cleaning up the Holley Street dominator as it works really well and has small port/runners and will add the 650DP to it.

having the block tanked-bore .060-cam bearings-installed

new OEM roller lifters/PR/rockes new set comp 901-16 springs

going with a Hughes roller cam but have not decided one which one yet.

if my math is correct this will put me at 328 CI and only 12 CI shy of 340 CI and big valves with small ports/runners should have good velocity filling the cyls.

I am looking at a SER0813ALN-14

smooth idle
high vacuum
short dur@.050
high valve lift
wide LSA 114*

will be swapping in a 833OD turning 3.23/26 tire while I am at it

oh and I cant forget to mention the HIGHLY CONTRVERSAL installing the pistons backward changing pin offset/rod angle..... yep I have done it many times.

any cam suggestions?

yes typo, sorry should be a #4 not #3 SER 0814ALN-14

I can't find that number for the cam, are you looking at the SER0814ALN-10 ?

What are your goals with this thing? Sounds like your going after a very low RPM torq motor.

you are correct Dave, low rpm torque to strong mid range 4800 5500 rpm.


after talking it over, if the heads max flow/lift is 450ish then no point in more lift than needed. so maybe a short dur and a 430/450 lift on a 114LSA.

I remember way back I use a napa brand cam with 429/444 lift in a teen I think it was a 112* or 114* they called it a MPG cam or a stock 73-340 cam?


I will look into some more cams in the 430/450 lift range.

how will a flat tappet cam vs roller cam be with the same specs? will a smaller spec roller get the same results as a bigger flat tappet???

seems I used a mopar purple shaft with the 450/455 lift range but was flat tap

numbers..why does it have to be numbers? they make my head hurt.

they say " 5 out of 4 people struggle with math "

Scratchn’s: Here are a couple pics 2 start

Very nice castings in bowl area

Had them do a throat cut and unshroud valve

Now just a light touch up on cut lines to blend the bowl

Gasket matching ports next

More

And....

Actually there is a good reason to run more lift than your heads max out at.

If you put in a .450 cam, you get max flow for the millisecond the valve stops and starts to close.

If you went with say a .500 cam you get max flow from the time the valve hits .450, goes to .500 and back to .450.

Somebody like Dewayne can perform the sorcery and witchcraft required to put the duration, LSA, lobe profiles etc where it can make the most of your cylinder heads and put the torque curve where your application needs it.

Kevin

How much did you have cut off the heads?

Agreed. As long as flow doesn't fall off at .500 then run a modern profile fast rate of lift cam to keep the valve open in the "sweet spot" as long as possible for a given duration.

Hey Scratch! I'm in the process of building a 273 for my 65 Barracuda, and will be using a set of 302 heads. Was it much of a big deal to step up the valve sizes to 1.88 - 1.60's? I'm not sure if the 273 needs that or not, but I'm open to it if it will help airflow and not hurt the velocity. It's gonna be .030 over with NORS 8.5 pistons, a D4B Edelbrock intake, MP electronic ignition. I'm using a 318 crank and bought new Scat rods cheaper than I could get the old ones redone! I'm leaning towards a Lunati retrofit hydraulic roller with 447 lift. There's another Lunati hydr roller that is slightly hotter, but I need to see what my builder says before I throw the money down. I'll be using Dougs headers in the Barracuda.
I had my 302 heads pressure checked to see if they were cracked, and they aren't. Those things are bad to crack between the valves

I have read & IIRC on a 273 and #302 heads the 1.78 valve is better as the 1.88 is shrouded and needs notches on the block cyl bores to clear. or was that a 2.02 valve?
but going bigger on the exhaust side from 1.50 to 1.60 helps it a lot. then just open/clean up bowl area, back cut valves ect.. or have them fully ported 1.78/60

how well do the #302 castings look in the bowls/port openings? last couple I had are crappy castings but my 91 #714 are pretty clean from the get go as for as casting flaws go. very little clean up and bowls are shape nicely/roundish with no big casting lines in there.

just enough to insure a flat surface.

this is why I am not just gorilla fisted hawging them out as I have in the past. I don't want to kill any flow or reshape the bowls/runners/ports very much and not get the chamber ccs mis matched. who is this Dewayne and how do you go about getting them done?

what kind of budget is needed for him to fully port them?

This is what I thought too, but an experienced head porter told me it isn't the case. He said in almost all cases once the port hits it's max flow any additional lift can cause the flow to be turbulent or stall.

From Scratchn: Gasket match.
Just clean up corners call it done.
On to block mods

It really depends on the heads, once you reach max flow there is no point opening them more, however as it was pointed out they will be open longer and the could be some benefit in higher RPM ranges but you could do the same thing with a cam that just holds the valve open instead of opening it more. Some heads will just quit flowing more if you open the valve more and not have an issue, others will actually go into turbulance and an even lower amount of flow so you could (or could not) make less power.

The 1.88 1.60 valve is only .050 closer to the cylinder wall than a 1.78 1.5 valve, if done properly this is what I would run on a 273. I would not run the 302/714 head though, I would run the 920 head from a 67 273/318, more flow and smaller chambers that better match the 273 bore. With a 302/714 head you have some chamber that does not sit right over the piston.

looking at these cams, but undecided still.

SER0814ALN-14

LSA/ICL
114*/110*

Dur@.050
208*-214*

valve lift
.500-.506


SER1418AlN-14

LSA/ICL
114*/110*

Dur@.050
214*/218*

valve lift
.500/.506


SER2226ALN-14

LSA/ICL
114*/110*

Dur@.050
.222/.226

valve lift
.515/.521

leaning toward the one in the middle.

or maybe some whimpy cams. being for a magnum engine wonder if they will work well in a pre-mag LA roller cam engine and fit my needs just as well. the 5.2 & 5.9 magnum whiplash cams work really well in the pre-mag engine. I like the HP/torque level but don't want the bumpy low vac rough idle for this daily driver.

SER9703ALN-10

LSA/ICL
110*/106*

Dur@.050
197*/203*

valve lift
.476/.485


SER9703ALN-14

LSA/ICL
114*/110*

Dur@.050
197*/203*

valve lift
.476/.485


short dur and high lift...this is more of a stock cam with more lift?

of these 2 cams I would go with the 114* LSA

still got a couple days to decide yet, pistons here this week and dropping off block for boring/cam bearings next week. this week will do the oil mods to block/main cap/oil pump. oil galley feeds to 9/32" and block/main cap/oil pump to 1/2" gasket match pump to cap-round/blends turns at oil filter passage.

lots of grinding to do.

For the most part those 114 LSA cams are going to idle pretty well with good vacuum.

that's what I want but I also need it to move a #4000 truck around as a daily driver in traffic. haul trash/boat and do some highway miles mostly 50-80 mph I always shot for a steady 60MPH = 1 mile a minute travel time. MPGs wont hurt anything.

things on the to choose from list. I would like to make use of this stuff so it is not sitting on the shelf collecting dust.

Intake /carb combo???

Holley 650cfm vacuum 2ndary spredbore List# for a 85 truck 360 4v q-jet replacement carb. NOS/NIB Military surplus. only mod I have add is a QF adjustable Vacuum pod on it. or a Edelbrock 1905 q-jet for a 85 truck

with a Holley STREET Dominator intake.

or

Holley 650DP on a Edelbrock LD4B ( I do have the Edelbrock RPM air-gap but will save it for the 360 headed 318 and later rebuild.)


transmissions on hand and ready to go in.

727 CRT-VB TF-II shift kit recommend mods from CRT to go with VB.

833OD hydro bell trying to procure a B-body 833 4 speed and not use OD

93-gas 2x NV4500 5 speed (really nice with 3.21-3.23 gearing in my truck but no speed shifting/racing it but it hauls the weight no troubles)

truck has e-body 8 3/4 axle on top of leaf with a rear shackle flip.

my left side says

650DP-LD4B
833 4 speed
3.91 gear/26" tire

but my right side says

650spredbore street dom
833OD or 727auto
3.23/26" tire

I am keeping in mind I am retiring and want to slow down and enjoy the ride. I just need it to be a peppy #4000 truck and keep up in traffic.

If it were mine I would use the NV4500 with the 3.91 gear and a vacuum secondary carb. Any of those cams would work and I would probably use the 222 @ .050 cam with the 3.91 gear or the 214 cam with a 3.23 gear. I would not recommend the DP carb in a truck that heavy. I had a 650 DP carb on my W200 with a 4.10 gear and 31" tire and it didn't work out to well. I ended up converting it to a VS, much better now.

food for thought. that NV4500 did give mpgs in my truck with a 235/75/15 tire 3.21 gear about the same as 29x9.50x15 3-55 gear. I would have to drop to 4th with 3.23 on a good up hill grade but 3.55 would walk up it in 5th while accelerating and gaining speed, idle through some thick sand beds and never spin a tire. I really did like that part of the NV4500 but never run my 3.91sg behind it. I can see it fitting the bill with the correct tire size.... when I removed it for the 727auto I could not get in the sand what so ever with the 3.55 locker it would just spin down fast unlike the granny gear 5 speed. I could spin it up with the granny gear and it would dig ruts and move right along let off throttle and the tires would pop right up on top of the sand and idle on.

what I did not like was trying to shift it fast. shift like butter but a might slow for racing it around on the street. about the best thing was the off the line hole shot with it and once in 3rd standing on the throttle it would haul the mail. on the interstate it would fly open road and would do 80-90 all the way all day.

this morning on the way to work I was thinking about a B-body a833 4 speed 3.23 or 3.91 and the pro/cons of it over the NV4500. after all a lot of Mopar legends were HP- B-body cars @ #4000 or more or a C-body with 4 speed??

6pac 440
a833
3.91sg 4.10sg 4.11sg 5.13sg
14" poly glass tires

#4000 + B-body

I always thought that as weird with the 14" wheels 26" tall tire and that low of gearing. but remember how they would smoke the tires through 3 gears like nothing and fly on the topend in a 1/4 mile. so my thinking is keep all those stock set ups in mind setting it up this time for a daily drive. only sorta fast.

so I come up with something close and was going for that same cam choice.
222@.050
a833 4 speed
3.23- 255/60/15 26" tall on 10" rim

it will see more traffic than off-road so this is more street truck friendly for crazing and can always pop in those 3.91s to rev things up some.

I do know for sure how well the 650DP worked on the 360headed 318/727/3.23 with the 5.2 whiplash roller cam. I was taxing it pretty hard. and now I am here building another one.

but the 650 spredbore Holley is a vac carb and I have added the QFT adjustable vac pod to it and is ready to go. best thing is all the stock 85 truck PTK linkage will fit with that spredbore Holley & Street dom intake if I stay 727auto

Well, I was thinking since you want to daily it and do light hauling the NV4500 might be a better choice. The DP with an automatic and the PTK would work alright. I like to just walk my truck up the mountain without down shifting it. So I can have it in 4th at 35 MPH and go WOT with no problem now, with the DP it just bogs and with the NP 435 basically being a 3 speed the gear spread is too wide.
But then again, you really don't have any hills in FL.

that's funny, I live at the foot of one of the highest hills in FL. IIRC, it is like 1200' above sea level. drive over it daily.

you are right it is a good choice. I used it already and know the feel well. about 3 yrs of daily driving it well. how I know what 3.21-3.23-3.55 all feel like in my truck. 3.21 the fastest out the hole and top speed in 5th but lacked pulling torque uphill- 3.23 was just about right for me- torque uphill depending on how heavy the load- 3.55 hauled all the load no problem but a tad to low gear for traffic under 45mph for me. most I haul or pull is a 82 sportster in the bed or 5 trash cans and only pull a small Jon boat. the biggest pull would be flat towing my 44 truck with a towbar with the sportster in the back when I retire. oh and maybe pull the Jon boat behind the 440 truck as it is flat towed. most likely not all at once. LOL!

BUT I have not had a a833 4 speed in about 25 yrs and were A-body Dusters. I love those A-bodys. 340shorty (R.I.P. Larry Green) had a 6pac340/a833/ pistol grip shifter from a B-body with the ramcharger bucket seats in his 80s d150 stepside with the 3.23-26" tire combo. so killing my A-body 4 speed desire working with what I got why not get as close as I will every get to owning another A-body 4 speed car. just put one in my truck..Yea that's it "just" such a bad 4 letter word, often over used and not fully understood that it is "easier said than done" most times. LOL!

plus I have yet to find and procure said a833 yet. got the truck and hydro bell parts already. I do have the a833OD & truck shifter on hand. Maybe just need to rebuild and swap some parts to make a a833???

also kinda why I want to keep the Holley Street dominator intake. sentimental about it because I had just got the intake in the mail and talked with Larry about the NOS Holley spredbore carb for it for the last time just days before he went to the Hospital for surgery and passed away. the plan back then was to copy his combo for my stepside when I first got it lowerd/tubbed.

so the a833 4 speed should haul everything I need and we are building my sons hunting truck which is an 86 4x4 and he has a 94 ram 1500 2x truck for a beater.

I retire soon, I am a paw paw with a grandson going on 4 and need a new truck combo that's a street friendly fun cruzer able to get out of its own way in traffic and only kind of fast.

let me see what I find on converting 833OD to a regular 4 speed. only thing I do know about the 833 is how to shift one and the OD has 1 of the levers upside down for the shift rod and I am not sure I am well versed in either of those 2 things I know either.

I am at 1000' and I live in a holler. I sent you a PM.

Scratchn update

Pistons are here.
Flat top .060

New rings comes with them

What piston do you have there? What is the compression height?

Oooo! Shiny things!

But no valve reliefs. Might be a problem with those .500 lift cams.

nice Mike!

sadly disappointed this morning driving by the sign and actually reading it.. I stand corrected it only 240 feet above sea level. not 1200. that must be why the 318 could get up it rather fast. LOL!

yea I was watching the bigger valves piston clearance. I am not against a little less lift as long as it is more than a 2v roller cam. LOL!

silvolite

3.970 (AT +.060")

flat top 9.0-1CR

ringlands 5/64"-5/64"-3/16"

comp distance 1.745"

pin diameter .9842"

if the math is correct it should be 328 cubic inch -/+

Another moparts member just gave me a Chet Herburt flat tappet cam with a fresh set of matching Chet Herburt lifters for it. he bought it a long time back for a 318 build but went another way on.

197*/203* @ .050

.410/.420 lift

112* LSA

this might be just enough little 318 needs.

Hughes has a roller cam same Dur@.050 but on a 110* LSA with .476-.485 lift.

the 5.2 whiplash I have been running may just get tossed back in there.

Probably won't be too hard to Zero deck those suckers and run a .028 head gasket.

The lift won't be the problem, gonna need to keep the duration down though so short duration with fast lift.

One thing I like to do when running a high compression motor is to chuck the exhaust valves in a drill press and polish the heads, start off with about 600 grit sandpaper and work in steps down to 2000 for a mirror polish, this keeps them from absorbing as much heat and helps keep detonation at bay. Remember the ex valve is one the hottest place in the chamber (as long as you get rid of the pointy thing between the valves).

How much do you usually pay to have a block decked 50 or 60 thousandths?

$200 for squaring and I usually take .030 ish off most blocks, combine it with piston comp height and gasket thickness to get a real tight quench.

I am assuming you are talking about a magnum block and pistons here HRD. .030 wont be near enough to get the op's 1.74 pistons to zero deck. How much did you cut off the magnum heads to get the 11 to 1 motor you mentioned in an earlier post?

If I remember right it was about .030 off the heads, any more and you start taking away valve seat but that may have been the 2.02 heads I did for my hot rod dakota stroker...?

Yes you are correct I think on the mag block it took around .035 or something for zero deck (after squaring) and the LA blocks were a little taller but I don't remember how much. Also part of me wants to say the decks got shorter for the last year or two of the LA also, maybe when they quit using shim steel head gaskets and started using composites. I used to have a ton of this info in my head and even shared stuff here like block weights, heights, how far in the hole pistons were, head weights... someone better with the google could probably find it in my old posts, I have forgotten way too much small block stuff since I been messing with mostly hemis now.

The 5.9 magnum in my wifes daily driver 15 passenger van is leaking out of pretty much everything butt the head gasket so I may need to dig up all my old magnum stuff and build another superduper mpg 318 for that thing. Then I could use the 5.9 for a superduper MPG project in my 93 dakota, so many ideas and so little time.

Scratchn’s block getting cleaned and bored

got the block home and did some drilling. 13-1/4" extra drain back holes in valley, galley feeds to 9/32" block/cap/pump drilled 1/2" and gasket match pump to cap & cap to block added 4 extra holes in the filter plate, restrictors/plugs in block to reduce oil to rocker shafts. ( doing this because the stock roller lifters are oil-thru with hollow PRs and will be too much oil in the VC area)

got a set of Mopar HP rod bearings, cleveite full groove main bearings along with the core plug kit & intermediate shaft bushing for the block. will be dropping the crank in tonight & working on installing pistons/rods.

got the comp 901-16 springs and gaskets on the way next.


a little FYI on pre-mag & magnum engines. early pre-mag roller engines used a non-oil thru lifter and solid 5/16" PRs with the LA rocker shaft oiling. late model pre-magnum engines oil the LA rocker shaft style along with the oil-thru lifters & hollow PRs. IMHO is why late model pre-mag engines have such killer VC oil leaks with 2x the oil in the VC area.

early magnum engines 92-93 had the block drilled for LA rocker shaft oiling but blocked it with the head gasket and oil the pedestal rockers thru the lifter/hollow PRs

which they may have done on late model pre-mag engines with the composite head gaskets. I know a replacement gasket does not block the hole and it will oil both ways to rocker shafts which IMHO is too much oil in the VC area causing leaks.

this is why I add restrictors in the block to restrict oil flow to shafts as it will be oiling thru lifters & PRs and the LA rocker shaft oiling. ( I almost want to try to block it and see if the lifter/hollow rods would be enough oil on LA shaft/rockers.) I do know pre-lubing it with a drill it shoots oil from tip of rockers to the ceiling in my shed on all 16 rockers. and plenty runs down into the rocker cup/shaft area. but that's on the stand cold and not hot under extended load/run times.

I also noticed the evac system in the headers tend to suck oil when it is oiling both way as there is a lot of oil/windage in the VC. I did not have this on my early pre-mag engine with non oil thru lifters & solid PRs or any of my older LA engines.

part store want to sell you a 3/8 chevy PR as a replacement or the hollow late model PRs so anyone out there have any early solid PRs or non oil thru roller lifters?? I cant find any around and only run up on the last of the pre-mag engines in JYs

Can you post intake pics?

sure. I will take some pics tonight. I will be running a Holley Street Dominator intake with a Holley 650cfm vac spredbore carb ( q-jet replacement for 85 d150 I got NOS/NIB from a military surplus sale.) I added a QFT adjustable vac pod to it. I have found this is well worth the 40bux for dialing in a vac 2ndary carb over the R&R pod spring.

2nd choice is my LD4B intake with the 650cfm double pumper. I will run the 4 speed with this combo.

I also have a eddy performer RPM-airgap intake with a 750cfm dp that I modified to use an 850cfm throttle plate on. gasket match main body to the 850 throttle plate for 1 3/8" ventures 1 3/4" throttle blades. squared up air bleeds/jets converted it to 4 corner idle lots of velocity and throttle response with this mod and it is 40 yrs old and works good as a new high $ shiny carb.

moparlarry360 is helping me with the pic posting and will come when he has the spare time to post them... THANKS Larry!!

Hey my pleasure

NOS Full groove main bearings right Mike?

More good stuff

And…

Love that old school intake back there ^ btw!

thanks Larry, yes you would be correct on the rod & main bearings.

I am sentimental about the intake as I got it from Larry Green AKA 340shorty a few days before he passed away. since it is a Holley intake only fitting it have a Holley carb.

I am trying to decide what rear main seal to use. in both of the 90-91 318s I have I found the rope seal. but in all my gasket set I have the newer replacement seal. once decided or NOS Mopar rope seals found I will drop in the crank and pistons and get the bottom end buttoned up.

ordering up 16 NOS/NIB Mopar roller lifter & PR package. 11$ each on ebag. I ordered up a Mopar t-chain tensioner/chain/gears from the local Mopar dealer.

I wish superformance still made rear main seals for 318/360 because I’ve heard they were best but I don’t think they do.

thanks for reminding me. I want to look into some of the other engine gaskets as well.

Scroll down the page. It appears there are 2 listed:

http://www.mopartsracing.com/parts/Superformance_Gaskets.html

Um, wonder if that's old stock or if making again. I like

That's really cool. I had a street dominator and a Q-jet replacement on a 327 a lifetime ago. Worked real well.

Progress.
Crank in & torqued.
Pistons in &
Rods torqued.
Oil galley plugs in & intermediate bushimg in.

Did you get the pistons zero decked?

We have to wait for Scratchnfortraction to chime in for answer.

Old school piston swap I see...

[quote=scratchnfotraction]thanks Larry, yes you would be correct on the rod & main bearings.

I am sentimental about the intake as I got it from Larry Green AKA 340shorty a few days before he passed away. since it is a Holley intake only fitting it have a Holley carb.

Larry was one of the good ones, miss that guy.

I hate 2nd guessing myself but glad I do sometimes. And sometimes I should read directions more than once before I install things. popped all the pistons back out to check rings.. yep had a couple rings mixed up on the pistons. I must have got them mixed up when prepping pistons laying stuff out on the bench. it is super hot in the shed in the summer and I kept taking breaks to cool down & hydrate in the house. most likely that's when I got 2nd ring in top groove and a couple top rings in both grooves. so... I pull them all and remove rings. restack the rings correctly and clock all gaps correctly LOL! top ring has big dot mark and 2nd ring has small dot mark. DUH! so re-oiled everything and installed them correctly. all good now I can sleep well again.

waiting on gaskets, cam, timing gear, that should button up the bottom end and get ready for heads to go on next.

It's important to stay hydrated while engine building!

Yes! Hydrate until a good buzz comes on and then pause for at least 10 minutes

I'm waiting on call back from engine builder :("Next week" has been a month from two of them but I'm being patient. I'm pretty sure of one I want to go with but I guess he's real busy so I'm giving him time. He seems like a really good guy and straight forward

Scratchn' making progress with some NOS goodies

Progress

Purdy too

I’m digging the old school parts like the “Charger 225” air cleaner!!! Great choice

Might look where the oil hole is on those lifters are, a big bunch of clackers got superseded with the oil hole in a diff place so they would not drain when sitting.

All kinds of good stuff in Mike's majic shed!

Yes Mike's magic shed contains lots of Mopar goodies!!! I accidentally left out NOS valve cover gaskets too. I like the old style breather he's using too.

IIRC-that is when they change the early lifter from a non-oil through lifter/solid PRs to a oil through lifter/solid PRs and later on to a oil-through lifter hollow 5/16" PRs in the later 90-91 pre-magnum LA roller cam engines as they gear up for the 92-93 magnum engine debuted. you have to WATCH for non oil through lifters going into a magnum engine that oil rockers via PRs

I have also found in a lot of the 90-91 pre-magnum LA roller 5.2 engines that they oiled through the heads/shafts as well as up through the lifters/PRs. IMHO this is why a lot of them had VC leaks as it is a lot of oil in the VC area at operating speeds & that the PCV valve suck a lot of oil as well. (why I use a cheap oil/air separator on mine) on the police engines they have grooved #2 & #4 cam bearings for full time oiling to rockers and they tend to have a lot of VC leaks also.

I install restrictors in the block reducing the feed to rocker to 1/2 the oem block size. along with all the oiling mods I do.

all of my lifters are the same part # & yr, they are sealed NOS-1989 OEM replacements- oil through lifter/solid 5/16" PRs. I index them when installed hole facing cam per FSM book.

installed dry/not pumped up and all PRs where at zero lash/no preload per cyls. = I could pre load bottom out each lifter by hand with no loose rockers. then primed oil pump/engine - Lucus sae30 break in oil with 65 psi with a 1/2" drill. they all pump up and primed till no air bleeding out of lifters. rotating engine to oil both sides all 16 rocker oiling.

all on a HughesEngines roller cam 192*/203* .500/.513 lift 114* LSA

I should be good to go.

yep,lots of Mopar in my shed.... but there is a dark corner in there...... since Larry did not mention my dark secret about my chebby 454 and the 700r4 4 speed auto I just put in the shed. I will go ahead and come out of the shed with it. yep all started when my buddy Ace passed away in march 2020. I inherited his 1955 chevy 3800 flatbed truck and a 454 engine.

and in the last yr I have built a 10.5 to 1 chevy 350 for some $, removed a straight 6 and installed a 69 327 into a 59 3200 Apache fleetside with the stock manual 3 speed, then added disc brakes all 4 corners, converted to a 700r4 4 speed auto. for $$

but..so far all this chebby junk in my shed has just been in my way of a real engine build.


so me thinks 1 more chebby job and I will have $$ for a 833 4 speed and hydro clutch behind the new 318.

my buddy wants to put a 57-283 crank/rods in a 64 327 with the chebby DZ302 package for a 69 z28 302 engine clone. that should be a high reving screamer in his 64 Malibu 4 speed.

please don't judge me for the things I have to do to make $$ funding my Mopar addiction.

The good Lord made all those other brands so we had a way to make money so we could build the good stuff. Gene

All dem chebbies is good practice! Heck, I haven't torn an engine down for 10 years. Soon I won't remember how.

I was protecting you from the shame of that secret dark corner of the shed Mike! LOL just kidding and I'm glad it's funding more Mopar projects!!!

I for one am pretty happy ford and gm are still around. I made a pretty good living patching up the frames and cabs on their trucks and SUVs over the years. I never had an issue with one of their rust buckets gracing my shop and driveway. When their owners figured out I could patch up their junk, they kept dragging that junk here to buy a couple more years of use out of them. Their money gave me the cash I needed to support my family and upgrade my Mopar stuff.

Few people in life get to only work on what they love, for the rest of us, its called working for a living. Gene

dragged home a 82-d150 shorty /6 833OD. so got a 4 speed and shifter to clean up next. dug the hydro clutch master/slave out of the shed and have it bled with fresh fluid. pressure washing the v6 hydro bell next.

anyone want the /6 engine with the mech clutch bell housing? FREE! or it will have to go to the scrapyard. drove it home...runs even better when all 6 plug wire were on it. but it is tired and well rusted..I mean used. a small church bought it new and sold it last yr at the church social club auction. 500$... we are using it all except for the /6 engine & mech bell or the 2x frame it is on.

500$ for a used 4 speed/cross member/drive shaft/ rear end seem like a good deal to me. my son is using the cab/bed on a 4x4 chassis so that means ol' dad is 500$ and ALL the labor in the hole on this one. he gets a free title/cab/bed/free labor & the new engine I built him this yr. he did pay 1/2 the bill as the cam was Hughes whiplash roller cam/springs he bought was 500$. and he did all the gasket matching & oil mods with my help.

got my 66-440 off the shed floor and on a stand. so it gets a freshen up soon. and 2 more LA318 roller cam short blocks to build before I retire in May 2024. by then my current daily driver 318 (Larry's A38 police360 head 4 barrel 318 with a whiplash roller cam) & my whiplash440 will be retired to the shed.

and the I have my 2nd ironhead sportster almost 75% done.

cant wait to do some churn & burn in a mopar that is not on a daily work grind. BUT I can say it has been fun wearing out my mopars 100 miles a day for the last 35 yrs.

churn some oil and burn some gas scratchinfotraction all the way!

That's a good deal Mike. Someone up this way would probably love that southern frame.

Hey Scratch! Looking good! Is that the Chet Herbert cam that I gave you?

Whoops! I just took closer look at your cam, and noticed that it is a hydraulic roller. Cool!

Where did you get the machine work done? You probably stated somewhere in one of your replies, and I'll find it later.

Hmmm? Where did everybody go? I fear that I killed the 5 page long post, you had going there. (sigh)

Dang... it's a 3 page long post.

hey, just off line a while for winter break @ work.

motor is all done and moved onto the hydro bell/833OD trans for it......and !@#$%^&* it does not bolt up! digging out the NP435 and see if it fits. not what I want but now I need to know if it fits.

I got this hydro bell from Basketcase and IIRC it was off a 88d100 v6 with the A535 5 speed. which looks almost the same as a 833od unit. I just ASSumed it bolted up till now it don't.

I would prefer a 833 but would settle on a 833od. I don't think the a535 would hold up behind the v8 they way I want to drive it.

so I have in the shed the

NV4500 5 speed
NP435 4 speed
833OD 4 speed

since I have to stay with the hydro bell I need to find the A535 5 speed or hope the np435 bolts up.


maybe score one of the 9 bolt v6 hydro bells with the ax-15 5 speed out of a 2000 Dakota... NV3500 maybe?

I have an extra hydro bell from a V6 ax-15, but its an early bell from a 92 or 93 Dakota (if I can get through the fresh 6" of snow and get the lower garage door open, that is). I don't have an 833OD here, or I would do a test fit for you.
I'm a long ways away from you though, shipping would be a killer I suspect. Gene

poorboy, thanks! this could be a learning moment for me.

I guess some history lessons on the NPa535 5 speed along with the 833 & 833od unit is in order. did the 833 or 833od even get a hydro bell at any time in its run?

did the a535 5 speed replace the 833od in the early v6 daks?

IIRC I have seen some 90-93 w150s with a hydro bell/np435

anyone got the a535 5 speed to measure? I have only ran across 1 of them and found out if the shifter is broke or gone it is almost imposable to obtain one by itself.

on my 88-d100 v6 hydro bell the bolt spacing on the bell is wider than my 82-833od. but it also has what looks like to be the NP435 granny 4 speed bolt spacing. I will test fit it this weekend. I do know for sure it does not bolt to the nv4500 or the 833od.

I have only seen 1 v6 ax-15 5 speed in a 2000 dak when the guy had the engine out. I spyed the 9 bolts on the inside bell for the trans & only seen enough to know it was a ax-15 5 speed. ( of course I am Assuming again.) I do know the ax-15 in a 4.0 jeep Cherokee 4x4 is one tuff trans.

I do have a 82-mech linkage bell on the 435 that should accept the 8330d but I have a hydro clutch cab/pedals now. not wanting to go back to mech linkage.

it is my under standing that I would want a B-body 833 4 speed for correct shifter location using a b-body pistol grip non console/bench seat shifter. ( IIRC, that's what 340shorty had in his 82-d150 with a 70-340 6pak 833 4peed. but it was a mech bell.

right now the only positive I have on hand is I just did a complete rebuild the 435 4 speed. my fingers crossed if the hydro bell fits!

Wow, I wish I knew what all those trans numbers and all meant. Been away from that too long.
Exactly what is the major difference between the mech bell and hydro besides how the tranny bolts up? (if I read your post correctly)

So my info is pretty sketchy, so take it for whatever it may be worth.

The 435 is the granny gear heavy duty truck trans. Most work pickup trucks that came with a 4 speed, got them in the early days.

The mid 60s cars got the A833 4 speed up until around the mid 70s when the OD craze started because of fuel mileage. The a 833 was a tough bird before Mopar added the heavy duty version to use behind the 440s and the 426 Hemi. In the mid 70s, the 833 got an aluminum case instead of the cast iron version, and the OD trans got 3rd gear replaced with an OD gear (0.87 I believe) and the shift lever was flipped over so what used to be 4th was now 3rd, and visa-versa. The aluminum case could have problems under heavy abuse because the aluminum case would allow the main shaft and the secondary shafts to Waller out the holes in the case. I also believe Mopar offered a couple different 1st and 2ns gears as well to accommodate the lower powered vehicles.

i believe the 1st (and maybe part of the 2nd) year production Dakota got the aluminum case OD 833 but then they got the AX-15 5 speed. The AX-15 has the on top of the trans shift handle with internal sliding rods supported in the aluminum case that shifts the gears. The trans end of an AX-15 shift handle looks a lot like the bottom of the handle of the 435 shifter, but it fits in slots on the internal sliding the shift rods. Those sliding internal shift rods do not make power shifting very easy, they move way too slow to make us old motorheads happy (at least with the ax-15 in my coupe, but its also got nearly 200K miles on it).

I suspect the other lighter duty 5 speed (A535?) with the unique shifter was a short lived version of the AX -15 that had the 5 speed shifter outside of the trans body. It may have preceded the AX-15 or may have come after it. I've heard about it, but don't have any data on it. Dodge also had a few 5 speeds that had the bell attached, those bells were engine specific, and too new for me to be concerned about.

The NV 3500 and the NV 4500 are suppose to be the heavy duty 5 speeds put into the full sized trucks. I believe both of those also have the shift with the internal sliding shafts.

The main difference between the hydro bell and the mechanical bell is the hydro bell has provisions for mounting the hydraulic slave cylinder the replace the mechanical linkage on the older stuff. You can attach the slave cylinder to the mechanical bell, but it will take some engineering, just like you can convert the hydro bell back to a mechanical unit, but you will have to do some modifications because there is no provision to mount the ball stud for the cross bar.

Understand that Mopar didn't add any trans bolt pattern that didn't fit the current available transmissions. As the available transmission choices changed over the years, the trans bolt pattern on the bell kept pace, maybe only allowing an older trans pattern for a year or two. Of course, that was when Chrysler still was owned by Chrysler. I also suspect that as Chrysler was bought and sold a few times, the parts interchange may have became more consistent, the parts for a Dakota also fit a full size truck, and probably a jeep, but it could have really gotten screwed up too, because the "new" company wanted to use "their" parts instead of the last guy's parts. Gene

Poorboy, that sounds about right to me.

I checked my 2 bells and found the 82-d350 mech bell from the 360/435 granny tranny has dual bolt patterns... but it does not fit the 82-d100 833od 4 speed.

my 88-d100 v6 hydro bell has duel bolt patterns & fits my np435 but not the 833od. it is super tight on the bearing retainer but did go all the way on.

so... I guess I am looking for a v8- 833od mech bell for a truck chassis? or a hydro bell with the 833od bolt pattern if there is such a thing? might as well look around 833 trans while I am searching.

I should be able to fab up a slave cyl. mount fairly easy enough.


how exactly does the 833 & 833od differ? reading online it says the 3/4 lever is flip 180* so does it just shift 3/4 backwards? what happens if you bolt the lever on down like a 833? does it still shift/work?

Hummm….

I am guessing the bearing retainer is what I need to watch also with a 833 & 833od and I ASSume the bolt patter to bell is the same on all 833/833od 4 speeds?

The difference between the 833 and the OD 833 is the aluminum case, the switched lever, and 3rd gear being replaced with the OD gear. The OD trans also probably has a larger diameter front bearing retainer. the smaller retainer bolts on, but I think there was a seal drain added to the larger diameter bearing retainer that the smaller retainer doesn't fully cover.
Flipping the 3/4 gear lever on the OD trans will still shift, but when you put it in 3rd gear, you will have OD and 4th will be 1-1 gear. The flipped lever only changes which gear is engaged with the shifter in a certain position. The OD bells were all machined for the larger diameter retainer, a filler ring was available to fill the gap when a different trans was used. Back in the day, many bells were machined for the larger retainer, and a few placed offered the filler spacer, but it is probably not available these days. I believe the OD 833 was a 76-89 item in the Valarie and later years (after 84?) light duty trucks, after then it was either an automatic or the 5 speed. The 833 (std or OD) trans to bell bolt pattern was the same, but the retainer bearing housing was a different size.

The second bolt pattern on your bells may very well be for a 3 speed manual trans, not a different 4 speed. I think the 3 speed was still the base manual trans then.

Who knows for sure what Chrysler was doing in those days, probably using up what ever may have been laying in a warehouse someplace. 77/78/79 was the near bankruptcy time, and they were not back on their feet until after about 84-85. Lots of stuff went on during those years just to get a product into a customer's hands. Parts could have been substituted mid day and reverted back to the normal supply by the next day, or the next week, or when ever the extra found on the shelf stock ran out. The Omni/Horizon in 78/79 save Chrysler. The K car in 82/83 and the Minivan in 84/85 revived them, everything between was just survival.

I was a dealer tech in 86-87, you had to live through it to fully understand. I suspect things were not much different every time Chrysler has changed hands since the bankruptcy years. That is probably why accurate info on the modern stuff is so sketchy. Gene

great info, thanks.

clears up my brain on how it works now. sounds like rebuilding with the correct gear cogs would make it a 833 like I want in the end. but can use the 833od as is also.

now I just need to score a v6/v8 bellhousing that fits the 833od trans I have. fab up a slave mount & install it. this seems like the best plan.

checked all local JYs and no luck on any 4 or 5 speed anything mopar.

anyone got any leads on one?

Humm?? interesting.

I see Lakewood has a cast alum bell that will fit sb & gen3 hemi accepting the mopar 3 or 4 speed units as well as ferd based tremac 5 speed for use with a 130 tooth flywheel & 10.5 clutch for 300$ +/- free shipping.

I also see they have the same bell for a BB mopar 3/4 speed & tremac 5 speed.

could be the ticket for my 440 truck to get a 833 4 speed someday?

I have a 143 tooth fly and no 130 around here local for sure. except the 82-/6 flywheel and small clutch...

I believe the V6 and V8 Dakota 10.5" clutch trucks are all 130 tooth flywheels, but I haven't counted the teeth. Pretty sure the real 10.5" clutch stuff were 130 tooth and everything that used the 11" clutch were the 143 tooth flywheels. At least that was the difference back then, I believe.

Couldn't the hole for the bearing retainer be opened up to fit? I'm sure it could be done on a Bridgeport.

Raptor, all though the retainer hole was tight, it was dirty/dry going on and did seat all the way. but .. the granny gear 4 speed bolted up to both bells fine. the 2nd bolt patter was not even close to the 833od 4 speed.

I am still researching on the mopar a535-5 speed. I think it is the same as what GM calls the NV1500 light duty 5 speed? either way it is giving me a headache.


looking to score a v6-v8 833/833od bell. I see a couple A-body bells on ebay but me thinks I needs a B-body SB bell housing & B-body trans for correct shifter location in a truck chassis.


so I gots a complete 833od 4 speed from a truck and just need a bell housing. flywheel maybe? mine is a 143 tooth/10.5 & 11" clutch pattern. while I am searching I started fabing up a slave mount on my mech bell that fits the 435 granny tranny, this way I can mock it up on the bench. the stock hydro clutch system is a closed system so I can pump it by hand and get the slave mounted for correct rod travel. or convert it over to the small GM style slave?

it is a toss up at the moment...300$ for the new lakewood cast alum bell for mopar 3 & 4 speed trans-tremac 5 speed or (if confirmed A-body bell can work) for 300$ both off ebay free shipping.

Been 9 months buddy, any more progress? Get through the hurricane ok?

Ive been wondering about the loss of traction here from "scratch-in for traction"

I've been talking with him on phone. Mike is a great guy and retired back in May after 33 years, and got himself a Softail only to have someone run a red light and hit him. He suffered some pretty bad leg injuries and has been through two surgeries (so far). I'll post some pics for him soon and hopefully he'll be back on here soon. Engine is ready to fire btw.

If you are a buddy of Mike's pm me for his number if you want to call him.

Larry

oh no !
thoughts and prayers his way for a speedy recovery !

Yes for sure. If you know him you know what a great guy he is. Always willing to help and just an overall good guy. To say he had a compound fracture in one spot is understatement. I can post some pics. Would it be going too far to post a pic of compound fracture?

Dang, that's rough! I think I have him saved in my contacts.

i have seen compound fractures before, and they aren't pretty ! plus they really hurt !

He's going through rough time so get a hold of him if you can. I'm sure he'd appreciate it. He's a tough guy and will come through it, but his son, grandson, and daughter-in-law just got rear ended while stopped at a railroad crossing to add to it. Fortunately just shook up. Here's the not so gruesome pic of his leg and a couple others.

Hey guys
Been a rough 16 days so far.
3 surgeys with one maybe 2 more to go yet.

Want to give big thumbs up to Larry for helping me update and letting moparts family know that I am ok.

THANK YOU LARRY!

REDRAPTOR..THANK YOU for the call and good talk. Very uplifting to my core.

THANK YOU ALL FOR THE PRAYERS SENT TO THE BOLEMAN FAMILY IN OUR TIME OF NEED.

Hugh Jorgan.. Thanks for checking in...missed the big hurricane all good

Finaly got a shave and feel better today.

I got set up and can catch up

I retired in May 33 yrs state retirement.

Rebuilt my 82 sportster and have 13,000 miles on it.

Helped my buddy build his 83 sportster from scratch. February-September then went up to NC to ride the Dragon .
318 turns in 11 miles...nations highest bike crash area...rode 4 times.

Come home and get T boned 3 blocks from my house.

Not a scratch any where on me but my leg took the hit.

Tib&fib broke at ankle

Tib Plato has hole in it

Tib&fib broke below knee with compound fracture.

2 surgerys plates screws to repair
3rd surgery to remove dead tissue around open wound.

Large open leg wound...wound vac & dressing changes every 4 days

Stiches come out ina week or two.

Still may need surgery for wound care.

Bike got some damage but not a single scratch on any painted surfaces.

Driver in turn lane making a u turn got me with driver front fender headlight grill on a big new caddy suv.

Kinda run out of gas on my truck.

I will see about rounding up a b body 4 speed while i recover.

And hope to bolt in my new 328 cubic inch with a 4 speed.

I have my sons roller whiplash cam 328 cubic inch ready to fire also.

On the far side i have been building my freind a DZ302 chevy engine for his 59 Apache truck.

It should be a high reving little chevy engine.

Built to spec with factory pieces. Should red line about 7000rpm and run in the 305 cubic inch class.

So i have plenty to think on till I can get back at it.




I have a 67 440 to rebuild next.
Not that i need them but would like to spend the time with son and grand son building them for thier future.

Dang Mike, that is a rough time. Best wishes for a full and speedy recovery.

He really enjoyed talking with you! Lifted his spirits.

So good to see you back posting Mike! You and your wealth of knowledge have been missed!

You keep hanging in there! Better days ahead!

Thanks for the update on Scratch. Been wondering about him. Miss his posts.

Yes I know everyday is a good day above ground.


I got surgery again on Monday. I HOPE it's the last one.

Hope to have this wound vac removed and wound stitched up.

That will let me go home.

Home is where i need to be. My wife is battling bone cancer since 2016 and the toxic meds she deals with keeps her sick tired hurting.

She has been my rock for 40yrs this March. I retired ealy to be home with her more and take care of her just being together.

Not working out like we had planned for retirement but we are together till the end.

I am the luckiest man in the world just having her in my life.

Now if i can find a B body 4 speed I have the last pieces needed.

On the hunt.....

I know it's been so rough Mike and home is definitely where you need to be. That's where you will heal the best and you can help each other the most.

Seems there are no 4 speed transmissions around me locally.




I see a few here on moparts but they dont want to ship it.

That sucks....over priced and none available

Any members got a lead on one here in FL.?

What are my options for a rebuilt unit. They seem to be in the 2500$ range for ready to run units
a little out of my budget but isn't everything that way any more.

Another option would be a v8 bell housing that wound fit my 1982 833od with the large 5inch bearing retainer

Which they seem to be like hens teeth also. I have not found any leads yet..

Anyone try one of those new bell from lakewood?

Shows it uses 130 tooth wheel and bolts up 833 4 speed or a 5 speed unit.

Search continues.....

Good news today..been 4 surgeys 26 days and getting ready to go HOME!
Will have a wound vac still and down to 1x A week for bandage changes from 2x a week. Which will be out patient care.
Little more healing then ready for skin graft..which is a process in itself..
But i may have to go in for surgery for the graft then more out patient car.
Not sure when i start PT..still toe touch non weight bearing on leg..
I sure there will be a lot of PT to come to be able to walk again.

I wanted to thank Larry all my moparts family for prayers & support in my recovery.
I am very blessed to still be here. Even though its pretty bad for left leg it could have been worse or me not here at all.
Looking forward with a chin up attude i will recover well and get back to family retirment plans.

Thanks to everone.

Scratchin

Great to hear you're doing better. I hope everything goes well as it can with the recovery process and healing.

great to hear the recovery process is starting out well !
like the saying goes : "you have a long and tough row to hoe", but with the positive attitude you are showing, i firmly believe you will come through this [as another saying goes] "with flying colors" !

Hope you heal quickly and fully, and that your wife also heals.