Moparts

some info on the Nikola Semi Truck

Posted By: theraif

some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/22/21 06:14 PM

yah that would work Nikola says that the truck can charge from 10 to 80 percent in two hours claims can travel up to 500 miles. also Last year, founder and executive chairman Trevor Milton stepped down amid fraud investigations

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38569564/nikola-electric-semi-trucks-delivered/
Posted By: Mastershake340

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/22/21 06:44 PM

The whole seems to me to be a scam and they aren't going to make a profit with the present technology.
I work for a truck OEM and my company has been working on EV technology for some time now. We are just now starting to deliver our first EV school busses after years of development. Since the busses are on the same basic platform as medium duty trucks they are working on making some EV medium duty trucks which could be on the market in the near future . Given the variety of vocations trucks are used in, there aren't too many where EV is practical. School buses are possibly practical for being EV as they sit all night in a depot and can be charged there, then after the morning run, go back to the depot and can be charged more before going out for the afternoon duties.
Perhaps EV medium duty trucks used in urban delivery type roles can be practical too, if they are used for the day and then get charged overnight before going out for another day of work.
But over the road EV trucks are a long way from ever being practical. I heard some proposal a while back to have OTR EV semis pull into specially equipped truck stops where their discharged battery packs could be swapped for fully charged ones in about the time it takes to fill up a diesel rig, but I don't think that idea went anywhere. I hear more talk about fuel cell development than I do about making everything EV at this point.
A number of vocations I don't see EV every being practical regardless of how far EV technology advances. I work on the severe service platform and very little of what I work on can work with EV from what I see, For example fire trucks. They run out to emergencies where they might sit running and operating for hours with lights flashing, large volume pumps pumping, ladders being raised and lowered, how will a battery pack ever be able to work for that duty?
I'm not involved in advanced programs tasked with replacing diesel but what I've stated is based on things I hear at work.
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/22/21 07:20 PM

I’m retired PACCAR (Kenworth, Peterbilt, DAF trucks). PACCAR has been working on this tech for over 20 years. The first class 8 are coming out of development. Interesting that the first Nikola trucks were sold to the California ports, they are incredibly anti-ice, anti petroleum. We were selling LNG trucks to them over 12 years ago.
The cost of these trucks is very high, and we will all pay it.
Posted By: Sunroofcuda

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/22/21 10:42 PM

I have a better idea - I have been very involved as a supplier to the class 8 market since 2001 - exhaust related.

My idea = diesel trucks. Remember the 2010 emissions? Word was when one was running, it was emitting cleaner air out the stacks than we normally breathe. I know engineers like to be innovative, & there is this curious urgency to "move forward" in today's era, but you know what? The wheel has already been invented.
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/22/21 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Sunroofcuda
I have a better idea - I have been very involved as a supplier to the class 8 market since 2001 - exhaust related.

My idea = diesel trucks. Remember the 2010 emissions? Word was when one was running, it was emitting cleaner air out the stacks than we normally breathe. I know engineers like to be innovative, & there is this curious urgency to "move forward" in today's era, but you know what? The wheel has already been invented.


I remember that “cleaner than we breathe” stuff. What’s always left off is that it’s only true for 2 exhaust components, oxides of nitrogen and something else that I forget. It’s not true for carbon monoxide and other pollutants, but it makes for good conversation. Don’t get me wrong, I’m no environmentalist greenie, not by a long shot!
Posted By: Bad340fish

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/22/21 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Sunroofcuda
I have a better idea - I have been very involved as a supplier to the class 8 market since 2001 - exhaust related.

My idea = diesel trucks. Remember the 2010 emissions? Word was when one was running, it was emitting cleaner air out the stacks than we normally breathe. I know engineers like to be innovative, & there is this curious urgency to "move forward" in today's era, but you know what? The wheel has already been invented.


We recently had a 2018 F750 get totaled at work. Due to the shortages with trucks and our unique needs we bought a used one from another Distributor to tie us over. We bought an 06 Kenworth so no DEF and no DPF. I had forgotten what a diesel truck smelled like haha. Nor surprisingly it has more power and gets better mileage.
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/22/21 11:32 PM

Diesel fuel used to have 3000-5000 ppm sulfur back in the day. In the 90’s it was regulated down to 500ppm, now it’s 15 ppm….ULSD. Diesel is far cleaner now, but it’s been a rough road….CAT failed with its ACERT engines and pulled out of the over the road truck engine market.
Posted By: nuthinbutmopar

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/23/21 12:22 AM

[quote=Mastershake340} A number of vocations I don't see EV every being practical regardless of how far EV technology advances. For example fire trucks. They run out to emergencies where they might sit running and operating for hours with lights flashing, large volume pumps pumping, ladders being raised and lowered, how will a battery pack ever be able to work for that duty?[/quote]

Did you see this article about Vancouver, BC, putting an electric firetruck in service?

Electric Firetruck?

The claim it will work great, even though it needs a diesel "helper" engine, and doesn't pump as much water as a regular unit, and ONLY costs 20% more...
Posted By: Sunroofcuda

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/23/21 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by Pacnorthcuda
Diesel fuel used to have 3000-5000 ppm sulfur back in the day. In the 90’s it was regulated down to 500ppm, now it’s 15 ppm….ULSD. Diesel is far cleaner now, but it’s been a rough road….CAT failed with its ACERT engines and pulled out of the over the road truck engine market.


Let's get to the point of it all. Since ALL of 2008, we have had new diesel trucks running the new emissions motors & systems - VERY expensive, very undependable, terrible resale on the class-8 & medium duties, & shorter engine life. Also, with the ULS diesel, there is virtually no lubricity in the fuels anymore, so everybody is dumping additives into the tanks to make up for the loss in sulfur. I would bet there is NO measurable improvement in air quality. So what have we accomplished aside from "moving forward?" I'd say we've taken a few major steps backward.
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/23/21 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by Sunroofcuda
Originally Posted by Pacnorthcuda
Diesel fuel used to have 3000-5000 ppm sulfur back in the day. In the 90’s it was regulated down to 500ppm, now it’s 15 ppm….ULSD. Diesel is far cleaner now, but it’s been a rough road….CAT failed with its ACERT engines and pulled out of the over the road truck engine market.


Let's get to the point of it all. Since ALL of 2008, we have had new diesel trucks running the new emissions motors & systems - VERY expensive, very undependable, terrible resale on the class-8 & medium duties, & shorter engine life. Also, with the ULS diesel, there is virtually no lubricity in the fuels anymore, so everybody is dumping additives into the tanks to make up for the loss in sulfur. I would bet there is NO measurable improvement in air quality. So what have we accomplished aside from "moving forward?" I'd say we've taken a few major steps backward.


LA is far cleaner, by all metrics, but it’s been at great cost, worth it? Maybe, maybe not.
Posted By: TJP

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/23/21 03:07 AM

My question with the big Push to EV technology is, Where is all this electricity going to come from when certain areas already face shortages and brown out's?
Solar isn't there yet,
Wind farms aren't going to do it,
The recharge time isn't there yet,
The batteries are getting better but not there yet for long distances,
IMO we are putting the cart in front of the horse as the demand will skyrocket twocents shruggy
Posted By: Dcuda69

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/23/21 03:25 AM

Originally Posted by TJP
My question with the big Push to EV technology is, Where is all this electricity going to come from when certain areas already face shortages and brown out's?
Solar isn't there yet,
Wind farms aren't going to do it,
The recharge time isn't there yet,
The batteries are getting better but not there yet for long distances,
IMO we are putting the cart in front of the horse as the demand will skyrocket twocents shruggy


Send those questions/statements to DC....there's a bunch of idiots there who have failed to think that far ahead.
Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/23/21 03:45 AM

I worked for Idealease which basically rents International trucks to lots of companies. The debacle of the MaxxForce engines kept me wondering how Navistar didn't go out of business! The mechanics were pulling out their hair trying to keep these trucks on the road. Replacing emissions systems constantly and having to regen sometimes daily and if a driver didn't pull over for a regen when it called for it the truck would shut down! Kept our tow truck drivers pretty busy... laugh2
Posted By: Mastershake340

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/23/21 04:14 AM

If Cummins hadn’t agreed to sell Navistar their aftertreatment devices and engines after the Maxxforce 2010 emissions epic failure, the company would have gone bankrupt.
We survived and recovered, and since last July you can’t even order an International truck as the production schedule is completely full through 2022 and maybe even into 2023.
The Navistar engine business did essentially die though. Only a big bore Scania engine is still manufactured by Navistar for class 8 trucks.
It was announced a few weeks ago we hit 131% of bonus metrics so I’ll be looking forward to getting a nice big bonus check in about a month. punkrocka
Posted By: theraif

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/23/21 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Dcuda69
Originally Posted by TJP
My question with the big Push to EV technology is, Where is all this electricity going to come from when certain areas already face shortages and brown out's?
Solar isn't there yet,
Wind farms aren't going to do it,
The recharge time isn't there yet,
The batteries are getting better but not there yet for long distances,
IMO we are putting the cart in front of the horse as the demand will skyrocket twocents shruggy


Send those questions/statements to DC....there's a bunch of idiots there who have failed to think that far ahead.

if you were inclined to do so. do a youtube search on the coast of EV last one that i watched was getting the cobolt
Posted By: 11secdart

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/23/21 06:21 PM

I drove a 2010 International box truck for about 8 years , it had the automatic trans with no park which I found odd, the truck was very troublesome but it didn't need DEF fluid somehow International got away from needing it that year, the company traded it on a new Idealease one about a year or so before they let me go , it did take DEF and seemed to run better its had a Cummins diesel whereas the old one was an International. In the old truck I was coming back to N.J. from a delivery on Long Island on the L.I.E. and the truck just died the muffler was red hot, I let it cool down and the truck still wouldn't run and ended up getting it towed something went wrong in the regeneration system. I think we used rental trucks more than the 2010 box truck as it was always in the shop same goes for the 05 International tractor they bought to pull their tanker trailers always in the shop and breaking down.
Posted By: Mastershake340

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/23/21 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by 11secdart
I drove a 2010 International box truck for about 8 years , it had the automatic trans with no park which I found odd, the truck was very troublesome but it didn't need DEF fluid somehow International got away from needing it that year, the company traded it on a new Idealease one about a year or so before they let me go , it did take DEF and seemed to run better its had a Cummins diesel whereas the old one was an International. In the old truck I was coming back to N.J. from a delivery on Long Island on the L.I.E. and the truck just died the muffler was red hot, I let it cool down and the truck still wouldn't run and ended up getting it towed something went wrong in the regeneration system. I think we used rental trucks more than the 2010 box truck as it was always in the shop same goes for the 05 International tractor they bought to pull their tanker trailers always in the shop and breaking down.

Navistar was working on meeting the strict 2010 emission standards using a system that didn’t use DEF fluid in an after treatment device to meet the standards. It used a massive EGR system instead. Initially Cummins was working on the same concept but changed course when it became clear it wasn’t working out, and went with DEF.
Navistars CEO at the time was dead set on making the concept work and wouldn’t take no for an answer. Not only was it not meeting the standards and required using EPA credits while trying to make it work, but the trucks were breaking down constantly.
The board of directors tossed the CEO and somehow an agreement was made with Cummins to start supplying engines and their after treatment devices again, after they’d got dumped as a supplier. If Cummins had told Navistar to go pound sand it would have been game over.
The ex CEO was subject to many lawsuits for misleading stock holders.
The bad trucks were a big issue as their trade in value was next to nothing. Believe it or not, many were modified to remove the flawed emission control systems and shipped to Viet Nam. So if you ever visit Vietnam and wonder why there are so many 2010-2012 International tractors there pulling trailers, you now know why.
An interesting business story about how a bad CEO can single-handedly trash a company.
Posted By: 11secdart

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/23/21 07:39 PM

Thats interesting ! ...sure answers a lot of questions as to why it wasn't a good truck... also answers why the service dept. at the dealership was always so busy at the time every repair took weeks. The International ( I think it was an 2018 ) they got after the 2010 was a lot better truck.
Posted By: GoodysGotaCuda

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/24/21 03:54 AM

Just here for the popcorn

I can't say much, given what I do for Peterbilt and PACCAR, but we have opinions. scope biggrin


Originally Posted by theraif
yah that would work Nikola says that the truck can charge from 10 to 80 percent in two hours claims can travel up to 500 miles. also Last year, founder and executive chairman Trevor Milton stepped down amid fraud investigations



The original post is referencing two different powertrains. The charging from 10-80% in 2-hours comment is referring to the TRE, all-electric battery powered. The 500mi range comment is related to hydrogen fuel-cell powertrain.
Posted By: Sunroofcuda

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/25/21 11:31 PM

Back when I was the national sales manager for a major aftermarket exhaust manufacturer - around 2009, we made a very memorable call on a large class-8 fleet in Wisconsin. We got involved with talking to the maintenance manager of the fleet, then a bunch of mechanics joined in - people with hands-on real world info. They had all newer stuff - from every brand: Petes, Kenworths, Freightshakers, Macks, & Navistar. This was during the height of the Cascadia vs. Pro Star era - FLEET power units. EVERYBODY was talking about what POS these new emissions trucks were - SO many things wrong. Plugging DPF's, needing to regen all the time, excessive underhood heat talking out wiring, vacuum lines, components, fans, switches, all of them constantly throwing codes, etc. It was a real mess.

I finally asked this group of all the different power units they were using, which one was the "best?" It was pretty unanimous: Navistar Pro Stars. Everything else was junk according to them - worst one was Mack. They said the Macks were at the dealership more than they were on the road. To me, this was a defining moment for the trucking industry. Moving forward in the name of environmentalism. Lots of new technology, but not enough positive results to justify the leap of faith. And yet here we are - now trying to develop & iron-out a whole new type of power - electric. As told to me just this past August by a friend & longtime Chrysler engineer, he said the biggest problem he sees moving forward with EV's is FIRE. He said the biggest problem he sees is that the batteries used to store the juice can combust at any time, & for no apparent reason. He said if you have an electric vehicle & you park it in your garage, you are crazy. He also said that Chrysler is ceasing all engineering efforts on gas-powered vehicles after the end of 2022 & all development efforts will transition to electric vehicles. He said he wants no part of that because he feels it is going to be a big failure - that's when he is going to retire. 2022...............welcome to the brave new world.
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/26/21 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by Sunroofcuda
Back when I was the national sales manager for a major aftermarket exhaust manufacturer - around 2009, we made a very memorable call on a large class-8 fleet in Wisconsin. We got involved with talking to the maintenance manager of the fleet, then a bunch of mechanics joined in - people with hands-on real world info. They had all newer stuff - from every brand: Petes, Kenworths, Freightshakers, Macks, & Navistar. This was during the height of the Cascadia vs. Pro Star era - FLEET power units. EVERYBODY was talking about what POS these new emissions trucks were - SO many things wrong. Plugging DPF's, needing to regen all the time, excessive underhood heat talking out wiring, vacuum lines, components, fans, switches, all of them constantly throwing codes, etc. It was a real mess.

I finally asked this group of all the different power units they were using, which one was the "best?" It was pretty unanimous: Navistar Pro Stars. Everything else was junk according to them - worst one was Mack. They said the Macks were at the dealership more than they were on the road. To me, this was a defining moment for the trucking industry. Moving forward in the name of environmentalism. Lots of new technology, but not enough positive results to justify the leap of faith. And yet here we are - now trying to develop & iron-out a whole new type of power - electric. As told to me just this past August by a friend & longtime Chrysler engineer, he said the biggest problem he sees moving forward with EV's is FIRE. He said the biggest problem he sees is that the batteries used to store the juice can combust at any time, & for no apparent reason. He said if you have an electric vehicle & you park it in your garage, you are crazy. He also said that Chrysler is ceasing all engineering efforts on gas-powered vehicles after the end of 2022 & all development efforts will transition to electric vehicles. He said he wants no part of that because he feels it is going to be a big failure - that's when he is going to retire. 2022...............welcome to the brave new world.


So to paraphrase this….trying to solve the biggest problem with EV’s is foolish. Really?
Posted By: Sniper

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/26/21 01:14 AM

We are starting to transition to lithium batteries in the UPS world. While not as subject to environmental issues or vibration, we don't see any issues. We will see though,
Posted By: Mastershake340

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/26/21 03:36 AM

I’m just glad I’m winding down my engineering career towards early retirement and not going to get caught up in the attempted transition to alternative power.
I’m still skeptical if electric can work economically for most truck use vocations. Cars will be a hard sell also to most.
I’ve heard there is work going on towards development of fuel cells for truck use but I know that’s no panacea either.
I remember a time maybe 10 or 11 years ago where a new 50 mpg fuel economy standard was being instituted by the then president. I was talking to my brother in laws dad, who was a CEO of a non automotive related company telling him I didn’t see any way the automakers could achieve that. His response was “well they’d better!!”
I later thought I should have told him the government should mandate that cancer deaths need to be cut 75% by 2025 or they were going to cut off Medicare and Medicaid payments to all Doctors, hospitals and drug companies, then it will surely happen right? Why not, cancer sucks and we need to cure it. Just pass a bill is all that’s needed.
I’m not sure what happened with that 50 mpg standard, as looking around at the cars and trucks sold today I’m sure we aren’t getting anywhere near an average of 50 mpg. Lot of smoke and mirrors going on, a lot of postering by blowhard politicians putting out policies they claim will make great strides forward but leave so many outs, loopholes and credits, but years later we see not much really has changed.
In the end the consumer buys what they want and there’s only so much government and manufacturers can do to alter demand.
I recently bought a rare “malaise era” Mopar and it inspired me to work on setting up a display of Malaise era special interest cars for a large car show next year. It’s been really interesting studying that era in automotive history where engineers were tasked with meeting strict new emissions standards, crash standards and improve fuel economy all at the same time, performance of cars and trucks sucked for years while engineers worked at figuring things out. It was mid to late 80s before they really started to get things dialed in, 12 to 15 years.
I don’t think the quality of engineering acumen has improved now to the point we can make dramatic progress today compared to what it took in earlier times in history.
Probably opposite. Look at aviation for example. Read accounts of the Skunk Works in the 50s and 60s where the engineers then got out incredible huge advancement aircraft like the U2, A12 and SR71 in remarkably short times.
Then look at the time it took to get the F35 out more recently and what a cluster that project was. Pretty embarrassing.
Time will tell and maybe I’ll be wrong but I don’t think we are going from 1% EV cars where we are in 2021 to a majority EV anytime soon. Don’t get me wrong, the % will increase, but it will be gradual.





Posted By: Sunroofcuda

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/26/21 04:46 AM



So to paraphrase this….trying to solve the biggest problem with EV’s is foolish. Really? [/quote]

Yep - really. Ask yourself this: why even the push to transition to EV's in the first place? I'll wait..............


The most common answers are typically:

1: We are running out of oil. (not true at all - so that's not valid).
2: Climate change caused by pollution & other man-made emissions. Believe it if you want, but I don't buy it. Mankind & everything we do on this planet equates about to a grain of sand on an elephant's ass.

I believe the real reason for the big push to EV's is about one thing mainly - MONEY. Plus, I think we have a bunch of restless engineers & auto/truck manufacturers. Not satisfied with just restyling & support engineering from year-to-year, I believe they got together & decided to push an entire new concept. The "need" now to completely re-tool, re-engineer, & create a whole new network of supplier products is a huge challenge, & creates a whole new industry, albeit unnecessary. I just can't believe they got people to buy into all of this. It's like the big lie.
Posted By: 6PakBee

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/26/21 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Mastershake340
I’m just glad I’m winding down my engineering career towards early retirement and not going to get caught up in the attempted transition to alternative power.
I’m still skeptical if electric can work economically for most truck use vocations. Cars will be a hard sell also to most.
I’ve heard there is work going on towards development of fuel cells for truck use but I know that’s no panacea either.
I remember a time maybe 10 or 11 years ago where a new 50 mpg fuel economy standard was being instituted by the then president. I was talking to my brother in laws dad, who was a CEO of a non automotive related company telling him I didn’t see any way the automakers could achieve that. His response was “well they’d better!!”
I later thought I should have told him the government should mandate that cancer deaths need to be cut 75% by 2025 or they were going to cut off Medicare and Medicaid payments to all Doctors, hospitals and drug companies, then it will surely happen right? Why not, cancer sucks and we need to cure it. Just pass a bill is all that’s needed.

I’m not sure what happened with that 50 mpg standard, as looking around at the cars and trucks sold today I’m sure we aren’t getting anywhere near an average of 50 mpg. Lot of smoke and mirrors going on, a lot of postering by blowhard politicians putting out policies they claim will make great strides forward but leave so many outs, loopholes and credits, but years later we see not much really has changed.
In the end the consumer buys what they want and there’s only so much government and manufacturers can do to alter demand.
I recently bought a rare “malaise era” Mopar and it inspired me to work on setting up a display of Malaise era special interest cars for a large car show next year. It’s been really interesting studying that era in automotive history where engineers were tasked with meeting strict new emissions standards, crash standards and improve fuel economy all at the same time, performance of cars and trucks sucked for years while engineers worked at figuring things out. It was mid to late 80s before they really started to get things dialed in, 12 to 15 years.
I don’t think the quality of engineering acumen has improved now to the point we can make dramatic progress today compared to what it took in earlier times in history.
Probably opposite. Look at aviation for example. Read accounts of the Skunk Works in the 50s and 60s where the engineers then got out incredible huge advancement aircraft like the U2, A12 and SR71 in remarkably short times.
Then look at the time it took to get the F35 out more recently and what a cluster that project was. Pretty embarrassing.

Time will tell and maybe I’ll be wrong but I don’t think we are going from 1% EV cars where we are in 2021 to a majority EV anytime soon. Don’t get me wrong, the % will increase, but it will be gradual.



I think there are gems of wisdom in this that I totally agree with. As to engineering, I look at something like the Nordberg hoists that were used at the Homestake mine. Acceleration control was accomplished by a tapered drum, all mechanical, super reliable. If that hoist was designed today, it'd have a VFD and a load of other electronics that would require constant tinkering to work. Just think, the atom bomb was designed without any electronic computers and worked. They couldn't get a telescope to work because somebody didn't know the difference between imperial and metric units. Sad.



Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/27/21 04:07 AM

Well most people here know that I lost my 69 Dart GTS and my wife's 78 Pontiac T/A to a lithium ion battery I just put in my drill charger, this was in 2013. I doubt the technology has gotten that much better by now. I worked for Motorola Battery from 1995-98 and could see issues then, and this was just with a little cell phone battery... flame
Posted By: massdaytona

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/27/21 02:32 PM



while tech has certainly expanded , in 1980 i bought a dodge colt, and if memory serves me, i was getting hway mileage of 35ish.... a similar sized car today probably would exceed that mileage, but not by a great amount... as said above... smoke and mirrors...
Posted By: Bad340fish

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/27/21 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by massdaytona


while tech has certainly expanded , in 1980 i bought a dodge colt, and if memory serves me, i was getting hway mileage of 35ish.... a similar sized car today probably would exceed that mileage, but not by a great amount... as said above... smoke and mirrors...


If you were to get t boned by a pickup in the colt you would probably die, todays car would likely allow you walk away. But yeah I agree, we had super high MPG cars in the 80s.
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/27/21 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by Bad340fish
Originally Posted by massdaytona


while tech has certainly expanded , in 1980 i bought a dodge colt, and if memory serves me, i was getting hway mileage of 35ish.... a similar sized car today probably would exceed that mileage, but not by a great amount... as said above... smoke and mirrors...


If you were to get t boned by a pickup in the colt you would probably die, todays car would likely allow you walk away. But yeah I agree, we had super high MPG cars in the 80s.


Reminds me of the GM Geo Metro, damn things got incredible mpg, but were death traps.

As far as battery tech (and electric motors) look what drones can do. If someone said a few years back that we would be playing with drones that could fly thousands of feet up, miles out, with great cameras recording everything I would have said hogwash.
Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/27/21 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by Pacnorthcuda
Originally Posted by Bad340fish
Originally Posted by massdaytona


while tech has certainly expanded , in 1980 i bought a dodge colt, and if memory serves me, i was getting hway mileage of 35ish.... a similar sized car today probably would exceed that mileage, but not by a great amount... as said above... smoke and mirrors...


If you were to get t boned by a pickup in the colt you would probably die, todays car would likely allow you walk away. But yeah I agree, we had super high MPG cars in the 80s.


Reminds me of the GM Geo Metro, damn things got incredible mpg, but were death traps.

As far as battery tech (and electric motors) look what drones can do. If someone said a few years back that we would be playing with drones that could fly thousands of feet up, miles out, with great cameras recording everything I would have said hogwash.


And it is easy to find video's online of drones catching on fire and falling out of the sky... eek
Posted By: Greenwood

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/27/21 07:32 PM

On paper, electrics seem like a good idea for fleet operators whose rigs come home every night. School buses, in-city delivery, etc. However, then you have a huge infrastructure cost for charging. Let's say you have a fleet of 50 trucks, and all require 230V/100 amp charging over night. How much fuel can you buy for the cost of a dedicated substation that can re-power 50 trucks or buses? (Not sure the amperage requirement, but 230/100 is not far off.)
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/27/21 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Rhinodart
Originally Posted by Pacnorthcuda
Originally Posted by Bad340fish
Originally Posted by massdaytona


while tech has certainly expanded , in 1980 i bought a dodge colt, and if memory serves me, i was getting hway mileage of 35ish.... a similar sized car today probably would exceed that mileage, but not by a great amount... as said above... smoke and mirrors...


If you were to get t boned by a pickup in the colt you would probably die, todays car would likely allow you walk away. But yeah I agree, we had super high MPG cars in the 80s.


Reminds me of the GM Geo Metro, damn things got incredible mpg, but were death traps.

As far as battery tech (and electric motors) look what drones can do. If someone said a few years back that we would be playing with drones that could fly thousands of feet up, miles out, with great cameras recording everything I would have said hogwash.


And it is easy to find video's online of drones catching on fire and falling out of the sky... eek


Is it? I just looked by searching drone fire and I see a bunch of vids about drones being used to fight fires and gather info.
Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/27/21 10:46 PM

You need to put in "drones catching on fire" and you will see plenty of posts and pictures...
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/27/21 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by Rhinodart
You need to put in "drones catching on fire" and you will see plenty of posts and pictures...


I don’t need to do anything. Battery tech has come a long way and is advancing. I don’t own an EV, likely never will, but the technology is impressive.
Posted By: 2boltmain

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/28/21 10:00 AM

Electric cars cannot follow the same successful build plan as a drone. A drone is made to be as light as possible to do a specific job. A car or truck is simply already heavy due to the battery- but then factor in all the mandated designs to make it crash safe plus the bells and whistles to make it appeal to the masses and you have a HEAVY lunk to move around. Battery tech is amazing and has made leaps and bounds in just the past 20 years. I just learned- according to the Manhattan Institute that 500,000lbs of earth/material must be extracted to produce an EV battery that weighs 1,000 lbs. This will certainly rape and pillage the planet where the mining takes place.
Posted By: 360view

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/28/21 01:27 PM

I can say with 99% certainty that government led opposition to mining ANYTHING inside the USA is higher than ever.

USA had the first Lithium mine on earth at Gastonia NC. The soft drink 7-Up was invented there.
It is now closed, but not because the ore ran out.

USA had the first rare earth metals mine in Mountain Pass Ca near Nevada border.
It is struggling to re-open.

The joke: If a miner did not mine it, or a farmer grow it, you do not have it,
is not understood by many citizens.
Posted By: Sunroofcuda

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/28/21 04:49 PM


And then there's this company - stock symbol MP. I believe it is booming right now & in the years to come - it HAS to - we need to get away from China as the main source for these rare earth materials. I recently added a bunch of MP shares to my portfolio. I think we will see a resurgence in the mining of materials like these. More & more politicians are realizing that we cannot afford to allow China to hold us hostage anymore.


Company Overview

Sector
Basic Materials
Industry
Metals & Mining
MP Materials Corp., formerly Fortress Value Acquisition Corp., is a producer of rare earth materials. The Company owns and operates the Mountain Pass Rare Earth Mine and Processing Facility (Mountain Pass), which is a rare earth mining and processing site of scale in the Western Hemisphere. The Company is focused on producing Neodymium-Praseodymium (NdPr), Lanthanum, and cerium oxides and carbonates. The Company's NdPr magnets are used in many technologies, including electric vehicles, drones, defense systems, medical equipment, wind turbines, robotics and many others.
Headquarters
6720 Via Austi Parkway, Suite 450
Las Vegas, NV
89119
mpmaterials.com
Posted By: Sunroofcuda

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/28/21 06:02 PM

Just read this article a few minutes ago - it's long, but well worth reading if you are interested in the EV topic. Very timely:


Toyota Warns (Again) About Electrifying All Autos. Is Anyone Listening?


BY BRYAN PRESTON MAR 19, 2021 12:50 PM ET

Depending on how and when you count, Japan’s Toyota is the world’s largest automaker. According to Wheels, Toyota
and Volkswagen vie for the title of the world’s largest, with
each taking the crown from the other as the market moves. That’s including Volkswagen’s inherent advantage of sporting
12 brands versus Toyota’s four. Audi, Lamborghini, Porsche, Bugatti, and Bentley are included in the Volkswagen brand family.

GM, America’s largest automaker, is about half Toyota’s size thanks to its 2009 bankruptcy and restructuring. Toyota is actually a major car manufacturer in the United States; in 2016
it made about 81% of the cars it sold in the U.S. right here in its nearly half a dozen American plants. If you’re driving a Tundra, RAV4, Camry, or Corolla it was probably American-made in a red state. Toyota was among the first to introduce gas-electric hybrid cars into the market, with the Prius twenty years ago.
It hasn’t been afraid to change the car game.

All of this is to point out that Toyota understands both the car market and the infrastructure that supports it perhaps better
than any other manufacturer on the planet. It hasn’t grown its footprint through acquisitions, as Volkswagen has, and it hasn’t undergone bankruptcy and bailout as GM has. Toyota has grown by building reliable cars for decades.

When Toyota offers an opinion on the car market, it’s probably worth listening to. This week, Toyota reiterated an opinion it has offered before. That opinion is straightforward: The world is not yet ready to support a fully electric auto fleet.

Toyota’s head of energy and environmental research Robert Wimmer testified before the Senate this week, and said:
“If we are to make dramatic progress in electrification, it will require overcoming tremendous challenges, including refueling infrastructure, battery availability, consumer acceptance, and affordability.”

Wimmer’s remarks come on the heels of GM’s announcement that it will phase out all gas internal combustion engines (ICE) by 2035. Other manufacturers, including Mini, have followed suit with similar announcements.

Tellingly, both Toyota and Honda have so far declined to
make any such promises. Honda is the world’s largest engine manufacturer when you take its boat, motorcycle, lawnmower, and other engines it makes outside the auto market into account. Honda competes in those markets with Briggs & Stratton and the increased electrification of lawnmowers, weed trimmers, and the like.

Wimmer noted that while manufactures have announced ambitious goals, just 2% of the world’s cars are electric at this point. For price, range, infrastructure, affordability, and other reasons, buyers continue to choose ICE over electric, and that’s even when electric engines are often subsidized with tax breaks to bring pricetags down.

The scale of the switch hasn’t even been introduced into the conversation in any systematic way yet. According to FinancesOnline, there are 289.5 million cars just on U.S. roads as of 2021. About 98 percent of them are gas-powered. Toyota’s RAV4 took the top spot for purchases in the U.S. market in 2019, with Honda’s CR-V in second. GM’s top seller, the Chevy Equinox, comes in at #4 behind the Nissan Rogue. This is in the U.S. market, mind. GM only has one entry in the top 15 in the U.S. Toyota and Honda dominate, with a handful each in the top 15.

Toyota warns that the grid and infrastructure simply aren’t there to support the electrification of the private car fleet. A 2017 U.S. government study found that we would need about 8,500 strategically-placed charge stations to support a fleet of just 7 million electric cars. That’s about six times the current number of electric cars but no one is talking about supporting just 7 million cars. We should be talking about powering about 300 million within the next 20 years, if all manufacturers follow GM and stop making ICE cars.

Simply put, we’re gonna need a bigger energy boat to deal with connecting all those cars to the power grids. A LOT bigger.

But instead of building a bigger boat, we may be shrinking the boat we have now. The power outages in California and Texas — the largest U.S. states by population and by car ownership — exposed issues with powering needs even at current usage levels. Increasing usage of wind and solar, neither of which can be throttled to meet demand, and both of which prove unreliable in crisis, has driven some coal and natural gas generators offline. Wind simply runs counter to needs — it generates too much power when we tend not to need it, and generates too little when we need more. The storage capacity to account for this doesn’t exist yet.

We will need much more generation capacity to power about 300 million cars if we’re all going to be forced to drive electric cars. Whether we’re charging them at home or charging them on the road, we will be charging them frequently. Every gas station you see on the roadside today will have to be wired to charge electric cars, and charge speeds will have to be greatly increased. Current technology enables charges in “as little as 30 minutes,” according to Kelly Blue Book. That best-case-scenario fast charging cannot be done on home power. It uses direct current and specialized systems. Charging at home on alternating current can take a few hours to overnight to fill the battery, and will increase the home power bill. That power, like all electricity in the United States, comes from generators using natural gas, petroleum, coal, nuclear, wind, solar, or hydroelectric power according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration. I left out biomass because, despite Austin, Texas’ experiment with purchasing a biomass plant to help power the city, biomass is proving to be irrelevant in the grand energy scheme thus far. Austin didn’t even turn on its biomass plant during the recent freeze.

Half an hour is an unacceptably long time to spend at an electron pump. It’s about 5 to 10 times longer than a current
trip to the gas pump tends to take when pumps can push
4 to 5 gallons into your tank per minute. That’s for consumer cars, not big rigs that have much larger tanks. Imagine the lines that would form at the pump, every day, all the time, if a single charge time isn’t reduced by 70 to 80 percent. We can expect improvements, but those won’t come without cost. Nothing does. There is no free lunch. Electrifying the auto fleet will require a massive overhaul of the power grid and an enormous increase in power generation. Elon Musk recently said we might need double the amount of power we’re currently generating if we go electric. He’s not saying this from a position of opposing electric cars. His Tesla dominates that market and he presumably wants to sell even more of them.

Toyota has publicly warned about this twice, while its smaller rival GM is pushing to go electric. GM may be virtue signaling
to win favor with those in power in California and Washington and in the media. Toyota’s addressing reality and its record is evidence that it deserves to be heard.

Toyota isn’t saying none of this can be done, by the way.
It’s just saying that so far, the conversation isn’t anywhere near serious enough to get things done.


YOU CAN IGNORE REALITY, BUT YOU CANNOT IGNORE THE CONSEQUENCES OF IGNORING REALITY!
Posted By: Mastershake340

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/28/21 08:31 PM

The article does give some good points and reflects my thinking.
My local Meijers store let Tesla install charging stations in the back of its parking lot, and recently the number of stations increased to maybe double what it was.
Usually when I go shopping there I’ll see 25% of the stations being used. When I look at the Teslas as I drive by, most have no one in them so I wonder where the drivers wander off to. Shopping at Meijers or having a snack at nearby restaurants maybe? Mostly the same cars will still be plugged in there when I leave.
I went there the weekend after Thanksgiving and almost every station was in use. A few more cars and people would have been having to wait, on top of having to kill 20-30 minutes at least for a charge.
And that’s with around 1% of the US car fleet EV.
I just don’t see how things can change dramatically overnight or in 10 years for that matter.
I’ve found the old adage “Life is what happens when you’re busy making plans” to fit in with my philosophy concerning EV. Things may seem to make sense and governments may push something, but what happens may end up not being changed like the best laid plan was.
I’m involved in general aviation and there’s been plans and directives to get lead out of aviation gasoline for 25+ years, but despite a lot of money spent on research and money spent trying to develop a drop in no lead gasoline so far the effort has failed and leaded avgas is still what almost all reciprocating engine planes use. Getting lead out of gas should have been easy right?
When I started in the truck industry 10 years ago there was a lot of push toward propane to replace diesel, and it has only ended up a minor player in truck fuels. A handful of fleets use it and the refuse companies often embraced it because they could get their own fuel from their landfills, but otherwise not much enthusiasm came about in the industry.
My company developed a propane option for school buses, and given how similar propane engines and gasoline engines are, and the problems diesel has had since complex emissions control systems have been required, increasing numbers of customers started asking for gasoline powered buses. It was fairly easy to adapt the propane configurations to gasoline, and then gasoline powered school buses were back in the product line. Imagine that..
Time will tell how powering cars will evolve, but any company devoting all their resources and commitment to just one solution is taking a big risk IMHO. But what do I know!
Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/29/21 01:57 AM

After reading all that, was Edison right all along? Reading about Edison and Tesla and their relationship, then Tesla dying a pauper, you really have to wonder what would have happened if Edison had won the contract... work
Posted By: 360view

Re: some info on the Nikola Semi Truck - 12/29/21 12:57 PM

Toyota is right.

The post from awhile ago about
Porsche/Exxon teaming up to make “carbon free” gasoline from CO2 in the air
using wind powered electricity in the country of Chile
seems wild, but it is probably “more doable” than selling only electric cars in just a few years.

Russia, India and China are not going to stop gasoline, diesel or ....coal use.

As half-American Winston Churchill said:

You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing,
but only after they have failed at trying every other thing.
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