Anyone in PA - I have a vehicle title question..

Are original PA vehicle title documents always printed with colors on them?

I'm emailing with a seller in PA about a car via a reputable auctioneer. He emailed me an image of the car's PA vehicle title. The document has no color to it. I think it's a photocopy. And I don't trust a picture of a photocopied title. He says the car has a been in PA since 1992, but just for starters, the PA title he emailed me is issued in 2019 and says right on it: "Prior Title State: NY"

Anyway - when I search online for "What do PA vehicle titles look like"... the titles are colored green and blue.. I am very suspicious.

But for the benefit o the doubt is there perhaps some class of vehicle titles issued in PA that are black/white.?

If not, I will ask if he can produce the original color document.

Thanks,
- Art

Not much white on 'Commonwealth Of Pennsylvania' titles, most of the white in the side margins. Color shades in the blue range.

NY and PA are salt using states, so Google and ask about the VIN too.

PA titles are not black and white. I suspect its a photocopy as well. Ive had titles from 80s90s2000s, and I've had classic, antique, and reconstructed titles all in my hand at some point of time. They are all colored.

Thanks guys,
Yeah, I think I'm done with the whole deal. The VIN tag itself is also suspect, but not worth discussing here.
The seller has all kinds of explanations, but the explanations just bring up more questions.

Time to stick a fork in it.
- Art

over the years [going back to the 1940's at least] pa titles have been various shades and color combinations.
earlier titles have been combinations of off white and cream with blue or green lettering, progressing through time with various shades of greens and blues, up to modern[ish] times such as the title for my "bus", which is a lightish blue/green in the center with black printing, surrounded by a 3/8" [or so] boarder that mimics the color and design of a dollar bill.
this is then bordered by a white outline that is offset to the right side, which allows a serial number to be printed in the lower left corner.

most titles of later years have a "thing" imprinted into the paper that will will pop out as "copy" [or something like that] in the center when photocopied.

Thx Moparx,

The PA title presented by the seller is dated 2019, and before that it was titled in 1992, in PA.

The car is in NY. Which handles titles differently. So it's weird he is presenting a PA title. The seller says he has driven it 200 miles since 2019 (and prior records I've found online by searching the VIN proves its past mileage history).
It is however NOT titled in NY, because NY doesn't title cars older than 15 or 20 years, I forget which. But a NY buyer surrenders the prior title to the NY DMV when you go to register your car. NY issues you a transferable Registration, and no title. That may be why the seller has a COPY of the PA title. But he seems to say the transfer of sale will be with the PA title..

- Art

as my good friend in jamestown ny says [he has been in the vehicle repair business over 50yrs] there are no ny titles from 1973 back. all you get is a transferable registration.
is it possible the ny buyer/owner never registered the vehicle, and it is still titled in pa ? or he still has the pa title ? [or copy ?]
it's been a while since i did an out of pa transfer, so i would suggest you go to a notary public or a place near you that does transfers on a daily basis, and ask them the proper procedures needed to do an out of state transfer.
there are papers that will have to be filled out, as well as having the serial number verified.
it can be a pain or not, depending upon if you get a good person to help, or someone who couldn't care less about an old car.
you could also look up some of this stuff [i think] on penndot's main web site.
i don't know if this has been any help or not, but i hope you make out good, however it turns out.

NY does not title cars older than 48 years.Title law became effective in the 1973 model year.

Thx, moparx that at least outlines what *should* be done..

The seller says ownership "will be transferred through the NY DMV system using the PA title." So, transfer of ownership will be via the suspicious PA title document, which he still hasn't confirmed is an original document. Seller is not using a transferable NY registration, because he never registered the car in NY.

So that signed PA title is what I'd be taking to the NY DMV. Which I've done many times before --> a signed title that "passes through" many hands untitled, because the car gets flipped and gets passed from owner to owner until one of them finally gets the title in their name. I've done that at NY DMV with a title signed for sale in 1991, I wrote in my name as Buyer in 2012, and they had no issues, so I'm comfortable with that... But this title doesn't appear original.

The seller is a dealer, and apparently drove it the 200 miles since 2019 on dealer plates. I guess he avoids NY sales tax from his 2019 purchase if he never registers it in his name in NY.

But I am not expecting this to clear up enough to go through with a purchase. The VIN tag itself is a badly made amateur replacement, riveted with ordinary household rivets, with one of the digits even reversed. No fendertag. Seller says he doesn't know classic cars and can't find the radiator or trunk edge VIN stampings, the engine "has been machined and the stampings aren't there" - jus excuses.

I think he is realizing he got stuck with a crap badly documented car and wants to unload it with as few questions asked as possible..

Not that anyone at NY DMV will want to see the VIN plate or car, but it's not something I would want to deal with down the road..

Cheers,
- Art

I transferred the registration on a 1969 vehicle from NY to an ND title. What a mess. First the DMV clerk claimed I had to have a title. When I produced the NY website stating in 1969 there were no titles, then I hear that I have to have a bill of sale. I basically started arguing, politely of course, and one of the senior clerks intervened. She looked at my paperwork and basically said "what's the problem?". Had my title in a few minutes. Sometimes you have to argue a bit.

before buying anything out of state without a title I strongly encourage anyone to check with their local DMV / title Inspection requirements with a Picture of the vin tag and a color copy of the title as they vary quite a lot from state to state. This should be done before any money changes hands. I have had several customers get STUCK as Nebraska is very strict. Most have had to get attorney's involved at a substantial cost with the cars eventually being returned

Oh I can only imagine.. NH doesn't have titles either, IIRC.. my brother has dealt with exporting an untitled Mopar overseas. Insane.
However, I've never had problems with NY DMV, they are great, at least in my experience.

..but with this car, I'm not sure the PA title is even an original.. No way any DMV will touch that.
- Art

Depending on the car and the price, I think the title issues are the least of the problems you are looking at.

Is the title notarized? I thought that has to happen for a PA title to be released out of state. I bought my Fury from my good friend in PA and had to be notarized for Michigan to accept it.

I know you're passing on it, but just curious. Lots of red flags!

It appears with reason.

Can you walk away, or afford to take a hit, mentally and financially on the deal?

Yup....I bought my Duster in 2016 from a good guy seller in PA. We had to go into town where he lived, so the title could get notarized, same as Blusmbl had to to. IIRC the original title was green/blue in color?

The PA title is good to keep in case there’s a chain-of-ownership dispute. Do not allow NY to keep it.

Quote

However, I've never had problems with NY DMV, they are great, at least in my experience.

In my customers experience they would not budge, as bad as Nebraska in this case The car wound up going back to the seller as the numbers could not be verified (modified Street rod). Consequently It needed a NY state assigned VIN. The owner had owned the car and had it titled in NY for 20 + years, but they would not issue a Vin for ne. to install Costly experience for all involved, except the attorney's of course

No really being harsh but.... HELLO!..... The VIN tag itself is a badly made amateur replacement, riveted with ordinary household rivets, with one of the digits even reversed.

You could not give me a car as described as such.

I had an interesting experience with a '69 Charger I bought. The VIN on the ND title was a screwy combination of letters and numbers. But the price was right so I took the plunge. Called up the DMV and said I just bought a car with a ND title that the VIN is incorrectly listed. The lady on the phone told me emphatically that the VIN has to be correct, that it is verified with every transaction. So I read off what the VIN was. Silence for a moment and then "that's not a VIN". Gee, you think?

Well, the DMV started running the title and found that it had been transferred in PA years before and the PA DMV had incorrectly entered the VIN. In the end all was good. But it has always tickled me that sometimes people who are so sure of a situation.....aren't.

years ago, [late 1980's] i bought a 64 belvedere post car in virginia.
i assembled all the necessary paperwork needed here [pa] at the time. when the virginia owner and i went to the DMV, the lady behind the counter looked at me like i had three eyes !
as there was WAY more paperwork involved in pa for title transfer [especially for an out of state vehicle] than she was used to doing, she was slightly rattled.

then, there is california.
my brother moved there when his employer promoted [? ] him. when it came time to sell his pennsylvania "free rust", er, rust free, oldsmobile, all that was required by california law, was to have the seller [my brother] sign "on the dotted line". no notary required...........
well, it seems that was a BIG mistake !
for the next couple of years, my brother was deluged by the cali DMV calling, writing, and personally visiting him because of incidences involving his former ride ! every time, he told the DMV he had sold the car long ago, [luckily, he wrote down the date, who he sold it to, and their address] and it wasn't his fault the title wasn't transferred. he even spent hours at the local [to him] DMV explaining why there seemed to be issues with his former ride.
the last issue he had with that thing was a phone call. it seemed the car was impounded for some reason, and if he didn't IMMEDIATELY show up at the impound lot, the car would be disposed of ! he said : "HAVE AT IT !"
never heard about that car afterward.............

When I left there in 94, to avoid the issues he experienced, it was recommended that you notify DMV of a sale providing the buyers name vehicle info etc. A simple 1 page form. Failure to do so would result in your being liable for parking tickets and such as you were the last known owner.

yes sir ! after he filled out the paperwork at the DMV, it absolved him of any monies owed, but he still got that final call, which ended that "educational experience" for good.

I bought a car last year with this notification as an actual requirement - his DMV even made it easy by providing the required form as a perforated "tear-off" slip attached to the original title. Upon transfer of ownership to me, he failed to tear this part off the title and send to his DMV as notification of sale, along with taking off his old plates. His mistake became very useful when he failed to come through with the extra original car parts he *said* he'd include with my purchase, but never produced, he just kept making excuses.

So I held onto the Notification of Sale Document and old plates. One day, months later, he texted me about that form, and that he had found the extra parts.
What a tool.
- Art

Some DMVs are great though -

I bought our '65 Satellite in NY, running condition about two hours from my house. A buddy drove me down there for the final purchase and drive home.
I had insurance, cash for sales tax and registration, everything I needed to plate the car and drive it home. All we needed was to bring the docs to the local DMV.

The seller had the Bill of Sale ready, however the title was from the prior MA owner, with ownership transferred to my seller, NOT left blank for me to fill out as the new owner.
So we had no document that would transfer ownership to me.
The DMV was only 10 minutes from Seller's house, in the basement of the Town Hall.
We all showed up and presented the woman with our docs and situation.
She looks things over, turns to her colleague for a short discussion, then comes back to us:

"No problem" -

She handed my Seller a NY Application for Title Transfer, he fills it out and hands it back to her with the prior owner's MA title.
Then the woman typed out a Temporary Transferrable NY Registration in my Seller's name and hands it back to him.
My Seller signs the Transfer of Ownership on the back of his Temp Transfer NY Registration.
I fill out the rest of my info on the Seller's Temp Transfer NY Registration and hand it back to the DMV lady, along with Bill of Sale, Proof of Insurance, and sales tax.
She hands me an Application for NY Registration, which I fill out and hand back.
She types up a Temp NY Registration in my name, a Temp Inspection Sticker, and hands it all back to me with a pair of NY plates.

That was an amazing day at the DMV.

Cheers,
- Art

Some times you just need to talk to someone. My 51 Plymouth has a title that uses the engine serial number not the vehicle serial number, TX law for pre 55's, except Fords. I have the original engine that matches that number in the car.

However, I am building a warmed up 230 from a 52 Dodge to put in the 51. The engine serial number will now no longer match and that is supposed to be checked every year during the safety inspection. So when I renewed my registration this past August I asked the clerk, she wasn't sure so she went to ask for help. A few minutes later the County Tax Assessor (that is who handle this kind of stuff here) herself came out with the paperwork and information I needed.

Due to the peculiarities of Texas law in this regard, I can get a new title with the new engine serial number on it but if I ever want to put the original back in I have to retitle it.

Or I can play swap the engines every year to get it inspected then swap back.

Or I can get antique plates and do the swap after that, which means no more yearly inspections but limitations on when and how I can enjoy my car.

This post reinforces what i have said many times, When buting a car out of state, get pictures of the vin and title> take the to your local DMV or inspection station and verify they are acceptable for transfer. I advise getting the persons name that approves it and deal with them only.
Failure to do so can result in getting stuck with a vehicle you can't register, drive, insure, or sell and LAWYER fee's. If the seller balks have him send the pic's info directly to the individual at DMV via email or Fed ex o'nite.
Some here may think I'm being a bit paranoid, but if you knew the issues some of my customers have encountered you may change your mind

Sniper, You might ask about the possibility Of having them to issue a state assigned VIN with a new title to avoid the issue with the motor swapping/ vin issue. It really cleans things up for you and any subsequent owners. just a suggestion

Yes, that might be an option. Thanks

especially if anything looks weird.. or that gut feeling.
- Art

A PA title is printed in color on non-white paper. Also, when you photocopy a real PA title there are watermarks that appear on the copy that say invalid or something like that. I can post an example later.
PJ

you are correct. i posted something earlier about the title showing something on it if it were photocopied.