Used Car NIGHTMARE

This may be a bit long so please be patient.

Ive waited to ask these questions until I got the title from the used car dealer, which I got today. Ive not driven the car for the issues I found and wanted to wait till I got the title.

Im not sure if this car was a flood car or just a wrecked car. I think wrecked.

The back of the title is filled fully up with three different hand writings and two different color of inks.

On the day I bought it as the paper work shows carfax with the date printed shows zero issues, no accidents, floods, ect...

I know a dealer can lie about things but can he sell an unsafe car?

Note the carfax showing clean, its had both passenger doors replaced or reskinned, upon further looking the bottom of the rocker was crushed in front to back and was filled with body filler. Horrific work on the repairs.

It seems to of been hit so hard that the bolts or rivits in the passenger seat were/are broke out.

I know most the time when you by something its as is but can they do things to hide the damage and one of the parties involves is one of the regions biggest dealerships, so no one can claim things were overlooked on there end.

What pics would you folks need to see to get some feedback? Ive many.

THANKS,.

Also if I do have recourse, do I go ahead and title it in my name but before get color certified copies?

Not a charger may help...He is an insurance expert.

I hope he will jump in, its pretty interesting and pretty F-d up.

Dates and mileage on title dont jive with the car fax.

Tons of damage clearly was tried to be hidden vs disclosed or fixed right.

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Carfax won't know what wasn't reported. Obviously there was some damage and the repairs probably weren't paid for by an insurance company. Just who did it and when is probably going to be hard to find out. I personally would have a sit down talk with the dealer you bought it from before doing anything. If they are reputable they should take it back unless you signed an AS IS sale agreement but even then hidden damage like this can be a cause for them to work with you regardless of that.
Some body screwed up on the odometer but I wouldn't trust carfaxes number at all.

The first set of number listed before each date is the dealer ID number, not a mileage number. It simply means the car was passed around to a few dealers pretty quickly. That's not real unusual. Many large dealerships won't keep a car around that is past a certain age or mileage. Many will sell it to a smaller dealer, and that smaller dealer could have taken it to an auto auction.

Carfax is as good as the last update.

Seat frame: I ran a small welding shop for 25 years. I've welded up a bunch of car seat frames. Most car seat frames are not designed for the super big people. When the sit in them and wiggle around (ever seen a big person get in or out of a smaller car? Its a wonder some last as long as they do), the seat frames crack and break.
Rusted and patched rocker: Rust happens in the rust belt. Repairs are not always that good. You would be amazed what people will do before they trade in a car, just to get a few more $$$ for their trade in. The dealer may, or may not have know about the rockers, but many wouldn't care on an older car. If it looks good, they get more money out of it.

Sorry to say, but it sounds like you should have checked the car over better before you spent your money on it. Its your's now. What are you going to do with it? Gene

Thats why I asked if ive any recourse. I figured ive got what I got. And I can replace the rocker, its not that big of a deal. I just dont like not being told the truth.

He handed me the carfax and said it was accurate and the car had no repairs other then the front plastic bumper repainted. I looked it over a bit but didnt feel the need to look at the rockers since he just said it wasnt wrecked.

The back of the title is ugly and the dates dont jive with alot of the other dates on things n ways id never try to get away with.

But I dont understand on the title how it can go through three trans with different dealers with the same hand writing?



This cars the reason I went and bought a new hellcat charger, ive not bought a used car in the last 30 years I just keep them forever.

Follow the game............not the ball.

"carfax"...............now how are they connected to ANY government agency?

That"s what i thought.




Sounds like you bought something "sight unseen". Unless You got it at less than auction price and are mechanically prepared to rebuild a pile of junk...............can't feel your sorrow.

Cut your losses, sell it for scrap and move on.

i have worked at new card dealers for over 30 years. i spent a few years in the used car area during this time. i have also been part owner of a used car lot.

fist EVERY STATES LAWS ARE DIFFERENT. so what happens in my state might be different than yours.

first EVERY USED CAR sold is sold AS IS by a dealership. even new car demos are sold as is. there are factory warranties and other extended warranties sold by the dealer. but the cars are sold as is. for the most part once you sign the papers and pay the $$$ you own it.
there are certain laws regarding the window inspection sticker they have to follow. basically if it's checked off on the window sticker as being good it HAS to be GOOD. if it says the radio works the radio MUST WORK. it doesn't have to work perfect, but if it works they are good to go. the most serious violation is emissions systems. basically a dealer cannot sell a car that won't pass emissions.
structural damages are usually part of this window sticker. it gets to be a gray area of repaired structural damages. if you don't easily see the repaired areas the enforcement agencies usually side with the dealer. now if the car has hacked repairs where a blind man can see the damages and drives down the road sideways then the buyer has a case.

on writing on the back of the original title.
as least in Wisconsin the buyer will not get the original title when buying a car from a dealer. the buyer signs the title on purchase and then it's sent by the DEALER to the DMV for processing a title and mailed to the buyer. in the past some dealers went to the DMV and got titles for the buyer over the counter along with plates. the laws have changed a bit and there are satellite processing places but this is irrelevant to the main subject.
when a dealer buys a car from another dealer it gets signed at the first dealer then sent to the next dealer. he signs it and if it goes to another dealer the same thing happens. you can usually do this 3 times and then the dealer must get a title in their name and the process starts all over. if the title is altered in any way it becomes void and a complicated process begins to get a title.

as far as carfax not showing damages.
in most cases carfax is mostly a marketing gimmick. if repairs are not done at a licensed repair shop at RETAIL it usually won't show up on a carfax. i own a 08 bullitt mustang. the car has been totaled 3 times, one of those times it had significant structural damages. it was repaired off the books and the car has a perfectly clean carfax. if the hack rocker repairs were done internally it usually won't show up on a carfax. also there can be significant delays between the actual repairs and when it shows up on the carfax. at the dealer i work at now has purchased back cars 7-8 months after the sale because of a surprise report of structural repairs done in the past. they didn't HAVE to do this, but we have been in business over 100 years and their reputation is more important than a couple of thousand $$.

hope this info helps. but again EVERY STATE HAS DIFFERENT LAWS. if there is a major problem with the car contact a lawyer in your state for accurate info.

Like I said, he needs to talk to the dealer he bought it from first and see what they say. Absolutely no sense in getting worked up and taking some sort of legal action when the dealer may just take the car back. Why make it harder than it has to be?

i am not disagreeing with you.
talk to the dealer first. but from my experience he won't get very far.
the dealer will probably be in this position, it's the customers responsibility to fully inspect the car before purchase. be bought it, he paid for it, he owns it.

as others have posted seat frames break from wear and tear a LOT. now if the seat belt is integrated into the seat then this could be a serious problem.

Thanks fort he input, I will talk to the dealer. I looked at my states DMV site on dealer fraud and damage aside there paperwork vs the info from the NMVTIS someone is trying to skirt something on this car, its plain as day, like looking at two sets of books that should be the same.

Anyway it should be interesting.

What sucks is I like the car, I can fix whats wrong, but they got rules they must play by and in this case it dont look liike they have.

My states DMV site does suggest trying to work it out with the dealer then if nothing productive happens they have the forms to fill out to get the state AG involved.

But I can tell ya, over the years ive seen alot of stuff that dont add up on cars, titles and paperwork and this deal here has red flags the size of texas.

The more I wrote the more confusing I can make it sound so I will report what comes of things.

There is a time delay between a car getting sold at auction and when the Carfax is updated. If a dealer is the winning bidder on a car that will have issues when the Carfax is updated, he will run a Carfax immediately after buying it so the report still looks clean. Carfax won't show repairs if the car owner is self-insured. Especially true with rental cars and other fleets. My friend worked at a dealership and the used car manager bought several former rental vehicles at auciton. Every one of them had a clean Carfax and chassis damage.

Too many title flips close together means the first dealer got stung by the prior owner (probably shoddy off-the-books repairs) and he tried offing it to another dealer. Years ago, my neighbor got in a bad wreck with a 2-year-old Mercury Sable. His brother the backyard bodyman put it back together (can you say 'gallons of Bondo'....). My neighbor promptly traded the car in on a new one. I heard through the grapevine that the dealer really got screwed on that deal.

Bummer pOtO.... how does it drive ?

As stated CarFax is only as good as the data provided to them. My experience is that most of the time, the info listed on CarFax is accurate, but accurate does not equal complete. Errors are much less common than omissions.

The dealership will play dumb and argue that the clean CarFax absolves them of responsibility, but an counter argument can be made that they are experts, and as such, should have inspected the vehicle and found these obvious flaws. The title should've been a significant red flag.

I would contact an attorney and have them deal with the dealership, and I would also ask the attorney whether or not you should transfer the title into your name. I suspect the attorney will tell you not to do so, as you may need the current title as evidence.

I will never buy a car sight unseen again unless I have it inspected by someone knowledgeable and trustworthy. A Moparts member screwed me hard because he has a good reputation, and he knew he could sell me his POS for top dollar, and that I would take his word for it that it was a good car, when in fact, it was a death trap. I'm sorry you got screwed here as well.

Carfax epitomizes GIGO.

Garbage in, garbage out. As far a any sort of legal documenting CARFAX is specious as a source. Almost like using Wikipedia as a source.

Ive put 6 miles on it and it runs and drives. stops straight.

WELL after a bit more thought and talking to the wife. As angry as I am its been scuffed and semi fixed, I can fix it properly.

I really like the car, its like a mini charger in alot of ways.

It looks like my hellcat chargers offspring.

Ive already spent $1200 on all the missing aero stuff that should be on the underside but wasnt? (not put on yet)

Its spent its life in El Paso and the New Mexico... its dusty and dirty in alot of places but no rust or corrosion of any kind.

SO I could let this eat me up and chase it or just suck it up and realize ive got alot more and bigger issues in life then the let this deal of maybe paying $2500 too much mess with me.

So I guess I will just run the title through and make it right and make the best of it...... Does it make sense that some things ya just got to let go of?

AND its a great reminder that if IM expecting a NEW car, buy it NEW.

Hell its got so many of the good options and even the remote start works great.

Like what was already stated - you may be looking at dealer fraud. You may be able to unwind the deal, but again it depends on how it was sold and the your state laws. Was it sold "as is?" Was there any warranty whatsoever? If you intend to keep it then none of this matters, but if you want your money back its best to act sooner rather than later.

No way I would let it go, but that's your call to make. Who knows what else was screwed up by the hacks that "fixed" it? Lots of "fix it and flip it" guys will cut any corner just to increase their profit, even if it compromises safety or performance.

I suppose I could write a couple certified letters and shake some trees. Ive never took anyone to court but as hokey as the title paperwork is I could for next to nothing fill out the paperwork and name all three on the title and maybe they would want to do something vs go to court. Not to mention trying to find out when the damage was done and who fixed it. What im getting at is and im probably wrong but it might be easier for them to make things right vs court.



The search engines are semi good with newer car vins and info. Ive found alot on the car in the last 24 hours.

The smart thing for them to do is to make it right. A poor repair to the rocker panel on a unibody vehicle is a structural issue, and that's not something they should want to have their name on. They either knew, or should have known.

need a lot more info,
Did you buy this over the net?
How far way is the dealer ?
Did they claim accident free etc.
Did you check his background / reviews??
Possibly a case for BBB arbitration, their states DMV or Attorney general
What year model etc.
What did you pay with transportation ?

I would contact them ASAP in writing (Email is fine) about the problem(s) and do nothing else PERIOD until you get a response. It's a 3 day weekend so you may have to wait until Tuesday to get a response or follow up with a phone call.

As previously mentioned depending on the state there can be a lot of different resources available. AND NO DO NOT TITLE IT !

Rocker panel, half bashed in and other places filled with body filler.

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Both doors had work, lower front should have drain hole, its glazed over.

[censored] paint work.

Security stickers gone off doors, they were replaced with used or reskinned.

Pass seat partially busted, from the crash?

Yea, they should do something, thay cant say they didnt know and still passed it as crash free.

Im about a grand in on the mopar parts for all the aero stuff that should of been under the car or what wasnt cut off with a razor knife.

Ive not put it on yet.

now im really angry again.....

I think I will start with the big dealer who has owned the car twice since it was new since there faulty paperwork shows it was drive 3 miles from big dealer to middle dealer? to the dealer I got it from.

Im finding a connection between the middle dealer and the dealer I got it from.

See the sales dates on the title?

These are not accurate at all and all filled in by the same pen/same person..... but there internet ads (even when the big dealer) had it online for sale dont add up.

I dont think they can skirt dates or mileage claims on the title??

When I posted this on the 24th it had been up for 20 days (ive a screenshot) per the title paperwork he didnt even have the car then.

2020-05-27 P L Ford Of Raton
NM 87740 Listed for sale
Listing Price: $9,998
Vehicle Mileage: 85,693 miles
Vehicle Color: Vitamin C

This is when big dealer had it... miles... 85,693 This guy? has over 20 dealerships.

This damage is not that fresh... people knew this car was wrecked/repaired.

Current miles including the 125 when they drove it to me, the sellers paid drivers.

No way would I accept that car. Ever.

So ya think I got some teeth to bite with?

Would you go after everyone on the title? And let the court figure it out?

I'd go after the dealer. I don't think you have standing to go after anyone else. The dealer is also the most likely to respond and take it seriously. If you calmly/politely point out the issues to them, emphasizing that this is a structural issue on any unibody vehicle, I think that will help.

Nothing helpful to add, sorry but my thought on all this is I'd be worried about this mess coming back on ME.

Hell, I've seen people on YouTube get bent and scream bloody murder over much, MUCH less on a new car. I know as a viewer you only see one side of the story, but in one case, based on what was shown with how a dealer handled the problem, he's pretty much sworn off GM products (he had to go to GM Corporate to get restitution).

Good luck.

Nothing helpful to add, sorry but my thought on all this is I'd be worried about this mess coming back on ME.

Im a bit slow some times, but who is the ME?

Me, as in potato?

I was speaking as if I was in your shoes. You bought the car with issues, chose to just let them go, then later on those problems (could) come back to you.

Make sense?

I got ya, another words go after them.

Yes.

lol, you don't have a leg to stand on. What kind of Idiot buys a car from a Stealership without looking at it?

The same idiot that trusted you one time without knowing you. Move on ya obnoxious drunk.

Start with the dealer you bought it from and work from there. Really the other dealers didn't misrepresent the car to you. If the dealer you bought it from wants to go back to them then that is on them.

Every State is different, but the basic law is very basic on this type of issue.

A dealer has different requirements than an individual. Think of it like this: I have a car I want to sell. I've never sold a car before in my life. (This is actually true.) So, somebody calls me and has an offer. They can come up with half of the cash price, but they have a pickup they want to trade for the other half. They assure me the pickup is worth more than the cash they would owe. I accept, take their cash and their truck and leave the for sale sign in the truck and park it by the road for sale. Next day I sell the truck. Great I figure I am done. Well the truck has issues and the buyer wants to come back to me.

I can clearly claim ignorance and that I am not a dealer. I can't be held responsible as I would not have any way to know there were issues with the vehicle. I can at least make the argument that I would not have the expertise to know something was wrong with the vehicle. It may or may not stand up in court, but I can at least make a good argument.

Now this is what a dealer does every day. Day in and day out, cars come and go. They know what the cars are worth, they know specific cars have specific known issues. They are in the business of knowing this information. In fact, this is what they tell people is the best reason to deal with them over an individual, they know cars.

A dealer also has another major issue. As a dealer there is the warranty of merchantability in play as well. https://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/what-is-the-warranty-of-merchantability.html

You may not be able to use this, but if they mislabeled the vehicle they may very well have failed to live up to it.

At the very least you need to contact a lawyer. Talk to them first, before you take it up with the dealer. The first thing is to decide what you actually want. Do you want to return the car or just get some of the cost of the vehicle back?

I have been told by my fleet dealer that our beat down on trade in value of cruisers is from the Carfax report, when they are involved in crashes, that are reported in state crash reports. My office manager was insisting that even minor mumps with government vehicles required a state crash report. He couldn’t produce where that was written, so I put a stop to it.

If in the end in stuck, im stuck, I will replace the rocker and buy a couple new bare doors and fix it properly. But if I can get a bit back I will, and the way the title was done is really hokey and sine the one big dealer was involved maybe they will or wont care about the bad reviews or press. The local tv channels love stories like this in there wrong doing stories.

Yea, if I could of, of course id of been there in person and looked it over and offered 3k less, but it just wasnt possible in this case so I stupidly trusted someone.

I think most of us who has bought and restored older mopars have had semi similar situations or not.

I started doing basic body and prep work at 9, yes nine for a guy who restored tractors, I started painting at 15. I could of done better work then this at 20.

But at the end of the day if I dump another 2k in parts/paint and my labor ive just got another car I paid too much for, not the end of the world...... BUT all I asked and was expecting was square honest dealings and that didnt happen on the sellers end.

The real ironic part is since the title now shows so many transfers in a week the "net" says they call it a "hot potato" car, geee my screen name.

I love the part it was a dry hot environment car as it will never be outside in the elements from now on.

I can buy a brand new trans off ebay right now for $800 shipped, I can but a 20k motor for less then that.

Its a car I can still work on and it fits in with all my other factory orange cars.

But bottom line is... All I asked and was expecting was square honest dealings and that didnt happen on the sellers end. So hes got some well deserved grief coning one way or another. Hes the one who pushed the carfax report over and over.


I found this on one of my states attorneys sites...

When you sue a car dealership for failing to provide appropriate history or misrepresenting the condition and/or the status of the title you would be entitled to triple damages plus attorney’s fees if you are successful in front of a judge or jury.

This should be interesting.

Best of luck, I hope you get this resolved.

"Does it make sense that some things ya just got to let go of?"

Yes, definitely. But not in this case. Good luck - you did not get what you paid for.

Yep. This is the most accurate post in this thread.

Regards Carfax, only repair facilities that are signed up to report to them will show up on the report.
Joe Schmoe independent shop might have done a ball joint and it wont show
Same with a small body shop that might have fixed the damage with having hit a deer when the owner didnt have full coverage and had to pay cash to get it fixed. Such small, independent shops sometimes dont report. That said, Carfax is still a valuable tool, its just not a bible. Showing ownership history alone is helpful.

As a dealership owner, we tell all customers that we recommend them take the car to a shop of their choosing to have it inspected, if they so desire. Its never a bad idea to do so.
Regards various signatures/ signoffs on titles, no big deal. If anything is out of line, state DMV’s wont process the deal, so dealers generally stay right on top of such things.
You cant legally sell a car without a legit title, so no sense trying to do so. Doesn't get anyone anywhere.
Regards the problems of the OP...... take the car and get it looked at by someone you trust, before pulling the trigger. Sometimes there are two sides to a story, perhaps you have champagne taste, and a beer budget. Maybe you paid for a turd and thats what you got.