R023 1967 Belvedere II 426 4 spd Super Stock owner history?

I have an R023 1967 Belvedere II 426 HEMI 4 spd Super Stock car that I have owned for about 20 years. It is unrestored, was raced hard and put away wet. But it is a very good restorable car with the original VIN tag, fender tag and IBM build card! I have acumulated lots of NOS for it, the engine is on a stand all ready to go and I even have a clean parts car to pick parts from. It has numerous coats of paint on it and still has evidence of several decals and paint stripes. However, I have never been able to find out who actually raced this car and that's why it still sits. It has loads of Red, White and Blue on it layered with coats of primer and black. I have suspicions it could be a Sox and Martin car but haven't fully proven it yet. If it is I want to restore it in original race form but I still need to find out it's actual history. Does anyone know where I can look or who to ask about the '67 R023 cars???

Can you post any pictures? that may jog someone's memory also.

Eric, I would carefully sand away at the layers, and see what is revealed. Photograph everything. There are a ton of RO23 pics on the web, and here on moparts

My Hemi Dart was raced by very few people but even with the bad paint on it when found quite a bit of the history has been uncovered, still a few years lacking that I will try and figure out eventually. I am sure there are a few experts on those model of SS cars, indeed post a pic. Have you tried to get a few layers of paint off to see what is under it?

Here are a few poctures

Is there a way to apply paint stripper to just take off one layer at a time? It might help get someone thinking about it if you say where you found it? There may be a dragstrip in that area. If the car was raced in that region, there may be a former known Mopar racer or someone who may know it? You could also research the speed shops from that area.

At one point you were thinking it might be the 5&50 car. Did anything pan out on that idea? Or was that ruled out?

what does the IBM show for REGION & DEALER?

I talked to Jack Werst and he said he always drove an automatic and his car was always an automatic. Mine was originally a four-speed and had an automatic in it at one time but he said it wasn’t his.

Is there is not a way to slowly and carefully strip some of the black paint off to see what is under it?

Sold new in the Philadelphia region at Hillside Chrysler-Plymouth in Springfield, PA. Dealer went out of business in 1969.

Reasons for Sox and Martin possible history...

My car was a 4 speed car originally and reportedly only 17 4 speed R023 cars were built in '67, it has Red, White and Blue all over it, It sold new in the Eastern region not far from where Sox and Martin were located, I bought it within a 100 miles from where in North Carolina S/M were located.

It is reported that Sox and Martin raced/showed/modified at least 3 1967 R023 cars, all were 4 speeds, all were Red, White and Blue, all were in the NC area...

Start sanding it down, best way. A few cars have bin figured out by sanding one layer at a time.

Sand carefully, I would go by hand with wet sand paper if it were mine.

If lettering starts to appear, follow it & take photos of every little detail.

Try to get one paint layer off at a time.

Well, the S&M color scheme is very well known, BUT the car could have been painted to mimic it.
Their lettering is what you're gonna need; there may be some "witness" in the paint if carefully sanded & polished to see it.
Talking to Buddy Martin would be a really good idea. I think it was Buddy who'd procure the cars. Not sure how many '67 RO cars they had, may have been two, or perhaps 1 440 car and a Hemi car.

I'd be willing to guess that Sox and Martin performed certain "mods" or welded things in places on their cars, but it would be something only the person who did it would know. Fabricators are like artists and can always recognize their work. It may be worth paying for Buddy Martins trip out to check your car if you think its one of their cars. If not, sand a layer at a time, as others have suggested.

What details are known. What was the original color, interior, any options, body in white, etc?
From what I can see, Its looks like it was originally white and then painted blue and bright white?? On the 67 (GTX) S&M car the only blue was the roof and center of the decklid and hood. The sides were all red.

This old thread may help: https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/906235/re-67-hemi-s-s-cars.html

That car pictured above is a GTX, see the hood scoops, fender emblems, and headrest bucket seats in white? RO cars had black bench interiors. Interesting that the gtx
Wheel well and rocker trim is gone and has add the Belvedere II body trim.

See this picture for a better shot of the white interior GTX car. Door panels, 13" square front arm rests, rear seat drop down in center.

Red whit & blue paint jobs were very popular esp around the bicentennial. Why is th top of the quarter panel blue? And by the fuel filler? Sox cars were not blue there. Seems your entire car was blue.
Starting at th bare metal it has the factory primer and white, first coat after that was a dark color. Black or maroon?

Many coats on the side of the car and none are red like Sox cars. I'm not seeing the sox lineage from here.

If you carefully sand paint off you may be able to get a car name or owner name from it and research that to find some history.

I’m sure this R0 car had many owners over the first 10-15 years and it did have many paint jobs. The Paint could have been stripped each time or maybe it was painted over, who knows? Those spots you see where I sanded through the paint were done about 18 years ago. It was then I realized I needed to do it in a slow, layer by layer way so it could be documented and maybe find some lettering. Well, 18 years later I still haven’t had time to do it that way so it sits. It sure would be great if someone kept VIN numbers by owners or someone from that area it obviously was from could identify it or know some history. The fact that 4 speed R0 cars were rare and probably stood out in the day should jog someone’s memory that might read this post!?

They are a pain to identify. I’m still looking for dads.

Maybe this is it? Your Dad's car was mainly Blue and White.

On a side note, if the car had any pinstriping, that stuff bleeds down into the paint, and leaves a trace. I have a car that had some, and after putting some paint stripper on the C pillar, the old pinstriping reappeared.

Herb is correct, they are difficult to identify who had the car unless you know the full history of owners. Two of mine I do, (luckily only the 4th owner on them) but the third is a mystery, although the body is perfect and basically original paint with one lame lacquer respray.

I doubt the car posted is the Sox Car, they only had one real R023, the others were GTX's or clones. The original is accounted for from what I understand.

I have a spreadsheet with a majority of the VINS and SO numbers for the R023 cars and some of the W023 cars.

Just my 2¢

Picture of two of them at Carlisle in 2017

Phew! Thought I remembered them having a 440 car as well as a Hemi.

Nanket: the Belvedere & GTX trims being on the same car tells me that was likely an RO body with GTX trim added to be legal SS/E. Reason would be the lighter RO; S&M wouldn't have to strip seam sealer & etc.

As noted, little build details are good clues; that helped a lot to confirm history on my own car.

The name Dave Christie just popped into my head, as being affiliated with S&M, but I could be wrong. Herb McCandless may know something about the S&M '67s, though I don't know how involved he was with them at that time.

To bad Bob Reed died recently. I'm sure he knew the S&M car well.

Didn't Herb start driving for Sox&Martin in '68?

Topside, we may never know if it was a GTX or RO. Makes sense to use a RO23 car for the weight. but a GTX was much easier to obtain than an RO23 if they were in a hurry.

A lot of people forget that the RO/WO cars weren't built until March of 1967. Sox & Martin started the year out with two cars...a 440 GTX (White interior, bucket seat car), and a plain Belvedere II.

I've heard that the Belvedere was an original 383 car, but have never confirmed. The Belvedere was raced as a flat hood Hemi car at the AHRA Winters at Beeline, and the NHRA Winters at Pomona. There are numerous photos of this car. This car was raced as a flat hood car, a Hemi GTX, and an RO23. You can identify it in the photos as the Belvedere emblem on the fender was replaced with a rectangular Hemi badge (typically found on the lower fender). I believe this car stayed at Sox and Martin through 1968. I know they were contractually obligated to keep one '67 car into 1968.

The 440 GTX remained a 440 car throughout it's career at S&M, they did add the Belvedere trim to the GTX. It remained a 440 car after Sox & Martin sold it. This car always had the GTX emblem on the trunklid (right corner), even after it was sold.

The RO23 car came a little later in 1967. This is the car Dave Strickler drove at Indy. They didn't keep it long. Not even a year.

If you find pictures of the cars at Indy, the Belvedere was #716, the RO23 was #717, and the GTX #718.

There is an entry on dodgecharger.com that says this:

Spring 1967...Hillside Chrysler -Plymouth, Springfield PA- while my 66 barracuda was getting a dealer servicing, strolled into showroom and saw it there- a sparkling white, 67 belvedere track hemi car...new...in the showroom...huge scooped hood, basic black bench seat, rubber floor, trunk mount battery...narrow throwaway tires on 15 inch skinny wheels w dogdish caps...radio delete, of course..but also, heater delete..and a monster hemi up front, fresh from the factory...i almost FAINTED when i sat behind the wheel...realizing what this monster was capable of...i crawled underneath to view the dana, and noticed lack of undercoating..and monstrous springs. Went home completely unable to even speak in normal sentences. (car was sold the next day to area racer.)

That had to be my car!!!

You know that some cats from as far up as Maine would trek down to Pa or Maryland to fetch delivery of special cars such as that. The only one local to me is the "Native American" car, still with its owner but I'm not sure where that one was ordered or picked up from originally.
For sure special unsung hero cars in their own time and beyond. Probably more aero compared to the A-864 and A-990's.

Well that's a cool development, Eric.
The guys memory is off a bit tho. They didn't have hubcaps, and I'm pretty sure they had carpet with no padding.

So, accounting for 4 speed cars: Sawdust has 3, I have 1, Eric has 1, someone has the sox and martin car, there's RO23j71206022 that Mecum sold in Kissimmee in 2013. That's 7 of the 17 accounted for right there. Maybe Erics is the McCandless car? Did the McCandless car come from PA?

The interior of the RO cars was H4X Belvedere II interior with carpet. The wheels should have been 15X6" but they could have put on skinny wheels and caps.

Herb’s car was ordered through AJ Thomas C-P in Memphis.

I have 14 4-speed vins that I have collected, 9 of which I can put some sort of ownership trail to. I do not sell my information. I started putting an original owner list together on the ‘67 cars a number of years ago which progressed into collecting numbers over time.

As far as people traveling to buy these cars...few and far on the original owners. I have found that almost every original owner that I have been able to determine ordered the car through their local dealer. I do not have a lot of Dodge info, but there is a possibility that Mr. Norm ordered a batch similar to the ‘68 cars.

Here’s a car I don’t really know anything about other than it was in SCPA/No. MD in the mid-late 1970’s. I like the color match between this car and the OP’s Car. Maybe sand at some of the C-pillar? It appears this car has some kind of lace design there.

I tracked this picture down on the Internet last night. My car has Blue on the leading edge of the front fenders, Blue on the A and C pillars, White only on the roof, Blue on the tops of the fenders and rear 1/4’s. This “Mr 4 Speed” car sure looks like it could be it!!!

Mine even has the holes for front wheel opening moldings screws...

Note that the McCandless car also has Belvedere II side trim and a white bucket interior. And Keystones. The wheel-opening trim is kinda baffling. Looks like a GTX emblem at the forward fender.

This is my car, which I purchased from Jerry in 1985. Jerry was the second owner and I am the third.

The car was sold by Sellers Sales and Service in Riverdale, Maryland (Dealer Code #37509). The first owner lived in Beltsville, Maryland. I know his name but would rather not publish it here. As far as I can tell the car has never left Maryland and was raced locally.

I have a copy of the Statement Of Origin from Chrysler dated April 12, 1967. I also obtained a copy of the IBM card from Chrysler, and after a lot of research, figured out to decipher the card. The Shipping Order date on the IBM card shows April 12, 1967. The car was delivered on or about April 21, 1967.

It is also one of the 17 four speeds.

Good info. Thanks for sharing.

Glad to add to the discussion. I have been trying to find info about these cars since I have owned it.

I also know of another 4-speed RO car that used to be in Maryland and belonged to a friend of mine. It was red and black and was called the "Solomon Shaker", originally came from Michigan.

FYI - the photo in your post looks like it was taken at 75-80 Drag Way in Monrovia, MD. Also, Jerry's car was featured at 75-80 in Car Craft magazine in the November 1977 issue (very small black and white photo).

Eric,

My car also had the wheel opening mouldings in the front but the rears were gone because the lip was rolled under for additional tire clearance.

Jim

Dads car was ordered out of AJ Thomas, West Memphis Arkansas. Dad picked up his car and John Livingston's car at the factory, they were not delivered to the dealers.

I agree with sixpack, with that much blue around the gas cap, may be that car. Being ordered out of PA excludes it from being Dads.

This thread reminds me that I should have bought the WO car I came across 10 years ago that was run by Lee Cameron and probably bought from Swift Dodge in Sacramento

!!

It would seem that these RO cars would have come with wheel well moulding since they have all the trim and interior of a Belvedere II. I don't know for sure.

I do know that the WO coronets had all the wheel well and body side trim of a Coronet 440.

Because there were so few 4 speed R0 cars built I wonder if it was possible that an unsold car that was sent out to a dealer might get sent back to Detroit to be sold to a buyer that ordered one? If so, my car could still be the one your Dad picked up as his. The dealer that mine supposedly went to was only 400 and some miles from Detroit. Not hard to trailer it back...

From a discussion I had today, the factory backed team at Culpeper Chrysler Plymouth in Virginia was apparently teamed with S&M. I was talking to one of the guys involved on that team and he told me he actually ran at least one S&M Performance Car Clinic for S&M. Their 67 4 speed used to say Follow Your Heart and had the 1970 Rapid Transit System logo on the doors. Someone in Ontario bought that car out of VA and restored it in midnight blue with no lettering and had it in Carlisle a few years back. The team from Culpeper spent time occasionally at S&M’s shop in NC and undoubtedly had some Jake King input. Anyone have a photo of it? My understanding is that the factory backed Culpeper race team considered themselves part of the S&M factory team. I don’t know how many other factory cars in the region were considered part of S&M’s group?

Regarding cars getting moved around, it could have happened. As an example, my car was delivered to Fred E Cain Motors in Wilmington MA, because they had a super stock and ultra stock racing program. But after they received the 67 RO23, they decided to focus exclusively on funny cars. When young Mel Parker walked into the dealership and saw the car, he tried to buy it. They told him no, Sox and Martin are interested in it, we can't sell it to you. Mel came back with his dad, who obviously had some serious influence with the dealer, and bought the car. So had that not happened, most likely S&M would have got it.

Just a little side note, or an FYI, the first batch of ro23’s were built February 12; 1967; that’s on the build sheet on my car, starts off 212. Second item is yes, these cars came with wheel well moldings front and rear. I have found front moldings before, but, the back ones seem to be super rare. I know most everything on this car is a one year production, case in point, chrome moldings top of fenders. I think I have 1 back molding, for the rear, in my attic, still like to get a complete set in good or NOS shape. Dave ss/ea #1355

just like a number of the MOPAR "program" cars ('69 M-codes, Superbirds, etc.) the SPD was common & not much reflection of when they were actually produced

they (R0/W0) all have "212" (Sunday 2/12/67) Scheduled Production Dates
it appears they were actually released/built starting about a week later & in at least 6 batches running into the first weeks of April

R023J71206022 was in CA a number of years ago & "restored" as an automatic car - it was originally a 4-speed car. the owner didn't know any race history and claimed Chrysler Historical didn't have the IBM info/pic/file for this particular car, is that common?

were any additional cars made for Canada or are the 55 cars for "ALL" production?

Absolutely correct. There does not appear to be any particular number as to how many were built in each batch, but the order appears to be Plymouth/Dodge/Plymouth/Dodge...Etc from what I can tell. I know the VIN sequence does not relate to the actual production sequence, but there is quite a large gap from the lowest serial number to the highest that I have found (16,000 #'s). There are quite a few sequentially VIN'd cars though.



I think it's more related to laziness with the Chrysler Historical staff.



No, the 55 number does include any cars shipped to Canada. There were a few Plymouths that went North from what I have found.

I know my car came from Newcastle Chrysler Plymouth Bay Ridge Brooklyn, I don’t know when it was ordered, but one of the original owners lives about 1/2 mile from me. I’ve talked to him about paperwork, but, nothing. But I did find the original build sheet. Dave ss/ea #1355

Quote:

R023J71206022 was in CA a number of years ago & "restored" as an automatic car - it was originally a 4-speed car. the owner didn't know any race history and claimed Chrysler Historical didn't have the IBM info/pic/file for this particular car, is that common?

Little know fact, the IBM card found at Chrysler Historical for an '67 R0 car can be found using a Belvedere II prefix. So, to get the IBM card for the above R0 VIN, you need to request RH23J1206022.

good to know, THANKS!
but wouldn't it have been found
7 - year 1967
1 - plant Lynch Rd.
206022 - sequence number

or is the info sorted by full VIN??

I requested a IBM card for a GTX, they sent a card for a 4 door Monaco with the same last 6 sequential number from a different plant. So they look them up backwards and do not check their work.

I agree, because the IBM card I got for mine has RH23 on it.
I guess I got lucky because I used the RO vin in the request and still got the card. But the cover letter that came back with the card does have the correct RO23 vin on it.

Any idea what happened to the Lee Cameron WO car? I have a friend that's also a member here that is restoring the 70 hemi challenger that replaced the WO coronet. He has a magazine with both cars pictured.
Matt

Brief Encounter, looks like it's a RO23 stick car running SS/E, and has the same colors as yours.

I haven't seen that pic before with Larry Cooper's 68 L023 car in it! Hopefully that car will be on the road again this year...

Another member here on Moparts has the Brief Encounter car. I seem to recall he also has the MSO to go with it.

There was a really good up close front end picture of the car on Facebook.

Sharing a FB picture.

I will have to look up the last owner is was in Lodi, CA

I want to go with dad to look at the OP car. Bad part, he’s in Wisconsin where it is -100 right now lol. I’d say it’s a coin flip at this point if it’s dads. Op has been great talking to me via email. This is an awesome hobby. Appreciate all the help. Nothing would make me happier than finding his car, it’s the last one not accounted for.

It's only -100 outside. It's still 70 inside. I'm sure Eric isn't leaving it out in the weather. Come on up, bring your parka!

They closed the bars and stopped serving beer in Wisconsin! Can the place even function in those kinds of conditions?

HEAVENLY FATHER !

Please keep us posted on what you find out.
Matt

It has been a long few days of below zero weather here! This Sunday it’s supposed to be up to 45 above!!! A nearly 100 degree swing! Yes, I’m hopeful we can finally find out some history on this car and if it’s Herbs, that would be great! It is, of course, in my heated shop with my other “stuff”. Come on up!

The next 30 days is crazy for us. I'm in LA next 4 days for work, then 2 of his car to Birmingham for world of wheels event. Same weekend, taking the Vin #1 55 chrysler 300 to living legends event in Daytona Beach so Vicki Wood who drove it to victory on the beach can be with the car and I can interview her. She's 100 years old and still kicking! Fly back to birmingham that night to pack up the 2 race cars and drive the rig home. Build the set for the documentary on dad that following week, filming the week after that, another trade show in LA for 5 days and then I finally get a break haha. With that said, I'm hoping mid march to make a run out there. My wife is from La Crosse, so hope to make it a duel use trip.

Did your Dad have a Black 65 car, with Mr. 4 Speed on it also?

His car was originally black, then orange, then blue and white. All with the Mr 4 Speed moniker.

Any updates on this thread? Is Eric's car Herb's?


Thanks. Dave

Eric's car is under new ownership . I went and inspected the car over a month ago. It will be heading to SS/AFX for restoration.

Kinda reads like yes this is Dad's missing car?

Mike

It sure does! Congrats to all involved!

After nearly 20 years of searching it was exciting to have Mike McCandless and his wife over to my shop and for him to inspect and verify who raced this car from new! Originally I thought I would restore the car myself when and if I ever found out who raced it but I have to say, I am more than thrilled to see it get restored by someone else, I don't think I have another full restoration in me at my age! I am proud and honored to return Herbs last missing car back to him to be in his museum and I look forward to seeing it as the "Mr. 4 Speed" again!

Great job Eric.

Very cool!. Hopefully Mike can keep up to date on the restoration.

I have another project finishing up first and it has to stop snowing in Minnesota so we come get it haha. Once the weather plays nice, we'll get it out to AZ and start the process.

Very cool story.



Tim

The amazing power of Moparts comes through yet again!

Found this while searching info on these cars. Hoping any owners here know the story on the Carbs used on these cars. What they came with originally, were they not allowed by NHRA, if not allowed how did Chrysler replace them or not. How specifically were they modified?