Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo.

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I think is funny when people say their OPINION could hurt or taint the value of any car. Thats just plain B.S. !!! The value of most anything, cars included, is based on opinion. Some people's opinion on the value of an item carries more weight than others. One person's negative opinion on the value of a car can hurt it. The value of most anything may be based on a collective opinion...Not ONE persons opinion !

Im not trying to add any value or fool anybody by reproducing a fender tag . At least be honest. Of course you are fooling someone. You want to put one on your car to make think people it's the original. Wrong, I dont care what anyone thinks,I just want a tag on my car. Even a novice can spot a repo tag. This has been said by others as well.

These day, with all the social media aviliable to check out a fender tag or other documentation, I think it would be difficult to still get fooled. EVERY high end restored collecter car these day should be suspect and should be checked out using all avail resources befor purchase. High end collectors sure....the average Joe. No. the average Joe believes it's the original. This IS a high end car. Well, mabe in the hight of the mkt it was.

BTW, most of the info I needed to format a tag for my Lynch RD car was in the 70-71 parts book. Page 6 only shows a generic layout. It's not specific to LR. Is there another page in the parts book I'm missing?

What was coded, when it was coded and where it was coded on the tag changed during the year. From what I can tell, there are at least three different code change layouts to the 70 LR tag.

Sorry for the typo, My Challenger was made in Hamtrack My other car is from lynch rd and has it orig tag. I edited the post above. The parts book layout looks simular to a Hamtrack car.

Posted By: THESHAKERPROJECT

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/22/11 06:43 PM

So there was just some of the info listed on the upper part of the tag ??? Then you could have two cars with the same options built at the same plant and both tags could have a different amt of options listed on the upper part. This seems to make sense as my lynch road built Charger with 29 options has only 5 options listed other than trans or engin. Anyone have a pic of a real 71 Challenger trim tag for a Hamtrack built car?

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/22/11 07:23 PM

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Then you could have two cars with the same options built at the same plant and both tags could have a different amt of options listed on the upper part. This seems to make sense as my lynch road built Charger with 29 options has only 5 options listed other than trans or engin. Anyone have a pic of a real 71 Challenger trim tag for a Hamtrack built car?

No; the amount of info on the tag depended on the plant and production date. As Johnrr said earlier; Lynch Rd. tags were unique.

Dave

Posted By: Morty426

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/22/11 07:32 PM

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So there was just some of the info listed on the upper part of the tag ??? Then you could have two cars with the same options built at the same plant and both tags could have a different amt of options listed on the upper part. This seems to make sense as my lynch road built Charger with 29 options has only 5 options listed other than trans or engin. Anyone have a pic of a real 71 Challenger trim tag for a Hamtrack built car?

I have some tags at home.

Is there a reason you don't want to tell us what codes are on the build sheet?

You guessing what is supposed to go on there has a low chance of success.

Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/22/11 07:33 PM

To put it bluntly, most people with the knowledge to properly lay out a tag aren't going to be offering (detailed) assistance as most of them do not promote reproducing (fake) tags in the first place, not to mention all of the fake broadcast sheets that are showing up lately (some being quite convincing especially to novice eyes).

The second thing is that even those that do know can't say with absalute certainty that the new tag layout will match what the factory tag originally had.

Posted By: THESHAKERPROJECT

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/22/11 07:34 PM

Ok ..From A to Y B41 B51 C16 D34 D53 E87 G11 J46 J81 N96 R33 R36 S77 VX1 V6X W23 Y14 T86 There are no A (group) codes. The sticker price for this 71 Challenger was $4752.05 Funny thing about this car is the OPEN 323 rear .It must have been a handful on a rainy day.

Posted By: THESHAKERPROJECT

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/22/11 08:10 PM

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To put it bluntly, most people with the knowledge to properly lay out a tag aren't going to be offering (detailed) assistance as most of them do not promote reproducing (fake) tags in the first place, not to mention all of the fake broadcast sheets that are showing up lately (some being quite convincing especially to novice eyes)....... .... Thanks Scott. I think Galen my have a copy (rubbing)of the Orig tag (he decoaded this car in 91 )so im wating to here back from him. Also, if someone was to purchase a high-end car these days, they should know to have the car checked out by someone other than a novice. The reproduced (fake)tags I have seen have been easy to spot, and Im no expert.

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The second thing is that even those that do know can't say with absalute certainty that the new tag layout will match what the factory tag originally had.

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...I think thats what I was sayin in my above post. Im goint to do my best to find the most information I can to make the most correct looking tag for my car but im sure my reproduced tag is not going to fool anyone...but maybe a novice.

Posted By: Morty426

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/22/11 11:58 PM

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To put it bluntly, most people with the knowledge to properly lay out a tag aren't going to be offering (detailed) assistance as most of them do not promote reproducing (fake) tags in the first place, not to mention all of the fake broadcast sheets that are showing up lately (some being quite convincing especially to novice eyes).

The second thing is that even those that do know can't say with absalute certainty that the new tag layout will match what the factory tag originally had.

Scott - I think it's sad that people with the knowledge don't want to help, but I understand why. A few bad apples have gone around and made fake tags to produce cars that were not as built.

But what are you supposed to do if you don't have the tag? Does that mean you can't restore a car without the original tag?

Take 2 of my 6 Challengers for example.

The first is JS23V1B248xxx - I bought it over 20 years ago it was a former race car. I have 90% of the broadcast sheet. When I bought it I assumed it had black side stripes and no vinyl top. The car is EV2 with runner bumpers. When I got the car I found out it was V68 stripe delete and had evidence of a white vinyl top (that part of the sheet is missing). I had a tag made from the info off the sheet and the evidence I found (the top). I wanted to restore the car but to have no tag on it would look terrible.

My other car is JS29R0B1xxxxxx. For that car I have nothing. Some one removed the tags and is supposedly holding them for ransom, but I don't know who. What am I supposed to do with this car?

I'll agree that a reproduced tag is just a guess at the original.

Thanks
M

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/23/11 12:05 AM

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... my reproduced tag is not going to fool anyone...but maybe a novice.

Then why do it? Novices won't be impressed or care and 'experts' will question the legitimacy of your car. ("If he made a bad fake tag, what else has been changed?")

Sometimes it's better to have no tag than a fake one.

The best and most accurate way to make a replacement tag is using the original as a template. If you do not have the original and have to rely on a third party tag maker to lay it out, you will always question if you got your money's worth. Based on the number of badly made tags I've seen, the chances are good you won't.

Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/23/11 12:20 AM

Morty,

I'm not attempting to play judge and jury and I understand that your situation is a tough one (especially on the Hemi car!) but quite frankly I don't see an easy way rectify it other than digging up the original documentation. Imagine if you had it all made up and then the original stuff shows up on a different car? How would that play out?

Personally I don't see a problem with putting a replacement tag on a car as long as it's represented as such. However, having a reproduction tag would definately negatively affect my assesment of the cars value, and if I didn't know the cars owner or it's history (in detail), it would also raise curiousity about the authenticity of the rest of the car.

Regardless of how well meaning you or anothers efforts are, it's the owners down the road that can be either mislead or misrepresent a car with fake documentation. That can easily lead things down the darker pathways. We've all seen it so I'm sure you know what I mean.

Posted By: lahatte

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/23/11 12:38 AM

I'm curious, how would someone detect a fake tag? I know some people have painted their tags when the car is painted, so any original patina may be lost. So, if a tag looks nice, how would you know if it's original or reproduced?

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/23/11 12:48 AM

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I'm curious, how would someone detect a fake tag? I know some people have painted their tags when the car is painted, so any original patina may be lost. So, if a tag looks nice, how would you know if it's original or reproduced?

There are several ways.

Each plant coded things differently. So what was coded, WHEN it was coded and maybe even WHERE it was coded changed during the production year. If you have looked at a large amount of tags from that year and plant, the differences pop right out.

How the plant physically handled the tag could be different leading to important omissions of certain details specific to certain plants that indicate fake tags.

Posted By: THESHAKERPROJECT

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/23/11 01:46 AM

I woud rather have a reproduced tag than nothing at all. I have enough history and documentation of my car that it would never be considered a fake by anyone. Thers LOTS of reproduction tags out there on some very high end cars. Maybe there orig was rusted out ,lost or just not good enough to put back onto a fully restored car or they dont want to show up at the nats and have there orig trim tag stolen. Would anyone really make an overall assement of a cars value based on just a trim tag ?

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/23/11 02:08 AM

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Would anyone really make an overall assement of a cars value based on just a trim tag ?

Yes. See Scott's post above. Fake things, especially documentation, raise questions.

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/23/11 02:33 AM

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Would anyone really make an overall assement of a cars value based on just a trim tag ?

Not only the value, but the owner's character as well.

Edit;

I figured I better clarify that some, give me a minute or three.........

Posted By: lahatte

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/23/11 02:44 AM

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There are several ways.

Each plant coded things differently. So what was coded, WHEN it was coded and maybe even WHERE it was coded changed during the production year. If you have looked at a large amount of tags from that year and plant, the differences pop right out.

How the plant physically handled the tag could be different leading to important omissions of certain details specific to certain plants that indicate fake tags.

Yes, but if the data is correct, there wouldn't be any way to tell, really.

Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/23/11 02:50 AM

I have no problem with reproduction tags myself.

If someone has a rusty tag or other original data like a broadcast sheet, the data for most cars is available to have a correct reproduction made.

Custom tags also, no one really cares if it is obviously a custom tag.

But when folks do not have the original data to go on & make one up, it steps over a line. If someone guesses at a VON & I know it is in use on a legitimate tag, I'll call it a fake. Others will to.

Fake tags hurt the cars reputation as well as the seller's if the seller is the one that had it made. Sadly, there are places out there that will put anything on a fender tag that anyone wants - for a price.

Anything is available for money to buyers & sellers when niether one of them have scruples. Both are done to make money & done often.

If you are not sure what you are looking at PLEASE try to find someone the does BEFORE you buy a car. Some fakes are very famous, so Google the VIN also just in case.

Posted By: Morty426

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/23/11 03:18 AM

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Morty,

I'm not attempting to play judge and jury and I understand that your situation is a tough one (especially on the Hemi car!) but quite frankly I don't see an easy way rectify it other than digging up the original documentation. Imagine if you had it all made up and then the original stuff shows up on a different car? How would that play out?

Personally I don't see a problem with putting a replacement tag on a car as long as it's represented as such. However, having a reproduction tag would definately negatively affect my assesment of the cars value, and if I didn't know the cars owner or it's history (in detail), it would also raise curiousity about the authenticity of the rest of the car.

Regardless of how well meaning you or anothers efforts are, it's the owners down the road that can be either mislead or misrepresent a car with fake documentation. That can easily lead things down the darker pathways. We've all seen it so I'm sure you know what I mean.

Scott,

I do have my VIN tag so I hope no one is out there trying to build a car around my fender tag that may be out there.

However I do know what you mean. My brother and I had a 1970 Charger R/T Hemi that we restored. The car was brown, column shift with stripe delete. It later found an owner that added a stripe and a Dana 60. It has been on eBay many times with claims about mileage and options that were not original to the car. I would contact the poster and they would change the add, but still.

Morty

Posted By: Morty426

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/23/11 05:06 AM

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Ok ..From A to Y B41 B51 C16 D34 D53 E87 G11 J46 J81 N96 R33 R36 S77 VX1 V6X W23 Y14 T86 There are no A (group) codes. The sticker price for this 71 Challenger was $4752.05 Funny thing about this car is the OPEN 323 rear .It must have been a handful on a rainy day.

If that's what GG gave you for codes you need to ask for your money back

D34 would not be correct.

Also there are codes that would have to be there that you don't have listed. Are you holding out?

If you can email me a copy of your broadcast sheet I can probably help you.

Posted By: THESHAKERPROJECT

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 11/23/11 05:08 AM

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I have no problem with reproduction tags myself.

If someone has a rusty tag or other original data like a broadcast sheet, the data for most cars is available to have a correct reproduction made.

Thank you !!! I have the orig window sticker, broadcast sheet,vin tag and a whold folder of other info on the car from the 80s. I would use ALL the documentation avail to make an assement on a car, not JUST a trim tag. I have been offered stupid money for this car with the buyers knowing that the trim tag was MIA because I have so much other documentation for the car.

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 12/02/11 08:05 PM

A missing FT is only a deal killer to me if there is no BS; with a sheet, the missing tag is less of a big deal....to me anyway. I've always said that despite the fact the FT has less info on it, it is part of the car and the BS isn't....given the choice, I'll take the original FT/no BS car over it's inverse.....but either is acceptable to me.

This thread has made me think: I've always said that despite my dislike for fake and fraudulent documentation that I'd consider a repop FT *IF* there was enough original documentation to back it up...but I'm finding myself leaning towards some that have expressed the opinion that a repop tag raises too many questions and taints the car without adding much to the car.....

I guess it's about "lines in the sand" and where your comfort level is. For me:

- no original tag or BS = no repop tag
- have BS, missing FT = maybe repop tag
- have a rusty but legible FT or pics of original tag = yep, i'd do it

I have dozens of pics of my original FT as well as a couple pencil rubbings.....if my original went AWOL, I'd get a duplicate made.

Dave

Posted By: OneOfMany

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 12/02/11 11:05 PM

Interesting.. I'd take a BS over a fendertag any day.

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 12/03/11 12:02 AM

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Interesting.. I'd take a BS over a fendertag any day.

Yep, you're not alone but I stand by my preference.

On one hand It'd be nice to know which tires my car came with and whether or not it had full wheelcovers, but the FT covers the bulk of the important stuff.

OTOH, I don't have a blank spot where the FT is supposed to live or a repop that makes people question whether or not the car is fake....

....so I'll take the FT any day.....though either is good enough and both is great!

Dave

Posted By: cogen80

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 12/03/11 01:12 PM

if a repo fender tag is going to cast so much doubt about the car shouldn't anything other then an original paint car be in question also? i mean come on now. its pretty damn easy to swap the numbers on a car before its painted. god knows how many "rare" high dollar well known cars out there have had numbers swapped on them back in the day before anyone really cared. i'll bet its a lot more then any would believe.

.

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To put it bluntly, most people with the knowledge to properly lay out a tag aren't going to be offering (detailed) assistance as most of them do not want you in on their game of making fake tags.

fixed.

Posted By: MrNormsTA

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 12/03/11 03:33 PM

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A missing FT is only a deal killer to me if there is no BS; with a sheet, the missing tag is less of a big deal....to me anyway. I've always said that despite the fact the FT has less info on it, it is part of the car and the BS isn't....given the choice, I'll take the original FT/no BS car over it's inverse.....but either is acceptable to me.

This thread has made me think: I've always said that despite my dislike for fake and fraudulent documentation that I'd consider a repop FT *IF* there was enough original documentation to back it up...but I'm finding myself leaning towards some that have expressed the opinion that a repop tag raises too many questions and taints the car without adding much to the car.....

I guess it's about "lines in the sand" and where your comfort level is. For me:

- no original tag or BS = no repop tag
- have BS, missing FT = maybe repop tag
- have a rusty but legible FT or pics of original tag = yep, i'd do it

I have dozens of pics of my original FT as well as a couple pencil rubbings.....if my original went AWOL, I'd get a duplicate made.

Dave

I thought I wrote this myself. My thoughts completely. I am a numbers geek and love broadcast sheets, but if I had a choice over the two, would take an original fender tag for all the reasons above. Also the reason I hold original documentation so highly. I wonder what the masses would prefer if we had a poll?

Rick.

Posted By: THESHAKERPROJECT

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 12/03/11 05:03 PM

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if a repo fender tag is going to cast so much doubt about the car shouldn't anything other then an original paint car be in question also? i mean come on now. its pretty damn easy to swap the numbers on a car before its painted. god knows how many "rare" high dollar well known cars out there have had numbers swapped on them back in the day before anyone really cared. i'll bet its a lot more then any would believe.
...................................................................... Very True... Im reall not in the game of flipping and selling ANY mopars. I have never sold one. I keep them for me and I build them how I want too. I like my cars to look correct and run better than stock using as many correct parts as possable . I think is funny when people say there OPINION could hurt or taint the value of any car. Thats just plain B.S. !!! Im not trying to add any value or fool anybody by reproducing a fender tag . I just want one on my car. These day, with all the social media aviliable to check out a fender tag or other documentation, I think it would be difficult to still get fooled. EVERY high end restored collecter car these day should be suspect and should be checked out using all avail resources befor purchase. BTW, most of the info I needed to format a tag for my Hamtrack car was in the 70-71 parts book. I thank everybody for there opinion, positive or negitive, its all good.

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 12/03/11 08:36 PM

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BTW, most of the info I needed to format a tag for my Lynch RD car was in the 70-71 parts book.

I'm confused; you said in the first post that your car was a Hamtrack built car...you talking about two different cars now?

I think a Lynch Rd tag would be the hardest to "duplicate" seeing as how (IIRC) the gate, line and sequence numbers at the top of the tag appear nowhere else. You'd have to make them up completely

Anyhow,

Dave

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo. - 12/03/11 08:39 PM

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I think is funny when people say their OPINION could hurt or taint the value of any car. Thats just plain B.S. !!! The value of most anything, cars included, is based on opinion. Some people's opinion on the value of an item carries more weight than others. One person's negative opinion on the value of a car can hurt it.

Im not trying to add any value or fool anybody by reproducing a fender tag . At least be honest. Of course you are fooling someone. You want to put one on your car to make think people it's the original.

These day, with all the social media aviliable to check out a fender tag or other documentation, I think it would be difficult to still get fooled. EVERY high end restored collecter car these day should be suspect and should be checked out using all avail resources befor purchase. High end collectors sure....the average Joe. No. the average Joe believes it's the original.

BTW, most of the info I needed to format a tag for my Lynch RD car was in the 70-71 parts book. Page 6 only shows a generic layout. It's not specific to LR. Is there another page in the parts book I'm missing?

What was coded, when it was coded and where it was coded on the tag changed during the year. From what I can tell, there are at least three different code change layouts to the 70 LR tag.

Orig trim tag MIA. How to get the orig layout to redo.