Console Question

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The word around here is the repo top plates don't fit...Which really stinks cause I could use a set...

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depends on who you bought it from. i've heard pg classics fit very, very poorly because its not made 100% like the originals. if you use B/E/A's repo top plates, ive heard theirs are dead on and fit perfectly----ive yet to buy a set though. i need a set of 4speed plates for my 70 R/T console and im thinking of just buying originals and having them replated.....for the price of a new one, might wanna just go that route?

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depends on who you bought it from. i've heard pg classics fit very, very poorly because its not made 100% like the originals. if you use B/E/A's repo top plates, ive heard theirs are dead on and fit perfectly----ive yet to buy a set though. i need a set of 4speed plates for my 70 R/T console and im thinking of just buying originals and having them replated.....for the price of a new one, might wanna just go that route?

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My understanding is BEA sells PG's product...

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hmmm, news to me---great! will someone flippin reproduce parts correctly then

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Unfortunately I don't see any reason for it's an expensive part that needs to be right, I'm always bothered that someone would reproduce a part but not take the time to get it right...

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Ever see a reproduction Superbird nose rub strip?

Actually pitiful.

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.....Here is what I don't get... We're days away from 2008 not 1968.. With CAD/CAM, and todays's technology..

Why is it a company today can't satisfactorily produce a 40 year old part at LEAST as good as its 1968 counterpart?

What manufacturing processes existed in 1968 that allowed a company to produce a top plate for a console that today's technology just can't do?

Our IPods and Cell phones have more technology that all of NASA had when we went to the moon
in 1969

But we still can't make a simple plastic/metal part? We were able to do this 40 years ago?
But we can't today?

C'mon... don't give me this union crap
We had unions in the late 60's even more then
than now!!!

What gives... why is this so hard to do?

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I look at a firm like Orange County Choppers or even Boyd Coddington that has the ability to make a 3-D part in software and then transition it directly to a finished piece with a CNC machine tool. Yes, I don't expect every piece to be machined but why couldn't more accurate molds or dies be done this way? Especially with parts you can hold in your hand.

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There's a lot more to it.

First, you have to "reverse engineer" the part. That means taking an existing piece and building the tooling using that part. You'll have to take into consideration things like shrinkage of the plastic, type of plastic, where it will be injected, vented, cooled and what type of injection moulding machine is to be used on.

Now you have to build the tooling and its not cheap to do it right. Lots of hand work by skilled moldmakers went into building the original tooling, something that would be cost prohibitive today in a piece as large as a console. Modern machinery can't duplicate some of that work no matter what anybody says. Ask someone in the business if you don't believe it.

I just touched on a couple of the challenges involved. It comes down to cost. Tooling up to make a hundred thousand parts makes it resonable to make the tooling. Making a couple hundred parts makes you cut some corners to make money. Honestly, from what I've seen, very few plastic parts that size are injection molded anymore. The plastic companys I've been in are using thermal formed plastic for their larger parts.

You mention that Coddington and the clowns from OCC could make tooling. Keep in mind those are one off custom made parts. Doesn't fit? File it down until it does. Screw one up? No problem, make another... They're making parts, not hard tooling.

Building the right injection molding die might cost $100,000 or more to do it right. Given the limited market, it would be hard to justify that kind of cash outlay. If the repop costs $1000, how many people are going to buy one? I'm not going to, I'll look for a used original first.

You can do it cheaper, and that's exactly what is done with a lot of repops. You get something that looks like it and may be a good replacement, but it might not exactly look like it or fit like the old one.

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who is responsible for the return postage

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If purchased from B/E & A Restoration Parts, Inc. we would be ofcourse, it certainly wasn't the customers fault as long as the plate is one of the bad ones.

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Of course, the right thing to do. Another great business standing behind their quality and product.

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.....Here is what I don't get... We're days away from 2008 not 1968.. With CAD/CAM, and todays's technology..

Why is it a company today can't satisfactorily produce a 40 year old part at LEAST as good as its 1968 counterpart?

What manufacturing processes existed in 1968 that allowed a company to produce a top plate for a console that today's technology just can't do?

Our IPods and Cell phones have more technology that all of NASA had when we went to the moon
in 1969

But we still can't make a simple plastic/metal part? We were able to do this 40 years ago?
But we can't today?

C'mon... don't give me this union crap
We had unions in the late 60's even more then
than now!!!

What gives... why is this so hard to do?

---

I look at a firm like Orange County Choppers or even Boyd Coddington that has the ability to make a 3-D part in software and then transition it directly to a finished piece with a CNC machine tool. Yes, I don't expect every piece to be machined but why couldn't more accurate molds or dies be done this way? Especially with parts you can hold in your hand.

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There's a lot more to it.

First, you have to "reverse engineer" the part. That means taking an existing piece and building the tooling using that part. You'll have to take into consideration things like shrinkage of the plastic, type of plastic, where it will be injected, vented, cooled and what type of injection moulding machine is to be used on.

Now you have to build the tooling and its not cheap to do it right. Lots of hand work by skilled moldmakers went into building the original tooling, something that would be cost prohibitive today in a piece as large as a console. Modern machinery can't duplicate some of that work no matter what anybody says. Ask someone in the business if you don't believe it.

I just touched on a couple of the challenges involved. It comes down to cost. Tooling up to make a hundred thousand parts makes it resonable to make the tooling. Making a couple hundred parts makes you cut some corners to make money. Honestly, from what I've seen, very few plastic parts that size are injection molded anymore. The plastic companys I've been in are using thermal formed plastic for their larger parts.

You mention that Coddington and the clowns from OCC could make tooling. Keep in mind those are one off custom made parts. Doesn't fit? File it down until it does. Screw one up? No problem, make another... They're making parts, not hard tooling.

Building the right injection molding die might cost $100,000 or more to do it right. Given the limited market, it would be hard to justify that kind of cash outlay. If the repop costs $1000, how many people are going to buy one? I'm not going to, I'll look for a used original first.

You can do it cheaper, and that's exactly what is done with a lot of repops. You get something that looks like it and may be a good replacement, but it might not exactly look like it or fit like the old one.

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.....Here is what I don't get... We're days away from 2008 not 1968.. With CAD/CAM, and todays's technology..

Why is it a company today can't satisfactorily produce a 40 year old part at LEAST as good as its 1968 counterpart?

What manufacturing processes existed in 1968 that allowed a company to produce a top plate for a console that today's technology just can't do?

Our IPods and Cell phones have more technology that all of NASA had when we went to the moon
in 1969

But we still can't make a simple plastic/metal part? We were able to do this 40 years ago?
But we can't today?

C'mon... don't give me this union crap
We had unions in the late 60's even more then
than now!!!

What gives... why is this so hard to do?

---

I look at a firm like Orange County Choppers or even Boyd Coddington that has the ability to make a 3-D part in software and then transition it directly to a finished piece with a CNC machine tool. Yes, I don't expect every piece to be machined but why couldn't more accurate molds or dies be done this way? Especially with parts you can hold in your hand.

---

There's a lot more to it.

First, you have to "reverse engineer" the part. That means taking an existing piece and building the tooling using that part. You'll have to take into consideration things like shrinkage of the plastic, type of plastic, where it will be injected, vented, cooled and what type of injection moulding machine is to be used on.

Now you have to build the tooling and its not cheap to do it right. Lots of hand work by skilled moldmakers went into building the original tooling, something that would be cost prohibitive today in a piece as large as a console. Modern machinery can't duplicate some of that work no matter what anybody says. Ask someone in the business if you don't believe it.

I just touched on a couple of the challenges involved. It comes down to cost. Tooling up to make a hundred thousand parts makes it resonable to make the tooling. Making a couple hundred parts makes you cut some corners to make money. Honestly, from what I've seen, very few plastic parts that size are injection molded anymore. The plastic companys I've been in are using thermal formed plastic for their larger parts.

You mention that Coddington and the clowns from OCC could make tooling. Keep in mind those are one off custom made parts. Doesn't fit? File it down until it does. Screw one up? No problem, make another... They're making parts, not hard tooling.

Building the right injection molding die might cost $100,000 or more to do it right. Given the limited market, it would be hard to justify that kind of cash outlay. If the repop costs $1000, how many people are going to buy one? I'm not going to, I'll look for a used original first.

You can do it cheaper, and that's exactly what is done with a lot of repops. You get something that looks like it and may be a good replacement, but it might not exactly look like it or fit like the old one.

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This is some good explanation to the classic rant of 'why can't they make these parts better'.

I'll stick my neck out for bashing here - many of the folks that complain about the quality of a part don't realize all the subtleties of engineering an item for form, fit, and function (or finance!). As mentioned, reverse engineering isn't that straightforward.

Don't like a repop part? Research the situation and find out what it takes to reproduce the parts yourself. I've been down this road and it's very difficult and expensive to bring a part back from the dead -- for anythign but the popular or expensive cars it's just not cost-effective.

Restoration suppliers don't have the resources that GM, Ford and Chrysler did. I have a friend that worked for GM designing headlights and taillights. Usually took several people a full six months to do a single part. Wanna guess how many parts they throw away during testing due to unforseen design flaws? I work at a company that tests automotive parts at temps from -50 to 200°C -- I see the efforts spent bringing a part to market. Repop houses don't have the funds for what the OEMs do so they have to cut some corners.

I'm not saying vendors should knowingly sell junk. My point is that if a part is within 90% of original you should be happy -- happy that the part found its way to market and fits as well as it does...

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Very good points here. Reproduction parts, in general, are held to a higher standard. That's understandable since they are new parts.

Other factors are some of the original parts didn't fit that well and we try to copy the original part as close as humanly possible. Have you ever studied a bbody console assembly and see how all the plates line up together on an original? You can get them to fit nice with some tweaking, but why should you have to seeing it’s original?

Unfortunately all of us are in love with some of the worst built cars as it pertains to quality control. For example, when enough of the Goodmark Cuda fenders are installed you might hear the fenders are a little short on the top edge where it meets the top front edge of the door on both sides. I have 5 original Cudas and one being a super low mileage survivor with the same issue and not by a little bit.

Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not making excuses for the 4-speed top plates. Those were the same as a shortstop booting around a grounder until he finely sticks a fork in it. Many of them were awful, never should have hit the market and I’ll take total blame for the part.

I guess the lesson is two fold, as a manufacturer, we need to be diligent in the production and on the other hand, the customer needs to communicate to us any issues.




DO NOT BUY ANY 4-SPEED TOP PLATES FROM jiema8 ON EBAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The plates he has are the old ones that somehow walked out the back door along with several other parts when we made them. We will not be responsible for the stuff this guy is selling. That's why it's important to have proof of purchase.

We have long since been guarding our tooling and keeping track of production pieces so this doesn't happen again.